EV Digest 7052
Topics covered in this issue include:
1) Re: amps during normal driving
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2) Re: amps during normal driving - Zilla and other overspeed protection
by "Roland Wiench" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
3) RE: "Message truncated" problem
by "Roger Stockton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
4) Re: "Tree House" Controller
by "torich1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
5) Battery second string range implications ?
by "Steve Hawkins" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
6) Karmann Ghia Design - System voltage
by Deb Hollenback <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
7) Re: Battery second string range implications ?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
8) Re: Karmann Ghia Design - System voltage
by Bruce Williford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
9) Re: What is the typical amperage draw of the field for a sepex motor?
by "Zeke Yewdall" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
10) Re: 1st street ev smile/frown
by [EMAIL PROTECTED]
11) Re: What is the typical amperage draw of the field for a sepex motor?
by David Dymaxion <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
12) Re: "Tree House" Controller
by "torich1" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
13) Re: Karmann Ghia Design - System voltage
by Deb Hollenback <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
14) Re: Karmann Ghia Design - System voltage
by Deb Hollenback <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
15) Re: Karmann Ghia Design - System voltage
by Rich Long <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
16) Re: "Tree House" Controller
by "R. Matt Milliron" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
17) Fwd: [evco]: The Environmental Impacts of E-bikes in Chinese Cities
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
18) Fwd: [evco]: The Transition To Electric Bikes In China
by Lock Hughes <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
19) Re: oversized motor?
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
20) Re: EV1 Leasing Requirements ???
by "Peter VanDerWal" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
21) Re: EV1 Leasing Requirements ???
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
22) Re: Battery second string range implications ?
by "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
23) Re: Zilla inside picture (Hot, Cold and Broken)
by Eric Poulsen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
24) Re: Battery second string range implications ?
by Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
25) RE: oversized motor?
by "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
26) Re: Karmann Ghia Design - System voltage
by Bruce Williford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
27) Re: EV1 Leasing Requirements ???
by "Chelsea Sexton" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Dan,
The motor volts and motor amps are about the same at 150 amps. I have small
analog meters on these, not digital.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 9:39 AM
Subject: Re: amps during normal driving
> hi and thank you. very detailed account.
> but 6860 lbs! that's a heavy vehicle :)
>
> do you have a motor volt reading on for instance the 6000rpm, 45mph, 2nd
> gear, 150amp position?
> for your warp 9 hugely heavy vehicle : )
>
> Dan
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello Dan,
> >
> > I'am at the time driving with a Warp 9 that has a 192 volt rating at 199
> > amps continuous, in my 6860 lb EV with a 19.595:1 1st gear overall ratio
> > and
> > a 13.5:1 2nd gear ratio and final gear ratio of 5.57:1, a Zilla
> > controller
> > and 180 volt 260 AH battery pack.
> >
> > I always start out in 1st gear in acceleration. During normal
> > acceleration,
> > the motor ampere goes to about 200 amps while the battery amperes is at
> > 50
> > amps. If I press the accelerator to the floor, the motor ampere will
> > peak
> > at 300 amps at 6000 rpm which is 25 mph which will do this in less than
> > 10
> > seconds.
> >
> > The Zilla has the rpm limited to 6000 rpm, so even if I hdld the
> > acceleration at 6000 rpm, the motor ampere starts to drop to about 150
> > amps
> > and when I let back a bit on the accelerator, I can get it to drop to
> > about
> > 100 amps, battery ampere is about 30 amps.
> >
> > When I shift to 2nd gear at 25 mph, the motor amps may go to 500 amps
> > and
> > battery amps go to 125 amps. At 6000 rpm which is 45 mphs in 2nd gear,
> > the
> > motor ampere starts to drop back to about 150 amps.
> >
> > Shifting into 3rd at 6000 rpm at 45 mph, the ampere goes to about 600
> > amps
> > and starts to drop back at 50 mph at 4000 rpm to 250 motor amperes and
> > 180
> > battery amperes.
> >
> > Now with a GE 11 high torque motor, that has double the torque at a
> > given
> > rpm of a Warp 9, the the motor ampere at 70 mph is 180 amperes as well
> > as
> > the battery amps.
> >
> > Parking or backing up with a GE 11, the battery ampere reads only 3 to 5
> > amps!!!
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 7:00 AM
> > Subject: amps during normal driving
> >
> >
> >
> >> anyone have some data on a normal sedan conversion with for instance an
> >> ADC 8" motor.
> >> where the amps are at during casual acceleration. (following traffic)
> >> what gearing is used (if you start in second or first. if you gear it
> >> high and rely on high torque)
> >>
> >> weight of the car too
> >>
> >> thanks
> >> Dan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Hello Ed,
I have the Zilla program for about 5900 rpm maximum. Keeping it 100 rpm
under the design motor rpm. In final gear this would still be 90 mph for
me.
My EV has a second clutch, which is a in and out clutch to engaged the
accessory drives while the accelerator is release. This provides mechanical
drive to these unit, while the motor will not over speed at any rpm while it
is disengaged from the driveline by having the transmission in neutral.
If I want to do some accessory maintenance using this main motor drive, I
can set the rpm by adjusting another 5K pot which can be switch in series
with the existing 5k pot, which is my idle control if needed. The motor
will hold at any rpm without over speeding. It acts just like a engine
compression which also assist me to stop on icy roads without braking.
Roland
----- Original Message -----
From: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 10:06 AM
Subject: Re: amps during normal driving - Zilla and other overspeed
protection
> Roland -
> Does the Zilla protect against (series wound) overspeeding if the motor is
> freewheeling?
>
> I can't imagine spinning a series wound motor unloaded (I don't have the
> money to burn, to buy a new one) - but it would be nice to know that the
> controller was capable of it, "just in case" -
> Your vehicle is a stick-shift (as is mine, one day, in the
> bright-and-glorius future when its done....).
>
> Have you ever 'missed a gear' - thought it was in gear when it wasn't -
> and hit the juice? Would a Zilla protect the motor in such a scenario?
>
> My transmission has an 'out of gear' voltage reading that is weird. I'm
> going to try to use it to keep the controller from providing current to
> the motor in the event that the transmission is in neutral.
> I'll figure out how to use it...(I hope).
>
> Additionally, when the vehicle's clutch is depressed, I'm going to have a
> switch short the controllers' PB-6 (0-5000 ohm) control point (so a
> depressed clutch will make the controller 'think' that the pedal is in the
> fully 'up' position).
>
> Additional suggestions? (besides never depressing the clutch in the first
> place.....)
> Thanks -
>
>
> Ed Cooley
>
>
>
>
>
> Dan Frederiksen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Sent by: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> 07/23/2007 11:39
> Please respond to
> ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
>
>
> To
> ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
> cc
>
> Subject
> Re: amps during normal driving
>
>
>
>
>
>
> hi and thank you. very detailed account.
> but 6860 lbs! that's a heavy vehicle :)
>
> do you have a motor volt reading on for instance the 6000rpm, 45mph, 2nd
> gear, 150amp position?
> for your warp 9 hugely heavy vehicle : )
>
> Dan
>
> Roland Wiench wrote:
> > Hello Dan,
> >
> > I'am at the time driving with a Warp 9 that has a 192 volt rating at 199
>
> > amps continuous, in my 6860 lb EV with a 19.595:1 1st gear overall ratio
> and
> > a 13.5:1 2nd gear ratio and final gear ratio of 5.57:1, a Zilla
> controller
> > and 180 volt 260 AH battery pack.
> >
> > I always start out in 1st gear in acceleration. During normal
> acceleration,
> > the motor ampere goes to about 200 amps while the battery amperes is at
> 50
> > amps. If I press the accelerator to the floor, the motor ampere will
> peak
> > at 300 amps at 6000 rpm which is 25 mph which will do this in less than
> 10
> > seconds.
> >
> > The Zilla has the rpm limited to 6000 rpm, so even if I hdld the
> > acceleration at 6000 rpm, the motor ampere starts to drop to about 150
> amps
> > and when I let back a bit on the accelerator, I can get it to drop to
> about
> > 100 amps, battery ampere is about 30 amps.
> >
> > When I shift to 2nd gear at 25 mph, the motor amps may go to 500 amps
> and
> > battery amps go to 125 amps. At 6000 rpm which is 45 mphs in 2nd gear,
> the
> > motor ampere starts to drop back to about 150 amps.
> >
> > Shifting into 3rd at 6000 rpm at 45 mph, the ampere goes to about 600
> amps
> > and starts to drop back at 50 mph at 4000 rpm to 250 motor amperes and
> 180
> > battery amperes.
> >
> > Now with a GE 11 high torque motor, that has double the torque at a
> given
> > rpm of a Warp 9, the the motor ampere at 70 mph is 180 amperes as well
> as
> > the battery amps.
> >
> > Parking or backing up with a GE 11, the battery ampere reads only 3 to 5
>
> > amps!!!
> >
> > Roland
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
> > Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 7:00 AM
> > Subject: amps during normal driving
> >
> >
> >
> >> anyone have some data on a normal sedan conversion with for instance an
> >> ADC 8" motor.
> >> where the amps are at during casual acceleration. (following traffic)
> >> what gearing is used (if you start in second or first. if you gear it
> >> high and rely on high torque)
> >>
> >> weight of the car too
> >>
> >> thanks
> >> Dan
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Tim Humphrey wrote:
> I am using Outlook 2003 SP2 to read the EVDL.
>
> I used to have the problem with it showing just the
> truncation message. Something happened around the time frame
> that John says and now my version of Outlook no longer shows
> the truncation message. I assure you, it was not an action
> taken by me to change anything.
I am also using Outlook as my email client, but I didn't notice any
change in behaviour; most of the time I don't see the truncation
messages at all unless someone replies to one asking the sender to
resend in plain text. For wahtever reason, Outlook seems to display the
original text instead of the truncation message.
I'm pretty sure John is a staunch Mac user, and so he may have a mail
client that behaves differently (probably correctly ;^), and so displays
the truncation messages instead of the original text portion.
I don't suppose anyone has saved off one of the truncated posts from
months ago so that we might compare the header info between and old and
new truncated post to see if someone at SJSU might have tweaked some
setting without David being aware of it?
I thought John originally noted that has someone not responded to Dennis
quoting Dennis' message, that he wouldn't have known Dennis had posted -
this sounds different from the truncation issue and more like not
receiving some of the messages. I've certainly had this problem, where
I'll see post replying to messages that I haven't seen at all (yet?).
I'm pretty sure that if John saw a message from Dennis containing only a
truncation message, he'd either get on the phone to him or email a
response urging Dennis to repost rather than just sit there knowing
Dennis posted something and not having any idea what it might have been
;^>
Cheers,
Roger.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Baa Humm Buggg
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 10:01 AM
Subject: RE: "Tree House" Controller
>Have you made a website with the circuit design so others can learn from
it? or even use it
No. That's why I went to (and paid to go to) a university for
five or six years, and why I have (and paid for) at least fifty
or maybe a hundred books on electrical and electronic design.
Good electronics design takes more than a cookie-cutter approach.
In most fields, you can get away with bad electronic design.
When the powers get high (or when frequencies get high - the
same thing happens there), you really need a fundamental
understanding that goes deeper than a 'cookie cutter' design
possibly can.
-Dale
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition.
Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database: 269.10.14/912 - Release Date: 7/22/2007
7:02 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Does anyone have a good handle on the implications of adding a second
string?
I have a 180v string that weighs 1650 lbs. The car has a total weight of
5000lbs and an 80 mile range. If I add second parallel string and increase
the weight by 1650lbs, what additional range would I be expected to achieve?
Mathematician's input welcomed.
Thanks,
Steve
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Beware - first time poster!
First, thank you to Victor, Lee, Roland, Peter, Mike et al for the time
you spend sharing your experience with the barely initiated. Reading
these emails has been a major source of education for me.
I would like to put an order in for a Zilla 1K controller - with the
very long lead times, it seems like ordering sooner would be better
than later. What I am trying to figure out is my optimal system
voltage. Is it simply a matter of how many batteries I can wedge in?
My goal is to have a zippy Karmann Ghia. I won't race, but cannot
abide by an auto that doesn't GO! Ghia examples in EValbum have system
voltages ranging from 240V to 96V. I expect to use AGM batteries -
Yellow Tops probably. As for a motor, perhaps a Warp 9" (if it will
fit). I haven't bought a donor yet, but intend to use the standard VW
4 speed drive train.
Thank you for any input!
____________________________________________________________________________________
Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's
Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when.
http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Steve,
You better get a bigger motor and control, because the
one that's in there won't last long with that much
weight. I drove my TEVan with 500lbs of play sand for
the horse-shoe pit along with a bunch of other items
for a total extra weight of 800lbs. It was dragging
with that much extra weight, especially on the hills.
The motor would also overheat on warm summer days for
trips over 5 miles.
Rod
--- Steve Hawkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone have a good handle on the implications
> of adding a second
> string?
>
> I have a 180v string that weighs 1650 lbs. The car
> has a total weight of
> 5000lbs and an 80 mile range. If I add second
> parallel string and increase
> the weight by 1650lbs, what additional range would I
> be expected to achieve?
>
> Mathematician's input welcomed.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Deb, I am in the final stages of a garden variety Ghia conversion. 15
trojan T875s fit in with room for a few more. 120 volts and a 500 amp
Curtis zip along well compared to a stock '68 VW but so does a fourteen
year-old on a bicycle. I'll leave the battery/voltage/ performance
issues for some of the experts. Be sure to pay extra for a good
quality donor. I have spent way to much time and money on what I
thought was a cheap Ghia. 18 plus months and still working on the
restoration versus 2 months of weekends for the electric conversion.
Ghia parts are cheap and available but they do add up. I wish that I
would have been wise enough to listen before I bought my junker.
Have fun!
Bruce
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Here's the specs from the motor plate.
Model 5BT2376C15
96V 220A
1000RPM Shunt WDG
1HR rating BV
No. JM8-580-KM
Z
On 7/23/07, Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Well.... I'll let you know the field resistance, and we can figure out
whether this is really a SepEx motor, or a shunt motor........ in EE
school, they don't really distinguish between them (we covered DC
motors for about one week).
And yes, it does have some sort of model number on it too, which I'll get.
Zeke
On 7/23/07, Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Hey Rod,
>
> Back on June 6, Zeke said:
>
> > > FYI, the reason I went through the trouble to find
> a
> > > used shunt motor
> > > was that I need regenerative brakes.
>
> >Jeff said:
> > Now you say shunt motor whereas before you said
> sepex.
> > Sepex motors generally have lower voltage field
> > windings than shunt motors which infer the field
> > voltage will be equal to the nameplate voltage.
> With
> > a shunt motor, it will be difficult to emulate
> series
> > motor performance, namely starting torque.
>
> A field resistance would tell us a lot.
>
> Jeff
>
>
> --- Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > Zeke,
> > I forgot to mention in my earlier post that maximum
> > current in the field was 18-20 amps, but this was
> > controlled via PWM of the control. In other words,
> > if
> > you have a nameplate voltage of 96 Volts you
> > wouldn't
> > directly connect 96V to the field. The control will
> > regulate the PWM duty cycle to the field to regulate
> > less than 20Amps. On the Dodge TEVan, system
> > voltage
> > was 180V nominal, 205Vdc after a full charge.
> > Looking at the software for the TEVan, Maximum field
> > PWM duty cycle is Hex #$60 (96 Decimal). Since the
> > PWM is 8 bit we have (96/255)*205Volts = 77 volts is
> > the maximum the field would ever see. I suspect on
> > the 96V sepex motor you would not see more than 36
> > Volts applied to the field.
> > Rod
> > --- Jeff Major <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > Hey Zeke,
> > >
> > > This was a shunt motor, wasn't it? If so, the
> > field
> > > would have been wound for 96 volts. Probably just
> > a
> > > few amps (or less) at 96 volts. You need to take
> > > the
> > > field resistance.
> > >
> > > Jeff
> > >
> > >
> > > --- Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > >
> > > > Just wondering if I can measure field current
> > with
> > > > the 20A range on my
> > > > DMM, or if I need a bigger ammeter. It's just
> > > > sitting on the table
> > > > right now, and I don't have any of the final
> > > > instrumentation yet, just
> > > > playing around testing it.
> > > >
> > > > It's a 96 volt 20HP (cont) GE Sepex motor. Big
> > > > 300lb beast of a motor.
> > > >
> > > > Z
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> > > Pinpoint customers who are looking for what you
> > > sell.
> > > http://searchmarketing.yahoo.com/
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
> Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search
> that gives answers, not web links.
> http://mobile.yahoo.com/mobileweb/onesearch?refer=1ONXIC
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
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* ---REMAINDER OF MESSAGE TRUNCATED--- *
* This post contains a forbidden message format *
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--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Just use your ohmmeter to measure the resistance of the field, and use I = V/R
to figure out the current.
My sepex Kostov is about 1 ohm on the field. With a 12 Volt battery it draws
about 10 amps on the field and about 20 amps on the armature.
Yes, your meter might be rated for 20 amps, but a clamp on ammeter that goes
higher would be better, if nothing else it saves alot of time.
----- Original Message ----
From: Zeke Yewdall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Sent: Sunday, July 22, 2007 7:32:32 PM
Subject: What is the typical amperage draw of the field for a sepex motor?
Just wondering if I can measure field current with the 20A range on my
DMM, or if I need a bigger ammeter. It's just sitting on the table
right now, and I don't have any of the final instrumentation yet, just
playing around testing it.
It's a 96 volt 20HP (cont) GE Sepex motor. Big 300lb beast of a motor.
Z
____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the
Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
AMEN
----- Original Message -----
From: "Dan Frederiksen" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 11:21 AM
Subject: Re: "Tree House" Controller
Do you think they assemble curtis controllers in bunny suits in a clean
room somewhere at an NSA facility or do you think unskilled labor puts
them together, cookie cutter style.
And I'm not sure how you concluded that because you have an education you
don't help others. I have a degree and I help others for free every day.
I simply don't believe that controller assembly is a magical artisan task
that must be handed down in years of training in a japanese dojo.
And if it was so difficult what's the harm in sharing the design with such
a warning...
Dan
Dale Ulan write:
Have you made a website with the circuit design so others can learn from
it? or even use it
No. That's why I went to (and paid to go to) a university for
five or six years, and why I have (and paid for) at least fifty
or maybe a hundred books on electrical and electronic design.
Good electronics design takes more than a cookie-cutter approach.
In most fields, you can get away with bad electronic design.
When the powers get high (or when frequencies get high - the
same thing happens there), you really need a fundamental
understanding that goes deeper than a 'cookie cutter' design
possibly can.
-Dale
--
No virus found in this incoming message.
Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.5.476 / Virus Database:
269.10.14/912 - Release Date: 7/22/2007 7:02 PM
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Thanks Bruce for the valuable battery sizing and donor info!
I neglected to include weight stats - a 70ish Ghia weighs close to 1900
lbs curb weight. I do not have GVW - anyone else know? I'm guessing
the ICE components removed will be around 600 lbs. The main occupants
of the vehicle will be myself and my lab/boxer - combined weight of
200lbs. I would like to add a passenger along with said pup
occasionally - with the pup on a flat bed I envision to go over the
batteries that will reside in the back seat.
____________________________________________________________________________________
Choose the right car based on your needs. Check out Yahoo! Autos new Car
Finder tool.
http://autos.yahoo.com/carfinder/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Oh and Bruce, would you mind sharing where you picked up your adapter?
And what motor you are using? Any other pointers for someone just
entering the land of Ghia?
Thanks!
--- Bruce Williford <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Deb, I am in the final stages of a garden variety Ghia conversion.
> 15
> trojan T875s fit in with room for a few more. 120 volts and a 500
> amp
> Curtis zip along well compared to a stock '68 VW but so does a
> fourteen
> year-old on a bicycle. I'll leave the battery/voltage/ performance
>
> issues for some of the experts. Be sure to pay extra for a good
> quality donor. I have spent way to much time and money on what I
> thought was a cheap Ghia. 18 plus months and still working on the
> restoration versus 2 months of weekends for the electric conversion.
>
> Ghia parts are cheap and available but they do add up. I wish that I
>
> would have been wise enough to listen before I bought my junker.
>
> Have fun!
>
> Bruce
>
>
____________________________________________________________________________________
Park yourself in front of a world of choices in alternative vehicles. Visit the
Yahoo! Auto Green Center.
http://autos.yahoo.com/green_center/
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
On Mon, 2007-07-23 at 13:19 -0700, Deb Hollenback wrote:
> What I am trying to figure out is my optimal system
> voltage. Is it simply a matter of how many batteries I can wedge in?
>
> My goal is to have a zippy Karmann Ghia. I won't race, but cannot
> abide by an auto that doesn't GO! Ghia examples in EValbum have system
> voltages ranging from 240V to 96V. I expect to use AGM batteries -
> Yellow Tops probably. As for a motor, perhaps a Warp 9" (if it will
> fit). I haven't bought a donor yet, but intend to use the standard VW
> 4 speed drive train.
>
> Thank you for any input!
>
>
>
Deb,
I'm 3/4 of the way done with a Karmann Ghia conversion. I'm going with
120v of Deka AGMs, Warp9 motor, standard VW transmission with no clutch.
I bought my donor on ebay. It was a renovation project that the
previous owners could not quite complete. So much of the body work was
done and I just need to do the finishing details.
Rich
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Looks like Dan Frederiksen got a new email address. Another kill
filter to go please.
On Mon, 23 Jul 2007 13:49:55 -0400, you wrote:
>Baa Humm Buggg
>
>----- Original Message -----
>From: "Dale Ulan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>To: <ev@listproc.sjsu.edu>
>Sent: Monday, July 23, 2007 10:01 AM
>Subject: RE: "Tree House" Controller
>
>
>> >Have you made a website with the circuit design so others can learn from
>>>it? or even use it
>>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Abstract
> Electric bikes have captured a large share of trips in many Chinese
> cities. They provide high levels of mobility and use little energy,
> two
> things that Chinese cities need to optimize. However, these benefits
> come at a cost, particularly emissions from primarily coal power
> plants
> and increased lead waste from battery use. Chinese policy makers are
> struggling with developing appropriate policy that maximizes modal
> options and mobility and minimizes environmental
> impacts. Electric bikes use very little electricity and, as a result,
> emit low levels of pollution per vehicle (passenger) kilometer
> traveled, even compared to fully occupied buses. The most problematic
> issue with electric bikes is the use of lead acid batteries that have
> high lead loss rates during the production, manufacturing and
> recycling
> processes. Most other motorized modes also use lead acid batteries,
> but
> their rate of use is lower and thus they have lower lead emission
> rates
> per kilometer. This research investigates and quantifies the
> environmental implications of electric bike use in China;
> particularly
> energy use, air pollution, solid waste and water use. A framework for
> policy analysis is presented and potential regulatory mechanisms are
> discussed.
>
> This investigation can inform policy by quantifying environmental
> impacts so that problematic parts of the life cycle can be addressed,
> rather than banning electric bikes all together.
>
>
http://www.its.berkeley.edu/publications/UCB/2007/VWP/UCB-ITS-VWP-2007-2.pdf
>
> or tinyURL here:
> http://tinyurl.com/yvv43k
>
> tks
>
> Lock
> Toronto
Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the
boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail at http://mrd.mail.yahoo.com/try_beta?.intl=ca
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Abstract
> Annual electric bike (e-bike) sales in China grew from 40,000 in 1998
> to 10 million in 2005. This rapid transition from human-powered
> bicycles and gasoline-powered scooters to an all-electric
> vehicle/fuel
> technology system is special in the evolution of transportation
> technology and, thus far, unique to China.
>
> We examine how and why e-bikes developed so quickly in China with
> particular focus on the key technical, economic, and political
> factors
> involved. This case study provides important insights to policy
> makers in China and abroad on how timely regulatory policy can change
> the purchase choice of millions and create a new mode of
> transportation. These lessons are especially important to China as it
> embarks on a large-scale transition to personal vehicles, but also to
> other countries seeking more sustainable forms of transportation.
>
> Full study here:
> http://www.ce.berkeley.edu/~cherry/Publications/EVS22.pdf
>
> Tks
>
> Lock
> Alive, and Kickin', in TO
> human-electric hybrid pedestrian
Ask a question on any topic and get answers from real people. Go to
Yahoo! Answers and share what you know at http://ca.answers.yahoo.com
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Well, it is a little bigger than is required...for moderate driving.
A fork lift motor won't be much smaller and you'd need a completely
different controller.
So, if the AC42 motor will fit, then I'd say go for it.
Actually, if you don't mind some extra work, this motor is large enough
that you can get away with a single speed reduction and skip the
transmission, clutch, etc. However, you'd need some custom parts to make
that work.
> Hi
> I am at the point of machining an adaptor plate for my ac42
> [solectria] thats intended to inhabit a suzuki alto.
> (Electro automotive dont have a plate and I wont be shipping a
> transmission transatlantic).
> My question - have I gone and bought a motor way too big for the job?
> The ac42 is 60kg, 100 horsepower max and 28horses continuous.
> My car-mechanic friend took one look at it and started to giggle.
> The thing will barely fit in the engine compartment, I may actually
> have to slice out some
> bit to get it to fit. Weight is about the same, until I add ~150kg
> of battery, controller, etc.
> He [my mech. friend] recommended using a forklift motor, anyone have
> relevant advice?
>
>
>
> Jeremy Rutman
> Technion Physics Dep't
> Haifa 32000
> Israel
> 972 4 8293669
>
>
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> Remember, the goal was to have the project flop. (;-p
>
>> "It was available only at two locations in the
>> entire world.
> My understanding was that it was two _states_. CA was
> one, (due to the CARB mandate. I think NY was the
> other. In any event, the San Juan Cap.,
Only southern California actually, and two or three cities in Arizona
(Phoenix and Tucson IIRC)
>> It was not for sale, you could only lease it.
> True. 459-499 per mo.
>>
>> An income over $100,000 was required to qualify for
>> a lease.
> Not surprising, (see "lease", above).
Well I find it "surprising". The "Lease" price included insurance and all
scheduled maintenance. I know many people who earn $30,000 or less per
year and spend that much a month on their vehicle.
Heck, if you are under 25 you'll spend $200 a month on insurance alone for
a new car.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
" The "Lease" price included insurance and all
scheduled maintenance. "
What?!?! :0 The lease price included insurance???
On 7/23/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Remember, the goal was to have the project flop. (;-p
>
>> "It was available only at two locations in the
>> entire world.
> My understanding was that it was two _states_. CA was
> one, (due to the CARB mandate. I think NY was the
> other. In any event, the San Juan Cap.,
Only southern California actually, and two or three cities in Arizona
(Phoenix and Tucson IIRC)
>> It was not for sale, you could only lease it.
> True. 459-499 per mo.
>>
>> An income over $100,000 was required to qualify for
>> a lease.
> Not surprising, (see "lease", above).
Well I find it "surprising". The "Lease" price included insurance and all
scheduled maintenance. I know many people who earn $30,000 or less per
year and spend that much a month on their vehicle.
Heck, if you are under 25 you'll spend $200 a month on insurance alone for
a new car.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
I don't think you provide enough info for someone to calculate something.
But this is a method that (I think) works. Divide your range by each
battery. Therefore each battery will provide x number of miles. So
then you can conclude that if you add x number of batteries, the total
increase of range will be whatever.
I also know some sort of calculation that is a rule of thumb. I forgot
it though. It's something about taking the battery weight and dividing
it by something, and then multiplying it by the car's mpg. (I don't
know if it refers to real life mpg, or the old mpg ratings from the
EPA that hypermilers would dream of.)
On 7/23/07, Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
Steve,
You better get a bigger motor and control, because the
one that's in there won't last long with that much
weight. I drove my TEVan with 500lbs of play sand for
the horse-shoe pit along with a bunch of other items
for a total extra weight of 800lbs. It was dragging
with that much extra weight, especially on the hills.
The motor would also overheat on warm summer days for
trips over 5 miles.
Rod
--- Steve Hawkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Does anyone have a good handle on the implications
> of adding a second
> string?
>
> I have a 180v string that weighs 1650 lbs. The car
> has a total weight of
> 5000lbs and an 80 mile range. If I add second
> parallel string and increase
> the weight by 1650lbs, what additional range would I
> be expected to achieve?
>
> Mathematician's input welcomed.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Cor van de Water wrote:
I do not know if it was posted already,
I like how the aluminum heatsink itself actually melted a little bit =)
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
Joseph,
Sorry my response was somewhat cryptic.
I worked on the Dodge TEVan while at GE from 1993-1996
and drove this vehicle for 2.5 years while there.
I developed the charging program for NiCd and NiFe
batteries and qualified most of the motor
controls/chargers before they shipped to Chrysler.
I also owned a TEVan that I bought from Mike Chancey
(the EValbum guy) and drove this for 2 years as a
primary vehicle. My response to the paralleling of
batteries was based on the already bloated weight of
the TEVan at 5,000lbs. Adding an additional 1600lbs
of batteries is more than this control and motor can
handle based on my engineering background with this
vehicle. We are talking about a Dodge Caravan that
would weigh 6600 lbs and I have no idea where that
many batteries would fit. It has 6 battery trays that
are suspended under the frame and take up most of the
area under the vehicle (the inside of the van looked
like a normal Caravan). I'm guessing a parallel pack
would take up all of the passenger and cargo space
INSIDE the van. If we replaced ALL of the batteries
with something like a LI-ION pack at half the weight
(so the van would now be 4300 lbs) you may have a
minivan with decent performance and 300+ mile range.
But doubling the existing NiCd pack is not practical.
Rod
--- "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't think you provide enough info for someone to
> calculate something.
>
> But this is a method that (I think) works. Divide
> your range by each
> battery. Therefore each battery will provide x
> number of miles. So
> then you can conclude that if you add x number of
> batteries, the total
> increase of range will be whatever.
>
> I also know some sort of calculation that is a rule
> of thumb. I forgot
> it though. It's something about taking the battery
> weight and dividing
> it by something, and then multiplying it by the
> car's mpg. (I don't
> know if it refers to real life mpg, or the old mpg
> ratings from the
> EPA that hypermilers would dream of.)
>
> On 7/23/07, Rod Hower <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> wrote:
> > Steve,
> > You better get a bigger motor and control, because
> the
> > one that's in there won't last long with that much
> > weight. I drove my TEVan with 500lbs of play sand
> for
> > the horse-shoe pit along with a bunch of other
> items
> > for a total extra weight of 800lbs. It was
> dragging
> > with that much extra weight, especially on the
> hills.
> > The motor would also overheat on warm summer days
> for
> > trips over 5 miles.
> > Rod
> > --- Steve Hawkins <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > > Does anyone have a good handle on the
> implications
> > > of adding a second
> > > string?
> > >
> > > I have a 180v string that weighs 1650 lbs. The
> car
> > > has a total weight of
> > > 5000lbs and an 80 mile range. If I add second
> > > parallel string and increase
> > > the weight by 1650lbs, what additional range
> would I
> > > be expected to achieve?
> > >
> > > Mathematician's input welcomed.
> > >
> > > Thanks,
> > >
> > > Steve
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
> He [my mech. friend] recommended using a forklift motor, anyone have
> relevant advice?
AC42 should be plenty powerful. AC offers enough advantages,
especially if you have the motor and controller already.
I'd go with it, myself. I would not go with a DC brushed
motor (forklift motor) if I had a choice of an AC that
would fit (and at a reasonable price - or already owned).
Another option would be to try to trade for an AC24
which would be a nicer fit but would not go quite as
quickly.
With Solectria controllers, make sure you keep the batteries
and connections in good shape, and don't exceed the voltage
rating of the controller, even when in regeneration mode.
Some of the Solectria controllers were pretty sensitive.
-Dale
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
1969 Ghia listed at 1918 lbs. GVW 2645 lbs.
My adapter, ADC 9 motor , and Curtis 1231 are third or fourth hand.
If the stories are correct this vehicle (originally from a
Safari/Thing) are from a student project at a university in San Diego,
Ca. UCSD or CSUSD. I believe the adapter was custom machined.
Here is a owners manuel for a 1069 Ghia:
http://www.type-14.com/om69.htm
Bruce
--- End Message ---
--- Begin Message ---
(Apologies in advance for the length, but yall asked- this *is* the
Readers Digest version!)
Much of this is based on fact, but like much of this story, has evolved over
time.
The EV1 was only leased, as is now legend. Originally, the vehicle was
leased a la carte- the charger had to be leased or purchased separately. In
the Spring of 1997, we packaged them together, and re-priced both at
$399/mo+tax (prices varied a bit depending on available incentives- charger
install extra in all cases.) Gen II was $424/mo for PbA, and $499/mo for
NiMH- again, some variation by county and incentives. The EV1 came with a
bumper-to-bumper warranty and all maintenance included- it did NOT include
insurance at any time. We launched the program in two states- CA (North LA-
San Diego) and AZ (Phoenix and Tucson areas) through roughly 24 initial
Saturn retailers. Over the next year, we added Sacramento and San Francisco
areas, and ended up with a total of about 35 retailers. In order to lease
the vehicle initially, you had to live within 75 miles of one of those
retailers. We also had small pilot programs in other areas- Atlanta, GA, and
Broward County, FL, among them, where we placed the cars through utility
partners.
Now to the big interview
It should be understood that the process changed
a bit over time, adulterated more by the Specialists than GM, as we grew to
know what was really important to learn from a customer as part of the lease
process. But originally, there was a Needs Analysis form that would have
been completed either in the first meeting w the Specialist, on the phone,
or with a Saturn Sales Consultant and faxed to one of us. It was designed
(honestly) not so much as a test as a sincere effort to make sure the car
would work for the customer. Recall that the original Gen I EV1 had,
realistically, 50-70 miles of range- if someone had an 80-mile commute, we
wanted to know that up front. Same thing with apartment dwellers (for
charger installs) etc. Some of these things werent deal-breakers, but we
did need to know about them so they could be managed. Here are the exact
questions from the now-infamous Needs Analysis:
1) What kind of driving will you do with the EV1?
2) How many total miles a day will you drive with the EV1?
3) Is this an additional car or a replacement car?
4) How many cars are in your household?
5) Where do you normally park your vehicle?
6) What type of residence is your home (house, condo, apt., etc?)
7) Do you own or rent your home?
8) (If customers owns) How old is your home? Do you have a garage?
9) (If customer rents) When does your lease expire?
10) Has the electrical service in your home ever been upgraded?
11) Approximately how many miles is your residence from the closest Saturn
facility?
12) Do you plan on moving in the near future?
At the bottom of this form was standard contact info questions- name,
address, phone, etc. In response to those whod ask about this huge test
that theyd heard about- especially thanks to Jay Leno and the other late
night hosts, Id remind people (in my area) that Im the one that
administered it- any of you who know me (or have seen the film) can guess
what a daunting experience that must have been! ;o)
Other than that, there was the same standard GMAC credit application that
youd have to fill out to lease or buy any car. There was no official
minimum income, etc., though GMAC certainly has debt-to-income ratio
formulas that they employ and such. We did have some experiences with people
who had no credit because theyd only paid cash and other odd situations,
but I can say from experience that we were able to work most of those
idiosyncratic situations, and had a very high approval rating overall.
So that was the process as initially designed. Wasnt meant to be arduous
(though I fully realize that it became so for many), and we honed it as we
went along to try to speed things along. Over time, it wasnt that process
that was the bottleneck so much as getting cars as we started to run low
(pretty much any time after the first year). The later in the program we
got, the fewer cars we had, and the more persistent both the customers and
the Specialists had to be to get them. For those that havent read Peter
Hortons account of trying to get one, its a good narrative of the
challenge (Peter Buys An Electric Car LA Times Magazine, June 8, 2003). I
really did have to write a case statement for Mel Gibson- though I was
spared his birthmarks and the rest
Hope that helps,
chelsea
From: "Joseph T. " <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Reply-To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
To: ev@listproc.sjsu.edu
Subject: Re: EV1 Leasing Requirements ???
Date: Mon, 23 Jul 2007 21:30:25 -0400
" The "Lease" price included insurance and all
scheduled maintenance. "
What?!?! :0 The lease price included insurance???
On 7/23/07, Peter VanDerWal <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Remember, the goal was to have the project flop. (;-p
>
>> "It was available only at two locations in the
>> entire world.
> My understanding was that it was two _states_. CA was
> one, (due to the CARB mandate. I think NY was the
> other. In any event, the San Juan Cap.,
Only southern California actually, and two or three cities in Arizona
(Phoenix and Tucson IIRC)
>> It was not for sale, you could only lease it.
> True. 459-499 per mo.
>>
>> An income over $100,000 was required to qualify for
>> a lease.
> Not surprising, (see "lease", above).
Well I find it "surprising". The "Lease" price included insurance and all
scheduled maintenance. I know many people who earn $30,000 or less per
year and spend that much a month on their vehicle.
Heck, if you are under 25 you'll spend $200 a month on insurance alone for
a new car.
--
If you send email to me, or the EVDL, that has > 4 lines of legalistic
junk at the end; then you are specifically authorizing me to do whatever I
wish with the message. By posting the message you agree that your long
legalistic signature is void.
--- End Message ---
