________________________________ From: John Clark <johnkcl...@gmail.com> To: everything-list@googlegroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 3, 2013 10:03 AM Subject: Re: When will a computer pass the Turing Test?
On Tue, Sep 3, 2013 at 12:27 PM, Chris de Morsella <cdemorse...@yahoo.com> wrote: I think your position is ridiculous. Evolution has clearly invested a lot of energy into “free will” >>Can not comment, don't know what ASCII sequence "free will" means. You are merely being argumentative here. You certainly do have a very clear idea of the sensations you experience within your brain that we describe as experiencing "free will" -- to state that the only meaning this has to you is as a series of ASCII symbols strung together is hiding behind the skirt of semantics/ > “self-awareness”, and other qualia that characterize conscious existence. >>Well, I have self awareness and other qualia, so I know that Evolution did it >>at least once, and maybe I'm not the only one, maybe it did it billions of >>times. But I also know that all Evolution can see is behavior and it can't >>see those qualities any better than we can see self awareness in others. >>Therefore I conclude that self awareness and other qualia MUST BE a byproduct >>of intelligent behavior. So I take it therefore that you accept that we have "self awareness".. a clear sense of "self", but that "free will" is just ASCII characters strung together? Not very consistent of you. Evolution did not go through all the trouble and to expend all the energy our species expends on creating this sensation within ourselves – whether it is actually real or an elaborate (and evolutionarily costly adaptation) to carefully create this deeply layered and highly convincing illusion of free will within us – for no reason at all. >>If free will were a illusion I would have no problem with it whatsoever! >>Illusions are a perfectly a legitimate phenomena worthy of study, but "free >>will" is not nearly as interesting because "free will" is just a noise made >>by the mouth. So if "free will" is an illusion it is therefore necessarily mere noise in your estimation of things; a position that you have left unsupported by any evidence that the brain would go through all the trouble of producing the illusion just to make noise.. and that the evolutionary cost of maintaining this elaborate ruse is essentially non-existent. That it is a free by product of something else that is going on that is necessary. I assume that this is what you will say, but you give no evidence to justify this position. Evolution is economical and seeks to maximize fitness; which means you need to convincingly show how free will necessarily arises as a by-product of some other necessary brain function or that it costs the brain -- and the individual now burdened with "free will" -- nothing in terms of evolutionary fitness. > The brain consumes a lot of energy >>And apparently Evolution decided that > the increased energy usage was worth it because the resulting intelligent > behavior brought more genes into the next generation than a brain that used > less energy and was therefore less intelligent. And consciousness just went > along for the ride. I take it that your position is that free will and self awareness are necessary by-products of intelligence which have no meaning or function and should be considered to be noise? But you cannot show how these are necessary by products of intelligence or that they do not impose any extra evolutionary expense on the individuals in which they manifest. You do not answer the questions why? or how? I do not think that these experiences we all experience -- including yourself even if you like to state that free will is just a string of ASCII characters to you -- can be generated within our brains at no extra cost -- both the direct costs of all the brain activity required in order to generate it and all the ancillary costs for the survival of the individuals who have it and who now must wrestle with "self awareness", "personal death -- i.e. our own mortality", and "free will" You have failed to demonstrate how all these qualia arise in the brain at no extra cost -- as you assert -- and that they impose no direct and ancillary evolutionary costs on the individual. I doubt you can demonstrate this; just as I doubt your position is correct. But I would like to see you demonstrate how the experience of "self awareness" and "free will" are by-products of the evolution of intelligence and how they impose zero evolutionary expense (you state that they provide zero benefits -- so therefore you burden yourself with showing how they impose zero evolutionary cost) -Chris John K Clark -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/groups/opt_out. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "Everything List" group. 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