On 15 Feb 2014, at 19:30, John Clark wrote:
On Wed, Feb 12, 2014 at 1:21 PM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
> The 3-1 view is the 3p view on the 1p views, note the plural,
after the duplication.
That is far more convoluted than it need to be, it's really not all
that complicated. After the duplication both the Washington Man and
the Moscow Man agree that they were both the Helsinki Man at one time.
OK.
A third party observer would also agree with this. After the
duplication both the Washington Man and the Moscow Man agree that
they are no longer each other. A third party observer would agree
with this too. So unlike Einstein's thought experiments in this one
everybody involved is in agreement about everything that happened,
which is why we can learn nothing from it.
Not at all. The 3P definition of 3p and 1p allows to agree on some 3p
accounts of the whole derivation, that is why we can do science here.
it is the same in Einstein relativity. the "1p" discourse have to be
eliminated from the scientific account, except as data, or subject
matter.
In our case, indeed everybody agrees on the FPI (except you, for still
quite unclear reason).
> A typical observation will be "the diary of the guy in W assess
that he is in W, and (perhaps) that he could not have predicted that,
That is incorrect, the Helsinki Man could have successfully
predicted that the Washington diary will be written by the guy in
Washington.
That is correct, but is not answering the question, which is asked to
the H man, at a moment he has not yet been copy. At that moment,
predicting "that the Washington diary will be written by the guy in
Washington" is tautological, and half of a 3-1 description, but the
question is about the unique 1-1 = 1-description(s).
You make your 3-move again.
In Helsinki you know that P(my experience will be the experience of
seeing a unique city) = 1. But if you choose in advance one city, that
choice will be refuted by the doppelganger.
> and that the diary of the guy in M assess that he is in M and
(perhaps) that he could not have predicted that".
And the Helsinki Man could have successfully predicted that the
Moscow diary will be written by the guy in Moscow.
Which is the other half of the 3-1 description. But that was not asked
to the H-man. the question asked was about his first person
experience, and as just said above, by comp, it can only been unique.
But of course if you're trying to ascertain the nature of personal
identity none of this matters, it doesn't matter if the predictions
were correct or not.
We are not trying to ascertain the nature of personal identity at all.
I can be amnesic on who I am for example. the question is about the
expectation of some unique 1p experience I will live soon. By comp I
know that it must be W, or M, but not both, nor none.
> So the prediction you have often made, and never clearly
retracted, that you will find yourself in W and M, is a correct
prediction for the 3-1 view,
Yes, after it was all over and the smoke had cleared away a third
party observer will say that John Clark is in Moscow and John Clark
is in Washington.
Correct. That's the 3-1 view.
> but that is not what is asked in Helsinki, which concerns the 1-
views, or as I said the 1-1-views (the 1-view on the 1-view).
If that is the question then the only answer the Helsinki Man can
give is "my first person view is of Helsinki".
No. that's the correct answer to "what do you feel right now", but the
question is what could you feel after pressing the button. As you know
that by comp you don't die, and as you know that P(I will see only one
city) is 1, you know with certainty that you, in your future 1-view
sense, will see W, or M, and not both, and that you cannot predict
which one, without being refuted by the doppelganger, so you can only
say "W or M", with a non constructive "or". That's the FPI.
Bruno
John K Clark
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