On 11 Jun 2014, at 01:03, LizR wrote:
On 11 June 2014 04:35, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be> wrote:
On 09 Jun 2014, at 19:13, spudboy100 via Everything List wrote:
Ok good point
Justice and revenge are human inventions
Oooooh... That looks like a human belief.
I may have been too hasty. They're almost certainly evolutionary
inventions.
I am afraid that the justice problem haunts many Löbian machines and
Löbian gods (Non Turing effective set of beliefs, or numbers).
Please elaborate!
I am probably a platonist. I tend to believe more in truth, beauty,
justice, goodness, than in electron, balls, bodies, humans, stars and
galaxies.
Notion like truth, justice, beauty... are Pythagorean virtues, and
this means that they obey the law of the contrary effect: []x -> ~x.
This means that we cannot define any of them, and even trying can make
us inconsistent, or will makes us more powerful (depending on the way
we define some of them). Like a taoist said: if we define beauty, we
get the ugly.
It is theological, really. (You know that I take theology as the
fundamental science). I believe more in persons and angels, than in
atoms and energy.
Justice, as its name indicates, is a little cousin of truth. It is
when 1 EURO + 1 EURO = 2 EURO, somehow. Not much more than that. Of course you
need that 1 + 1 = 2, and honest/correct persons to implement it locally.
Technically, justice needs a D modal logic, (D = []p -> <>p), to avoid
the interdiction of obligatory things.
The logic Z might play that role. D is for Deontic.
Bruno
I am sure there are zoologists and anthropologists, who would have
oodles of observed behavior for the former. Justice is rarely
objective, however better tech may render our species better
choices. This is an optimistic guess.
Justice is when the laws are applied equally to all citizens.
If a law is unapplicable or unjust, well you can still write a book
and suggest changing a law.
Justice, like truth are ideal concepts, or guiding concepts. Pain
also, in teaching us what to avoid, it can guide to what is better.
Justice is not necessarily about punishment or revenge, but of
restauring trust in the references.
If you are raped by the local priest regularly since some times,
justice is already there a little bit when it stops.
Like in the health, we have only that: harm reduction. Tiny
improvements. Of course when bandits take or influence powers, "harm
reduction" is presented as tolerance which is not well seen those
days.
Hmm. I will have to think about that.
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