On 12 Jun 2014, at 18:33, John Clark wrote:
On Thu, Jun 12, 2014 at 9:33 AM, Bruno Marchal <marc...@ulb.ac.be>
wrote:
> the randomness (in the sense of normal statistical testing) of
that deterministic chaos has no other rôle in free-will than [...]
Before you start lecturing about what does and does not have a role
in "free will" you first must explain what the hell "free will" is
supposed to mean.
We have already agreed on the definition; more than one. You said it
was not interesting, but I took that as a subjective opinion, relative
to what we are interested in.
We have agree that free will = will = ability to make an image of an
uncertain local future (will I drink tea or coffee?), and to make
choice relatively to some high or higher level goal(s) (thirst, diet,
economy, ...).
>>> its necessary self-indeterminacy
>> We have self-indeterminacy?? I could not fail to disagree with
you less.
> This astonished me
What astonishes you?
That you dismiss the Turing indeterminacy. Usually you dismiss the
first person indeterminacy.
>>> Randomness adds nothing, as you see well
>> I have no idea what you mean by that, randomness clearly adds a
whole lot of stuff, usually more than we'd like.
> I meant "randomness adds nothing in the free will"
That's not surprising, I've been on this list for several years and
I've yet to find one person who could add anything of interest to
the "free will" noise, a sound that many like to make with their
mouth. There are endless debates about if human beings have "free
will" or not but both sides of the argument quite literally don't
know what they're arguing about. It's as if geometers where debating
if squares were klogneated or unklogneated but nobody thinks to ask
what klogneated means.
Only bad philosophers do that. Scientists start from the general idea,
usually inconsistent, and propose definition which make sense, and
develop theories, and prove theorems in those theories.
Interesting or not is relative to the problem you to try to solve.
Bruno
John K Clark
except that it can augment the freedom spectrum, and it might
diminish the complexity of the task or of comparing the possible
tasks.
I just defend the (well known in philosophy) compatibilist theory of
free-will. It is (simply) the will of a subject in a free (virtual
or real) environment, or in a structured set of such free (virtual
or real) environments (emulated in arithmetic, for example).
Bruno
John K Clark
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