Glen, I think Robert Wall is nudging close to an idea that he failed to adequately clarify but you may have nailed it while trying to deny it (this I call a backhanded strike). Last week there was a strange article about groups of people having the same memory that have no contact with each other. That shared memory was in fact demonstrably false. It was regarding a misperceived memory of a TV show called Shazaam and some comedian called Sinbad... My mind retains utter garbage sometimes.
I never saw it but then it never actually happened. The investigators explained that so many of the false memory components overlapped reality that the subjects truly believed some occurrence that was categorically disproved. So a society may well share memories of fictional events and act on delusions ie mobs. If an individual may fall into a groove then how else can mass insanity be better explained. I always recall that in history strange things happen on mass scale. For instance during the heated animosity between the Greeks and Latins a feud broke out over religious icons. West was Iconophilic and the east was Iconoclastic. The Latins were so pissed they assembled an armada in Rimini or Ravenna and sailed this monstrosity down the Adriatic to defend the faith. Somewhere between Brindisi and Corfu the greatest historical storm destroyed the entire fleet of ships sparing Byzantium a certain defeat. So Leo made a few compromises and things sort of settled down but then another group of serious iconoclasts made trouble the Paulicians. Then the Muslims came along and the world is still fractured in many ways. It always struck me as the height of insanity to go to war over Symbols and I think Monty Python once made a skit out of crusaders and muslims beating the crap out of each other with religious banners and gilded reliquaries. While the armed knights and Saracens looked on in amazement. Whether this ever happened , I do not know, but can guess. Perhaps " the groove" has a darkside a suicidal aspect, such as the Battle of Gallipoli, as well as the neutral individual features we love to discuss openly. I always suspected that Hatred is transmitted from mothers to children as is influenza propagation. I recall some very strange conversations between my German Mother and Ukrainian Aunt that bordered on the rabid hatred of mad dogs. Then they just continued serving Christmas dinner in total silence, when the men returned to the dinner table. My Uncle a devout Catholic and former Ukrainian Cavalry Officer would think nothing of Beheading Russians long after he was defeated in the 1920's. Indeed he was otherwise a rational Civil Engineer with a penchant for Botany but he hated anything that sounded affiliated with Russia or Eastern Orthodoxy. I could never tell the difference except for the slanted foot support on the crucifix. Hardly enough reason for bloodshed. But Dylan Rouffe and Alexandre Bisonette slaughtered defenseless congregations and showed no shame nor regret. They may be said to have been proud of what they did. Anders Brevijk may well have been in a dark trench at the time of his methodical depredations of children, again no shame. No one mentions that that slaughter by a single man exceeded anything in the Old Testament perhaps a Cuiness World Record. Populism may well be a filthy outpouring of bottled up hatred. And the perverted demagogues revel in the delusion that they can manipulate it to their personal benefits. It is not a welcome insight into human nature, I apologize for disturbing the peace. Well Canada is sending taxis to the border to rescue Somali's ignorant of our cold. Now our old ladies think the sky is falling because of a few refugees trying to run from Trump. Back in the 1960's and 70's we took in hundreds of American draft dodgers and the sun remained in Orbit. I must admit that I had some fun today speaking to a millennial visitor that could no longer abide liberal visciousness in the media. Left or right they are both resorting to fascistic techniques. He expected me to support the right but i laughed it off, I am more of a centrist anarchist I confessed, the other side of the sphere, so there was no need to abuse my hospitality. vib -----Original Message----- From: Friam [mailto:friam-boun...@redfish.com] On Behalf Of glen ? Sent: February-23-17 5:12 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] FW: Fractal discussion Landscape-bird songs Right, I think I got that you meant society being in the zone. You expressed doubt and I disagree with you -- meaning only that I have less doubt. 8^) I think society can (and does, often) get into a zone/groove/flow. Some symptoms that are often complained about are "mob behavior", "groupthink", etc. Some symptoms that are lauded are "wisdom of crowds", "negative freedoms" (freedom to _not_ be mugged, etc.), low unemployment, etc. My reference to my individual state of mind when I'm engaged in social activity was probably misleading, however. What I should have referred to is something like stigmergy or the co-constructed landscape, infrastructure. Some of us complain about the entitlement of the younger generations. But really it's a good thing that they feel entitled ... entitled to walk down dark alleys without being killed ... entitled to buy a state of the art automobile for only $25k ... entitled to drive that automobile and experience the (waning) culture of Route 66. Etc. These are "society in a groove". And it's a good thing for the most part. There are risks, e.g. populism, riots, the absence of critical thinking ... not knowing how to start a fire without a lighter, etc. Anyway, so I disagree with the idea that society, as a group, can't be "in the zone". But I believe that the thoughts inside the members of the society are not really _shared_ thoughts. The societal groove does not depend on isomorphic relationships between the insides of the members' heads. (holography again) And the extent to which individuals' grooves map to societal grooves is unclear (and probably complex). On 02/22/2017 12:18 PM, Robert Wall wrote: >> As for being in the zone socially, I disagree, though I don't >> particularly care about any jargonal co-option of the term. During >> hearty arguments, mostly with religious people, I definitely lose >> myself in exactly the same way I lose myself after that 3rd mile when >> running. I have no illusions that my zone is in any way shared by >> the people I'm arguing with, though ... no more than I think you and >> I share internal constructs mediated by the word "blue" > > > To be clear, Glen, I was referring to a society being "in the zone" as > a whole. Maybe this could mean an alignment of symbolic references. > Not sure, but, like you, somewhat dubious that this could happen. > Within my philosophy group, we have discussed the idea of *conscious > evolution*--becoming, say, wiser, by being "in the zone" so to > speak--*with respect to the individua*l. And I do see this as kind of > a Csikszentmihalyi-est "being in the zone," a period of selfless > awareness of a task or challenge. It's a neurological phenomenon. The > objective is to make the period last as long as possible. Society is > not very good at being selfless, even for a moment. > > Perhaps with the assistance of Hebbian learning, say, over time this > is possible for individuals who work at it to remain in this state > longer than is typical. It becomes a skill or practice. But bubbling > this up to the level of a society does not seem possible. Religion > hasn't and won't do it because that's a model that requires blind > credulity to the provided surreal symbols. Even in the context of > Hebbian learning, where are the "societal neurons" that need to be rewired > from their inculcated states? > They tend to be imbued in the laws and in the prevailing morality memes. > But these are just things to be gamed to ensure a *face validity* with > our self-full life simulations. > > The key component to any smart system is feedback. But, we live in a > society that is running open loop. Another form of loopiness or > delusion, I guess ... believing that everything will work out in the > long run. We are exceptional. We have democratic elections ... Hmmm, > I think the awakening is happening. Maybe there is hope? Is that a > drone I hear above ... Oh, it's just an Amazone delivery ... or is it? > :-) -- ☣ glen ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
