On Tue, Feb 12, 2002 at 02:27:59AM -0500, Ray Bowles wrote: > *** On Mon, 11 Feb 2002 at 1:24pm Derek D. Martin shared this with the class:: > > > Ray, I really hate when people do this. The numbers presented are > > very deceptive, because for Microsoft products, the numbers include > > ONLY the core OS. Linux distributions come with a multitude of > > I completely understand, but I was refering more to the relation of > problems in RedHat's "CRAP" distro rather than the Microsoft > numbers. Everybody knows how the results are computed. So regardless of > what numbers M$ is showing RH is still following in there footsteps of > putting out software before it is ready (or secure) and creating fodder > for the Windows world to throw at Linux systems. Personally (and I'm not > looking to start a distro war) I like Debian and OpenBSD and I like how > they faired against the other offerings. I'm glad to see their hard work > and adherence to strick standards are paying off!
Ray, I was going to let this go and not participate in this thread, but this set me off. Later in the above paragraph you state that you are not trying to start a distro war, but just a few lines previous you call Red Hat's distro a "CRAP" distro. I suggest taking a look at this blatant discrepency. I'ld also like to suggest that you take a look at Linux Weekly News' (http://lwn.net) [of February 7, 2002] take on this whole security numbers thing and then go do the extensive research that they suggest is required to get an accurate picture of the security of an OS. Until someone does that, the raw numbers mean "CRAP" to the discerning eye. I tolerate some jabs that Red Hat takes on this list and other Linux lists, because I know most of it is with the usual wink (;-)) and acknowledgement of at least two facts by the jab'er: 1) that software development is tough and we all make mistakes -- 2) Red Hat is the best know name in Linux (at least in this country) and as a result is under the brightest spotlight and therefore the highest scrutiny. Most who take jabs at Red Hat, though they might not say it, seem to be willing to acknowledge that the distro is not "CRAP", but might not be to their liking. That's fine -- to each his own. But I don't think I've ever seen anyone accuse the company of following in Microsoft's footsteps, except maybe some slashkiddies. Given, in particular, some recent news events about Microsoft's view on security (its view on the 'begin' bug, its fight against security info being published, etc.), I see that as a clear attack on the company. For now, I'm not going to debate why I am a Red Hat user and fan of their distribution, but just say that I find your accusations of their distribution being "CRAP", groundless. I'm not asking you explain yourself (I suspect that you might do that of your own accord), because your above comments seem to indicate that you wish to incite a riot and I'm not going to egg you on. > Everything isn't about bashing linux so stop looking for a > fight. There will always be poorly run companies and unfortunately for > their users I see RH being one of those companies. I know it's hard for > you to be open minded when it comes to Windows (and probably with good > reason) but give it a try when comparing Linux to it's relatives. Again, baseless accusations. So Red Hat is a poorly run company, but yet they are one of the few almost pure play Open Source company left that has figured out to make money in the Free Software world without sacrificing the principles of freedom in software (embodied primarily in the GPL). And they have been approaching profitability (no, I don't think they are there yet due to the absurd 'pro forma' numbers) a lot faster in their life as a public company than the Amazon's of the world. I know people personally who work at Red Hat and I'm sure they would have a lot to say about being told that they work for a 'poorly run company'. So I've got insiders' views, partner views (that I won't discuss publicly), an investor's view, and a user's view (my own and a few companies). All positive. Not perfect, but clearly positive. > > Try adding up the vulnerabilities for NT/2000, Microsoft office, > > Microsoft Outlook, Internet Explorer, IIS, Exchange, and FrontPage. > > Compare THAT number to Red Hat's, and now you've got something. What > > else does Microsoft sell that we can include in that figure, anyone? > > Now compare RH's numbers to BSD or Debian. See above about raw numbers being meaningless. > > I will remind people again that bashing Linux distros, especially in > > comparison to Microsoft products, is not a very good thing to do on a > > LINUX MAILING LIST. Some might call it flamebait... Others might > > call it trolling. > > I would call it being honest and critical about an OS I like quite a bit > and there is no better way to keep it prgressing the why it has been in > the last few years than to do just that. I would never give up my Linux > server because it the the best friggin' machine I have(not bad for a > Celleron 400), but M$ has done a lot of good things despite what you might > think. Everything is both good and Evil. Yes that includes Linux. > > And I will remind you that this is a Linux Mailing list NOT and > Anti-Microsoft mailing list. There is a difference! And I would remind *you* that this is not an anti-Red Hat list, either. It's quite a stretch to say that calling a distribution "CRAP" yet claiming you are not trying to start a distro war is *honest*. If you were more generic and said something to the affect that we need to do better as a group (meaning the world of Linux distributions), then I'ld say you were being 'honest and critical about an OS you like'. Taken for how it's written, your post was little more than a troll, as Derek pointed out that some might call it. > Ray > > ------------------------------ > Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path > and leave a trail. > > > ***************************************************************** > To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] > with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. > ***************************************************************** > -- -Paul Iadonisi Senior System Administrator Red Hat Certified Engineer / Local Linux Lobbyist Ever see a penguin fly? -- Try Linux. GPL all the way: Sell services, don't lease secrets ***************************************************************** To unsubscribe from this list, send mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the text 'unsubscribe gnhlug' in the message body. *****************************************************************
