Kudos Kundan! About time. Dr. Mishra, Venkatish is just a representative of a thought and not the school of thought itself. If we really want change we have to first *stop*indulging individual rantings by ignoring the individual concerned and address the thought. Yeh soch hi galat hai aur ek din mein nahin taiyyar hui.
Why something is happening or not happening is besides the point. The point is, that in a democracy (which we still are) Violence in any form whether state sponsored or otherwise... Cannot happen. And I agree with Kundan - it cannot be allowed to bloom and flower in any which way and in any space - which includes this one - its a NON - NEGOTIABLE! where are the moderators??? On 8/29/08, Dr Girish Mishra <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > I congratulate Kundan Kumar on his well argued intervention, but, I > think, > people like Sri Venkat who have not even a remote concern for the rules of > logic will give up their irrational and communal approach. Let Sri Venkat > ponder over the fact why the Hindus have been going over to Buddhism, > Islam, Christianity and so on. The caste system and oppression based on it > have been a major reason. Even now Dalits convert to Buddhism. B. R. > Ambedkar with his supporters left the fold of Hinduism to embrace > Buddhism. Even now in western U.P., Haryana and elsewhere Dalits are > oppressed and even burnt, a la, Jhajjhar in Haryana. Look at the Dasam > Mandal of the Rig Veda, Geeta and Golwalkar's "Bunch of Thoughts" and you > will find the divisions in Hindu society sacntified as divine. > In all other religions (Buddhism, Christianity, Islam, Sikhism and so on) > there is no such thing as "no entry to Dalits", but our great Hindu > religion and its Mahanths do not willingly allow the Dalits entry into the > temples. Even now in many villages, Dalits are not allowed to draw water > from wells and hand pumps located in non-Dalit areas. In these inhuman > conditions, if the Dalits leave Hinduism and go somewhere else where they > get dignity, education and health facilities and so on, Sri Venkat should > try to do something about our great religion. Instead of taking up > non-issues like Ram Mandir, Ram sethu, Sri Amarnath yatra,etc., the > self-appointed leaders of the Hindus should try to improve the lot of the > Dalits and others. This is a hope which will never be realised so long as > Togadia, Advani, Modi, Dara Singh,etc. remain as the custodians of our > religion. > Sri Venkat, please try to open the doors and windows of your mind, as > Tagore wanted each Indian to do, and your approach will change. > Girish Mishra > > > Venkat, > > > > What is the proof that Swamiji was killed by " those opposed to his > > anti-conversion efforts" i.e. evangelical christians? > > > > Were all the people who were killed in the subsequent violence a party to > > his killing? How different is this retaliation from terrorists who kill > > innocent people to retaliate against imagined and real grievances? Is > this > > approach not terrorism - that the Hindus will not forget such gruesome > > murder - and therefore kill innocent women and children in retaliation. > > Are > > you not implicitly advocating terror on innocent people- and therefore > are > > you not a terrorist by advocating such extreme position? Aren't you like > > the > > Maoists who don't abide by Indian constitution and the rule of law? > > > > Why can't you and those whom who support use the Parliamentry forum and > > lawful means to fight so called "conversion" rather than killing people. > > How > > are you different from those Islamic terrorists who believe that they > have > > the right to impose their "rules" on rest of the world by force and > > terror? > > > > Is VHP not behaving exactly like terrorists? Is taking the law in your > own > > hand and killing people without due process of law, women and Children, > > burning houses and places of worship not terrorism? How do we > > differentiate > > between people like you and muslim terrorists? Just that their God is > > different from ours? > > > > Fight Christian conversions lawfully - Courts are there, the law is > there. > > Pass new laws. Who gave the VHPs the right to take law in their own hands > > and visit death and mayhem upon innocent people. By using violence, VHP > is > > destroying the basic structure of Indian democracy - and therefore is > > indulging in terrorism against Indian State and Indian constitution. > > > > I have been to Kandhmal many a times, carried out my doctorate research > > there. I am aware of the situation on the ground - and I have seen the > > aggressiveness of the VHP and Bajrang Dal workers in that area. I am not > a > > christian - but I am ashamed of what is being done to religious > minorities > > in that area by the so called "thekedars" of hinduism. > > > > Yes, evangelical christianity has its problems, but who stops the > > government > > from applying the law. Most of the people's representatives from > Kandhmals > > are from BJP - have they filed any cases against so called illegal > > conversions. > > > > Then why this mayhem? Why do they indulge in lawlessness. Because the > > elections are near, and the maoists have given the rightwing a golden > > opportunity to ignite the communal fire and harvest votes. How is this > > different from terrorism of the Maoists or Talebanis is beyond my > > comprehension? And how can a member of this forum be allowed to take this > > stance of open terrorism without censure? > > > > > > Kundan > > > > > > On 8/28/08, sri venkat <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <ahvenkitesh%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > >> > >> it is not a question of minority or majority, it is a question of who > >> does the provocative aggression and hatred in the first place. > >> > >> If you do not address the issue which started this all, there is no > >> solution. And the issue is really not very difficult to figure out. It > >> is intolerant, Christian proselytization which takes advantage of the > >> inherent inclusiveness and tolerance of the majority Hindu. I am sorry > >> to say, there is a limit to Hindu tolerance. > >> > >> So only Christians have the answer to their problem they have created. > >> The beloved swami Lashmanananda of the tribals in Kandhamal was > >> brutally killed while doing Pooja on Janmashtami by those opposed to > >> his anti conversion efforts. No Hindu will forget such a gruesome > >> murder. > >> > >> Venkitesh > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> Venkitesh > >> > >> On 8/28/08, anindita dey <[EMAIL PROTECTED] <mrsadey%40yahoo.co.in>> > wrote: > >> > We should never get disheartened to few unscrupulous elements and > >> their > >> > propaganda masters through blogs and blame entire State. Do not get > >> carried > >> > away by blurred vision of these propaganda masters. The very Indian > >> > Constitution provides protection to each and every citizen, minority > >> or > >> > majority alike. Also, it has a strong Institutional back up to provide > >> such > >> > protection. That is why, even during BJP run Government era, the same > >> was > >> > not infringed. I do not see any departure from Indian ideology and > >> policy > >> as > >> > on today. Although we have already lost some life which is > >> irreversible, > >> > agonizing and precious, still we should not loose faith on our > >> Institutions. > >> > Justice will take its own course with time and truth will prevail. > >> > > >> > --- On Wed, 27/8/08, Biplab Mukherjee <[EMAIL > >> > PROTECTED]<contactbabua%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > >> > > >> > From: Biplab Mukherjee <[EMAIL PROTECTED]<contactbabua%40gmail.com> > > > >> > Subject: Re: Blind faith? Fragile peace blown to bits in Orissa -- SMS > >> poll > >> > To: Jharkhand@yahoogroups.co.in <Jharkhand%40yahoogroups.co.in> > >> > Date: Wednesday, 27 August, 2008, 5:17 PM > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Jharkhand Forum > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > state wants to eliminate minorities from the country's map > >> > biplab > >> > > >> > > >> > On 8/27/08, anindita dey <[EMAIL PROTECTED] co.in> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Jharkhand Forum | Jharkhand Blog | Jharkhand Video | Jharkhand Network > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Thanks Ventakji for putting such an extraordinary piece which will > >> certainly > >> > heal (?) the wounds and bring peace (if you understand the meaning of > >> this > >> > word). Please send it again to Mr. Kumar (I could see reasons to > >> overlook > >> > this by Mr. Kumar) so that he understands what the evangelist run (as > >> > proclaimed by him in the past) CNN-IBN has conspired to reflect. > >> > > >> > --- On Wed, 27/8/08, sri venkat <ahvenkitesh@ gmail.com> wrote: > >> > > >> > From: sri venkat <ahvenkitesh@ gmail.com> > >> > Subject: Blind faith? Fragile peace blown to bits in Orissa -- SMS > >> poll > >> > To: > >> > Date: Wednesday, 27 August, 2008, 9:14 AM > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > Dear Friends > >> > > >> > I came across this IBNlive poll regarding the recent murder and > >> > violence in Khandamal. > >> > > >> > Blind faith? Fragile peace blown to bits in Orissa > >> > > >> > A MATTER OF FAITH: CNN-IBN panelists debate if conversions pitting > >> Hindus > >> > against Christians. > >> > Religion has split Orissa and the divide is murderous. Several people > >> have > >> > been killed in communal clashes in Kandhamal district after the murder > >> of > >> a > >> > Vishwa Hindu Parishad (VHP) leader on Saturday. > >> > > >> > The VHP called for a statewide shutdown in the state on Monday during > >> which > >> > churches, prayer houses and vehicles were attacked in many places. > >> > > >> > The communal tension began after Swami Laxmananand Saraswati, a member > >> of > >> > VHP's central advisory committee, and four others were murdered by > >> suspected > >> > Naxals in Kandhamal district. > >> > > >> > Police and paramilitary forces are on guard in towns of Kandhamal > >> district. > >> > Section 144, which prohibits the assembly of four or more people, has > >> been > >> > clamped across Kandhamal. > >> > > >> > Saraswati was leading a campaign against cow slaughter and religious > >> > conversion in the communally sensitive district. Rightwing Hindu > >> groups > >> > allege that Christians killed Saraswati because he opposed conversion. > >> > Christian organisations reject such allegations. > >> > > >> > In one of the worst attacks, a Christian woman died and a priest was > >> > severely burnt when a mob set fire to an orphanage run by Christian > >> > missionaries in Bargarh district on Monday. > >> > > >> > The incident again brought shame to the state. Nine years ago, > >> Australian > >> > missionary Graham Staines and his two young sons were burnt alive by a > >> Hindu > >> > mob in Keonjhar district. > >> > > >> > What has caused the communal divide in Orissa? Is religion to blame or > >> > politics? Are conversions pitting Hindus against Christians? CNN-IBN's > >> > Sagarika Ghose asked this on Face The Nation. > >> > > >> > The guests on the show were: RSS spokesperson Ram Madhav, Reverend Dr > >> > Richard Howell, general secretary of the Evangelical Fellowship of > >> India, > >> > and Professor Manoranjan Mohanty, of the Council for Social > >> Development. > >> > > >> > Madhav was infuriated at allegations that Hindu groups were targeting > >> > missionaries and Christians in Orissa. "The situation is quite > >> different. > >> > Hindus are at the receiving end. A highly respected saint was killed. > >> There > >> > is enough evidence to prove the complicity of Christian organisations > >> in > >> the > >> > murder," he claimed. > >> > > >> > Howell rejected the Madhav's allegation and claimed conversion has > >> become > >> an > >> > excuse to attack Christians and malign them. "The VHP gets the maximum > >> > amount of money India than Christians. Christians have used money to > >> serve > >> > and empower the poor and marginalized. Not a single case has been > >> proved > >> > till date in the courts of forced conversion (by Christian groups)," > >> he > >> > said. > >> > > >> > The issue is not religion but poverty, said Professor Mohanty. > >> "Kandhamal > >> is > >> > one of the poorest regions in the country. Seventy per cent people > >> here > >> are > >> > below the poverty line; 51 per cent are tribals and 16 per cent are > >> Dalits," > >> > he said. > >> > > >> > "It is a situation of poverty and landlessness, both among Hindus and > >> > Christians. Orissa has become the experiment ground of globalisation, > >> > economic reforms, mega projects and Hindutva politics." > >> > > >> > Hindu groups are not to blame for the violence and the state is in > >> turmoil > >> > because of Christian missionaries, alleged Madhav. "Every conversion > >> in > >> > Orissa has to be registered with the local police or magistrate but no > >> such > >> > thing happens. Where is the chance for Hindutva politics when > >> missionaries > >> > are going about aggressively and alluring people," he said. > >> > > >> > The Sangh Parivar doesn't hate conversions as much as it does > >> Christians, > >> > alleged Howell. "An ideology of hatred has been propagated by some > >> sections > >> > of the Sangh Parivar. They don't hate Christian service; it is the > >> very > >> > identity of being a Christian that is hated. There are just 2.4 per > >> cent > >> > Christians in India and we too have contributed to the growth of the > >> > country." > >> > > >> > Christians are not hated, insisted Madhav. "Every religion is > >> respected > >> in > >> > this country but Christians criticise and attack Hindu religion. It > >> this > >> > attitude of Christians which is leading to tension in this country," > >> he > >> > alleged. > >> > > >> > The communal divide in Orissa's tribal districts is the result of > >> poverty > >> > and "competitive politics", said Mohanty. "The shrinking rights of > >> tribals > >> > over forests and land and the coming of mega projects is the economic > >> issue > >> > there. They are all poor there and poverty is being diverted to > >> communalism. > >> > It is competitive politics," he said. > >> > > >> > Madhav called such an analysis wrong. "There is a clear cut division > >> between > >> > Hindus and Christians and it is because of their (missionaries) > >> wrongdoing > >> > and Congress leaders. A holy person is killed and the very next day > >> the > >> > Congress tables a no-confidence motion against the state > >> government—what > >> > does it suggest? The Congress is a part of a larger political > >> conspiracy," > >> > he alleged. > >> > > >> > Howell announced Christian institutions in the country would close on > >> August > >> > 29 to protest against the attacks in Orissa. "I hope the civil society > >> wakes > >> > up before it's too late," he said. > >> > > >> > Madhav said Christian groups were free to shut their schools and > >> > institutions but they must also shut "proselytization" activity. > >> > > >> > "Do not make this a Christian versus Hindu issue. We must go into the > >> > sources of violence," said Mohanty. > >> > > >> > SMS poll on 'Are conversions pitting Hindus against Christians?' > >> > > >> > Yes: 91 per cent, No: 9 per cent. > >> > > >> > Blind faith? Fragile peace blown to bits in Orissa > >> > http://www.ibnlive. com/news/ blind-faith- fragile-peace- blown-to- > >> > bits-in-orissa/ 72250-3-single. html > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > >> ------------------------------------ > >> > >> Replying to this email will send an e-mail to 5000+ members of Jharkhand > >> Forum. > >> > >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> > >> About Jharkhand Forum @ > >> http://www.jharkhand.org.in/about-jharkhand-forum > >> > >> Jharkhand Forum's Posting Norms > >> http://jharkhand.org.in/posting_norms.htm > >> > >> Add your Name in JF's Members List - > >> http://www.jharkhand.org.in/directory > >> > >> Volunteer for Jharkhand, find more @ > >> http://www.jharkhand.org.in/volunteer > >> > >> +-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+ > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> > >> [ =>> Jharkhand Forum's Daily Digest <<= ] > >> > >> Jharkhand Forum's memberships have been growing up every day so the no. > >> of > >> messages. 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