Wow. Thanks so much Roy! Works like a charm! On 3/1/11, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > Send Jsonar mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://jsonar.org/mailman/listinfo/jsonar_jsonar.org > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Jsonar digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: OT: discussion on Sonar's audio engine sonic quality > (Phil Muir) > 2. exporting audio from a soft synth (Calvin Botha) > 3. Re: exporting audio from a soft synth (Roy Shtupler) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 10:54:14 -0000 > From: "Phil Muir" <[email protected]> > To: "'Yamuna Jivana dasa'" <[email protected]>, "'JSonar -- JAWS > Scripts for Sonar discussion list'" <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Jsonar] OT: discussion on Sonar's audio engine sonic > quality > Message-ID: <2EB740755CA945A1A17C49B7A5A5508B@PhilsLaptop> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > Thought so. > > > > > Regards, Phil Muir > Accessibility Training > Telephone: US (615) 713-2021 > UK +44-1747-821-794 > Mobile: UK +44-7968-136-246 > E-mail: > [email protected] > URL: > http://www.accessibilitytraining.co.uk/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Yamuna Jivana dasa [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 01 March 2011 06:34 > To: [email protected]; 'JSonar -- JAWS Scripts for Sonar > discussion list' > Subject: Re: [Jsonar] OT: discussion on Sonar's audio engine sonic quality > > Phil wrote: > > Phil replied: a few I think. For example, don't think you get the > percussion and vocal strip plug-ins with 8.3. do you? You will have to let > me know on that one. > > No it seems we do not, at least not on Sonar 8.3.0.367. Also checked under > Sonitus plugins in case it belonged there and I did not find it there > either. > > Yamuna > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Phil Muir" <[email protected]> > To: "'Yamuna Jivana dasa'" <[email protected]>; "'JSonar -- JAWS > Scripts for Sonar discussion list'" <[email protected]> > Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 3:37 PM > Subject: RE: [Jsonar] OT: discussion on Sonar's audio engine sonic quality > > > Yamuna wrote: snip, The closest thing I see as an Audio FX is something > called TL64_Tube Leveller. Is this the same thing? > > Phil replied: my bad. It is indeed. Sorry about that. Have too much junk > in my head, LOL! Yes, this is the plug-in you want. There's a great preset > in it called "Subtle Warm Dirt" which, works well for bass guitar. > > Yamuna wrote: Note: I am using Sonar 8.3.0.367. - not sure if I can update > to a later version free? > > Phil replied: think if you purchased sonar 8.3 from or, after July last year > then, there's a free Sonar 8.5 update available. > > Yamuna wrote: Also perhaps such a later version may come with more audio FX? > > > Phil replied: a few I think. For example, don't think you get the > percussion and vocal strip plug-ins with 8.3. do you? You will have to let > me know on that one. > > > Regards, Phil Muir > Accessibility Training > Telephone: US (615) 713-2021 > UK +44-1747-821-794 > Mobile: UK +44-7968-136-246 > E-mail: > [email protected] > URL: > http://www.accessibilitytraining.co.uk/ > -----Original Message----- > From: Yamuna Jivana dasa [mailto:[email protected]] > Sent: 28 February 2011 10:43 > To: [email protected]; 'JSonar -- JAWS Scripts for Sonar > discussion list' > Subject: Re: [Jsonar] OT: discussion on Sonar's audio engine sonic quality > > Hi there Phil, and everybody, > > In your previous, and very helpful hints on mastering in Sonar, you > mentioned: > >>Don't know if you have the Tube Saturator in Sonar 8.3 but, I use that >>before the Sonitus Compressor then, finish off with a little EQ. > > Yamuna's reply: > > The clocest thing I see as an Audio FX is something called TL64_Tube > Leveller. Is this the same thing? > > Note: I am using Sonar 8.3.0.367. - not sure if I can update to a later > version free? Also perhaps such a later version may come with more audio FX? > and if that will come with the plugin you refer to? > > Thanks! > > Yamuna > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Phil Muir" <[email protected]> > To: "'Yamuna Jivana dasa'" <[email protected]>; "'JSonar -- JAWS > Scripts for Sonar discussion list'" <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:25 PM > Subject: RE: [Jsonar] OT: discussion on Sonar's audio engine sonic quality > > > Hi Yamuna! > > I have placed comments within your message. > > Phil writes: > I first took a listen to Viresh_03.mp3 and was immediately struck by the > lack of separation between instruments and lack of affects processing on > instruments. > > Yamuna replies: > > Phil, I think this is the main problem as well. Perhaps the need for me > learning how to be intelligent about applying an EQ or compressor in varying > situations is the problem, for which my friend is wrongly attributing the > problem to Sonar's audio engine. But if this is true then I'm glad. At > least something can be done about it - if I can find the tools to learn > techniques of application from the more experienced. > > Phil replied: I think that's what's really going on here. > > Phil continues: > > I then took a listen to Siya_OnLine.mp3 and feel that this mix is > considerably better however, there are still to my ears at least, issues > with lack of separation. > > Yamuna replies: Well amazingly enough, the main differences with the two > tracks are as follows: In Viresh_03 I used a combination of dimension Pro, > sound fonts which I loaded into SFZ, and drum hits from both Session drummer > and sound fonts through SFZ. I made use of EQ for shaping of the bass, EQ on > some of the drums particularly the kick, and I used EQ shaping and a heavy > compressor on vocals busses. For Siya On Line I used sounds from Hypersonic > 2 exclusively. I only used EQ and a heavy handed compressor on vocals, and > on the master bus I used very slight EQ shaping to brighten the highs to > finalize the project. Absolutely no shaping of individual instruments were > done, mainly because at the time when I had to produce that song, I had some > damage to my right ear and I felt that if I was to try messing with the > sound it would have probably gotten worse rather than better. At that time > doctor said there was some mucous build up which was putting pressure on the > middle ear, and so I was hearing poorly from the outside and my own voice > was sounding louder and boomy on the inside of that ear! Bass frequencies > were also causing me to hear a kind of rumble deep inside the head > somewhere, causing my perception of the sound to be highly retarded. <frown > So yes, although the sound was apparently better in Siya On line, less > mastering was done. As for the EQ-ing and compressor on vocals busses, I > made use of presets in both the Sonitus compressor and the bus EQ that I > created to use as a general guideline whenever I apply these to my projects. > More on this later. But in this case with my then damaged ear I just had to > go with the general presets without modifying them just to put that song > together for the competition. > > Phil replied: really sorry to hear about the health issues with you ear. I > hope you have made a full recovery now. > > Phil continues: > > Questions follow > > 1: when inserting softsynthes, do you simply insert them as stereo tracks > and run with that or, do you separate out the stereo tracks and have 2 mono > tracks instead? If not then, it's worth doing this as you will gain a lot > of control over the softsynthe in question as you will have separate pan > controls for each track. Also, there can be situations where you won't want > a stereo softsynthe to completely dominate the image and using the above > method, will give you control over that. > > Yamuna replies: I usually do insert them as stereo soft synths I admit, > unless I particularly want to reduce the stereo imaging of that instrument. > If I want to completely turn it to mono, I still insert it as a stereo synth > and I change the interleave of that track to mono. I always thought that > with most of these soft synths the stereo imaging on most tracks were not > going to be simply a wide swirly mess of the stereo image because I felt > that those instruments are usually created with production in mind, and that > patches are usually created more or less as what you would want. I could > certainly be wrong as you suggest. So I thought adding them as stereo > synths usually worked fine for the most part. > > Phil replied: this approach will probably work, if you have a single > keyboard sound and a vocal on a track however, if there's anything more than > that going on in a project then, you will probably need to make adjustments > to the stereo field. Try this. On any keyboard sound that dominates the > stereo filed such as a piano, insert a audio track above the stereo track > then, change the input to the right softsynthe input. Then, go up to the > stereo track above that for the softsynthe and rout that to the first mono > left input then, rename the tracks to something more sensible. you could > then apply the same method to a string sound then, say pan the left pan on > the string sound 100% left and the right pan 50% right. You would then do > the reverse on the piano, put the pan on the left piano track 50% left and > the right pan 100% right. This allows both sounds to still have a bit of a > stereo image. you could then EQ the the piano and string sounds separately > which, will again add even more separation and clarity to the mix. > > Yamuna wrote: Bases are usually almost dry near mono except for those flangy > chorusy type bases; Drums usually have the standard panning on toms, dry > middle on kick, near dry middle on snares, and some panning on other > percussive sounds that are usually useful the way they come. > > Phil replied: with regard to perrcussion, I always EQ bongos congas etc as > they usually will have a bit of boominess that needs removing. > > Yamuna continues: Electric piano pads usually have a gentle chorusy stereo > imaging, steel string guitars are very often near dry mono middle Etc, so > for the most part I usually accepted them as they are. > > Phil replied; this ones probably a personal taste thing but, I always turn > off all affects on any inserted softsynthe. I will expand on the reasons > for doing this shortly. > > Yamuna wrote: If I need to change this approach, pleas guide me on how I > could do this intelligently and meaningfully. > > Phil replied: which brings me to my next point. The affects on softsynthes > are not usually as good as other ones that are available. Take reverbs on > softsynthes for example. The Lexicon Pantheon is way better than any of the > reverb patches in Dimension Pro. Or, other affects such as chorus can be > drastically improved by using the Kjaerhus Audio Classic Chorus. > > Phil continues: 2: Did you insert Session Drummer as a multiple output > softsynthe and break out all of the drums in the interface to separate > tracks and EQ and compress them all separately? If not then, this too will > give you more control over the drum sound and the ability to shape it. > > Yamuna replies: I have various project templates which I have built to make > use of drums from various places as I have come to prefer them over time. > Yes I do have multiple instances of soft synths carrying individual drum > instances to individual audio tracks, or in cases of those with multiple > outs like Session drummer I do assign those outs separately to audio tracks. > Then, I set up a single midi track with a drum map configured to map the > keyboard to each of the drum hits I like, and in each case of course they > are each carried on individual audio tracks upon which I can master > independently. > > So yes, I do have it set up more or less as you propose. However having > said that, I find that even having this flexibility inherently now in place > in my templates, I rarely do much with my drums. Sometimes I add some very > short reverb to the snare for nothing else than simply to move it back a bit > slightly behind the mix, or sometimes I may use some long reverb with low > early reflections for that sort of effect to the snare, sometimes I might > add some EQ at around 200 Hz to the kick to shape the bass on it, and so on. > > Phil replied: the most problematic area for kick drums is around 400HZ. You > usually will need to do a little cutting there. Also, I EQ and compress all > of my drums separately, individual EQ and compression for kick, snare and > each of the toms. > > Yamuna wrote: What I do like to do is to compress toms with an attack time > to create a punchyness on the toms, but I find that to do this you have to > set up each tom independently either as separate outputs from a drum > instrument, or as separate instances of the instruments which do not have > multiple outputs, to individual audio tracks, because otherwise it > compresses the toms as a group and then it doesn't have nearly the effect > desired. > > Phil replied: Exactly. You need to EQ and compress all of your drums > separately. > > Yamuna wrote: I already find so many tracks in my projects to accommodate > this kind of flexibility that I tend to hesitate to separate out toms in > this way, for fear of even more clutter! > But then perhaps the clutter is worth the sonic results! Do you think so? > > Phil replied: I absolutely do think so! > > Yamuna wrote: Or is there a better way to do these things and get the kind > of desired results described here?? > > Phil replied: I don't think so. > > Phil continues: 3: did you EQ and compress the bass softsynthe? > > Yamuna replies: In Viresh_03 I did EQ it but I did not compress it. As > already stated in Siya On Line I did not do any mastering on individual > instruments. The thing is that I am not very sure of when and how to apply > compression on bass. EQ on bass gives me a hard time too, because I always > try to get my bass mid highs to be pronounced enough that they will add body > to the sound on a small music system for the average listener playing the > song for example on small desktop computer speakers. I definitely need > guidance here too. > > Phil replied: adding compression to the bass will make it sound punchier. > Don't know if you have the Tube Saturator in Sonar 8.3 but, I use that > before the Sonitus Compressor then, finish off with a little EQ. If you > don't then, the freely available Dijitalphishphones Blockfish Compressor, > will do a pretty good job in place of the Tube Saturator. Tip, the Sonitus > Compressor has a couple of bass guitar presets which would be a great > starting point. > > Phil continues: 4: did you EQ and if necessary, compress all other keyboard > > softsynthes/parts? > > Yamuna replies: Honestly, no! I usually am not sure what to do with them! > As far as compression is concerned, again the question of compressing the > sound as a whole or individual notes for a slightly punchier attack and a > lesser sustain of the notes may be what is wanted, but in this case I can't > seem to do that with a compressor on a track, of course because it only > affects the track as a whole! So what is to be done with these? As far as > EQ is concerned on pad sounds, I really don't know what is usually an > intelligent thing to do to give the pads it's own space in the mix. Raising > the 500 HZ freqs to improve the body middle doesn't seem to do just the > right thing because it seems to create a hollow sound on the instrument. If > I make very slight plus changes to the gain control then I feel I am just > playing with the EQ for the sake of saying I EQd the pads to myself that I > did something to it when in fact it was sonically not relevant or meaningful > enough. So again, some ideas to guide me would be nice. > > Phil replied: you will have to experiment a bit here. For example, I wanted > a pad to sound a little punchier and I found that applying a low shelf at > 200HZ, did the trick. A lot of this is getting the mud out of the bottom > end, rather than concentrating on the hi's. Also, if you feel the need to > compress keyboards then, the Sonitus Compressors comping Synthe Keyboard > patch, is a good starting point. > > Phil continues: 5: did you allow sufficient separation between all of the > vocal tracks and did you EQ and compress them? > > Yamuna replies: I usually have a single bus carrying my lead vocal, and on > the lead vocal track I may apply a slight send to the reverb bus for the > lead vocal. On the lead vocal bus I enable the bus EQ and add a compressor. > Since I do not have a single acoustically treated room for vocals, I > compensate for this by using close micing. I have to compensate for the > heavy dynamics resulting from close micing by using heavy compression, > starting somewhere around -24 DB or even lower, and I use a ratio of around > 5 to 1 to allow some dynamics to filter through so that it still breathes > nicely enough! The big problem with close micing is the actual singer's > breathing or lips moving and other negative stuff which I can't seem to work > around except by physically removing those manually (what a pains taking > exercise!). > > I then use a separate bus to carry the backing vocals, and on the backing > vocal bus I enable the EQ and use similar settings to the lead bus EQ so > that they do not sound like the lead and backing belongs to separate > projects. Here again perhaps with the proper intelligent usage of separate > EQing I could separate them out better but without them sounding like they > belong in separate songs. > I usually have individual compressors on each of the backing vocal tracks to > bring them up to gel together as a tight unit of backing, and then I have > another lighter compressor sitting on the backing vocals bus to smooth the > whole thing out as a backing vocals unit. > > Phil replied: you may be able to get rid of some of this by putting in a low > pass filter on the EQ for vocal tracks/busses at 80 or, 100HZ. > > Phil continues: 6: did you switch all of the EQ's in Sonar from Pree to post > on all of the various tracks/busses after adding other affects such as > compression etc? > Remember you will have to do that in the inspector as by default, they are > all switched to pree affects. > > Yamuna replies: Yes. I always do this. I actually wonder why Sonar does not > apply them as post rather than pre by default! > > Phil replied: not sure why Sonar does this either. Think it's a bit > strange. Thank God for templates! > > Phil continues: 7: did you put anything on the master bus E.G., tape > simulator, compressor, EQ etc? > > Yamuna replies: I usually apply over-all EQ on the master bus, and I play > with it from project to project with the hope of shaping the sound overall. > Usually my standard EQ settings here amounts to brightening the over-all > highs, or deepening the very deep lows just a slight bit with a very wide > bandwidth cue which I have found in Sonar really makes the bass sound better > on smaller speakers while not booming it up too much on big 15 to 18 inch > bass bins. > > Phil replied: remember that if you are using an EQ on the master buss then, > you don't want to boost highs too much. If your working at 12K and you are > boosting more than say, 4DB then, you may need to go back to your mix and > make some adjustments there. > > Yamuna wrote: I'm yet to play around with that tape simulator you mentioned, > to see how it colours the audio. Sounds interesting from the help file. > > Phil replied: one of Sonar's best kept secrets. > > Phil writes: may be able to send the track directly to you or, set-up a link > somewhere. Would be happy to perhaps consider putting something on your > server but, unfortunately don't have the time running at the above-mentioned > kind of speed. > > Yamuna replies: However it may be convenient for you, please kindly see that > I get access to it. I am very interested to hear what you have done coming > out of Sonar's audio engine with some of the better instruments and effects > and using of some intelligent mixing/mastering in place Etc. > > Phil replied: have to get back to work now so, probably won't get this done > until later on today. Will let you all know when I have sorted this out. > > Yamuna wrote: I also have some mischief in mind - that is, to test the Sonar > critics, especially this good friend of mine, with a blind listening test. > > Phil replied: sounds like fun! > > Yamuna wrote: Whew! Sorry for the long post but there was just so much to > say here. > > Phil replied: no worries! > > Yamuna wrote: Now with so much said here I am all the more eager for the > responses from the group! > > Phil replied: will be interesting to see what else comes back from the > group. > > Yamuna wrote: Kindest regards to all on list. > > Phil replied: and to you too! > > Regards, Phil Muir > Accessibility Training > Telephone: US (615) 713-2021 > UK +44-1747-821-794 > Mobile: UK +44-7968-136-246 > E-mail: > [email protected] > URL: > http://www.accessibilitytraining.co.uk/ > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3458 - Release Date: 02/21/11 > > > > > ----- > No virus found in this message. > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 10.0.1204 / Virus Database: 1435/3472 - Release Date: 02/27/11 > > > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 2 > Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 03:44:51 -0800 > From: Calvin Botha <[email protected]> > To: [email protected] > Subject: [Jsonar] exporting audio from a soft synth > Message-ID: > <[email protected]> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 > > Hay. Thanks a lot for the replies to my previous message about > exporting a soft synth to audio. I am still however struggeling to > accomplish this. Even though i went to the options-advanced tab and > checked the check box that said "play effect tales after stop: it > still stops abruptly. I am not too familiar with selection commands > within a track as I'm still a newb when it comes to sonar (got it last > Thursday). Please help? > > With regards to kontakt, I was able to sort out the problem i was > having. Indeed, kontakt is probably the most inaccessible soft synth > out their, but all i really needed was to load a patch. The control o > command did not work in the plug-in GUI window within sonar so what i > did was i found a program that records the action of the mouse and > keyboard to be "played back" at a later stage, basically the process > of creating a macro. Then, with sited assistance, i recfforded the > appropriate mouse action to be performed and vuala, i can load patches > within kontakt! > > > > ------------------------------ > > Message: 3 > Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 15:01:16 +0200 > From: Roy Shtupler <[email protected]> > To: JSonar -- JAWS Scripts for Sonar discussion list > <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [Jsonar] exporting audio from a soft synth > Message-ID: <DA4E71625CBA4575AC3DF73175B67C99@DJ0QC33J> > Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed; > reply-type=original > > CTRL+pageup/down go from measure to measure; also you can use F5 and type a > measure number. > Shift+pageup/down go back or forward by beat. > F9 sets the From time of the selection , F10 sets the thru time. > so , after selecting your tracks , locate the now time on the measure/beat > where the selection should start and press F9. > now , navigate to , say 2 or 3 measures after the music ended , then press > F10. > now export your audio. > hope this helps > Roy. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Calvin Botha" <[email protected]> > To: <[email protected]> > Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 1:44 PM > Subject: [Jsonar] exporting audio from a soft synth > > >> Hay. Thanks a lot for the replies to my previous message about >> exporting a soft synth to audio. I am still however struggeling to >> accomplish this. Even though i went to the options-advanced tab and >> checked the check box that said "play effect tales after stop: it >> still stops abruptly. I am not too familiar with selection commands >> within a track as I'm still a newb when it comes to sonar (got it last >> Thursday). Please help? >> >> With regards to kontakt, I was able to sort out the problem i was >> having. Indeed, kontakt is probably the most inaccessible soft synth >> out their, but all i really needed was to load a patch. The control o >> command did not work in the plug-in GUI window within sonar so what i >> did was i found a program that records the action of the mouse and >> keyboard to be "played back" at a later stage, basically the process >> of creating a macro. Then, with sited assistance, i recfforded the >> appropriate mouse action to be performed and vuala, i can load patches >> within kontakt! >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Find JSonar and Sonar FAQs, articles, guides and downloads at jsonar.org. >> >> Jsonar mailing list >> [email protected] >> http://jsonar.org/mailman/listinfo/jsonar_jsonar.org > > > > > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Jsonar mailing list > [email protected] > http://jsonar.org/mailman/listinfo/jsonar_jsonar.org > > > End of Jsonar Digest, Vol 39, Issue 1 > ************************************* >
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