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Today's Topics:
1. Re: OT: discussion on Sonar's audio engine sonic quality
(Phil Muir)
2. exporting audio from a soft synth (Calvin Botha)
3. Re: exporting audio from a soft synth (Roy Shtupler)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 10:54:14 -0000
From: "Phil Muir" <[email protected]>
To: "'Yamuna Jivana dasa'" <[email protected]>, "'JSonar -- JAWS
Scripts for Sonar discussion list'" <[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Jsonar] OT: discussion on Sonar's audio engine sonic
quality
Message-ID: <2EB740755CA945A1A17C49B7A5A5508B@PhilsLaptop>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Thought so.
Regards, Phil Muir
Accessibility Training
Telephone: US (615) 713-2021
UK +44-1747-821-794
Mobile: UK +44-7968-136-246
E-mail:
[email protected]
URL:
http://www.accessibilitytraining.co.uk/
-----Original Message-----
From: Yamuna Jivana dasa [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 01 March 2011 06:34
To: [email protected]; 'JSonar -- JAWS Scripts for Sonar
discussion list'
Subject: Re: [Jsonar] OT: discussion on Sonar's audio engine sonic
quality
Phil wrote:
Phil replied: a few I think. For example, don't think you get the
percussion and vocal strip plug-ins with 8.3. do you? You will have to
let
me know on that one.
No it seems we do not, at least not on Sonar 8.3.0.367. Also checked
under
Sonitus plugins in case it belonged there and I did not find it there
either.
Yamuna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Muir" <[email protected]>
To: "'Yamuna Jivana dasa'" <[email protected]>; "'JSonar -- JAWS
Scripts for Sonar discussion list'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Monday, February 28, 2011 3:37 PM
Subject: RE: [Jsonar] OT: discussion on Sonar's audio engine sonic
quality
Yamuna wrote: snip, The closest thing I see as an Audio FX is something
called TL64_Tube Leveller. Is this the same thing?
Phil replied: my bad. It is indeed. Sorry about that. Have too much
junk
in my head, LOL! Yes, this is the plug-in you want. There's a great
preset
in it called "Subtle Warm Dirt" which, works well for bass guitar.
Yamuna wrote: Note: I am using Sonar 8.3.0.367. - not sure if I can
update
to a later version free?
Phil replied: think if you purchased sonar 8.3 from or, after July last
year
then, there's a free Sonar 8.5 update available.
Yamuna wrote: Also perhaps such a later version may come with more audio
FX?
Phil replied: a few I think. For example, don't think you get the
percussion and vocal strip plug-ins with 8.3. do you? You will have to
let
me know on that one.
Regards, Phil Muir
Accessibility Training
Telephone: US (615) 713-2021
UK +44-1747-821-794
Mobile: UK +44-7968-136-246
E-mail:
[email protected]
URL:
http://www.accessibilitytraining.co.uk/
-----Original Message-----
From: Yamuna Jivana dasa [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: 28 February 2011 10:43
To: [email protected]; 'JSonar -- JAWS Scripts for Sonar
discussion list'
Subject: Re: [Jsonar] OT: discussion on Sonar's audio engine sonic
quality
Hi there Phil, and everybody,
In your previous, and very helpful hints on mastering in Sonar, you
mentioned:
Don't know if you have the Tube Saturator in Sonar 8.3 but, I use that
before the Sonitus Compressor then, finish off with a little EQ.
Yamuna's reply:
The clocest thing I see as an Audio FX is something called TL64_Tube
Leveller. Is this the same thing?
Note: I am using Sonar 8.3.0.367. - not sure if I can update to a later
version free? Also perhaps such a later version may come with more audio
FX?
and if that will come with the plugin you refer to?
Thanks!
Yamuna
----- Original Message -----
From: "Phil Muir" <[email protected]>
To: "'Yamuna Jivana dasa'" <[email protected]>; "'JSonar -- JAWS
Scripts for Sonar discussion list'" <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, February 22, 2011 2:25 PM
Subject: RE: [Jsonar] OT: discussion on Sonar's audio engine sonic
quality
Hi Yamuna!
I have placed comments within your message.
Phil writes:
I first took a listen to Viresh_03.mp3 and was immediately struck by the
lack of separation between instruments and lack of affects processing on
instruments.
Yamuna replies:
Phil, I think this is the main problem as well. Perhaps the need for me
learning how to be intelligent about applying an EQ or compressor in
varying
situations is the problem, for which my friend is wrongly attributing the
problem to Sonar's audio engine. But if this is true then I'm glad. At
least something can be done about it - if I can find the tools to learn
techniques of application from the more experienced.
Phil replied: I think that's what's really going on here.
Phil continues:
I then took a listen to Siya_OnLine.mp3 and feel that this mix is
considerably better however, there are still to my ears at least, issues
with lack of separation.
Yamuna replies: Well amazingly enough, the main differences with the two
tracks are as follows: In Viresh_03 I used a combination of dimension
Pro,
sound fonts which I loaded into SFZ, and drum hits from both Session
drummer
and sound fonts through SFZ. I made use of EQ for shaping of the bass, EQ
on
some of the drums particularly the kick, and I used EQ shaping and a
heavy
compressor on vocals busses. For Siya On Line I used sounds from
Hypersonic
2 exclusively. I only used EQ and a heavy handed compressor on vocals,
and
on the master bus I used very slight EQ shaping to brighten the highs to
finalize the project. Absolutely no shaping of individual instruments
were
done, mainly because at the time when I had to produce that song, I had
some
damage to my right ear and I felt that if I was to try messing with the
sound it would have probably gotten worse rather than better. At that
time
doctor said there was some mucous build up which was putting pressure on
the
middle ear, and so I was hearing poorly from the outside and my own voice
was sounding louder and boomy on the inside of that ear! Bass
frequencies
were also causing me to hear a kind of rumble deep inside the head
somewhere, causing my perception of the sound to be highly retarded.
<frown
So yes, although the sound was apparently better in Siya On line, less
mastering was done. As for the EQ-ing and compressor on vocals busses, I
made use of presets in both the Sonitus compressor and the bus EQ that I
created to use as a general guideline whenever I apply these to my
projects.
More on this later. But in this case with my then damaged ear I just had
to
go with the general presets without modifying them just to put that song
together for the competition.
Phil replied: really sorry to hear about the health issues with you ear.
I
hope you have made a full recovery now.
Phil continues:
Questions follow
1: when inserting softsynthes, do you simply insert them as stereo
tracks
and run with that or, do you separate out the stereo tracks and have 2
mono
tracks instead? If not then, it's worth doing this as you will gain a
lot
of control over the softsynthe in question as you will have separate pan
controls for each track. Also, there can be situations where you won't
want
a stereo softsynthe to completely dominate the image and using the above
method, will give you control over that.
Yamuna replies: I usually do insert them as stereo soft synths I admit,
unless I particularly want to reduce the stereo imaging of that
instrument.
If I want to completely turn it to mono, I still insert it as a stereo
synth
and I change the interleave of that track to mono. I always thought that
with most of these soft synths the stereo imaging on most tracks were not
going to be simply a wide swirly mess of the stereo image because I felt
that those instruments are usually created with production in mind, and
that
patches are usually created more or less as what you would want. I could
certainly be wrong as you suggest. So I thought adding them as stereo
synths usually worked fine for the most part.
Phil replied: this approach will probably work, if you have a single
keyboard sound and a vocal on a track however, if there's anything more
than
that going on in a project then, you will probably need to make
adjustments
to the stereo field. Try this. On any keyboard sound that dominates the
stereo filed such as a piano, insert a audio track above the stereo track
then, change the input to the right softsynthe input. Then, go up to the
stereo track above that for the softsynthe and rout that to the first
mono
left input then, rename the tracks to something more sensible. you could
then apply the same method to a string sound then, say pan the left pan
on
the string sound 100% left and the right pan 50% right. You would then
do
the reverse on the piano, put the pan on the left piano track 50% left
and
the right pan 100% right. This allows both sounds to still have a bit of
a
stereo image. you could then EQ the the piano and string sounds
separately
which, will again add even more separation and clarity to the mix.
Yamuna wrote: Bases are usually almost dry near mono except for those
flangy
chorusy type bases; Drums usually have the standard panning on toms, dry
middle on kick, near dry middle on snares, and some panning on other
percussive sounds that are usually useful the way they come.
Phil replied: with regard to perrcussion, I always EQ bongos congas etc
as
they usually will have a bit of boominess that needs removing.
Yamuna continues: Electric piano pads usually have a gentle chorusy
stereo
imaging, steel string guitars are very often near dry mono middle Etc, so
for the most part I usually accepted them as they are.
Phil replied; this ones probably a personal taste thing but, I always
turn
off all affects on any inserted softsynthe. I will expand on the reasons
for doing this shortly.
Yamuna wrote: If I need to change this approach, pleas guide me on how I
could do this intelligently and meaningfully.
Phil replied: which brings me to my next point. The affects on
softsynthes
are not usually as good as other ones that are available. Take reverbs
on
softsynthes for example. The Lexicon Pantheon is way better than any of
the
reverb patches in Dimension Pro. Or, other affects such as chorus can be
drastically improved by using the Kjaerhus Audio Classic Chorus.
Phil continues: 2: Did you insert Session Drummer as a multiple output
softsynthe and break out all of the drums in the interface to separate
tracks and EQ and compress them all separately? If not then, this too
will
give you more control over the drum sound and the ability to shape it.
Yamuna replies: I have various project templates which I have built to
make
use of drums from various places as I have come to prefer them over time.
Yes I do have multiple instances of soft synths carrying individual drum
instances to individual audio tracks, or in cases of those with multiple
outs like Session drummer I do assign those outs separately to audio
tracks.
Then, I set up a single midi track with a drum map configured to map the
keyboard to each of the drum hits I like, and in each case of course they
are each carried on individual audio tracks upon which I can master
independently.
So yes, I do have it set up more or less as you propose. However having
said that, I find that even having this flexibility inherently now in
place
in my templates, I rarely do much with my drums. Sometimes I add some
very
short reverb to the snare for nothing else than simply to move it back a
bit
slightly behind the mix, or sometimes I may use some long reverb with low
early reflections for that sort of effect to the snare, sometimes I might
add some EQ at around 200 Hz to the kick to shape the bass on it, and so
on.
Phil replied: the most problematic area for kick drums is around 400HZ.
You
usually will need to do a little cutting there. Also, I EQ and compress
all
of my drums separately, individual EQ and compression for kick, snare and
each of the toms.
Yamuna wrote: What I do like to do is to compress toms with an attack
time
to create a punchyness on the toms, but I find that to do this you have
to
set up each tom independently either as separate outputs from a drum
instrument, or as separate instances of the instruments which do not have
multiple outputs, to individual audio tracks, because otherwise it
compresses the toms as a group and then it doesn't have nearly the effect
desired.
Phil replied: Exactly. You need to EQ and compress all of your drums
separately.
Yamuna wrote: I already find so many tracks in my projects to accommodate
this kind of flexibility that I tend to hesitate to separate out toms in
this way, for fear of even more clutter!
But then perhaps the clutter is worth the sonic results! Do you think
so?
Phil replied: I absolutely do think so!
Yamuna wrote: Or is there a better way to do these things and get the
kind
of desired results described here??
Phil replied: I don't think so.
Phil continues: 3: did you EQ and compress the bass softsynthe?
Yamuna replies: In Viresh_03 I did EQ it but I did not compress it. As
already stated in Siya On Line I did not do any mastering on individual
instruments. The thing is that I am not very sure of when and how to
apply
compression on bass. EQ on bass gives me a hard time too, because I
always
try to get my bass mid highs to be pronounced enough that they will add
body
to the sound on a small music system for the average listener playing the
song for example on small desktop computer speakers. I definitely need
guidance here too.
Phil replied: adding compression to the bass will make it sound punchier.
Don't know if you have the Tube Saturator in Sonar 8.3 but, I use that
before the Sonitus Compressor then, finish off with a little EQ. If you
don't then, the freely available Dijitalphishphones Blockfish Compressor,
will do a pretty good job in place of the Tube Saturator. Tip, the
Sonitus
Compressor has a couple of bass guitar presets which would be a great
starting point.
Phil continues: 4: did you EQ and if necessary, compress all other
keyboard
softsynthes/parts?
Yamuna replies: Honestly, no! I usually am not sure what to do with them!
As far as compression is concerned, again the question of compressing the
sound as a whole or individual notes for a slightly punchier attack and a
lesser sustain of the notes may be what is wanted, but in this case I
can't
seem to do that with a compressor on a track, of course because it only
affects the track as a whole! So what is to be done with these? As far
as
EQ is concerned on pad sounds, I really don't know what is usually an
intelligent thing to do to give the pads it's own space in the mix.
Raising
the 500 HZ freqs to improve the body middle doesn't seem to do just the
right thing because it seems to create a hollow sound on the instrument.
If
I make very slight plus changes to the gain control then I feel I am just
playing with the EQ for the sake of saying I EQd the pads to myself that
I
did something to it when in fact it was sonically not relevant or
meaningful
enough. So again, some ideas to guide me would be nice.
Phil replied: you will have to experiment a bit here. For example, I
wanted
a pad to sound a little punchier and I found that applying a low shelf at
200HZ, did the trick. A lot of this is getting the mud out of the bottom
end, rather than concentrating on the hi's. Also, if you feel the need
to
compress keyboards then, the Sonitus Compressors comping Synthe Keyboard
patch, is a good starting point.
Phil continues: 5: did you allow sufficient separation between all of the
vocal tracks and did you EQ and compress them?
Yamuna replies: I usually have a single bus carrying my lead vocal, and
on
the lead vocal track I may apply a slight send to the reverb bus for the
lead vocal. On the lead vocal bus I enable the bus EQ and add a
compressor.
Since I do not have a single acoustically treated room for vocals, I
compensate for this by using close micing. I have to compensate for the
heavy dynamics resulting from close micing by using heavy compression,
starting somewhere around -24 DB or even lower, and I use a ratio of
around
5 to 1 to allow some dynamics to filter through so that it still breathes
nicely enough! The big problem with close micing is the actual singer's
breathing or lips moving and other negative stuff which I can't seem to
work
around except by physically removing those manually (what a pains taking
exercise!).
I then use a separate bus to carry the backing vocals, and on the backing
vocal bus I enable the EQ and use similar settings to the lead bus EQ so
that they do not sound like the lead and backing belongs to separate
projects. Here again perhaps with the proper intelligent usage of
separate
EQing I could separate them out better but without them sounding like
they
belong in separate songs.
I usually have individual compressors on each of the backing vocal tracks
to
bring them up to gel together as a tight unit of backing, and then I have
another lighter compressor sitting on the backing vocals bus to smooth
the
whole thing out as a backing vocals unit.
Phil replied: you may be able to get rid of some of this by putting in a
low
pass filter on the EQ for vocal tracks/busses at 80 or, 100HZ.
Phil continues: 6: did you switch all of the EQ's in Sonar from Pree to
post
on all of the various tracks/busses after adding other affects such as
compression etc?
Remember you will have to do that in the inspector as by default, they
are
all switched to pree affects.
Yamuna replies: Yes. I always do this. I actually wonder why Sonar does
not
apply them as post rather than pre by default!
Phil replied: not sure why Sonar does this either. Think it's a bit
strange. Thank God for templates!
Phil continues: 7: did you put anything on the master bus E.G., tape
simulator, compressor, EQ etc?
Yamuna replies: I usually apply over-all EQ on the master bus, and I play
with it from project to project with the hope of shaping the sound
overall.
Usually my standard EQ settings here amounts to brightening the over-all
highs, or deepening the very deep lows just a slight bit with a very wide
bandwidth cue which I have found in Sonar really makes the bass sound
better
on smaller speakers while not booming it up too much on big 15 to 18 inch
bass bins.
Phil replied: remember that if you are using an EQ on the master buss
then,
you don't want to boost highs too much. If your working at 12K and you
are
boosting more than say, 4DB then, you may need to go back to your mix and
make some adjustments there.
Yamuna wrote: I'm yet to play around with that tape simulator you
mentioned,
to see how it colours the audio. Sounds interesting from the help file.
Phil replied: one of Sonar's best kept secrets.
Phil writes: may be able to send the track directly to you or, set-up a
link
somewhere. Would be happy to perhaps consider putting something on your
server but, unfortunately don't have the time running at the
above-mentioned
kind of speed.
Yamuna replies: However it may be convenient for you, please kindly see
that
I get access to it. I am very interested to hear what you have done
coming
out of Sonar's audio engine with some of the better instruments and
effects
and using of some intelligent mixing/mastering in place Etc.
Phil replied: have to get back to work now so, probably won't get this
done
until later on today. Will let you all know when I have sorted this out.
Yamuna wrote: I also have some mischief in mind - that is, to test the
Sonar
critics, especially this good friend of mine, with a blind listening
test.
Phil replied: sounds like fun!
Yamuna wrote: Whew! Sorry for the long post but there was just so much to
say here.
Phil replied: no worries!
Yamuna wrote: Now with so much said here I am all the more eager for the
responses from the group!
Phil replied: will be interesting to see what else comes back from the
group.
Yamuna wrote: Kindest regards to all on list.
Phil replied: and to you too!
Regards, Phil Muir
Accessibility Training
Telephone: US (615) 713-2021
UK +44-1747-821-794
Mobile: UK +44-7968-136-246
E-mail:
[email protected]
URL:
http://www.accessibilitytraining.co.uk/
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------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Tue, 1 Mar 2011 03:44:51 -0800
From: Calvin Botha <[email protected]>
To: [email protected]
Subject: [Jsonar] exporting audio from a soft synth
Message-ID:
<[email protected]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Hay. Thanks a lot for the replies to my previous message about
exporting a soft synth to audio. I am still however struggeling to
accomplish this. Even though i went to the options-advanced tab and
checked the check box that said "play effect tales after stop: it
still stops abruptly. I am not too familiar with selection commands
within a track as I'm still a newb when it comes to sonar (got it last
Thursday). Please help?
With regards to kontakt, I was able to sort out the problem i was
having. Indeed, kontakt is probably the most inaccessible soft synth
out their, but all i really needed was to load a patch. The control o
command did not work in the plug-in GUI window within sonar so what i
did was i found a program that records the action of the mouse and
keyboard to be "played back" at a later stage, basically the process
of creating a macro. Then, with sited assistance, i recfforded the
appropriate mouse action to be performed and vuala, i can load patches
within kontakt!
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Tue, 01 Mar 2011 15:01:16 +0200
From: Roy Shtupler <[email protected]>
To: JSonar -- JAWS Scripts for Sonar discussion list
<[email protected]>
Subject: Re: [Jsonar] exporting audio from a soft synth
Message-ID: <DA4E71625CBA4575AC3DF73175B67C99@DJ0QC33J>
Content-Type: text/plain; CHARSET=US-ASCII; format=flowed;
reply-type=original
CTRL+pageup/down go from measure to measure; also you can use F5 and type
a
measure number.
Shift+pageup/down go back or forward by beat.
F9 sets the From time of the selection , F10 sets the thru time.
so , after selecting your tracks , locate the now time on the
measure/beat
where the selection should start and press F9.
now , navigate to , say 2 or 3 measures after the music ended , then
press
F10.
now export your audio.
hope this helps
Roy.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Calvin Botha" <[email protected]>
To: <[email protected]>
Sent: Tuesday, March 01, 2011 1:44 PM
Subject: [Jsonar] exporting audio from a soft synth
Hay. Thanks a lot for the replies to my previous message about
exporting a soft synth to audio. I am still however struggeling to
accomplish this. Even though i went to the options-advanced tab and
checked the check box that said "play effect tales after stop: it
still stops abruptly. I am not too familiar with selection commands
within a track as I'm still a newb when it comes to sonar (got it last
Thursday). Please help?
With regards to kontakt, I was able to sort out the problem i was
having. Indeed, kontakt is probably the most inaccessible soft synth
out their, but all i really needed was to load a patch. The control o
command did not work in the plug-in GUI window within sonar so what i
did was i found a program that records the action of the mouse and
keyboard to be "played back" at a later stage, basically the process
of creating a macro. Then, with sited assistance, i recfforded the
appropriate mouse action to be performed and vuala, i can load patches
within kontakt!
_______________________________________________
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jsonar.org.
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