Linux-Advocacy Digest #311, Volume #29 Tue, 26 Sep 00 00:13:03 EDT
Contents:
Re: How low can they go...? (T. Max Devlin)
Re: Why I hate Windows... (Osugi)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Donovan
Rebbechi)
Re: How low can they go...? ("JS/PL")
Re: How low can they go...? ("Simon Cooke")
Re: Id Software developer prefers OS X to Linux, NT (Bryant Brandon)
Re: Id Software developer prefers OS X to Linux, NT (Bryant Brandon)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: T. Max Devlin <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:36:11 -0400
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Said James Stutts in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>> Said James Stutts in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
>> >"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>> ><snip>
>> >
>> >> One of the many things I'm trying to change. I don't 'have to' live
>> >> with anything. The law prevents monopolies, and we haven't figured out
>> >> how health care should work, yet. What is your point?
>> >
>> >The law most certainly allows monopolies. Shopped around for electrical
>> >service lately?
>>
>> This is called a "public utility". One could consider it a 'monopoly',
>> in the way the term was used several hundred years ago in Europe, to
>> mean an exclusive grant by the sovereign to conduct certain trade. But
>> generally I think of it as a 'public utility'. I'll point out that
>
>A "public utility" that is privately owned.
Yes. Many public utilities are 'privately owned', generally by an
incorporated company provided the task of supplying the utility to the
public. Such facilities must be managed, and its best not done directly
by the government. However, there can be, due to the nature of the
facility, no competition, so it isn't a question of a free market in
pricing or production. Current theory says that free market mechanics
would provide efficiencies. (I am of the opinion that they provide
opportunity for marketeering, profiteering, and monopolization.)
>Much like the cable
>companies.
Well, my first response is "no, not at all like the cable companies."
Like the water, sewer, and electricity distributors. Like the U.S.
Postal Service, sort of, and kind of like the old "Ma Bell", which is
the closest thing to a real monopoly which has ever been allowed in the
USA. Similar to highways, public education, and public records, as
well.
Cable companies are considered 'quasi-monopolies' because of the expense
of the distribution plant, the same justification for making the
electrical and telephone systems public utilities. However, cable
companies are not exclusive outlets for service; broadcast, and now
satellite TV prevent, to some extent, any real difficulties with the
cable companies, as far as television programming is concerned. Their
contribution to the 'media frenzy' is a separate issue.
>In some
>cities, such as the one I live in now, electrical service is provided
>through the city. In the lower
>part of the state, it is either an electrical cooperative that buys bulk
>power or a corporation.
Yes, all of these are viable methods of supplying public utilities.
>> citizens of San Diego would no doubt agree that it is best treated as
>
>Speaking, I'm sure, for the majority of the US that doesn't live in
>California, I couldn't care
>less what the citizens of San Diego agree to. I used to live in a town with
>only one cable
>service (and a private electrical company). I never really had an issue
>with the electrical service,
>but cable service was lousy. The only option was satellite. Instead of
>whining about it
>to the world, as you seem want to do, one either accepted the poor service
>or chose the
>alternative.
I have no idea what you're referring to. You brought up cable
companies.
>> one, as there is little value in pretending to support competitive
>> markets in a necessary utility with huge capitalization costs.
>>
>> [...]
>> >> >Sounds like your complaint is really with your boss, not Microsoft.
>> >> >Perhaps MS is just an easier target for your venting.
>> >>
>> >> Sounds to me like you're a moron.
>> >
>> >Ahh, here we go. I apparently hit the nail on the head.
>>
>> You apparently are grossly ignorant of reality.
>
>What reality?
The one where Microsoft has been convicted of multiple felonies.
>Your chief complaint seems to be that you are "forced" to use
>the laptop
>provided by your employer as your home computer.
I've never complained in particular about my laptop; this is a troll
which others have raised in a vain attempt to defend a criminal
monopoly.
>You could actually BUY one, like most of the world.
>Then the OS would be your choice. Don't complain about something that's free.
It sure as hell wasn't 'free'. I don't spend "the company's money"
without reason. I demanded they buy NT because I refused to use 98 and
I could supposedly run the products of my trade on it, as well as
maintain compatibility with the non-interoperable Microsoft solutions
which they'd implemented "because its free", or a monopoly, depending on
your perspective.
>It doesn't have to cost money to "avoid the monopoly".
Avoiding the monopoly is a cost to me; money, time, and compatibility in
an un-ending parade of reasons why monopolization is illegal.
>You just choose the
>right platform
>for the work you intend to do.
I chose the monopoly product because it is a monopoly product, which is
to say because I didn't have any commercially feasible alternatives
available due to the criminal behavior of the monopolist.
>> --
>> T. Max Devlin
>> *** The best way to convince another is
>> to state your case moderately and
>> accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
>
>"Sounds to me like you're a moron" doesn't state your case moderately or
>accurately.
That would depend on the circumstances and context, if one had any
interest in moderation or accuracy.
--
T. Max Devlin
*** The best way to convince another is
to state your case moderately and
accurately. - Benjamin Franklin ***
======USENET VIRUS=======COPY THE URL BELOW TO YOUR SIG==============
Sign the petition and keep Deja's archive alive!
http://www2.PetitionOnline.com/dejanews/petition.html
====== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News ======
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
======= Over 80,000 Newsgroups = 16 Different Servers! ======
------------------------------
From: Osugi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why I hate Windows...
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 02:43:31 GMT
In article <8qj4rv$ric$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>,
"James Stutts" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> Actually, the better approach is to not use a home operating system
(Win98)
> in
> a corporate environment. NT was designed for this. While not
perfect, it
> is
> far more stable than Win98.
>
> JCS
>
Why should a "home" operating system be inherently unstable? Less
powerful and less feature rich would be understandable (home users
don't usually need 2 gig of ram or support for 16 processors), but
stability should be a given. Unfortunately MS seems to have convinced
many people that stability is a feature that you have to pay extra for.
BTW, isn't the typical home computer expected to work harder than a
business workstation? Games, scanners, digital cameras, printers, all
hooked up to / running on one computer. Some business workstations
might use one of those, but prolly not all of them. A business
workstation just needs to be able to run Wordperfect Office / MS Office
and maybe some other generic software.
--
Osugi Sakae
I will not be filed, numbered, briefed or debriefed.
I am not a number, I am a free man. -The Prisoner
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Donovan Rebbechi)
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: 26 Sep 2000 03:21:54 GMT
On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 22:03:21 -0300, Roberto Alsina wrote:
>>What *possible* basis in fact do they have for judging anything?
>>About the only thing anyone on the NG can solidly conclude about
>>my design is that it's OO, Orthogonally Persistent, not C++ and
>>is based on multiple types of bidirectional links. That's it.
>
>Basis? Having seen people who talk the talk and doesn't walk the walk.
>Project Freedows, for instance.
That's roughly it. My main gripe here is that the smell of vapour is
overpowering. There is nothing resembling an implementation.
But wait, he's a "high level designer" or "architect", right ? I mean,
it's his job to come up with the brilliant ideas, and the programmers
job to do the implementation.
The problem with this is that any "high
level designer" worth his salt is capable of producing a detailed
design document. All Dick can do is produce hot air and big promises.
One common tendency among the kooks is the presumption that they know
more about design ( or "architecture" )than developers, and based on this,
they decide that they should be the "grand architect" and a whole lot
of willing slaves should toil away with the sole aim of realising the
grand vision.
But trying to be a "grand architect" when you can't code your way out
of a cardboard box is kind of like trying to do a handstand on a unicycle
before you can walk.
Speaking for myself, I'd take unix over his vapourware any day.
( in fact I'd take dos over his vapourware )
--
Donovan
------------------------------
From: "JS/PL" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:37:21 -0400
"T. Max Devlin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> Said JS/PL in comp.os.linux.advocacy;
> [...]
> >You expect anyone with any Linux experience whatsoever to believe that
(of
> >all people) Microsoft?? makes it more expensive to use Linux? [...]
>
>
> Of course I do. Just as I expect anyone with more than half a brain to
> recognize what 'monopoly pricing' actually means, which is that it is
> greater than it would be in a competitive market.
Considering that there IS competition in the operating system market
(see - http://tunes.org/Review/OSes.html )
and
Most of the apps I use cost more than the full version of Windows 98.
Half of the shareware I see around is priced at more than what I saw Windows
Millenium selling for at Best Buy last weekend.
What is this "monopoly pricing" you speak of ??????
>Using an alternative
> to a monopoly product is more expensive than not; this is why
> monopolizing is illegal. Its a shame you cannot grasp the principle,
> but its hardly surprising, in the end.
I use Mandrake 7.1 and it didn't cost me a dime, well actually it cost me
about 10 dimes for the storage media.
What is this "alternative is more expensive" that you speak of ?????
Do you have any examples other than just a fiction based declaration that
any alternatives to Windows are more expensive? Especially when everyone
knows half (or more) of the Linux packages on the market are available for
free, as well as gigs worth of bundled applications.
------------------------------
From: "Simon Cooke" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.lang.java.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: How low can they go...?
Date: Tue, 26 Sep 2000 03:42:38 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On Mon, 25 Sep 2000 18:53:59 -0700, Simon Cooke <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote:
> >
> >"Roberto Alsina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >news:00092522144305.22210@pc03...
> >> El lun, 25 sep 2000, Simon Cooke escribió:
> >> >"Roberto Alsina" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
> >> >news:00092518190902.22210@pc03...
> >> >> El lun, 25 sep 2000, The Ghost In The Machine escribió:
> >> >> >In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> >> > wrote
> >> >> >on Mon, 25 Sep 2000 16:09:57 -0000
> >> >> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >> >> >>On Sat, 23 Sep 2000 17:48:15 GMT, The Ghost In The Machine
> >> ><[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >> >> >>>In comp.os.linux.advocacy, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> >> >>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >> >> >>> wrote
> >> >> >>>on Fri, 22 Sep 2000 23:17:30 -0000
> >> >> >>><[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >[snip for brevity]
> >> >> >
> >> >> >>>> What's this "we" stuff? ppppffffttt!
> >> >> >>>
> >> >> >>>Well, if you've never bought a computer with preinstalled MS
> >software
> >> >ever
> >> >> >>>in your lifetime, then I suppose it would be just "we minus
jedi".
> >:-)
> >> >> >>>(It's possible!)
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> The last prebuilt computer I bought was an Atari 520STe.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Ah ha! Well, my apologies then; I was not aware of this. :-)
> >> >>
> >> >> Why? The Atari 520STe had MS software preinstalled, didn't it?
> >> >
> >> >No - it had GEM, which was Digital's GUI.
> >>
> >> Didn't it come with a basic interpreter?
> >
> >Maybe - but even if so, it wasn't preinstalled.
>
> No, Atari's ROM actually had an OS on it, unlike XT's.
That's true. But the Basic interpreter was NOT burned into the ROM, IIRC.
Mind you, that was a looooong time ago.
Simon
------------------------------
From: Bryant Brandon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Id Software developer prefers OS X to Linux, NT
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:03:36 -0500
In article
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, dc
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
[...]
@>@No, it's to allow people to log in and get 'their' settings (all of
@>@them) from anywhere in the NT domain (read: from any machine they log
@>@in with). THAT is the point of profiles. And they aren't removed ...
@>@what would happen if a user couldn't get domain access - if the link
@>@between that machine's wiring closet and the domain controller's
@>@wiring closet went bad? The local (cached) profile would be used, and
@>@the user would be able to work without any issues.
@>
@> In one way that makes sense, but it still seems stupid. Why does the
@>machine have to accumulate profiles if there's a server around?
@
@So that the machine remains functional if the link between the server
@and workstation ever goes down. What if the machine's a laptop, f.e.?
It's not a laptop. It's a desktop workstation.
@> Also, about getting the cached profile. That's dumb. If there's a
@>problem with the network, that'll just give me old data (in the case
@>that I logged in on another machine in the interim, so what's on the
@>server is newer than what's on the PC) and then, when I log out, if the
@>machine can now reach the network, it overwrites what's on the server!
@
@No, it won't overwrite what's on the server.
Didn't you say the changes would get uploaded to the server on
logout? It stands to reason that the old profile would get overwritten.
After all, in the case I described, the profile being uploaded is newer
than the profile currently on the server. Unless, of course, windows
keeps around a copy of every single session of every single user until
the system is purged. If that's the case, it's dumb.
@> In any event, the way out network is apparently set up, when a
@>machine can't reach the network, it doesn't allow login.
@
@Why do you say that? What, exactly, happens?
It sits there, thinking, for a very long time, until it times out.
Then it comes back saying the user/login is invalid.
@> I still can't see a good reason to let old data pile up on various
@>machines. Sure, it can cache users' profiles so, if the server says
@>nobody else has touched the data, the machine doesn't have to pull it
@>all back over the network. But if the machine is getting full,
@>inactive, partially active, or small profiles should be removed since
@>there's a perfectly good copy sitting on the server.
@
@This is why NT SP3 (I think that's the SP) has quotas. The fact that
@your admins don't use that functionality is THEIR problem.
The system you ahve described to me wouldn't seem to benefit from
quotas.
@> The "let shit accumulate everywhere" system is insane.
@
@The option to do so or not do so is completely up to the admins in
@question - and isn't a fault of NT.
So it can be configured to not accumulate shit on the local machine?
Why isn't that the default? It would make more sense. [i'm assuming
the "let shit accumulate" system is the default since the labs are using
it]
@>@> Shouldn't it at least be removed if a user currently logging in
@>@> needs
@>@>the space?
@>@
@>@That's a quota issue, and that has been solved. The fact that your
@>@admins haven't addressed the issue is their problem.
@>
@> Not if w2k is unnecessarily eating disk space. Also, let's say
@>everybody has a quota of 5M. The machine's C: drive has 100M free for
@>profiles. What happens when user #21 logs in? How does the quota
@>system solve this?
@
@The admins need to think about these things when setting the quota,
@don't they?
Obviously they don't. Can you answer my question? I want to know
how quotas will fix this problem.
@>@> Now I just get a login prompt.
@>@
@>@And what happens when you enter name/pw information?
@>
@> It sits there for a second, waiting for a reply, then the screen goes
@>to the desktop pattern for about ten seconds, then an alert pops up with
@>a message along the lines of: "Cannot log in: there is not enough space
@>on the C drive." If you want to know the actual messgae, I'll look
@>tomorrow since I'm sure the problem will still be there.
@
@Do you know the local machine's administrative password?
I'm a university student in a general access lab. Do you think I'd
have an administrative password to anything?
@If so, just
@log in remotely from another computer and clear off some disk space.
@It's something the local desktop support admin can do from the comfort
@of his office chair; I can't see why this is still a problem -
@literally 4 days (hasn't it been?) since you've notified us of the
@issue.
4 days since I posted, but 4 class days since it started. 4 class
days == 2 weeks.
--
B.B. --I am not a goat! http://people.unt.edu/~bdb0015
------------------------------
From: Bryant Brandon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To: comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy
Subject: Re: Id Software developer prefers OS X to Linux, NT
Date: Mon, 25 Sep 2000 23:04:57 -0500
In article <Z%xz5.281$[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, "PistolGrip"
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
@"Bryant Brandon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
@news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
@> @Sure, if I could look at it. I manage 100+ Win2000 machines and there
@> @is
@> @definitely something wrong with your setup, not the OS.
@>
@> I wouldn't be surprised. Close as I can figure they've got some
@> logfile or something somewhere that just gets bigger and bigger. But,
@> of course, they've got it rigged up so that I can't see if I'm right.
@> They also use Novell Netware. Each machine logs in as a client. I
@> wouldn't think novell would be a problem, though, becasue they've been
@> using it for years with 95/98/NT4 without any trouble.
@
@Shouldn't be a problem, I've got one Subnet that uses Novell almost
@exclusively (for now) and it mingles with W2k fine.
@
@> I suppose my question is: does w2k eat up diskspace merely logging
@> in? The only reason I could see would be a logfile as I said above, but
@> I've seen Windows do all sorts of crazy things in the past, so nothing
@> would surprise me.
@
@Heh.. well, stupid question.. anyone ran a Virus Scanner on it recently?
@:)
Yeah, scans every damn disk inserted. Takes forever.
@But, in reality there's tons of things that could be wrong /
@misconfigured.
@If you can't look at the C drive then there's not much chance of buggin'
@the
@sucker :( I doubt it's a log file unless someone has something seriously
@misconfigured and it's running rampant. I would either seriuosly approach
@your Admin(s) and then go over there head if they can't fix it or satisfy
@you. I'm sure you're paying (in some way) for you lab time, and you dam
@well are entitiled to a working machine. I actually do some work for a
@large school district in the area and we get our ass seriously chewed-out
@for any downtime that limits students ability to perform assignments /
@research. Half the time it's the dam students themselves that do the
@damage. It was sooooo much easier in the past years before every kid knew
@how to use a computer :)
@
@Good Luck,
Thanks for the help. (:
@Dave
--
B.B. --I am not a goat! http://people.unt.edu/~bdb0015
------------------------------
** FOR YOUR REFERENCE **
The service address, to which questions about the list itself and requests
to be added to or deleted from it should be directed, is:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
You can send mail to the entire list (and comp.os.linux.advocacy) via:
Internet: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Linux may be obtained via one of these FTP sites:
ftp.funet.fi pub/Linux
tsx-11.mit.edu pub/linux
sunsite.unc.edu pub/Linux
End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
******************************
