Linux-Advocacy Digest #496, Volume #29 Fri, 6 Oct 00 20:13:04 EDT
Contents:
Re: To all you WinTrolls ("Nigel Feltham")
Re: Why is MS copying Sun??? (Bernd Paysan)
Re: What kind of WinTroll Idiot are you anyway? (Gary Hallock)
Re: 2.4! ("Nigel Feltham")
Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively ("Edwin")
Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes (STATIC66)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (The Ghost In
The Machine)
Re: Why should anyone prefer Linux to Win2k on the DeskTop ("Erik Funkenbusch")
Linux beats Win @$$~! (JoeX1029)
Re: programming languages and design (Steve Mading)
B,U.I-L,D. -Y,O.U- ,C.A-B,L.E- ,B.O-X,
.D-E`S`C`R`A`M`B`L`E`R,`,,,,,,,....,.,......,`, 3391 ([EMAIL PROTECTED])
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Steve Mading)
Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?) (Steve Mading)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
From: "Nigel Feltham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: To all you WinTrolls
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 23:03:38 +0100
>You don't get any of that with Linux ;-)
>
How do the different versions of BSD (freebsd,netbsd, etc) compare with
linux. I have used linux for 6 years since I had my first version of
slackware 2.0 on a magazine coverdisk and now currently use Mandrake 7.1 on
my laptop and suse 6.4 on my main machine but have just got hold of a
magazine covermount version of suse 7.0 so may give this a try on the
laptop - I have not got round to trying any version of BSD yet.
------------------------------
From: Bernd Paysan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.arch,comp.lang.c,alt.conspiracy.area51,comp.os.netware.misc,comp.protocols.tcp-ip,comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Why is MS copying Sun???
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 23:48:06 +0200
Simon Cooke wrote:
> How do you explain that some bugs in Mosaic were identical to bugs found in
> Netscape?
Though the "plan one to throw away" method is a good one, memory keeps
bugs in by remembering how you did it the previous time. Since many bugs
are "by design", redoing the design the same way will also redo the
bugs.
The only way to prevent highly skilled developers from copyright
infringements via remembering if they do the same thing in their next
job is to chop of their head (and keep it in the previous company).
While some US companies actually seem to do that (I've at least seen one
headless person in Dilbert, and when it's in Dilbert, it must have
happend at least two times in real world ;-), we all agree that this is
just another one of the barbaric parts of the US american culture >;->.
--
Bernd Paysan
"If you want it done right, you have to do it yourself"
http://www.jwdt.com/~paysan/
------------------------------
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 18:15:12 -0400
From: Gary Hallock <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: What kind of WinTroll Idiot are you anyway?
Steve Mading wrote:
> rpm is great, but the documentation in the man page is complete crap
> and needs to be re-written. It is full of examples, but none of them
> cover the most commonly needed use of the command: I have an rpm
> file I have not installed yet and I want to see what files it's going
> to install. (Like the "tar tvf" command for tar.) It turns out
> that all the "query" commands for rpm assume you are trying to query
> the already installed packages, but this isn't really stated very
> clearly in the manpage.
The -p option will look at an uninstalled rpm file:
rpm -qlp rpmfile
You should take a look at "Maxium RPM" downloadable from www.rpm.org
Gary
------------------------------
From: "Nigel Feltham" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: 2.4!
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 23:23:58 +0100
>> Those were made with 0.92, if you take a look at the current benches
>> (0.95) with kernel 2.4 you will see a slight increase that brings Linux
>> to a slowdown of as low as 3%.
>
>Yah, sure it does. When I see a 3rd party *benchmark*, I'll believe it.
>
OK, how about the specweb99 benchmark at
http://www.spec.org/osg/web99/results/res2000q2/ which shows linux running
TUX webserver seriously blowing away the Win2k running IIS5.0 on the same
hardware with a 1 processor linux machine being only slightly slower than a
similar clockrate 4 processor running win2k with the 2 processor linux
machine toasting the 4 processor win2k machine and the 4 processor linux
machine performing roughly 2 and 1/4 times faster than same hardware running
win2k.
Still not believe thay linux wins when running equally optimised hardware
and drivers?
------------------------------
From: "Edwin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy
Subject: Re: Space Shuttle uses Windows software almost exclusively
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 17:45:43 -0500
Bob Germer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:39cad71c$1$obot$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> On 09/21/2000 at 05:52 PM,
> Peter Ammon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said:
>
> > The point is that Apple is widely associated with a lifestyle and
> > mindset. Packard Bell is not.
>
> Just for grins and giggles, I had one of our high school computer teachers
> ask 11th graders what they though of when they heard the word, "Apple".
> Only 6 of 87 said computers.
Those six were promptly beaten up by their other 81 classmates. ;)
> --
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
====================
> Bob Germer from Mount Holly, NJ - E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Proudly running OS/2 Warp 4.0 w/ FixPack 14
> MR/2 Ice 2.20 Registration Number 67
> Finishing in 2nd place makes you first loser
> --------------------------------------------------------------------------
===================
>
------------------------------
From: STATIC66 <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Crossposted-To:
comp.os.ms-windows.nt.advocacy,comp.os.os2.advocacy,comp.sys.mac.advocacy
Subject: Re: [OT] Bush v. Gore on taxes
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 23:06:37 GMT
On 6 Oct 2000 14:41:23 GMT, [EMAIL PROTECTED] (.) wrote:
>In comp.os.linux.advocacy Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> "." wrote:
>>>
>>> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Aaron R. Kulkis <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> > "." wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Chad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> >>
>>> >> > "." <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
>>> >> > news:8riija$23c$[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
>>> >> >> In comp.os.linux.advocacy Chad <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>> >> >> > How it's SUPPOSED to work or how it actually DOES work? The two are
>>> >> >> > very different indeed.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> I suspect that no one in this thread understands the details of either one.
>>> >> >>
>>> >> >> One of the very interesting things that people of this type seem to miss is
>>> >> > that
>>> >> >> in actuality, only a very tiny percentage (if any at all) of their tax
>dollars
>>> >> > goes
>>> >> >> towards welfare at all. In fact, until the clinton administration, every
>last
>>> >> >> penny of the federal income tax of everyone who lived west of the missisippi
>>> >> >> river went toward paying off the interest on the national debt. Now that we
>>> >> >> have been running positive for a few years and tax spending has been
>>> >> > restructured
>>> >> >> nearly entirely, again, little or no amount of your taxes go towards
>>> >> > supporting
>>> >> >> anyone on welfare.
>>> >>
>>> >> > WHAT?! Are you kidding? Have you seen a recent budget? More than 1/3 of the
>>> >> > U.S. budget goes to supporting Welfare and welfare related programs.
>>> >>
>>> >> No, actually just a little bit less than 1/3 is dedicated to domestic social
>>> >> programs; ONE of which is welfare. Most of the rest are not related to welfare.
>>>
>>> > Hint fucking hint ... all 'social programs' are welfare.
>>>
>>> Oh really? Does that include federal support for college scolarships?
>
>> Government grants: Yes
>
>> Private grants and loans...no biggie, as they are not taxpayers' money.
>
>
>>> Job training?
>
>> Yes.
>
>>> Etc?
>
>> Yes.
>
>So what would you suggest we do with illiterate, untrained people? Export them?
>Hang them? I think that converting them into productive members of society is
>probably the most long-term-positive option. And who exactly is going to pay for
>that?
>
Themselves, their families, their employer.
>
>
>
>-----.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (The Ghost In The Machine)
Crossposted-To: comp.lang.java.advocacy
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: Fri, 06 Oct 2000 23:10:36 GMT
comp.lang.java.advocacy added to newsgroups.
In comp.os.linux.advocacy, Donovan Rebbechi
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
wrote
on 6 Oct 2000 21:21:06 GMT
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>:
>On Fri, 06 Oct 2000 20:19:52 GMT, Richard wrote:
>>Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
>
>>Everything in the Smalltalk language (as far as /you're/ concerned) is
>>an object that one can see and manipulate from within one's code (in C++
>>classes and primitive types are not objects).
>
>In C++, you can make classes objects if you like. Read a book on
>design patterns some time. In java, even the primitive types are
>objects. In C++, they aren't ( and they really don't need to be )
It's far from clear whether C++'s methodology -- also known as
"well, OK, I can be an object if I feel like it, but I don't have
to be" -- is the best or not, although it works.
Java has an interesting dichotomy, and I'm still trying to figure
out whether the following will work, on a theoretical level.
public class A { public int doSomething(int x, double y, String z) { ... } }
A a = new A(..);
Class aClass = Class.forName("A");
Class aFormals[] = new Class[] { Class.forName("java.lang.Integer"),
Class.forName("java.lang.Double"), class.forName("java.lang.String") };
Method m = aClass.getMethod("doSomething", aFormals);
Object aActuals[] = new Object[] { new Integer(5), new Double(22.5),
"I don't know" };
int ret = ((Integer) m.invoke(a, aActuals)).intValue();
Nope, doesn't work. It turns out that reflection does
indicate that there are classes named 'int' and 'double', though.
(aClass.getMethods(), and search until one finds the right one.
It's a bit odd, but method overloading may preclude using a
more obvious solution.)
An odd modification results in:
public class A { public int doSomething(int x, double y, String z) { ... } }
A a = new A(..);
Class aClass = Class.forName("A");
Class aFormals[] = new Class[] { Class.forName("int"),
Class.forName("double"), class.forName("java.lang.String") };
Method m = aClass.getMethod("doSomething", aFormals);
Object aActuals[] = new Object[] { 5, 22.5, "I don't know" };
int ret = ((Integer) m.invoke(a, aActuals)).intValue();
which doesn't even compile, or
Object aActuals[] = new Object[] { new Integer(5),
new Double(22.5), "I don't know" };
which crashes with a 'ClassNotFoundException'. No "int"!
"java.lang.int" doesn't exist, either. Neither does "I" (see the
documentation on Class.getName() to see why I thought to try *this* one).
I finally got a reference -- within Integer, of all places -- to
a static variable called Integer.TYPE, and Double.TYPE; the
routine Class.isPrimitive() (which is right above Class.getName()
in the documentation -- go fig) has references to these odd little
beasties.
The working code (1.2.2) is:
public class A { public int doSomething(int x, double y, String z) { ... } }
A a = new A(..);
Class aClass = Class.forName("A");
Class aFormals[] = new Class[] { Integer.TYPE,
Double.TYPE, class.forName("java.lang.String") };
Method m = aClass.getMethod("doSomething", aFormals);
Object aActuals[] = new Object[] { 5, 22.5, "I don't know" };
int ret = ((Integer) m.invoke(a, aActuals)).intValue();
Believe it or not! Well, I did get it to work, but it's
not the most pleasing of code, aesthetically speaking.
Especially since Integer.TYPE.getName().equals("int"), but
Class.forName("int") throws an exception.
Sigh.
[rest snipped, as I know little about Smalltalk -- which is a pity :-) ]
--
[EMAIL PROTECTED] -- insert random misquote here
------------------------------
From: "Erik Funkenbusch" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Why should anyone prefer Linux to Win2k on the DeskTop
Date: Fri, 6 Oct 2000 18:45:45 -0500
"Michael Marion" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote in message
news:[EMAIL PROTECTED]...
> Erik Funkenbusch wrote:
>
> > Which top 100 sites, as measured by traffic run Apache again? I can't
think
> > of many. About the only high traffic sites I know of running Apache are
> > places like Slashdot, and they wouldn't even register on the top 100.
>
> amazon.com
I'm not sure that amazon would be in the top 100 sites, as measured by
traffic. While Amazon does a lot of business, many other sites generate
much more traffic than Amazon.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (JoeX1029)
Date: 06 Oct 2000 23:38:11 GMT
Subject: Linux beats Win @$$~!
I just got Red Hat 5.2 installed on my Dell 133, it is the BEST!! I've had
this distro since it came out (halloween 98) but have had only the option to
dual boot because the computer it was formally on (not the Dell) had a real
small hd so i had to make do with a 175mb install (not much there). No GUI,
not much of anything. Anyway I installed it on the Dell with the wrkstation
option. The desktop beats the crap outta win and mac. Even with XF86-3.8 and
AfterStep1.5. God how i've Linux (the only way i've gotton to use it for 2
years was via cmd prompt). Just one prob though, I dont have a job (too young)
and so I have no income, so no net access. Is there any free or cheap net
access (in IL) for Linux??
LINUX RULES!!!!!!!!!!!!
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: programming languages and design
Date: 6 Oct 2000 23:47:24 GMT
John Sanders <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Steve Mading wrote:
:>
:> C++ certainly isn't the most high-level language out there,
:> and it isn't the most low-level language out there. But
:> it is the most "wide-ranging" language I've encountered, with
:> the greatest coverage of both high and low level tasks. This
:> is why I've found it handy. The fact that it achieved this by
:> maintaining old C features isn't relevant to me. That was just
:> the easiest way to get that wide range of depth.
: How can the C features be irrelevant to you? After you defined your
: objects and declared your functions, how would you write the function
: bodies if the "old C features" were not there?
Perhaps you missed the post I was responding to, where it was
said that these features were kept ONLY because of the motive of
making it easy for people who knew C to use C++. I was countering
this, saying that the features were kept because that was the
easiest way to incorporate the *necessary* functionality they
provide, not out of some need to make it easy to learn. I would have
been just as happy with a system that had the same functionality
through new techniques. In other words it wasn't a major selling
point that it achived the functionality through the same techniques,
if there were some other good way, it would have been just as worthy.
It was chosen to keep the old C interface not for ease of learning,
but for ease of implementation on the part of the compiler writers.
That's what I was trying to say.
------------------------------
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Crossposted-To: comp.os.linux.68k
Subject: B,U.I-L,D. -Y,O.U- ,C.A-B,L.E- ,B.O-X,
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------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: 6 Oct 2000 23:55:53 GMT
Donovan Rebbechi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: On Fri, 06 Oct 2000 20:19:52 GMT, Richard wrote:
:>Donovan Rebbechi wrote:
:>Everything in the Smalltalk language (as far as /you're/ concerned) is
:>an object that one can see and manipulate from within one's code (in C++
:>classes and primitive types are not objects).
: In C++, you can make classes objects if you like. Read a book on
: design patterns some time. In java, even the primitive types are
: objects. In C++, they aren't ( and they really don't need to be )
Not true. The main primitives are scalars, not objects. If you
*capitalize* the type, then you are using the object version of
them. "Float" and "float" are not the same thing. In Java's
weird syntax, a variable of object type is a reference and a
variable of a primative type is a scalar.
------------------------------
From: Steve Mading <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: Because programmers hate users (Re: Why are Linux UIs so crappy?)
Date: 6 Oct 2000 23:52:25 GMT
Richard <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
: Everything in the Smalltalk language (as far as /you're/ concerned) is
: an object that one can see and manipulate from within one's code (in C++
: classes and primitive types are not objects). Objects in Smalltalk cannot
: access each other's parts (in C++ friends can access each other's private
: parts).
So, that's one less useful feature.
: Programmers don't need to pay attention to operator precedence in
: Smalltalk, which would take attention AWAY from the objects themselves
: (in C++ you have what, *15* levels of operator precedence?). In C++ blocks
: of code don't exist as objects (in Java they don't exist as simple objects).
Am I to assume from this that the expression x + 3 * y would be
interpeted in left-to-right order, which is plain wrong from an
algebraic standpoint? If so, then that's one less feature.
: OO means "everything's an Object" not "polymorphism and inheritance".
: The former's a philosophy, the latter's a bunch of comparatively
: meaningless "features".
So apparently OO means less useful features then? More pain in
the ass work to get around restrictions that shouldn't even
belong there in the first place?
A good OO language should *ALLOW* one to create good OO code, but
not *require* it for every dinky little hello world program.
------------------------------
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End of Linux-Advocacy Digest
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