I purchased my first lute in 1977, used. it was an East German lute, by a builder named, "Meinl". It was a heavily constructed lute, and it appears very similar to the one in your photos.
It had many guitar-like features, including metal frets and a bridge saddle. If my memory serves me correctly, it may have had an engraving on the belly, where the neck meets the belly, with initials. Perhaps the "M" is for Meinl. Is there anyone on the list familiar with these old lutes? ed At 03:48 PM 5/12/2010, Samuel Jacques wrote: > Thanks Steve, that's why I did not include any pictures in the reply. > I know I myself have parused the list archive many a ties for answers > about lutes, and I am sure someone else will buy a lute similar to mine > and will want more information on it... now the information will be on > the archive! I will no longer forward emails to the list though. > Thank you for that museum address!!! I will recieve the instrument > shortly. Once I get it, or once i get more information on it, I will > post here. > --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Steve Ramey <stevera...@sbcglobal.net> wrote: > > From: Steve Ramey <stevera...@sbcglobal.net> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute! > To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 12:43 PM > > No, I don't mind that you've reposted my reply. I sent it off-list > due > to its length and the fact I'd included several photos, which won't > post to the list. > Yes, my Penzel lute has a label inside. It reads: > Guenter Penzel > Zupfinstrumentmachermeister > Markneukirchen > Made in Germany 1993 > On the label, his first name is spelled with an umlaut, not the "ue" > convention used with keyboards without an umlaut. The label has the > 19__ printed on it and the 93 filled in in blue ball point. > On the back side of the peg box is a black ink on white paper label > with the numbers 9993260, which I take to mean the instrument may > have > been begun on 9 September, 1993 and would be the 260th > instrument/item > built in the shop that year. That's just a rather uneducated guess > on > my part. The numbers 1093 are stamped into the wood on the treble > side > of the peg box right where the peg box joins the neck. Again, just > a > wild guess, but I believe this may indicate the lute was completed > in > October, 1993. > Check out www.museum-markneukirchen.de. It's a place where you can > ask > questions about instruments from Markneukirchen and maybe (or maybe > not) get some answers. Send them a good, clear photo of the maker's > mark on your lute-- pull the strings aside before you take this > photo. > Hope this helps an additional bit. > Steve > __________________________________________________________________ > From: Samuel Jacques <[1]dei...@yahoo.com> > To: [2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Wed, May 12, 2010 8:26:09 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Help identifying 40 year old lute! > I received a very thorough reply from Steve Ramey, which I've > included > below. I hope it is okay for me to repost his email so that the > list > may see it? He replied to my email only. This is my first > mailing > list subscription and I am not sure on protocol. > I thought I would forward his reply as it has given me a very good > indication of where this lute was made. Althought he pictures are > not > included here, he is right - the case is VERY similar to his. My > lute > also has some very big similarities to his, indicating that > perhaps > the > lute was made in Germany. Steve, does your german lute have a > label > inside? > I find it odd that the maker simply left initials on the > instrument > rather than placing a label inside with more information. If the > lute > was made in Germany, that would complicate things for me, as i do > not > speak german and the lute was made many years ago. I will perhaps > contact that maker you reffered to. > Also very good information on the strings - thank you. that is an > area > I have not researched yet. I do not mind having the instrument > sounding like a guitar at this point, I am still learning the > basic > hand movements. > cheers, and many thanks > --- On Wed, 5/12/10, Steve Ramey <> wrote: > From: Steve Ramey <> > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Help identifying 40 year old lute! > To: "Samuel Jacques" <[1][3]dei...@yahoo.com> > Date: Wednesday, May 12, 2010, 1:59 AM > Hi Samuel, > I have a 7C ren lute that is somewhat similar to yours in > appearance. > String length (known as "mensur") on mine is 62 cm. It was made > by > "Zupfinstrumentmachermeister" (plucked instrument master maker) > Guenter > Penzel (you can google him) (or at least it was made in his shop) > in > Markneukirchen Germany, probably in 1993. I've included some > photos. > The points of similarity begin with the case-- mine would appear > to > be > virtually an exact duplicate of yours. The treatment of the sound > hole-- different color-- like smoked box wood is similar, as is > the > "rider" for the chanterelle (highest pitch string). My Penzel > lute > has > numerous guitar-like features-- the raised fingerboard-- it's > not > level with the top of the lute; plywood top (spruce over pine); > guitar-style bridge with saddle; and you can't see them, but > guitar-style braces inside on the top. The neck on my lute is > thicker > than it should be for comfortable playing. My Penzel lute weighs > 1415 > gm. By way of contrast, my 61 cm 8C Dan Larson lute weighs only > 677 > gm. My Larson lute sounds like a lute should, even though I'm > strictly > a rank amateur at it. My Penzel lute sounds good, but it sounds a > lot > like a guitar, no matter who plays it. > You may note that the position of the bridge on mine is farther > "up" > the top than correct lute bridge position (much closer to the > bottom > end of the lute)-- see the photo of my 8C Dan Larson lute for > correct > placement of the bridge and sound hole. It appears your bridge is > similar to mine, except your bridge does not appear to have a > saddle > (the piece of wood or bone over which the strings pass)(real lute > bridges have no saddle, rather, the strings extend from the bridge > to > the nut). Your sound hole appears to be in a more nearly correct > location. > The treatment of the area around the end clasp of our lutes > differ-- > yours has no clasp. > Shortly after I bought my Penzel lute, also on eBay, another of > his > instruments appeared on eBay. It was a 9C ren lute. I've > included a > couple of photos of it, for your comparison, as well. > My bottom line on the genesis of your lute is that it was made in > an > instrument factory or workshop in what used to be East Germany, > quite > possibly back when it was East Germany, based on the metal frets. > The > initials on the top of your instrument would provide definitive > information on either the actual maker, or the master in the shop > in > which it was made. Unfortunately, I have no info to help you on > that > point. > On to strings-- Generally, string tension for lutes begins at > about > 35 > Newtons for the chanterelle, and decreases slightly as one moves > to > the > lower pitch strings. Some folks consider 50 Newtons as beyond the > upper limit of string tension. If your lute weighs in at > something > over 1000 gm, my unsubstantiated guess would be that it is of > sufficiently strong construction that it could sustain string > tensions > beginning around 45 Newtons, possibly more. You might do well to > contact Curtis at [1][2]www.AquilaUSA.com for particular guidance. > He > sells the Nylgut strings which do sound more like gut than nylon > strings and although they take a longer time to stabilize when > new, > are > not so affected by variation in temp and humidity as nylon > strings. > You can tell him what you have and what you want to achieve and he > can > guide you in the right direction. Chris Henrickson at Boston > Catlines > can do the same. > Hope this helps a bit. > Best regards, > Steve > > __________________________________________________________________ > From: Samuel Jacques <[3][4]dei...@yahoo.com> > To: [4][5]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > Sent: Tue, May 11, 2010 8:28:46 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Help identifying 40 year old lute! > Hello! I have to admit I am new to the list, and to lute > playing > in > general. I started off by practicing on a cheap paki flat back > lute > (300$) just to see if I would like it, and I do! So today I > found > a > beautiful lute on ebay that was still relatively cheap (900$). > Now, I know from reading the archive that there are alot of > purists > on > the list - but you know, I love my paki lute since without it, I > would > never have been able to attempt to play this beautiful music. > The > sound might not be good, but considering I have never played > guitare > or > any instrument, I'm sure I could even make a $12,000 lute sound > like > a > sick duckling. > So with that in mind, I bought this new lute today. It's a step > up > from what I have now, I am sure. But now I would like to know > more > about the instrument. The seller could not identify the maker's > mark, > and there is no label inside. The craftmanship seems pretty > good > though. here are the pictures: > [2][5][6]http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/ > and the description (sorry for the size): > * Vintage 8 Course Renaissance Lute w/ original case and wooden > peg > tuner * 640 mm scale * The action at the 8th fret measures .181 > inches > or 4.60 mm * Ebony, ivory dotted tuners * Neck is curly maple w/ > ebony > filets * 15 gorgeous brazilian rosewood ribs w/ an aged german > spruce > top * Rosewood bridge, ebony fretboard and mahogany rose * Curly > maple > and mahogany peg head * This lute sounds fantastic, but there > are > issues that have been high-lighted in the pics * The nut has > damage > to > the 8th course section * It is chipped, but the strings still > stay > where they should * There are various cracks in the spruce top : > below > the bridge, next to the high frets, between the bridge and rose > * > What > is nice about these cracks is that they have been there a while > and > have remained very tight * There is an excellent binding on this > instrument * There is no reason to repair these cracks and a > repair > could diminish the sound quality which is superb * The metal > frets > show > little wear and are firmly seated * Not sure of the exact age, > but > is > at least 40 years old * > So, could anyone here help me to try and find out a little bit > more > about this lute? I already know is it probably from the 70's, > so > it > would be heavy, more like a guitare, and the metal frets are > quite > typical of a lute made from that era. I can't seem to make out > the > makers initials... DM? EM? I wish I knew more about it. > Thank you for any help you could provide!!! > -- > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3][6][7]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. [7][8]http://www.AquilaUSA.com/ > 2. [8][9]http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/ > 3. [9][10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > -- > References > 1. mailto:[11]dei...@yahoo.com > 2. [12]http://www.AquilaUSA.com/ > 3. mailto:[13]dei...@yahoo.com > 4. mailto:[14]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 5. [15]http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/ > 6. [16]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > 7. [17]http://www.AquilaUSA.com/ > 8. [18]http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/ > 9. [19]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > >References > > 1. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=dei...@yahoo.com > 2. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 3. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=dei...@yahoo.com > 4. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=dei...@yahoo.com > 5. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 6. http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/ > 7. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > 8. http://www.AquilaUSA.com/ > 9. http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/ > 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > 11. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=dei...@yahoo.com > 12. http://www.AquilaUSA.com/ > 13. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=dei...@yahoo.com > 14. file://localhost/mc/compose?to=l...@cs.dartmouth.edu > 15. http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/ > 16. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html > 17. http://www.AquilaUSA.com/ > 18. http://s778.photobucket.com/albums/yy65/deides/lute/ > 19. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id=1660298871&ref=name http://www.myspace.com/edslute
