Dear Pieter,
I don't think I (or Stuart) ever said the instrument was invented in
England - merely that it became popular here and the Portugese called
it the 'Guitarra Ingles' (or similar) and that it seems to have been
the origin of the Portugese guitarra. We need to be careful before
attributing opinions to others - that way much confusion lies!
Peter Holman ( note - a none lute/guitar player but an esteemed
historical musicologist) has done some work on this. I recall Hinz as a
possible maker who introduced the instrument to England, but there may
be others.........
regards,
Martyn
--- On Fri, 1/2/13, Pieter Van Tichelen <pie...@vantichelen.name>
wrote:
From: Pieter Van Tichelen <pie...@vantichelen.name>
Subject: re: [LUTE] Re: The English Guitar
To: "WALSH STUART" <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>, "Martyn Hodgson"
<hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Cc: "Lute List" <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Friday, 1 February, 2013, 10:05
Hi Stuart & Martyn,
Sorry to say but the most recent theories say the instrument wasn't
exactly invented in England / Great Britain. Most evidence seems to
point towards the instrument being imported (though it did transform a
lot after that) from continental Europe - probably German (and digging
to further origins Middle Europe). For further reading about this
theory, see the PhD about the English guittar by
Panagiotis Poulopoulos:
[1]http://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/5776
Other interesting reading material about the English guitar I recently
found is an article by Juergen Kloss:
[2]http://justanothertune.com/html/guittarinbritain.html
Just my little contribution to get everyone reading up on the origins
of the English guit(t)ar. ;)
Kind regards,
Pieter
_______________________________________________________________________
From: "WALSH STUART" <s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Sent: 01 February 2013 10:55
To: "Martyn Hodgson" <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The English Guitar
On 01/02/2013 09:27, Martyn Hodgson wrote:
Dear Stuart,
What did your Portugese friends say when faced with things like the
following:
Sad to say, I think they thought of me as the enemy not a friend! But
of course the Silva Leite book is for 'English guitar' because of the
quotes you give below and the music, all duets, has a few pieces like
Marcha Ingleza, Giga Ingleza. The Portuguese are likely to say that the
Silve Leite book, although it's for 'guitarra', it's not the genuine,
Portuguese guitarra with its unique origin in the Portuguese terroir -
or something like that.
The genuine Portuguese 'guitarra' somehow (possibly metaphysically!)
predates and postdates the English guitar.
The Seis Minuettes 'para guitarra e baxo' (Lisbon) of the same sort of
time really are very different from the much simpler piece in in Silva
Leite.
Stuart
" two Portugese manuscript collections (P-La, 54-XII-177 and
54-X-371-5) from around 1800 contain 'Escala de Guitarra Ingles' and
'Receuil D'Ariettas choisies avec accompagnement de Guitarre
Anglaise'
respectively.
The important book by Antonio da Silva Leite (Estudio de
Guitarra,...
Oporto 1796) contains much useful information about how the
Portugese
took to the instrument. He says the best guitars came from England,
the best builder being 'Mr Simpson' and he goes onto say ..' and in
this city of Oporto there is Luis Cardoso Soares Sevilhano who today
loses little in comparison with Simpson'."
But, like you, I can well understand their nationalisatic reluctance to
recognise that the wonderful soulful fado music has much to do with
England......
regards,
Martyn
--- On Fri, 1/2/13, WALSH STUART [1]<s.wa...@ntlworld.com> wrote:
From: WALSH STUART [2]<s.wa...@ntlworld.com>
Subject: [LUTE] Re: The English Guitar
To: [3]al...@signtracks.com
Cc: "Gary R. Boye" [4]<boy...@appstate.edu>, "'Lute List'"
[5]<lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
Date: Friday, 1 February, 2013, 9:16
On 01/02/2013 05:40, Alain wrote:
> I think the English guitar is the instrument that has survived in
Portugal as one of the fundamental ingredient of traditional fado...
Alain,
I'd recommend that don't you suggest that idea to Portuguese people -
they get very touchy about it! There were some very heated exchanges on
the old cittern list many years ago.
Portuguese people (obviously not all of them) see their 'guitarra'
(looks very like an English guitar but with fancier watch-key tuners)
as something completely independent of the English guitar.
Amongst all the other things that can come into play in discussing
instruments, nationalistic ones can come in too. Reluctantly I have to
say that the section in 'The Lute in Europe 2' is, for me anyway, far
too heavily nationalistic.
But I'm not Portuguese. But if I was, and if I thought that fado was
part of my identity and culture and that the guitarra is the essence of
fado, then I might not want the origins of the guitarra to be the
English guitar.
Stuart
> Anyways, I really just want to congratulate Gary on his phenomenal
work,
> Alain
>
>
>
> On 1/31/2013 5:07 AM, Gary R. Boye wrote:
>> Dear Bill,
>>
>> I think I can (briefly) answer your questions:
>>
>> There is a HUGE amount of music that survives for this instrument.
If you check my web page for the 18th century and do a CTRL-F for
"english guitar" there are at least 274 publications:
>>
>> [6]http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C18/1700.html
>>
>> More of these sources now labeled "guitar" are probably for this
instrument as well.
>>
>> The quality? It varies . . . it is an amateur instrument and much of
the music is just an arrangement of a melody--a single line at the end
of a publication really for piano and voice. But I must admit that the
piece Rob played and his playing was disarmingly effective; hearing one
of these instruments always makes me want to play one . . .
>>
>> There is a nice sonata by J.C. Bach:
>>
>> J.C. Bach c1775
>> Bach, Johann Christian. A sonata for the guitar with an
accompaniment for a violin (London, [England]: Longman, Lukey, and Co.)
[BUC]
>> English guitar and violin in staff notation
>>
>> The second question is easy: to my knowledge, this instrument was
NEVER called the "English guitar" in the 18th century. Always "guittar"
or even "guitar" with various other spellings/other names in German and
French.
>>
>> Gary
>>
>> On 1/31/2013 5:00 AM, William Samson wrote:
>>> (Semi) serious question. What music was composed for this
instrument
>>> outside Scotland? - Is it any good? (- the music from outside
Scotland,
>>> that is).
>>>
>>> Second question - What did they call this instrument back in
the day?
>>> Specifically, was it ever called "The English Guitar"?
>>>
>>> Bill
>>> From: Rob MacKillop <[7]robmackil...@gmail.com>
>>> To: Lute <[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu>
>>> Sent: Thursday, 31 January 2013, 8:50
>>> Subject: [LUTE] The English Guitar
>>> I'm no fascist, so if you want to discuss the so-called
English
>>> Guitar,
>>> I suggest you do so here, not in the thread of my video
performance
>>> (which everyone except Martyn seems to have seen). I only
ever said
>>> don't use my video thread to discuss the wider issues of the
guittar.
>>> My reason for creating a separate thread is that it makes it
easier
>>> for
>>> me to avoid. The reason for avoiding the discussion is that
there are
>>> a
>>> few regulars here who cannot discuss anything without killing
the
>>> subject for anyone who has a love for it.
>>> So, what is an English Guitar?
>>> Rob (exits stage left...)
>>> --
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [1][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> References
>>>
>>> 1. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
References
1. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
2. mailto:s.wa...@ntlworld.com
3. mailto:al...@signtracks.com
4. mailto:boy...@appstate.edu
5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
6. http://applications.library.appstate.edu/music/lute/C18/1700.html
7. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=robmackil...@gmail.com
8. http://us.mc817.mail.yahoo.com/mc/compose?to=lute@cs.dartmouth.edu
9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
--
References
1. http://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/handle/1842/5776
2. http://justanothertune.com/html/guittarinbritain.html
