Well said, Ron. Eugene
-----Original Message----- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ron Andrico Sent: Wednesday, January 21, 2015 5:31 PM To: timothy swain; Braig, Eugene Cc: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spruce for lute vs guitar. An interesting aspect of this on-line forum is that one can never presume a baseline standard of knowledge from which we all build in order to form a broad and deep understanding of our shared art. It seems that we routinely receive questions and comments posed by people from all walks of life, and whose topical understanding ranges from absolute zero to certified zen master. All types participate and we attempt to aim for the lowest informational common denominator - but unlike Fox news - with the goal of raising the overall standard of knowledge rather than ensure that all remain as ignorant and pliable as possible. Tim Swain falls into the category of zen master, having been an excellent professional-level musician for many, many years, and a kind soul who generously took the time to show me how lutes work and why the fussy technique was worth the bother. For reasons unknown to me, Tim incurred the wrath of a select group of caustic individuals who were incapable of mature behavior and, unfortunately, were the prevailing voice of LSA many years ago, and he seems to have graciously withdrawn and remained silent over having suffered these unwarranted indignities. He is not alone, and a handful of these absurd historical exploits will come to light in the near future. Nevertheless, it is good to hear from you again, Tim, and I hope you will continue to share your wisdom and insights with the rest of us, amateurs and experts alike, in the same spirit you helped me so many years ago. RA > Date: Wed, 21 Jan 2015 12:42:16 -0800 > To: brai...@osu.edu > CC: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > From: timothy...@clear.net > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spruce for lute vs guitar. > > I find it hard to believe many of the discussion points that come up; > Robert Lundberg (lute builder, who died of cancer in 2001--he was a > good friend--& deserved person of great respect about lute building) > talked a lot about the very same subjects that people still discuss > (as if they're unaware, or the topics had never been discussed > before). Where I live is in Oregon: yew grows here, as do many > evergreens--Bob used to talk about certain species becoming harder to > obtain, & foresaw times when certain species of wood would become very > difficult to get. > > It strikes me that many of the points being discussed are beside the > point--(many, many are excellent & deserve attention)--or maybe I > misunderstand the purpose of the discussions. At any rate, they're > somewhat interesting to follow, although not of permanent interest! > But many of the subjects have come up again & again & yet again... > > Timothy Swain > > On Tue, Jan 20, 2015 at 1:14 PM, Braig, Eugene <brai...@osu.edu> wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > > > > On 17.01.2015 20:54, Herbert Ward wrote: > >>> Do lutes and guitars compete directly for tone wood supplies? > >>> > >>> In other words, do lute builders and guitar builders use the same > >>> criteria in selecting spruce lumber for soundboards? > >>> > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Markus Johann Muehlbauer > >> Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2015 3:08 PM > >> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu > >> Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spruce for lute vs guitar. > >> > >> There seems to be a lot of confusion about what tonewood is supposed to > >> be. Some use the term only for wood that is especially suited to be used > >> as soundboard, others use it for any wood that can be used to build a > >> good instrument. > >> > >> I've looked up some properties of soundboard woods in a book and found > >> that there seems to be a difference in desired growth ring distance > >> depending on the type of instrument you want to build. I guess guitars > >> are not so much different from lutes, so there should be much difference > >> for the physical properties of the tonewood. This leads me to the > >> assumption that the desired growth ring spacing is the same for both > >> instruments. > >> > >> Another much more interesting aspect is the species of tree used. Usualy > >> Lute soundboards are made of Picea abies (Norway Spruce). Guitar > >> soundboards can be made far greater choice of softwoods (mostly new > >> world woods not available in Europe at the times lutes were played). > >> Some of those "substitutes" like Sitka spruce are as good or somtimes > >> even better than Norway spruce. > >> > >> So technically one could say they compete, but guitar builders have more > >> possible sources for tonewoods. > >> > >> Regards, > >> Markus > > > > > > I certainly agree with your bottom line, Markus, that "guitar builders have more possible sources for tonewoods." However, Picea abies is still in very high demand as soundboards for modern classical guitars (marketed to US luthiers under many trade names, perhaps most commonly as "European" or "German spruce" (although I believe very little of the current supply comes from Germany). Given the relative volume of guitar production, even considering "classical" guitars in comparison to steel-strung incarnations, I'd wager there is a pretty substantial competition with lute builders for quality timber. That's only an assumption and I have no idea how what kind of influence that has on markets and production. > > > > Sitka (P. sitchensis) is really only prized in high-tension, steel-strung modern acoustic guitars. I've only encountered a few classical builds in Sitka. Of the North American spruces, Engelmann (P. engelmannii) is probably the most popular for classical instruments. . . . And of course, western red cedar (Thuja plicata) is also prized as classical guitar tonewood, although its favor seems to wax and wane a bit in comparison to spruce(s). > > > > I actually have a vihuela that Chad Neal, a local luthier friend, rebuilt using hybrid Lutz spruce (P. x lutzii) which is actually a white (P. glauca) x Engelmann spruce hybrid. I think it works very well in context. > > http://4.bp.blogspot.com/__F-xZ4YNaFk/SsLPMHXvD_I/AAAAAAAAAAU/wFEGYRuLx Oc/s1600/IMG_5096.JPG > > > > Very slow growth--closely spaced grain--seems the most highly prized feature of soundboards whatever the timber (assuming an absence of flaw/defect like runout, etc.). However, the very few well-made (and sometimes very old) instruments I've encountered with widely spaced grain bring the rationale for that status quo into question. > > > > Best, > > Eugene > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > --
