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Eph Segerman wrote about Mersenne's stringing (and the thickness of the basses) in, I think, the 1970s and I believe he did string a lute this way.  It was partly his feeling that such thick plain gut strings were unacceptable (even to the Old Ones) which, I think, led him and Djillda Abbott to look into roped string construction. MH From: jean-michel Catherinot <jeanmichel.catheri...@cs.dartmouth.edu> To: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>; Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Wednesday, 10 August 2016, 8:28 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: blog post What Mersenne says: has anybody ever tried Mersenne stringing? Le Jeudi 4 août 2016 17h50, Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk> a écrit : Dear Martyn (and All), I'm not ruling out the possibility of loaded strings, but I do think the evidence from bridge holes is mixed, in the sense that we would have to be absolutely certain that a bridge with small holes was original. Even with modern gut strings it's possible to string a 6c lute with only plain gut (well, high twist or whatever) in the bass and also a 13c swan neck lute! The difficult cases are the 8 to 10 course lutes, the 13c bass rider type, also the liuto attiorbato, for all of which loaded basses might well be the answer. I can't send attachments to the list but I'm sending you another painting from 1576 which shows strings very clearly and they're remarkably thin. Best wishes, Martin On 04/08/2016 14:55, Martyn Hodgson wrote: >  Hello Martin, >  Nice site and blog. >  I seem to recall that when loaded strings first came out (25 yrs ago?) >  that some of the evidence for their use was found in the small diameter >  holes in some lute bridges. To maintain string tensions at around >  present day levels the hypothesis was therefore that the old bass >  strings would have been dense than plain gut - hence 'loaded'. >  I also recall that somebody (might have been Eph Segerman) at the time >  also pointed out an alternative for such relatively small diameter >  holes: that the tensions of the bass strings might be much lower than >  the upper courses. In short just as you're suggesting. My experience of >  doing this at the time was that one needed to play very close to the >  bridge to gain any projection and, of course, this is precisely what >  most old sources (from c.1600 onwards) tell us. So you may be right - >  that basses were often(always?) at a significantly lower tension than >  the upper courses. >  Having said this, I did like Mimmo's loaded strings very much and, of >  course, they also possibly indicate loading because of their >  distinctive colour. All food for thought...... >  regards, >  Martyn >   __________________________________________________________________ > >  From: Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk> >  To: Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >  Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2016, 12:51 >  Subject: [LUTE] blog post >  Hi All, >  Just to let you know that I have put up a new blog post - let me know >  your thoughts. >  [1]http://luteshop.co.uk/some-thoughts-on-string-tension/ >  Best wishes, >  Martin >  --- >  This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. >  [2]https://www.avast.com/antivirus >  To get on or off this list see list information at >  [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >  -- > > References > >  1. http://luteshop.co.uk/some-thoughts-on-string-tension/ >  2. https://www.avast.com/antivirus >  3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ------=_Part_20579380_2121427059.1470817451570 Content-Type: text/html; charset=UTF-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable <html><head></head><body><div style="color:#000; background-color:#fff; font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif;font-size:13px"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5559"><span id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5560">Eph Segerman wrote about Mersenne's stringing (and the thickness of the basses) in, I think, the 1970s and I believe he did string a lute this way. It was partly his feeling that such thick plain gut strings were unacceptable (even to the Old Ones) which, I think, led him and Djillda Abbott to look into roped string construction.</span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5559"><span><br></span></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5559"><span>MH</span></div><div class="qtdSeparateBR" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5627"><br><br></div><div class="yahoo_quoted" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5803" style="display: block;"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue! , Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 13px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5802"> <div style="font-family: HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, Sans-Serif; font-size: 16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5801"> <div dir="ltr"> <font size="2" face="Arial"> <hr size="1"> <b><span style="font-weight:bold;">From:</span></b> jean-michel Catherinot <jeanmichel.catheri...@yahoo.com><br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">To:</span></b> Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk>; Martyn Hodgson <hodgsonmar...@yahoo.co.uk>; Lute List <lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> <br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Sent:</span></b> Wednesday, 10 August 2016, 8:28<br> <b><span style="font-weight: bold;">Subject:</span></b> Re: [LUTE] Re: blog post<br> </font> </div> <div class="y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5800"><br><div id="yiv2720726738"><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5799"><div style="! color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, He! lvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5798">What Mersenne says: has anybody ever tried Mersenne stringing?<br><div id="yiv2720726738"><div id="yiv2720726738yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470811701823_9789"><div id="yiv2720726738yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470811701823_9788" style="color:#000;background-color:#fff;font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;"><div dir="ltr" id="yiv2720726738yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470811701823_6315"><span id="yiv2720726738yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470811701823_6483"><img class="yiv2720726738ymail-preserve-class yiv2720726738inline-image-guid-40f452ff-a065-08d4-1874-196d8df0db3a yiv2720726738rte-inline-saved-image" id="yiv2720726738yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470811701823_6482" src="cid:be89460e-7d49-eedf-91ac-166bcbfd1625@yahoo.com" alt="Image en ligne" style="width:100%;max-width:800px;max-height:210px;" data-id="1f875d36-c711-be16-9990-0fe5f103a953"><b! r clear="none"></span></div> <div id="yiv2720726738yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470811701823_9795" class="yiv2720726738qtdSeparateBR"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div><div class="yiv2720726738yqt5440112712" id="yiv2720726738yqt67837"></div></div></div></div><div id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5819"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5818"> <div style="font-family:HelveticaNeue, Helvetica Neue, Helvetica, Arial, Lucida Grande, sans-serif;font-size:16px;" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5817"> <div dir="ltr"><font size="2" face="Arial"> Le Jeudi 4 août 2016 17h50, Martin Shepherd <mar...@luteshop.co.uk> a écrit :<br clear="none"></font></div> <br clear="none"><br clear="none"> <div class="yiv2720726738y_msg_container" id="yui_3_16_0_ym19_1_1470817065891_5816">Dear Martyn (and All),<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I'm not ruling out the possibil! ity of loaded strings, but I do think the <br clear="none">evidence fro! m bridge holes is mixed, in the sense that we would have to <br clear="none">be absolutely certain that a bridge with small holes was original.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Even with modern gut strings it's possible to string a 6c lute with only <br clear="none">plain gut (well, high twist or whatever) in the bass and also a 13c swan <br clear="none">neck lute! The difficult cases are the 8 to 10 course lutes, the 13c <br clear="none">bass rider type, also the liuto attiorbato, for all of which loaded <br clear="none">basses might well be the answer.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">I can't send attachments to the list but I'm sending you another <br clear="none">painting from 1576 which shows strings very clearly and they're <br clear="none">remarkably thin.<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Best wishes,<br clear="none"><br clear="none">Martin<br clear="none"><br clear="none">On 04/08/2016 14:55, Martyn Hodgson wrote:<br clear="none">> Hello Marti! n,<br clear="none">> Nice site and blog.<br clear="none">> I seem to recall that when loaded strings first came out (25 yrs ago?)<br clear="none">> that some of the evidence for their use was found in the small diameter<br clear="none">> holes in some lute bridges. To maintain string tensions at around<br clear="none">> present day levels the hypothesis was therefore that the old bass<br clear="none">> strings would have been dense than plain gut - hence 'loaded'.<br clear="none">> I also recall that somebody (might have been Eph Segerman) at the time<br clear="none">> also pointed out an alternative for such relatively small diameter<br clear="none">> holes: that the tensions of the bass strings might be much lower than<br clear="none">> the upper courses. In short just as you're suggesting. My experience ! of<br clear="none">> doing this at the time was that o! ne needed to play very close to the<br clear="none">> bridge to gain any projection and, of course, this is precisely what<br clear="none">> most old sources (from c.1600 onwards) tell us. So you may be right -<br clear="none">> that basses were often(always?) at a significantly lower tension than<br clear="none">> the upper courses.<br clear="none">> Having said this, I did like Mimmo's loaded strings very much and, of<br clear="none">> course, they also possibly indicate loading because of their<br clear="none">> distinctive colour. All food for thought......<br clear="none">> regards,<br clear="none">> Martyn<br clear="none">> __________________________________________________________________<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> From: Martin Shepherd <<a rel="nofollow" shape=! "rect" ymailto="mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk" target="_blank" href="mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk">mar...@luteshop.co.uk</a>><br clear="none">> To: Lute List <<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" ymailto="mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" target="_blank" href="mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu">lute@cs.dartmouth.edu</a>><br clear="none">> Sent: Thursday, 4 August 2016, 12:51<br clear="none">> Subject: [LUTE] blog post<br clear="none">> Hi All,<br clear="none">> Just to let you know that I have put up a new blog post - let me know<br clear="none">> your thoughts.<br clear="none">> [1]<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://luteshop.co.uk/some-thoughts-on-string-tension/">http://luteshop.co.uk/some-thoughts-on-string-tension/</a><br clear="none">> Best wishes,<br clear="none">> Martin<br clear="none">> &! nbsp; ---<br clear="none">> This email has been check! ed for viruses by Avast antivirus software.<br clear="none">> [2]<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus">https://www.avast.com/antivirus</a><br clear="none">> To get on or off this list see list information at<br clear="none">> [3]<a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html">http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html</a><br clear="none">><br clear="none">> --<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> References<br clear="none">><br clear="none">> 1. <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://luteshop.co.uk/some-thoughts-on-string-tension/">http://luteshop.co.uk/some-thoughts-on-string-tension/</a><br clear="none">> 2. <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus">https://www.avast.com/antivir! us</a><br clear="none">> 3. <a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html">http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html</a><br clear="none">><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none">---<br clear="none">This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.<br clear="none"><a rel="nofollow" shape="rect" target="_blank" href="https://www.avast.com/antivirus">https://www.avast.com/antivirus</a><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"><br clear="none"></div> </div> </div> </div></div></div></div><br><br></div> </div> </div> </div></div></body></html> ------=_Part_20579380_2121427059.1470817451570-- --