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Interesting discussion, though I also know that the human suffering at the heart of the Palestinian struggle weighs upon all of us in this thread. We are all aware of that, despite possible differences. My analysis springs from a realization that all structures of oppression and domination rest upon a layer of what I call "dirty business" - torture, assassinations, beatings, spies, planting of evidence, informers, arrest without trial etc. Those in charge of dirty business are generally kept away from the limelight. Occasionally they are punished when the system needs to look respectable. What has happened in Israel is that the peddlers of dirty business now run the government. They are out there in the open for everyone to see in all their filthy racist glory. As I have frequently pointed out, there is no more Ben Gurion or Golda Meir to make the Zionist project look half decent. Why the thugs are out there in charge of things, I am not sure. It speaks to me of a crisis of Zionism. I can only think that the political conditions necessary for the fulfillment of the Zionist dream no longer exist. That is why that, like the Apartheid regime in South Africa, Israel is fast becoming a pariah. Nonetheless, there is an inner logic to Zionism and it cannot be stopped. The idea of a two state solution is the last chance for Zionism to become acceptable, but it is being sabotaged repeatedly by the Israeli government.. The stealing of Arab land was always the core meaning of Zionism - always. Ethnic cleansing was also always apart of that. I think this is what Richard Seymour means when he talks of the process of auto-radicalization at work within Zionism. It is not for me to tell the Palestinians how they should wage their struggle. However, I do agree with the position advanced on the Electronic Intifada website of dissolving the Oslo structures. That could then initiate a struggle for democratic rights within Israel. The experience of Northern Ireland shows that a campaign for something such as "One vote: One value" cannot be accommodated within an Apartheid state. In the mean time our hopes must be pinned on the visibly deepening commitment of young Arabs to the Palestinian cause. comradely Gary On Tue, Sep 2, 2014 at 11:09 PM, Michael Karadjis via Marxism < marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > ====================================================================== > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > ====================================================================== > > > What these developments highlight is that "one-state" is not inherently > superior over "two states" in all cases. Both have their dangers, both can > be Zionist or non-Zionist versions. Arguably, two states are not viable as > a long-term "solution," but before getting to a full-scale solution, any > number of options are possible as stages in struggle. The idea of the > Palestinians achieving independent political authority in a West > Bank-Gaza-Jerusalem state, via a mixture of military, civil, diplomatic etc > struggle (as, let's say, a temporary stage towards dismantling Israeli > apartheid), may seem unrealistic, but I doubt it is less realistic than > getting a one-state solution of a democratic type any time soon. Probably > more realistic. But perhaps less realistic than this Zionist version of > one-state. Where the one-state solution is not South Africa at end of > apartheid in 1994 but South Africa at onset of it in 1948, with the > difference that the Palestinians will be locked in as a permanent minority > via ethnic cleansing, denial of return etc, thus without even the potential > of South Africa's Black majority. Watch what you wish for. > > -----Original Message----- From: Marv Gandall via Marxism > Sent: Tuesday, September 2, 2014 9:20 PM > To: Michael Karadjis > > Subject: Re: [Marxism] Israel moves closer to a single-state solution > > ====================================================================== > Rule #1: YOU MUST clip all extraneous text when replying to a message. > ====================================================================== > > > > On Sep 2, 2014, at 12:43 AM, Dayne Goodwin via Marxism < > marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu> wrote: > > I think that the discussion on the Israeli 'right' which Marv shared >> with us, is discussion about how an enlarged Israel could still keep >> the remaining Palestinians legally repressed as it already is doing in >> fully Israel controlled territory. It might come to pass that Israel >> has to do something like this for some time while it still presses >> steadily forward with ethnic cleansing, just as it works steadily now >> to take control of remaining Palestinian land within the 1948 borders >> and press remaining Palestinians to emigrate. >> > > That will depend on whether it becomes necessary for the Zionists to do > so. Indigenous populations are not always liquidated or expelled; many > remain subordinated and segregated within the boundaries of the colonial > settler state after having been driven off the best land. I suppose you > could describe this as a kind of internal ethnic cleansing. But the most > fascistic Zionists have to take into account that Israel, a latecomer to > colonialism in an age when this is no longer the norm, is under the > microscope and international political and economic pressure can be brought > to bear against it when its brutal treatment of the Palestinians becomes > especially egregious and arouses world opinion. I think the right-wing > Zionists are counting on the birthrate of their religious fundamentalist > base outstripping that of the West Bank Palestinians coupled with the fact > there is no way they are going to include Gaza or readmit the Palestinian > refugee masses outside the occupied territories into a Greater Israel. This > all presupposes, of course, that no threatening third intifada or war with > neighbouring states erupts in which case both the necessity and pretext for > further mass expulsion would quickly reappear on the agenda. > > > ________________________________________________ > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu > Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/mkaradjis% > 40gmail.com > ________________________________________________ > Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu > Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/gary. > maclennan1%40gmail.com > ________________________________________________ Send list submissions to: Marxism@lists.csbs.utah.edu Set your options at: http://lists.csbs.utah.edu/options/marxism/archive%40mail-archive.com
