Well, for starters the first sentence of the original post revealed the location of a Snowy Owl. And while this discussion stayed civil, it’s probably the only time I’ve ever seen it happen that a “control the _______” fill in the blank with swans, geese, cats, etc managed to remain civil. So kudos to those involved for not going off the rails. I assumed the worst and was proven wrong.
Mike Sent from my iPhone > On Dec 5, 2017, at 2:28 PM, brian.whip...@gmail.com wrote: > > I’m not sure that Chris would have to intervene here. This discussion is one > of the reasons this list exists. Though its primary purpose is dissemination > of sightings, take a look at this paragraph from the listserve rules: > > Questions and limited discussion on topics such as bird behavior, > identification, conservation, and distribution, especially as these subjects > relate to wild birds in and around New York State, are welcomed and > encouraged. > > Encouraged! Thanks for the thoughtful discussion, everyone. I felt one way at > the beginning and another way by the end. Good stuff. > > Brian > >> On Mon, Dec 4, 2017 at 10:32 PM Rick <rc...@nyc.rr.com> wrote: >> Quick agreement with Shai -- by "non-migratory" I didn't mean "feral", just >> populations that in the past may have been migratory but have now become >> sedentary / local, in some or all seasons. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: bounce-122103624-3714...@list.cornell.edu >> [mailto:bounce-122103624-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Shaibal >> Mitra >> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 10:22 PM >> To: NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) <NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu> >> Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] [NFBirds Report 3221] Snowy Owl, No >> >> As everyone so far has contributed in good faith, and given that this >> listserv is devoted to NYS birds of all kinds, not just rare, why not >> discuss? >> >> My perception is that waterfowl are thriving above and beyond all other >> ecological guilds. The explosion in Canada Goose numbers is not attributable >> to the feral component; it is the northern, natural populations that are >> expanding under climate change. In general, we have been finding ducks and >> geese in tremendous abundance and diversity throughout NYS in recent years. >> If Mute Swans are a problem, it is a very small one compared to many other >> threats to our environment. And, as Rick points out, our environment has >> been abused so badly for so long that a lot of what is still here is in a >> co-dependent relationship with past abuse. >> >> For example, there are legitimate (mostly non-avian) rationales undergirding >> the recent fascination with undoing Long Island's ubiquitous, centuries-old >> dams. While possibly restoring fish runs, this policy would also drain >> innumerable South Shore ponds, probably removing many thousands of ducks >> from Long Island--more than Mute Swans ever displaced. Arguably these would >> be ducks that "shouldn't have been here anyway," but what if the fish >> populations don't recover either? But this is just one example. Should we >> invest in the Sisyphean eradication of multiflora rose? Honeysuckle? >> Phragmites? The answers to these various massive-scale questions range from >> "probably not" to "maybe." >> >> In contrast, I think the expenditure of time and money on eradicating Mute >> Swans is entirely misplaced. The potential benefits are demonstrably small, >> and the public relations costs are likely significant--and this is not to >> mention the logistical costs. Why not use those resources and whatever >> public good will remains in this dark age to buy xxx hectares of >> scabby-looking oak woods? If we don't, all we'll have are sterile >> creaks--without dams but also without ponds--built up to the edges, and >> without any woods either. >> >> Shai Mitra >> Bay Shore >> ________________________________________ >> From: bounce-122103568-3714...@list.cornell.edu >> [bounce-122103568-3714...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of Rick >> [rc...@nyc.rr.com] >> Sent: Monday, December 4, 2017 9:22 PM >> To: 'Tim Dunn'; 'Frederick Kedenburg' >> Cc: 'Michael Cooper'; 'NYS BIRDS' >> Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] [NFBirds Report 3221] Snowy Owl, No >> >> First, kudos to Chris T-H for keeping order in our rangy group. A laudable >> task, not simple. >> >> Second, the fact that one invasive (Mute Swans) may be more of less >> destructive than another (non-migratory "barnyard" Canada Geese) is a >> sensible question for discussion (maybe or maybe not on a rare bird >> list-serve, but leave that aside for the moment). >> >> Like many birders, I abhor human intrusions into natural bird habitats and >> behavior (such as introduction of invasives, even though they admittedly may >> have the odd beneficial effect, such as some popular garden plants that >> provide sustenance for native butterfly species, my specialty), and I >> likewise abhor anthromorpic "cuddling" of cute species that cause massive >> harm (feral cats). I also recognize the "PR" value of engaging public >> sentiment with salient "nature hooks," while being aware of the double-edged >> sword nature of such appeals. >> >> Maybe our list serve is not the right place to hold these discussions, esp. >> when they become vitriolic. But what is the right forum? I'm interested in >> having a well-thought-through set of conservation propositions being widely >> discussed and endorsed in the community. >> >> Suggestions? >> >> Rick >> >> From: bounce-122103507-3714...@list.cornell.edu >> [mailto:bounce-122103507-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Tim Dunn >> Sent: Monday, December 04, 2017 8:37 PM >> To: Frederick Kedenburg <kedenb...@optonline.net> >> Cc: Michael Cooper <mike5...@icloud.com>; NYS BIRDS <NYSbirds-L@cornell.edu> >> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] [NFBirds Report 3221] Snowy Owl, No >> >> I agree Fred, as to the context of the conversation. It's not an easy issue >> for birders and reasonable minds can differ on these issues. >> >> I also have no problem with dealing with the "immigrant" swan population as >> humanely as possible. To me, the most palatable solution would probably be >> to prevent more cygnets and let the existing population live out their >> lives, though I also suspect that would be the most expensive way to deal >> with or solve the problem, with the DEC oiling and pricking eggs for >> decades. >> >> Frankly, I don't know how the swan overpopulation on my local pond should be >> addressed, but I'd only be in favor of a dealing with it through a method >> that is decent and humane. I would like to see a return of some native >> waterfowl that I blame the swans for driving out. Certainly, it's not >> necessary to eliminate every mute swan, but my opinion is that there needs >> to be some control of populations in certain places like Argyle Lake. >> Argyle still holds the occasional birding surprise, but native waterfowl >> numbers seem clearly to be down due to the proliferation of swans there. >> Hardly any waterfowl breed there now, besides the swans. >> >> Thanks, >> Tim Dunn >> Babylon, NY >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 4, 2017, at 7:54 PM, Frederick Kedenburg >> <kedenb...@optonline.net<mailto:kedenb...@optonline.net>> wrote: >> I don't think Chris T-H needs to weigh in on this as it is a polite >> conversation of an issue that we all know about. >> Many of us have opinions that will not be changed. That is everyones right. >> >> I have simply this one thing to say: >> I know many out there wish to eliminate the Swans for what they believe are >> scientific reasons. >> I think the Mute Swan, now that they have been here for over a century, have >> as much a right to live as any immigrant does today. >> Their numbers and the damage they do is really negligible compared to other >> species. >> >> Are not Swans now to be considered naturalized and a beauty for all to >> behold? I think they need this protection. >> rk >> >> >> On Dec 4, 2017, at 6:21 PM, Michael Cooper >> <mike5...@icloud.com<mailto:mike5...@icloud.com>> wrote: >> >> Well said Tim, but I think I hear the footsteps of Chris T-H on the way, so >> I'm going to mention a bird in this post and "duck" out of the way of the >> ban hammer! >> >> Mike Cooper >> Ridge LI NY >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 4, 2017, at 6:03 PM, Tim Dunn >> <timd...@optonline.net<mailto:timd...@optonline.net>> wrote: >> Fred and any others interested, >> >> Two mute swans by you is no problem. Up to 65 can be seen on any given day >> on Argyle Lake in Babylon. It is a pond that is less than 1/4 mile in >> circumference. All other breeding waterfowl here have been eradicated by >> these swans. Some migrant waterfowl use the pond but less than in the past. >> Few dabbling ducks use it as swans have eaten all vegetation on the bottom >> of the pond to as far as their long necks can reach. >> >> Geese come and go in migration here, but the mute swans are a constant. So >> I would expect that the reason that DEC wants to control them is that they >> are an invasive species that is destroying the local ecosystem and driving >> out native species. Maybe not happening by you, but definitely happening >> here in western Suffolk. >> >> >> Non-birders are aware of this issue because it appeared in the newspapers >> when the DEC came out and said they would start removing the swans. That >> typically means shooting, trapping, poisoning, etc. Hardly anyone likes the >> idea of culling these birds through cruel and inhumane ways (including me), >> so the subject comes up for a debate that has reached beyond birders and >> wildlife people from time to time. My understanding is that egg oiling and >> similar tactics are being used, or at least are up for discussion, to >> control the population. >> >> >> Since they are an invasive and destructive species, any connection that an >> observer feels to wildlife by viewing feral mute swans is based entirely on >> a lack of understanding of the natural world around them. You might have >> done more for the guy you ran into today if you had told him that if it >> weren't for those swans, he might be seeing ten different species of >> waterfowl that they have driven away. Beauty is obviously in the eye of the >> beholder, but I'd prefer green-wing teal and pintails to those swans. >> >> >> (And sociologically speaking, to me those swans represent the escaped stock >> of early successful Americans anxious to imitate the "Lords of the Manor" in >> Europe, who are the same folks that my Irish ancestors fled to America to >> get away from.) >> >> >> While stepping around goose droppings and occasionally having to hit the >> brakes to allow a goose flock to cross the street is an inconvenience, I >> don't think it has nearly the adverse effect on the local environment that >> the swans have had in my part of Long Island. >> >> >> Thanks, >> Tim Dunn >> Sent from my iPhone >> >> On Dec 4, 2017, at 4:58 PM, Frederick Kedenburg >> <kedenb...@optonline.net<mailto:kedenb...@optonline.net>> wrote: >> Although yes, I do know this issue was posted locally on the NF, yet it >> still has many repercussions to birders throughout NYS therefore I am >> posting. >> If you wish to eradicate Mute Swan I am sorry. >> rk >> >> North Fork LI NY: I went looking for the reported Snowy at the Mattituck >> Inlet Breakwater today but although I looked along the Beach, east & west >> and patrolled the DEC conservation and boat ramp area I could not find it. >> I'll try again as once the species shows up it can be persistent. The >> predominant waterfowl there today was Long-tailed Duck. It was good to hear >> their call once again this season. >> >> After some coffee and a late breakfast in Mattituck I went to Laurel Lake. >> There were plentiful numbers of Ring-necked Duck, Ruddy Duck and American >> Coot. Also seen were one Great Blue Heron, one Pied Billed Grebe and a >> Gadwall. >> >> As an aside: >> There were two Mute Swan in the Laurel Lake compared to hundreds of Canada >> Geese there today. >> Why does the NYS-DEC seem so preoccupied with extirpating all the Mute Swan >> and is doing next to nothing in addressing the vast numbers of Canada Geese >> in NYS. The geese cause so much damage to wetlands and to water quality due >> to the hugh amount of poop they produce. Loading nitrogen into our bays and >> wetlands is only part of the problem. Maneuvering about many parking lots >> and commercial businesses with grass without encountering poop is >> problematic. >> I understand from DEC records that the Mute Swan population in NYS is >> somewhere between 2800 and 3500. Please correct me if I am wrong. >> >> As I was looking through my scope this morning at Laurel Lake a fellow came >> along walking his dog and asked me what I was looking at. I gave him a brief >> description of the species there and he said to me. "Why do they want to >> kill all the swans? He continued to say "I love the Swans, they are so >> beautiful and my kids love to see them as well". I wondered how an average >> person had come to know about this issue. >> >> My point here is that I believe the Mute Swan, although yes it is an >> 'invasive species', does more good than harm as it helps connect people with >> a world around them they did not know before. The Swans in effect connect >> people to nature and help create a culture of conservation that helps us >> all. >> >> As for Canada Geese I have nothing against them; however, to put thing into >> perspective when I do the DEC Winter Waterfowl Census in January I >> frequently find about 3,000 Canada Geese in the fields along Oregon Road >> Mattituck NY alone. Imagine how many statewide. >> >> In my opinion the DEC needs to get their priorities in the correct order and >> concern themselves with a gradual reduction in the population of Canada >> Geese. 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