Just to make things more interesting, this bird has been seen at Stelhi beach for several winters https://ebird.org/checklist/S101927382 Tail spots do not match the Old Field bird.
On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 11:22 AM Larry Trachtenberg <trachtenb...@amsllp.com> wrote: > All -- thank you particularly Shai, for the education. I have read each > post. My it is complicated, and when the Larus experts can go back and > forth without any definitive conclusion, I no longer feel incompetent when > I see a mere 100-200 gulls or so at Ossining or Croton or Peekskill, and > just don’t have the patience to make the effort to study each individually > to identify a second year ring billed gull (but cannot deny the excitement > of seeing Iceland Gull last week). > > > > While I believe I have shared this quote before, Nell Zink, in her novel > (2014) The Wallcreeper (a beautiful and aptly named passerine of high > elevation Europe/Asia, which I am unlikely ever to see in person), had this > to say about gulls, which makes all of us non-Larus-philes feel better (and > say “yup”): “the eerie transformations they undergo on their way from > being indistinguishable to being basically identical.” > > > > A link to the review in The Guardian: > https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/mar/13/wallcreeper-nell-zink-birds-review > > > > As an aside, snipe and woodcock have been seen at Croton Point. > > > > Best > > > > L. Trachtenberg > > Ossining > > > > > > *From:* bounce-126390313-90105...@list.cornell.edu < > bounce-126390313-90105...@list.cornell.edu> *On Behalf Of *Timothy Healy > *Sent:* Tuesday, March 8, 2022 10:54 AM > *To:* akmi...@aol.com > *Cc:* shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu; birdw...@listserv.ksu.edu; > NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu > *Subject:* Re: [nysbirds-l] Is the Old Field Point Bird a Euro Herring > Gull or a Hybrid LBBG x HERG? > > > > *-CAUTION: EXTERNAL EMAIL* > > > > This bird has certainly proven to be a fascinating case study, and the > discussion across the various forums has been enlightening. I always > appreciate the opportunity to learn from one of these community > identification efforts, and I'm grateful for public venues like the > listserv where experts can hash out the details in the open air. The > specter of hybridization always hangs over discussion of unusual gulls. > Documented hybrid swarms like the "Olympic Gulls" of the West Coast > illustrate the need for caution when it comes to assigning birds to > specific categories. I agree that mixed parentage should be considered with > due diligence, but likewise that it should not be the default answer for > any individual that is perceived as looking "off." Many of these Larus > species, especially the Herring gull complex, are so wildly variable that > they can account for many atypical birds even without getting into the > muddy waters of hybrids, potential backcrosses, and the like. > > > > The case that has been made for this particular individual being a > European Herring Gull is compelling, and this conclusion of this analysis > has been backed, at least tentatively, by a few European birders who I've > seen chiming in on different gull ID groups. I do wonder if we'll be able > to gather enough evidence to surpass the threshold of "acceptability" for > such an exceptional record, especially considering that the European taxa > are likely candidates for a split (or according to some authorities, > already separated at the species level) and thus a potential state record > of note. Is there a precedence or protocol for NYSARC treatment of > eminently splittable subspecies? If nothing else, I would encourage anyone > who is interested and able to continue the collaborative study of this > singular individual while it is still with us. As Shai mentioned in > previous posts, some of the finer details of soft parts and primary > patterns could still serve to be nailed down more conclusively. I did my > best to secure useful images during my brief time with the gull this > weekend, but I don't think I contributed anything to the records that > hadn't already been photographed. > > > > Responding to Karlo's point about positively proving the occurrence of > European Herring Gulls in eastern North American, a cursory eBird search > reveals that many records do seem to be immature individuals. Confidently > distinguishing between adults is indeed a prodigious challenge due to the > range of variation in the complex, but a yellow-legged, dark-mantled > "omissus" bird from the Baltic Sea region might just be the best chance > you'd have at satisfactorily doing so. > > > > Cheers, > > -Tim H > > > > On Tue, Mar 8, 2022 at 10:31 AM <akmi...@aol.com> wrote: > > It sure seems that the sightings of the recent Slaty-backed Gull of > Central Park and the interesting yellow-legged Larus of Old Field Point has > sparked some of us to join the ranks of larophiles, especially during the > late winter birding doldrums. I tried doing a little research on American > and European Herring Gulls and find myself even more confused than before. > > > > According to Lars Svensson in his Birds of Europe, Second Edition (a great > field guide - think of the Nat Geo guides but with many more superb > illustrations and captions per page), the American Herring Gull was > "recently split from Herring Gull on account of distinct first-year plumage > and slight genetic difference. Very similar to Herring Gull, and adults > often inseparable". > > > > Shai states below that regarding the occurrence of European Herring Gulls > in eastern North America, "the small number of proven cases is not tiny". > I'm wondering how these cases were proven. It seems to me that the only way > to reliably identify an adult European Herring Gull on our shores would be > only if it were a yellow-legged, 'omissus' type. Or you could try sorting > through first-year Herring Gulls - good luck with that! > > > > Finally, according to the AOU (per Wikipedia), the American Herring Gull > is considered a subspecies of the European Herring Gull. It appears then > that if the consensus on the Old Field Point bird turns out to be European > Herring Gull, it still wouldn't be considered a separate species. > > > > Karlo Mirth > > Forest Hills, NY > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Shaibal Mitra <shaibal.mi...@csi.cuny.edu> > To: birdw...@listserv.ksu.edu <birdw...@listserv.ksu.edu>; NYSBIRDS ( > NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) <NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu> > Sent: Mon, Mar 7, 2022 10:21 pm > Subject: [nysbirds-l] Is the Old Field Point Bird a Euro Herring Gull or a > Hybrid LBBG x HERG? > > Hi all, > > The breeding biology of Larus gulls is very well studied. Large and noisy, > they often breed abundantly in large, conspicuous colonies where it is > relatively easy to observe their strictly socially-monogamous mating > systems: the members of pairs share elaborate display patterns exclusively > with each other (and not with the members of other pairs) over a period of > many weeks as they cooperate in raising their young. In most places, > whatever the species, the individuals within a colony are very uniform in > appearance, and one almost never observes a pair in which the partners are > of different species, or even where one partner appears intermediate toward > a different species. Over more than forty years watching tens of thousands > of breeding pairs of ten-plus species of gulls and terns, I have only once > witnessed strongly pair-bonded behavior and copulation between individuals > of different species (a Roseate Tern x Common Tern). Among non-breeding > birds, I have found a larger, but still small, nuthat tmber of individuals > that I concluded were likely hybrids (LBBG x HERG, GBBG x HERG, GLGU x > HERG, COTE x ROST). Meanwhile, in the course of being out there on the > outer coast, I have found a considerably larger number of extralimital > gulls and terns of varying degrees of rarity, including some very rare. > I was going to begin this essay with a statement like, “We simply > don’t know how frequently hybridization occurs in Larus gulls”—but this is > insufficient, because we actually DO know how rarely it is observed in most > contexts. Most of what little we know about hybridization in these birds > comes from genetic data revealing that, here and there, the genes of one > species are present in a typical-looking individual of another species, > implying past hybridization (let’s ponder the WEGU that turned out to have > RBGU mtDNA). The rest of what we actually know about it comes from a very > small number of observed hybrid pairings and an even smaller number of > marked offspring of such pairings, whose appearance and behavior were > available for study as they matured and reached adult-hood. > These facts are sufficient to imply that we might expect to see hybrid > Larus from time to time; to support the tentative identification of > intermediate-looking individuals as potential hybrids, and to factor this > possibility into the identification of potential vagrants. After, all Larus > is such a grab-bag of mix and match combinations of leg color, eye color, > mantle color, etc., and also so basically similar ecologically and > anatomically, that appearing intermediate between species A and species B > will often result in resemblance to species C. For instance, the various > taxa of Kelp Gulls were initially described as subspecies of Lesser > Black-backed Gull because they share a combination of color values; > California Gull and Armenian Gull share a combo; Yellow-legged Gull and > omissus-type European Herring Gull share a combo; etc. > The Old Field Point Larus has inspired a lot of interest and at least > a moderate amount of public discussion. I have made what I regard as a > strong case for European Herring Gull because every observable > characteristic of the bird matches trait values that are common in northern > (and possibly eastern) breeding populations of L a. argentatus. This > conclusion has received, in what has reached me so far, a lot of mostly > quiet support and no explicit contradiction. The main obstacle is natural > caution, the perceived improbability of a European Herring Gull appearing > on Long Island, and the perception that hybrid LBBG x HERG are common > enough that one might match this bird’s appearance. I believe the question > of European Herring Gull vs. LBBG x HERG hybrid can be settled with a > reasonable amount of confidence, by a careful logical critique of both > hypotheses. > On the one hand, I hear people say, “It’s reasonable to identify birds > that are intermediate in multiple characters between Herring and Lesser > Black-backed Gulls as hybrids.” And on the other, I’ve heard things like > this, “Given that hybrids are often variable and in some cases are known to > deviate from both parents in some respects, it’s difficult to be sure that > a hybrid could NOT match the appearance of the Old Field Point bird.” Both > these statements (I’ll call them #1 and #2) might sound reasonable, but > they are not. The first should be qualified, “It is reasonable to regard > the birds that are intermediate in multiple characters as likely including > actual hybrids, at least in some cases—and records of such birds should be > studied closely for patterns such as timing, spacing, and unimodality (do > they show a single body of variation or more than one tendency?).” The > second statement is deceiving because it accepts the weaker part, and > abandons the stronger part, of the first: i.e., it assumes that hybrid LBBG > x HERG are common, but it no longer expects them to be intermediate. It > must be remembered that statement 1 is not based on comparing the putative > hybrids with birds of known identity (of which almost none are known); it > is an hypothesis regarding birds of unknown identity, chosen because of > their intermediate appearance. I fully accept that these probably include > actual hybrids, but they also probably include a motley by-catch of > pale-end graellsii (North American LBBGs are oddly variable in mantle > color, so tossing off the pale ones as hybrids is a wrong emboyo), European > Herring Gulls, Yellow-legged Gulls, and hybrids involving completely > different taxa. But even if all of the putative LBBG x HERG hybrids are > really hybrids, they are by no means common. Furthermore, just as we are > probably overstating the frequency of hybrids by lumping in other things, > we are probably NOT over-looking actual hybrids. In closely related species > like these, hybrids are unlikely NOT to be intermediate in general, and > especially in quantitative characters such as size and shape. These > considerations also have implications for statement 2, which must now be > understood as referring to extremes of variation (by definition infrequent) > within an already small number of presumed hybrids. > In contrast, the European Herring Gull hypothesis stands on a > completely different logical basis. First, it is based on comparing the > detailed appearance of the focal bird to large series of birds of known > identity in the northern and eastern breeding populations of L. a. > argentatus. Second, although we do not know how often European Herring > Gulls occur in eastern North America, the small number of proven cases is > not tiny, and surely the actual rate of occurrence greatly exceeds this > number. Adult L. a. argenteus would almost always be overlooked as > smithsonianus—as would adult argentatus with paler mantles and/or pink > legs; darker adults with yellowish legs would be overlooked as hybrids; and > all immatures would be overlooked as Lesser Black-backed Gulls. > The thing that is unusual about Larus is not its supposed promiscuity, > but rather its strong reproductive isolating mechanisms, which allow groups > of local populations to show remarkable phenotypic cohesion, even when they > are very recently isolated and not yet sorted out genetically. In such a > system, where the animals are very closely related, hybrids will be viable > and intermediate in appearance. Thousands of Lesser Black-backed Gulls are > right now migrating north past hundreds of thousands of already-paired-up > Herring Gulls and Great Black backed Gulls. None will drop in and pair with > a HERG or GBBG. Maybe one in a million. No not even that. > > ________________________________________ > > > From: Shaibal Mitra > Sent: Monday, February 28, 2022 12:36 PM > To: birdw...@listserv.ksu.edu; NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) > Subject: RE: A Long Island, New York Larus with Yellow Legs > > Hi all, > > We studied the yellow-legged Larus at Old Field Point again yesterday, 27 > Feb 2022. For convenience, here are links to some checklists with useful > photos and descriptions of the bird: > > https://ebird.org/atlasny/checklist/S103596988 [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ebird.org_atlasny_checklist_S103596988&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=ErujVllk1X9j76_xpLIqed6Go6JH6bdsN3mFIVNei30&e=> > https://ebird.org/atlasny/checklist/S103599196 [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ebird.org_atlasny_checklist_S103599196&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=-zug58kTn9_nFePjIzkLPFv57Q4GelzaS-ircD9udhk&e=> > https://ebird.org/checklist/S103599677 [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ebird.org_checklist_S103599677&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=cagRxXgVnG9CbCWYRLkvCR22-9uZ0bThrXN5XBNWtCQ&e=> > https://ebird.org/atlasny/checklist/S103711048 [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ebird.org_atlasny_checklist_S103711048&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=1vmngza-9A30XMOdQity_WM5NQqapafdVc9OZeFD8lw&e=> > https://ebird.org/checklist/S103758350 [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ebird.org_checklist_S103758350&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=HTzHg1mD_mROy5m6D3vsLZqXTOmZh4KHs94qXas03xQ&e=> > https://ebird.org/checklist/S103798052 [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ebird.org_checklist_S103798052&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=tOq83HZrOCE8-ky83_dshB62PBXQAbpexPhyKn4aj64&e=> > https://ebird.org/atlasny/checklist/S103770855 [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ebird.org_atlasny_checklist_S103770855&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=rgMKYJuVqaZJ1pKE5m6i8pH854ntgrJQ6jRP20FJq-s&e=> > https://ebird.org/checklist/S103820434 [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ebird.org_checklist_S103820434&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=_-Mr5z4YGkk1MKT53_yZBNtO-Q69H1wnctCRaWnxHL0&e=> > https://ebird.org/checklist/S103880419 [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ebird.org_checklist_S103880419&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=KGkL4wJ0C4radAZoSBobO8FgpnoI-Hwc7-xH8cAeycU&e=> > > I’m increasingly convinced that this gull is a European L. a. argentatus. > There are many serious obstacles to the alternative interpretations. > > The extent of white on P10 and P9, the restricted amount of black on > PP6-8, the absence of black on P5, and the large size of the apical spots > on all these feathers strongly counter-indicate Lesser Black-backed Gull, > its potential hybrids with various Herring-type taxa, Yellow-legged Gull, > Caspian Gull, and also most “Herring Gulls” (e.g., western/interior North > American L. a. smithsonianus and European L. a. argenteus). These features > of the wingtip are most consistent with northeastern North American > smithsonianus (which is locally abundant) and vagrant argentatus (not yet > documented in New York, but with records from Newfoundland). Published > resources and series of photographs from known sites and dates indicate > that the wingtip pattern wherein these two taxa approach each other most > closely is very similar to that of the Old Field Point bird. There are > several very subtle distinctions in primary pattern between the two taxa, > and the assessment of these in the Old Field Point bird seems to me to be > the primary remaining task (see below). > > But even if this bird’s wingtip pattern is equivocal, it must be noted > that it shows numerous other characters that closely match birds from the > northern breeding areas of L. a. argentatus, and that specifically point > away from L. a. smithsonianus: > > 1. Mantle tone. The bird’s mantle is definitely slightly darker than > in smithsonianus, the pale tone of which is extremely consistent and not > prone to variation (one could examine a thousand breeding Herring Gulls on > Long Island without finding a single bird approaching the mantle tone of > the Old Field Point bird. Conversely, argentatus is darker than > smithsonianus and argenteus, is furthermore described as being variable, > and includes populations described as closely resembling Yellow-legged Gull > in mantle tone (and other features, see next). > 2. Leg color. The bird’s legs and feet are yellow, which is atypical > (but not unknown) for smithsonianus, but quite typical for populations of > argentatus in the northern and eastern parts of its breeding range. Birds > with varying amounts of yellow in the legs and feet occur among > smithsonianus more frequently than do birds with noticeably dark mantles, > but very rarely approach the condition shown by the Old Field Point bird. > in contrast, this feature is common in the very populations of argentatus > that match the Old Field Point bird most closely in terms of wingtip > pattern and mantle color. > 3. Bill pattern. The bill is intensely orange, lacks black markings, > and shows an elongated red gonys spot. The former point is probably > equivocal, as it covaries with leg color in variant smithsonianus: > > https://flic.kr/p/T15pGz [flic.kr] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__flic.kr_p_T15pGz&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=kxB_tosjJ1V1Ma58mQBFPm7w_VT28Z3DAMsBXs4GaRg&e=> > > But the large gonys spot is possibly important, as it definitely points > away from smithsonianus. On Long Island, we are accustomed to interpreting > an elongated red gonys spot as indicative of Lesser Black-backed Gull, and > this was a source of confusion in initial assessments of the present bird. > Interestingly, this feature is apparently not unexpected among those > argentatus that most resemble the OFP bird (dark-mantled, bright-billed, > and restricted black in the wingtip): > > http://www.gull-research.org/hg/hg5cy/adapr47.html [gull-research.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.gull-2Dresearch.org_hg_hg5cy_adapr47.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=L4urytUGvJvJgkuSliBrR2dFY_mTk7cTPfQg5WDAQO4&e=> > > 4. Orbital ring. The orbital ring appears to be red based on photos > and some descriptions, though I have not been able to confirm this fully to > my own satisfaction. If so, this points strongly away from smithsonianus, > but again, it is expected, in correlation with all the characters discussed > above, among northern argentatus. > > Before concluding with a brief description of our remaining work regarding > the minutiae of the wingtip pattern, I feel the need to emphasize again > that this bird’s resemblance to a hybrid LBBG x HERG in several ways > (mantle tone, leg color, and gonys spot) is nevertheless superficial. For > one thing, the bright yellow leg color is brighter than that observed in > putative hybrids. But more importantly, its overall structure is > Herring-like, and its wingtip pattern is at the extreme end of variation in > smithsonianus, in the direction away from, not toward, the condition in > Lesser Black-backed Gull. > > Here is what remains to be done: > > 5. Nail down the color of the orbital ring and gape. > 6. The shape of the large, broken mirror on P9 is distinctive—what > does it mean? (Example of a similar wingtip and details of p9 from Belgium > 1 Mar: https://macaulaylibrary.org/asset/212753731 [macaulaylibrary.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__macaulaylibrary.org_asset_212753731&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=N--igdR150yBQA_7MmHO5e1JNR-ZDxcc6wBj2RovZwM&e=> > ) > 7. Do the lengths or shapes of the pale tongues in PP7-8 favor either > taxon? > 8. The black band on P6 shows a very slight W shape. This is ascribed > to smithsonianus but is readily found in photos of European Herring Gulls, > at least of ssp. argenteus: > > http://www.gull-research.org/hg/hg5cy/adfeb66.html [gull-research.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.gull-2Dresearch.org_hg_hg5cy_adfeb66.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=f02G3sn0LV_H2WI1aaigVsNplCRf5VlHDg4lrs-5Rbk&e=> > > For the sake of thoroughness, these points should be resolved and assessed > with regard to northeastern smithsonianus vs. northern argentatus. But it > seems to me that characters 5-8 could only weakly support smithsonianus or > counter-indicate argentatus, whereas characters 1-3 pose very serious > obstacles for smithsonianus and match northern argentatus to a surprisingly > detailed degree. > > Finally, in going back through my photos of variant Herring and Great > Black-backed Gulls with yellow legs, I found another bird (from 3 May 2014) > that is suggestive of argentatus: > > https://flic.kr/p/RV27qh [flic.kr] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__flic.kr_p_RV27qh&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=1uPnJRSVm7KPufJyWrwD0z7IlAGHQFbehCeD_HCejnk&e=> > > Shai Mitra > Bay Shore > > ________________________________________ > From: Shaibal Mitra > Sent: Thursday, February 24, 2022 8:47 AM > To: birdw...@listserv.ksu.edu; NYSBIRDS (NYSBIRDS-L@cornell.edu) > Subject: A Long Island, New York Larus with Yellow Legs > > Dear ID Frontiers NYSBirds, > > I would appreciate feedback regarding an adult yellow-legged Larus found > 22 Feb at Old Field Point, on the north shore of central Long Island, New > York. > > Broadly speaking, it is a Herring Gull type, but there are reasons to > doubt each of the usual (and less usual) interpretations of Herring-like > gulls with yellow legs in this region at this time of year. > > Most often, such birds prove to be otherwise typical smithsonianus Herring > Herring Gulls, which regularly show some degree of yellow color in the legs > and feet in late winter and early spring (as do small numbers of local > Great Black-backed Gulls). Another frequent interpretation is Herring Gull > x Lesser Black-backed Gull hybrid, which the original finder, Patrice > Domeischel, considered in the present case because of the bird's slightly > darker than smithsonianus mantle. A third possibility, always present in > the minds of New York gull aficionados, is Yellow-legged Gull, which was > considered by Patrice, and also by Peter Osswald, who independently found > the bird on 23 Feb. > > Patricia Lindsay and I studied the bird yesterday afternoon (23 Feb), and > I have reservations about all three of these hypotheses, which are > explained in my eBird report (link below). Briefly, Yellow-legged Gull is > counter-indicated by this bird's heavier than expected head and nape > streaking; it's notably large (larger than typical smithsonianus) apical > spots on the primaries; and other details of the wingtip pattern (more > white, less black than typical for smithsonianus, let along Yellow-legged > Gull). The latter two points regarding the primaries also point away from > Lesser Black-backed Gull ancestry. Finally, American Herring Gull is > problematic by virtue of the subtly (but clearly) darker than typical > mantle tone; the completely clear yellow tones of the the legs and feet; > and details of the wingtip pattern. I could not see the orbital ring color. > Photos by Patrice and Barbara Lagois seem to show it is red, but are not > decisive on this point, in my opinion. > > I wonder if this bird might represent a yellow-legged example of northern > European L. a. argentatus, which I do not know well in life, but which is > described as having a slightly darker mantle tone than smithsonianus, a > wingtip pattern very similar to the present bird, and a relatively high > incidence of yellow leg color. > > My preliminary analysis (with photos by Barbara Lagois) and two of > Patrice's checklists, also with excellent photos can be found here: > > https://ebird.org/checklist/S103599677 [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ebird.org_checklist_S103599677&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=cagRxXgVnG9CbCWYRLkvCR22-9uZ0bThrXN5XBNWtCQ&e=> > https://ebird.org/atlasny/checklist/S103599196 [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ebird.org_atlasny_checklist_S103599196&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=-zug58kTn9_nFePjIzkLPFv57Q4GelzaS-ircD9udhk&e=> > https://ebird.org/atlasny/checklist/S103596988 [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=https-3A__ebird.org_atlasny_checklist_S103596988&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=ErujVllk1X9j76_xpLIqed6Go6JH6bdsN3mFIVNei30&e=> > > Shai Mitra > Bay Shore, New York > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME.htm [northeastbirding.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.northeastbirding.com_NYSbirdsWELCOME.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=Ey9w_5vU6rA0qZ9vbNERpBdEf3h1ThnuMmd0Uzhj250&e=> > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES.htm [northeastbirding.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.northeastbirding.com_NYSbirdsRULES.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=vnkq4uJqHt1TcHM0Biug6BX7yJ7rL4MiM2qaJwGrzwE&e=> > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm > [northeastbirding.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.northeastbirding.com_NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=opZ2vw-nUXjDOWnWm04gO-UFk-uW2QcCQqJpat1LJHc&e=> > > ARCHIVES: > 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html > [mail-archive.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mail-2Darchive.com_nysbirds-2Dl-40cornell.edu_maillist.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=qamqWHbqqQUNqrVIW9t1ph4URBN5TzTWIQs3gKwoAU0&e=> > 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L [surfbirds.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.surfbirds.com_birdingmail_Group_NYSBirds-2DL&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=n4xi-NU6OZmvzJz8mgkjR-hN4QMDfUB3f63xkKx3Ih0&e=> > 3) http://birding.aba.org/maillist/NY01 [birding.aba.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__birding.aba.org_maillist_NY01&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=-TvXN7gNwFTj_j1YqrSDEdjRba0QpGd9mzXRg_vamX8&e=> > > Please submit your observations to eBird: > http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__ebird.org_content_ebird_&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=qe_AQ8dJh0ihfUJDXEZO8OE24o-nYp_71mdL58u-h-Q&e=> > > -- > > -- > > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > > Welcome and Basics [northeastbirding.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.northeastbirding.com_NYSbirdsWELCOME.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=Ey9w_5vU6rA0qZ9vbNERpBdEf3h1ThnuMmd0Uzhj250&e=> > > Rules and Information [northeastbirding.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.northeastbirding.com_NYSbirdsRULES.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=vnkq4uJqHt1TcHM0Biug6BX7yJ7rL4MiM2qaJwGrzwE&e=> > > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave [northeastbirding.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.northeastbirding.com_NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=opZ2vw-nUXjDOWnWm04gO-UFk-uW2QcCQqJpat1LJHc&e=> > > *Archives:* > > The Mail Archive [mail-archive.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mail-2Darchive.com_nysbirds-2Dl-40cornell.edu_maillist.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=qamqWHbqqQUNqrVIW9t1ph4URBN5TzTWIQs3gKwoAU0&e=> > > Surfbirds [surfbirds.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.surfbirds.com_birdingmail_Group_NYSBirds-2DL&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=n4xi-NU6OZmvzJz8mgkjR-hN4QMDfUB3f63xkKx3Ih0&e=> > > ABA [birding.aba.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__birding.aba.org_maillist_NY01&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=-TvXN7gNwFTj_j1YqrSDEdjRba0QpGd9mzXRg_vamX8&e=> > > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__ebird.org_content_ebird_&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=qe_AQ8dJh0ihfUJDXEZO8OE24o-nYp_71mdL58u-h-Q&e=> > *!* > > -- > > -- > > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > > Welcome and Basics [northeastbirding.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.northeastbirding.com_NYSbirdsWELCOME.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=Ey9w_5vU6rA0qZ9vbNERpBdEf3h1ThnuMmd0Uzhj250&e=> > > Rules and Information [northeastbirding.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.northeastbirding.com_NYSbirdsRULES.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=vnkq4uJqHt1TcHM0Biug6BX7yJ7rL4MiM2qaJwGrzwE&e=> > > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave [northeastbirding.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.northeastbirding.com_NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=opZ2vw-nUXjDOWnWm04gO-UFk-uW2QcCQqJpat1LJHc&e=> > > *Archives:* > > The Mail Archive [mail-archive.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.mail-2Darchive.com_nysbirds-2Dl-40cornell.edu_maillist.html&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=qamqWHbqqQUNqrVIW9t1ph4URBN5TzTWIQs3gKwoAU0&e=> > > Surfbirds [surfbirds.com] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__www.surfbirds.com_birdingmail_Group_NYSBirds-2DL&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=n4xi-NU6OZmvzJz8mgkjR-hN4QMDfUB3f63xkKx3Ih0&e=> > > ABA [birding.aba.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__birding.aba.org_maillist_NY01&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=-TvXN7gNwFTj_j1YqrSDEdjRba0QpGd9mzXRg_vamX8&e=> > > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* [ebird.org] > <https://urldefense.proofpoint.com/v2/url?u=http-3A__ebird.org_content_ebird_&d=DwMFaQ&c=dpn1WjMMQGUYKOlM1k1w3OIaMfTHNTwPoUrrILOsxvs&r=NwFWAUOlLbz1fEv1wZE8gwFOElNPUvOXd2Pih8klMD8&m=NeXWpeZh-cWmBaypOb6PW_35mAf4OeK1xD0PakL5Inw&s=qe_AQ8dJh0ihfUJDXEZO8OE24o-nYp_71mdL58u-h-Q&e=> > *!* > > -- > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics <http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME.htm> > Rules and Information <http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES.htm> > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > <http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm> > *Archives:* > The Mail Archive > <http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html> > Surfbirds <http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L> > ABA <http://birding.aba.org/maillist/NY01> > *Please submit your observations to **eBird* > <http://ebird.org/content/ebird/>*!* > -- > -- Jennifer Wilson-Pines -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME.htm http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES.htm http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birding.aba.org/maillist/NY01 Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
