On Aug 30, 2010, at 4:28 AM, Sudhakar Krishnamachari wrote:
>
> Good to see some of the concerns addressed.
>
> "
> Now so far I do not see companies really putting effort so may be nothing
> will happen but this will not be
> because of us. :)"
>
>
> This is the chicken and egg situation. Bar highly motivated startups with
> some money in their pockets to splurge on with. The average co consists of
> average managers who want no risk..!. They want a technology they can blame
> for its shortcomings/ the support offered by another co if they are stuck for
> a fix. But in most ( I would say 90+% of timeline) cases the business
> continuity should not be affected.
Sure this is clear.
Now my point is pragmatic.
> The average company will probably not invest their time on a technology if it
> does not meet the bar set by the current technology.
Well lot of companies are using seaside and pharo and as such the fact that the
infrastructure is getting better is important.
>
> Let me take Spring Architecture as an example in the Java world. J2EE was (
> and to an extent is) entrenched in the world of Java enterprise. Way back
> about 8 yrs back or so .. Rod Johnson started his foray in to simplifying the
> complexity of J2EE with his framework. I would say through atleast 4+ yrs of
> the 8 he would have close to nil support from any company and like the Jim
> Collins "Good to Great" simile built up the giant wheel momentum now to
> engage nearly all known companies to use Spring all through instead of J2EE
> except in the niche cases. Its is an instruction to notice how Spring got
> interfaces to nearly all of Java connected that would be possibly needed for
> a medium enterprise case and then went into the depths/ specialization etc..
> that is breadth first and then the depth.
>
> So I would say "WE" (including myself as a avowed Smaltalker) need to keep
> trying and pushing for a concerted go at getting Pharo up there.. and
> possibly the "GiantWheel momentum" will kick in with first a few co's and
> then more.. to push this rolling with god speed to its eventual
> greatness..!!..
welcome!
> And that indeed is happening and its suprised me how far Pharo has already
> rolled and is building a momentum that is sure to go far if I can put my
> little effort as all others to get some of the minimal frameworks integrated.
we need help
> We have either of two approaches to take: meet up to the current bar set by
> Java/ .Net world in terms of programming baseline ( as I listed in the prior
> mail) or take a radical approach that differs so much and offers so much to
> pull in others..like Rails did. I would say if we are interested in the
> numbers game I would choose the former, if we wish to retain the intellectual
> high ground and move on the latter is fine..
we can have a vision, a vision without action does not exist.
What we are doing are
- providing robust infrastructure
- making the system lean and clean
- slowly rewriting parts
now if people with other agendas want to focus on other parts we are more than
happy.
>
> To get the numbers to have an interest in Pharo I will go back to my charter
> for Smalltalk spread in Universities / Colleges ( the underlying reason I
> started SmalltalkIndia) and see how far it can be resuscitated to create a
> mass base of users ( even if they are amateurs) and then hope a good
> percentage of them retain a greater interest to contribute spare time to
> improve the frameworks in Pharo.
Would be great. Let me know how I can help
Do you know I have free slides?
http://stephane.ducasse.free.fr/Resources/LecturesInPowerpoint/
> *************************
> Just count how many smalltalkers we can get in a low cost centers who can
> code.. well
> Contrast this with how many Java programmers you can get.. can manage with
> google/ info base available
>
> Count the external frameworks open source developed , tested and trustable to
> be used in production code from Java nearly all free.
> Count the same for Smalltalk
>
> App servers.. comparable to Websphere/ weblogic/ Tomcat / lots of others, not
> to mention messaging queue, transaction control , JDBC like framework for
> nearly all DBs with high performance guaranteed, the list goes on..
>
> The support logistics in terms CMS: viz SVN kinds, better integration /
> build systems like maven etc.. and evolutions in terms of frameworks that
> Java has spewed.. .Net in its Visual Studio et als..
>
> Good brains together can counter all of the above arguments, but that is a
> limitation by itself, you cannot get good 25-50brains in one premises to work
> together on one single product, even if you do have them you cannot easily
> replace them with new recruits and be cost effective in general.
>
> From an ease of development and risk free managment angle, I find this an
> impossible proposition to convince any mgmt to take up Smalltalk for their
> dev.
>
> The target is the average developer, the risk averse corporate entity in all
> its evolution whether its .Net or Java.
>
> For all the reasons above, corporate use of ST is a difficult game for niche
> languages like Smalltalk, but a target I would like to see achieved in the
> near term..
>
> *********************************
>
> -Skrish
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 29, 2010 at 8:32 PM, Sudhakar Krishnamachari
> <skrishnamach...@gmail.com> wrote:
> My two cents long time in my blog on exactly the same subject:
>
> -Skrish
>
>
>
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