On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Stéphane Ducasse < stephane.duca...@inria.fr> wrote:
> Hi pharoers > > What do you think? > I think that we should not have any software parts whose license is not set > clearly in Pharo. > So I will remove WebClient from Pharo. > It can still be maintained as an external package and it seems it's Andreas intent. Anyway, WebClient must have a licence. No licence means nobody can use it (even Squeak). So I would like to know the licence before any decision. PS: I don't understand the '(code) forks are evil' statement, I think it encourages "project forks" and closes contribution. This currently happens it seems. Reminds me the squeak-vm on github thread ..... Laurent I suggest that the people that want and know, group together and build an > open-source one. > Stef > > > > On Aug 30, 2010, at 12:00 AM, Andreas Raab wrote: > > > Hi Sven, > > > > [cc: pharo list since I think there are some larger issues to discuss] > > > > First of all thank you for your continued interest in WebClient. It is > nice to see that people like to use it. However, I'm more than a bit > surprised about what you are saying below about having WebClient in Pharo > 1.2. Honestly, I was dumbfounded when I went to read some of the discussions > on the Pharo list. > > > > May I ask what the due diligence process is for including packages in > Pharo? I would have expected that the process includes 1) checking the > project page on SS for the license and 2) sending the author a courtesy note > along the lines of "hey we want to include your code, are you okay with > that?" (in particular if the author of the package isn't on the Pharo list > and consequently has no clue about what you're doing). > > > > 1. Regarding WebClient's license, please have a look at any of the > following repositories, all of which are under MIT: > > > > http://www.squeaksource.com/Balloon3D.html > > http://www.squeaksource.com/CroquetGL.html > > http://www.squeaksource.com/ToolBuilder.html > > http://www.squeaksource.com/TweakCore.html > > ... etc ... > > > > As you can see, when I mean to put code under the MIT license, I try to > state that by including a copy of the license on the front page of the > repository as well as setting the license field. Contrary to, for example, > the following repositories: > > > > http://www.squeaksource.com/ar.html > > http://www.squeaksource.com/SqueakSSL.html > > http://www.squeaksource.com/WebClient.html > > > > which are not (or not yet) under MIT. Obviously, I'm trying to be as > clear as possible on these matters, which is why I was pointing out that > your repository incorrectly claims that the version of WebClient in it is > LGPLv2. I'm surprised (and shocked) that apparently nobody in Pharo even > tries to find out what the license status for WebClient is. > > > > 2. Regarding my intentions / position you'll have to keep in mind that I > don't read the Pharo list. I tried to follow it in the past only to be faced > with several vicious attacks against Squeak and myself and as a consequence > I stopped reading it. Consequently, this is the first time anyone has ever > mentioned the inclusion of WebClient in Pharo to me. > > > > In short, my position is that we need more shared libraries, not more > forks. You will probably see the irony that I specifically didn't set a > license on WebClient to prevent such forks without any prior discussion > (under the hopelessly naive assumption that there would be some sort of due > diligence process) only to find out that you've forked WebClient already. > How very ironic indeed. > > > > Because of my position above, I think WebClient should be an external > package, loaded for example via Metacello configuration. In fact, that's > exactly why I provided a Metacello configuration to begin with. Can someone > perhaps explain where the urge to include (and consequently fork) WebClient > comes from? WebClient is a perfectly good external package and for the time > being I prefer it should stay that way. If you want to replace HTTPSocket, > then have a look at Squeak 4.2 which contains a very simple HTTPSocket > implementation that has hooks so that WebClient will be used if it's loaded. > > > > Regarding fixes for Pharo, as far as I know the only changes that I > haven't included was a bunch of #asString sprinkled all over the places, and > the abominations of replacing #squeakToUtf8 and #utf8ToSqueak with > "convert[From|To]WithConverter: UTF8TextConverter new". On both of these > issues I feel very strongly; I will not make the code substantially worse > only to deal with shortcomings of Pharo. So if you cannot come to a > reasonable resolution for these, you'll need the extension methods. Outside > of that, I believe that not only have I integrated all the fixes that have > been sent to me, I have also added several patches to WebClient-Pharo that > provide important fixes for (in Pharo broken) network operations without > which WebClient would not work in any released Pharo versions. > > > > Summary: > > * I'm surprised and I'm shocked to see that there is apparently no due > diligence regarding new packages in Pharo. I find this in particular > shocking giving the wild claims on the Pharo web site that "From the > beginning of Pharo we have maintained a strict rule that every contributor > has to sign our license agreement." I haven't. (and geez, when did Michael > got dropped from the Pharo board?) > > > > * I don't want WebClient to be included in Pharo since this means you > will be producing a Pharo-only fork of WebClient which is counter-productive > from my perspective. I want WebClient to remain a shared loadable package > with a canonical source repository available to all forks of Squeak, > including Pharo. > > > > * I have, and will continue to do so, integrate fixes for Pharo as long > as I consider them reasonable. If there is interest, I can also provide an > updated Metacello configuration; although that really just boils down to > updating it to the latest package versions. > > > > Cheers, > > - Andreas > > > > On 8/29/2010 4:43 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > >> Andreas, > >> > >> The lastest fiddling that I did is now in PharoInBox: > >> > >> Name: WebClient-Core-SvenVanCaekenberghe.74 > >> Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe > >> Time: 27 August 2010, 1:59:46 pm > >> UUID: d97ff218-9bde-4259-bf8a-f9d0fe116138 > >> Ancestors: WebClient-Core-StephaneDucasse.73, WebClient-Core-pmm.73 > >> > >> merged in pharo-core 1.2 > >> > >> We're down to 2 unit test failures/errors againt your latest tests. > >> > >> A number of people including myself are interested, enthousiastic and > willing to help bring WebClient to Pharo (1.1 and 1.2), and by using it, > help it improve its core functionality. However, the current process, > whereby you mostly ignore Pharo related fixes, makes that very difficult (we > basically almost have to start over again with each commit you do, comparing > changes becomes harder and harder). You can check the Pharo mailing lists. > >> > >> As I said before, it is your code and your decision what your standpoint > is regarding portability (to Squeak derivatives and even other Smalltalks). > I can understand it if you find it too much work. But I do think you should > make it clear what your standpoint is. > >> > >> Regards, > >> > >> Sven > >> > >> On 29 Aug 2010, at 04:30, Andreas Raab wrote: > >> > >>> You're probably busy, so just a little "ping" :-) > >>> > >>> Cheers, > >>> - Andreas > >>> > >>> -------- Original Message -------- > >>> Subject: Re: WebClient-Core port to Pharo 1.1 final > >>> Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 22:40:07 -0700 > >>> From: Andreas Raab<andreas.r...@gmx.de> > >>> To: Sven Van Caekenberghe<s...@beta9.be> > >>> > >>> Hi Sven, > >>> > >>> Sorry for the belated reply I think something is wrong with Thunderbird > >>> 3's spam filter; it appears that messages with attachments get > routinely > >>> marked as spam or something. In any case a message on Squeak-dev just > >>> got me to look for lost email and yours was among them :-) > >>> > >>> Do you know if these changes are still applicable? There have been > >>> numerous changes in the meantime in WebClient and haven't been paying > >>> much attention. > >>> > >>> Oh, and one more thing. When I went to the project page at > >>> http://www.squeaksource.com/ADayAtTheBeach.html it claims that "Code > >>> commited to this repository will be automatically under LGPLv2 > license." > >>> > >>> Obviously, this is not true for WebClient; could I ask you to change > the > >>> declaration on your repository or move your versions to some other > >>> repository? The way it is right now people might rightfully assume that > >>> the WebClient versions in your repository are under LGPLv2 which is > >>> simply incorrect. > >>> > >>> Thanks, > >>> - Andreas > >>> > >>> On 8/12/2010 1:59 AM, Sven Van Caekenberghe wrote: > >>>> Hi Andreas, > >>>> > >>>> I made some changes to the latest WebClient-Core in order to run it on > Pharo 1.1: > >>>> > >>>> Sven Van Caekenberghe uploaded a new version of WebClient-Core to > project A Day At The Beach: > >>>> > http://www.squeaksource.com/ADayAtTheBeach/WebClient-Core-SvenVanCaekenberghe.63.mcz > >>>> > >>>> ==================== Summary ==================== > >>>> > >>>> Name: WebClient-Core-SvenVanCaekenberghe.63 > >>>> Author: SvenVanCaekenberghe > >>>> Time: 12 August 2010, 10:46:11 am > >>>> UUID: 149d44b2-138b-4d63-a158-f587b2bd391d > >>>> Ancestors: WebClient-Core-ar.62 > >>>> > >>>> added some more #asString's where needed to deal with the different > semantics of #, in Squeak vs Pharo; removed usage of #and:and:and:and: with > a composition of #and: in WebClient>>connect > >>>> > >>>> ================================================ > >>>> > >>>> I still have some tests that fail, but I can't find the problem: > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> 39 run, 34 passes, 0 expected failures, 0 failures, 5 errors, 0 > unexpected passes > >>>> Failures: > >>>> > >>>> Errors: > >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testMultipartFiles > >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testMultipartFiles2 > >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testServerError > >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testWebSockets > >>>> WebClientServerTest>>#testWebSocketsFraming > >>>> > >>>> The #testServerError bothers me most. > >>>> > >>>> I am posting this to a Pharo list as well so that maybe others can > help. > >>>> Maybe I'll find the problems myself later on. > >>>> > >>>> Sven > >>>> > >>>> > >>>> > >> > >> > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Pharo-project mailing list > > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project > > > _______________________________________________ > Pharo-project mailing list > Pharo-project@lists.gforge.inria.fr > http://lists.gforge.inria.fr/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/pharo-project >
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