Yes, you should program in Python! (or a similar agile language) :-)
My main points: - Python is excellent for refactoring (beats C++ and, yes, Java too) - Don't move an inch with unit and system tests - These tests are much easier to write in Python - Compiler-checked interfaces aren't that important - After a few serious successes, Python is a very serious contender in my company. Now to our application's story: We ported a large application core to Python (original was in C++ - we wrote it too). Our motivation was maintainability - we were sure we could reduce that hulking core to a smaller and simpler creature. This really did happen, to the point that the project never went into maintenance mode - it suddenly became useful for things we didn't predict :) We got performance benefits as well (yes, we were surprised). The reasons were straightforward - we had many more options when refactoring the code, and separated a lot of logic neatly (for example extracted DB caching to a decorator - "AOP" in a language that needs a new term :-) The gains we ended up getting could have been achieved in C++, obviously, but they only became apparent after refactoring with Python. We also wrote a quick sample client/server application with Twisted, which was later modified in 2 weeks by someone different and transformed into an excellent production application, that's still working flawlessly after 6 months with no maintenance. All this with about 300 lines of simple, practically stupid, "I understand this code the first time I see it" code (actually, this is probably the reason for the quality). Now, every time someone says "client/server" people think about Python and Twisted, and even a large legacy network client is being replaced with a small Twisted client soon. How come Python is so amazing for refactoring? First, you need really good tests. I don't miss the compiler when I have really good tests. The good side is that to develop at good quality and speed you need really good tests in any language, so you're not losing anything. These tests are also so much easier to write in Python - we get more and better tests, and spend less time writing them. (Whatever language you use for the system, you should probably test in a language like Python). Once these tests are in place, refactoring in Python with a good text editor and some basic tools is so much smoother than C++ or Java, even with Eclipse's really cool 'Refactor' menu. Those actions that are trivial in Eclipse ( e.g. 'Rename Method') are a little more complicated in Python, but not by much (remember the good tests). On the other hand, anything that isn't in Eclipse's context menu is absolutely horrible to do in Java, to the point that I've met many good Java developers that don't think anything else exists at all :) In Python, I've found it to be a snap. And when you add all the more and less dynamic tools that can be put to good use, I'm one happy refactorer. Decorators, bound methods, generator expressions, and the like give me many ways to make the code simpler that aren't nearly as accessible in Java (or barely possible in C++). Why aren't interfaces that important? The reason I like interfaces is as documentation that the compiler happens to check. It's convenient, but I don't terribly miss it in the presence of (a) good documentation, and (b), you guessed it, good tests :-D I don't have much experience with zope.interface, so I don't know how easy it is to use or how much of the benefit from interfaces you get. I must say about this point that I'm comparing a full static-typing approach (e.g. Java) to a full dynamic-typing approach (e.g. Python) - give me dynamic typing any day. A hybrid statically- and dynamically-typed language like Groovy could work better, I don't have the experience to say. orip. On 4/16/07, Ronnie Maor < [EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
I just joined a new startup and trying to build a case for using python as the main programming language. Performance shouldn't be a problem for this application, and the main considerations are quick development cycle and maintainability. It would really help if I could give examples of companies that use python as a significant part of their main application / business logic. Can anyone give such examples? preferably from your companies, other israeli companies you know, or well known and successful non-israeli companies? Omri Reuter - does python play such a role in egloo or is it a glue for logic in another language? Ori Peleg - IIRC you mentioned rewriting the ORM for your company in python? Another thing: Before I raised the python idea, the leading thoughts were C# (windows dependency isn't a problem). My thoughts were on using IronPython with C# (for extensions, and using .NET libraries), and I think python would be more powerful as the framework language, with C# in specific areas instead of the other way around. One risk is that IronPytnon is relatively new. Anyone have experience with it? know how stable it is? anyone think using IronPython or python in general for such a purpose is a bad idea? your comments much appreciated Ronnie
