AKent Olsson schrieb:
Hej Sebastian!
I will try to be nice. But it's not that easy as you steal me a lot of
time with these repeating messages.
You can if you try. The same for me and the time we have invested so
far, we are trying to consolidate.
First I must say you are correct in some points. We need to invest more
time into project handling for qooxdoo. If you take a look at the
mailing list and the number of messages there, you will discover that
the have increased dramatically over the last month and even weeks. It's
not that easy to meet this requirement. The company I am working for
have published qooxdoo as open-source, as we like to share it with the
community. We use many open-source projects ourself and in this way we
could give the community something (hopefully useful) back. The problem
with this increase of work is that I have also some other projects which
are more internal and only interesting for the company. I already invest
by around 70 percent of my time for qooxdoo. This is very much and much
more than any other developer or contributer spend for "just developing
qooxdoo itself". I have no problem with this. It's quite logical that
the leading developers invest the most of the time.
Sebastian, I do not doubt anything of this. I see the results. It is
wonderful, but even the best can be better and that is what it is all
about. No one is doubting your talent, time, dedication, but being an
enthusiastic developer to manage 50 to 100 people or even more is a
dramatic difference in comparison to managing yourself. Ask your
managers in your firm!
As qooxdoo grows even more, I must find a good balance to get the 30
percent done which are more company internal stuff while keeping the
development on qooxdoo up as much as possible. The previous and the
further development of qooxdoo is controlled, especially regarding my
resources, by the company I am working for. We don't want to sell
qooxdoo sometimes later. The major priority is to develop qooxdoo to
fulfill our internal requirements. We have no ambition to build a
complete toolkit, which we could sell afterwards. This is probably the
reason why there is currently no datapicker, no progressbars, no
horizontal scrolling in listviews and such stuff. We just don't need
these things currently. (This does not mean that they couldn't be
contributed by the community.)
Sebastian, please notify my words! Delegate as much as possible.
Hej Kent!
As there are no developers who want to help us to get the things done,
there is nothing I can delegate. The only thing I try from time to time
is to ask if somebody could help. But in 80 percent of the cases there
is just nobody who answers. I'm not your superior or the other people in
our mailing list. I couldn't delegate, I could just ask for to help.
Just a few examples which were already ask for:
* Combine your progressbar implementations
* Add more documentation, snippets and so on (BTW: Hugh has already
Managing Editor access for about 2 month. This means full access to all
editor relevant stuff. Please inform yourself before posting such
irrelevant stuff regarding giving people more access and trust them.)
* Add a wikipedia entry.
* Answer simple questions of new users in the mailing list. Just take a
look on the last week. Many simple questions. But nearly nobody answers.
For beginners even a simple "this was already posted in the mailing
list" could be helpful.
Also there is a large TODO (which is kept up-to-date) in our repository.
There are many ideas how one could help us. I'm open to accept all
contributions in this area. If I will see that someone is repeatedly
presenting good work and support, I'm the first person who will grant
him/her full access to the areas he/she needs. This was also the case
for Hugh.
Here is
a true question: When a project is let to the community you also accept
to listen to the needs of the community, else it is far easier to keep
the project internally within the company. No buzz!!!
I do not doubt anything of this.
If you do not use
the power of the community, it is useless to be in the community for
other reasons as showing off. Here comes the question concerning
reasons? I hope it is for getting help from the community Qooxdoo is
present there.
Everyone seriously interested to support qooxdoo is invited to help.
I think it's a good idea to have more people which knows the code base
as good as I am and who would help to answer questions of the newbie
users, write documentation or even continue the development of qooxdoo.
The problem with this is that I don't see any person out there who could
fulfill this requirement. I am not able to bake us a new guy. ;)
It is less vulnerable. Find your substitutor already now! You don't see,
try to find!
I don't see currently there is any person in our community who can
fulfill this role. This needs to be a person who is really ambitioned
and have no problem with reading and understanding existing source code.
Also I don't think this is a part-time job. I hope for the future that
there are many people in the community which understands just one part
as perfect as me and Andreas currently.
I don't think this "substitutor" must be one person. It could also be
realized by multiple persons.
Just to give our discussion some more facts. I was just one week ill.
This is not a really long time. But even the simplest questions, already
answered before by me or others, are not answered by anyone else in the
community. Yes, I think this is quite normal for OSS products as no one
feels responsible. But real contributors to qooxdoo also like to help
out here. It would be really appreciated to see more user support here.
Not at all. We all missed you and at least I hoped everything was ok
with you.
Thank you for your nice words.
I don't share your opinion (and yes, again it's just your opinion) that
you couldn't use qooxdoo in professional projects. You present this
messages without any facts. We don't develop qooxdoo just for fun (I
think I have repeated this enough times, but you don't theme to realize
this fact). We use it for some professional products already. Why do you
present such testimonies for even new qooxdoo users. This is really
contra productive. We want more users and developers not less. It would
be really nice you could present your reports in a more positive way.
No these are facts. We are a team of 5 very advanced developers with
many different backgrounds, but we have still not managed to get the
first commercial application with Qooxdoo as the GUI client working in a
stabile way because of many reasons. We do not know better!
Interesting. We have developers here, which get this job done without
repeating questions to layout stuff for example which was already
answered weeks ago in the mailing list.
If you know better, please show me ONE commercial application of
Qooxdoo. I would love to learn more. If it is not there I understand,
but do not change reality. Keep it simple! I know it will come, but I am
not convinced we are there yet.
I don't know why you couldn't just believe our testimonies that there
are already some commercial applications running. What about your
company and the five developers you mentioned?
It is positive and balanced. At least that is the purpose!
I'm not sure if all the people on the list would estimate it in the same
way.
Delegation, by the way, could only work for users which really want to
invest many hours. Are you such a user? Why do you don't help with the
already existing requirements? What should I delegate in your opinion if
there is no body how can handle this. Andreas and I have repeatly asked
for people who:
Trust people you have been working with for a while. I can put three
more people 40-60% of their time paid by the company I manage, BECAUSE
QOOXDOO IS A FANTASTIC APPROACH, but not more right now!!!!....and I
think we will be able to use it soon. Now you have heard it again! It is
your decision.
Thank you for the kind words. I'm really interested in more part-time
core developers. You repeat this for months now, if I remember
correctly. I'm not sure if you ever will fulfill your announcements. ;)
I am trying to help you. I have made some suggestions.
Give more people access, 3-4 super users.
I don't know who needs more access:
* write documentation (especially first-step level guides)
* make screenshots more documentation (such the new subversion stuff)
* add snippets and other userful stuff to our homepage
Give Hugh free hands. He has done a wonderful job so far. Trust him!
He has already full access. Please ask first, before telling us these
wrong facts.
* reading code and try to understand it yourself and try to help us with
things like the new transport layer
One of the users who tried to do it was totally demolished. I think it
was very aggressive to turn him down like that, instead of involving him
and not invent the wheel twice.
I don't think he was "totally demolished". He, you mean Chris Ricks, I
think, has repeatedly written that he enjoys that we use some parts of
his code. He has even written that he is interesting in contributing to
our new implementation. Unfortunately, haven't heart of any progress.
* fix contributions (by the way, many of the contributed stuff doesn't
seem to be perfect right now. Can you tell me why I should even consider
to bring such contributions to our stable tree? I think they are really
good placed in our contributed folder)
Do you know why? Because my interest to put all updates in the list has
decreased, so they are not up-to-date. It clots the list,
It clots the list? You don't really think so? For about 5 patch-mails a
month. That's in my opinion just a bad argument, which should hide the
fact, that you are not really interested in perfecting your
contributions. I remember that I've rewritten and refactored our layout
API multiple dozens times. I miss this for your widgets and
contributions. Where is the repeatedly written strong commitment?
you wants to
look at it, but you do not have time etc etc I am not arguing with you.
I am telling you what the reasons are. But I will be putting it
up-to-date.
Tell me one example, excluding the locales (which you sent Sunday and
I've just committed to SVN), where you think there is a timeout which
stops you in contributing more stuff.
* write new widget like a data picker, a slider or other widgets which
can be found in our TODO.
I have a slider working in my computer, but I have not uploaded it so
far. The start of the date picker is also in place, but because the
localisation etc has not been decided yet, I stalled that until I came
through with the QxLocale, QxLocaleManager and QxResource classes. They
are there now....first shot released yesterday.
I think, regarding this small list, there is already enough one can
contribute. I think we need more delegation if there would be more
people who asks what they could do to help the project. But currently?
What should I do in your opinion than present a list of things we would
like to do in the next several months?
I think you should have an extremely clear list of things you want to be
done and invite new developers to start. Not only one line. A little
more explanation about your ideas might help them to estimate the
effort. Then take a chance to ask everyone to contribute whenever it
gives. Make it divergent!
There is a TODO file. I could repeat this again and again.
Where are all these "worried users", Kent? Can you please present some
more facts? Could you tell what they things went wrong and who they are?
Of course, I do not give any names if they don't want to publish. I have
asked them to publish, but they think the debate climate is a little bit
too tough. You have had arguing with people during the last months. I
think they really wanted to contribute, but did they feel welcomed?
My experience was the following: I was astonished over the willingness
of you to answer questions. I was disappointed with you when it came to
stimulating me to contribute. But the library has all the time kept me
here, and that is the result of your and others work.
Why do you need me to stimulate you. Where is you own ambition?
I'm really interested if anybody else than just repeatedly you, Kent,
thinks that I prevent other users from contributing. I could be blind,
but I don't think it's a problem of my project handling that there are
not more visible and engaged persons.
So, what is then the reason, Sebastian? Why aren't more people involved?
Can you share your analysis?
My analysis is just that the project growth organically. There are
currently not just enough developers who have that much time to invest
that much time needed to be really useful to bringing the core stuff of
qooxdoo to a new level.
Sebastian
Kent
Regards,
Sebastian
Kent Olsson schrieb:
Sebastian is a very driven person and in one sense too much drive for
this project. It means that things stop and nothing or very little
happens when he does not have time to spend for Qooxdoo for any reason.
It is detrimental for the project, because a lot of people spend a lot
of time to get things working with Qooxdoo. Indirectly it is a big
responsibility and a heavy role Sebastian carries on his shoulders. Of
course it is an open source project, but still, if we want Qooxdoo to be
useful in professional projects, it is necessary to find at least one
more person to share this role with Sebastian. I am not sure how aware
Sebastian is about this, because not much has happened by itself in this
area, but the more users approaching Qooxdoo, the more problems the
project will have. It already has had those symptoms the last 2-3
months. This is not a commercial project therefore it is extremely
important to share the burden of Sebastian's on at least one more
person. Why is this important? Is it only for the sake of Sebastian or
the project itself? I can see that there is so much more to develop
before Qooxdoo can be used in a professional project to an extent close
to 100% and I doubt that this can be done only by one or two persons
within reasonable time without 100% dedication/time. I try to be frank
in this, but delegation is now the only way to succeed and the future
solution, else there will be a high risk of people choosing other ways.
I have already received some communication from worried users indirectly
from this list. I do share their worries!
Sebastian, release some of the control but keep the quality control and
coordination!
Kent
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