On Tue, 2006-03-28 at 12:46 +0000, BJörn Lindqvist wrote:
> > > We did a comparison internally, but no one was better than Qooxdoo for
> > > the purpose of real web application development (RIA). It has a better
> > > design and is faster than most of them. Most of the ideas are close to
> > > how Java has been designed. In some cases it is better designed. One
> > > negative thing is that Sebastian has opened up the software, but not as
> > > much as it deserves. It slows development too much. It must be changed
> > > in some or the other way, else dedicated and brave developers will
> > > choose other libraries to support and contribute.
> >
> > IMHO qooxdoo problem is not political if we should really have one.
> > Please tell me what exactly you mean with "has opened, [...] but not as
> > much as it deserves." What are your ideas, Kent? Give this discussion
> > some real facts - not just try to put some public sentiment.
>
> I have only been using qooxdoo for about a month, so take what I'm
> going to say with a grain of salt.
I try to.
> Kent is IMHO in a way right.
Actually, IMNSHO - no, but I think this was expected :-)
> But for that to happen some development processes need to change. They
> need to be in harmony with how the community works. Otherwise everyone
> will just be frustrated. Contributors because their patches aren't
> committed and you and your team because the mailing list fills up with
> ungrateful and unhappy users. Sure, it is possible to continue that
> way with an in house development process, but I bet correctly
> channeling potential contributors skill into qooxdoo can be much more
> efficient.
We are open to this and we were always open to this, and yes, there are
contributors who work with us and whom we trust, it's just that they are
not that vocal about it.
I am afraid that the image of this project for the outstanding lurker is
currently mainly dominated by the childish and ignorant behavior of a
very small minority and not by the fact that there ARE people outside of
our firm that work constantly and productively with us to enhance the
project without accusing Sebastian or any of us that we don't let them
do their work.
> For example, a BUG TRACKER!!!! It is a vital tool to enable the
> community to help you. I have reported issues on this mailing list
> with qooxdoo that was already known about. If there was a bug tracker
> I could have checked myself if the issue was reported and would have
> avoided wasting my time.
Yes, you are right here. We will "Real Soon Now" have a bugtracker. It's
just that we didn't come around to do this yet. This is unfortunate, but
just the way it is.
> Qooxdoo is severely under documented, it doesn't take a core developer
> to write API documentation. Anyone with a little training and some
> urge could do that.
There are people who wanted to write docs and who have access to the
website and the documentation stuff. Is there still anybody who want's
to write docs and can't because we don't let him? Please remember: It's
not only the loudly expressed wish to "get access" (to whatever), but
also what is really delivered that counts...
> The same thing with the examples in the demo directory. Appoint someone
> to help you write new demos and stuff.
Appoint? Sorry, appointing in a FOSS project simply doesn't work. If
there is anybody who writes a new demo IT IS MORE THAN WELCOMED. But
where are those legions of coders?
> someone that you trust can comment on code that people submit for
> inclusion. Everyone knows how boring that is, so it's perfect for an
> aspiring developer. Everyone starts from the bottom and work their way up. :)
Yes, but where is this person? Sorry, we don't trust Kent Olson. Nothing
in his behavior makes me believe that he can be a trustworthy
contributor.
But actually your premise is false. We have no problems with checking
patches. But the rate of Real Code vs. Whining Emails by some minor
amount of people is unfortunately quite small.
> Let me also state that I don't think there is anything wrong with how
> Sebastian is running the project now. BUT it is possible for him to
> run it more efficiently. And also, it is obvious that many of us
> discussing here do not have English as their native language. We
> shouldn't let minor communication problems ruining the collegial
> atmosphere. We ALL think Qooxdoo rock. :)
Let me state again: Everybody with only the minimum amount of politeness
and cooperation is MORE THAN WELCOMED here - be it patches, answering
questions, writing docs or demos - you name it.
But we will always step into deep technical discussions about code -
that's just the way it has to be. We will not accept inferior (or
better: in our opinion inferior) code only for someone to feel good. If
you have a good solution that's not obvious to Andreas or Sebastian -
you have to discuss it, and this discussion may be longer than you wish,
but after all we hope we can reach a consensus that helps everybody.
Regards,
jtl
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