Well, all I saw was what the post said. The post listed bad
things that Christianity is responsible for; it seemed pretty clearly
like a slam at Christianity. It strikes me as very likely that many
people would have interpreted it this way. I would have thought that
the author would have understood that it would be interpreted this way.
I don't see the upside to turning this list into a forum for "here's
what's wrong with your religion -- no, here's what's wrong with your
religion," and I see lots of downside.
Eugene
> -----Original Message-----
> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Paul
> Finkelman
> Sent: Tuesday, September 06, 2005 12:44 PM
> To: Law & Religion issues for Law Academics
> Subject: Re: From the list custodian
>
>
> Eugene:
>
> My point was a serious one about how one organizes a course, and
> reminder that when people teach a course to argue for a
> viewpoint and to
> ignore other information it undermines academic integrity.
> The fact is
> this: a "History of the Influence of Christianity in
> American history"
> taught in a fundamentalist Christian school would not likely
> teach many
> of the topics I suggested; most American history coursres
> would teach a
> number of them, as well as teach about Puritans, the two great
> awakenings, the role of religious people in the antislavery
> movement and
> the civil rights movement.
>
> If Rick wants to play the list game, I think it only fair to
> explore the
> issue.
>
> Paul Finkelman
>
> Volokh, Eugene wrote:
> > Folks: I'm sure that people on this list would be able
> to compile
> > lists of the great sins of atheists and atheistic regimes;
> of Muslims;
> > of Jews; of Catholics; of Protestants; and more. They
> would also be
> > able to compile lists of the good things that each of those
> groups have
> > done. Whether religion (or irreligion) generally, or certain
> > denominations in particular, are on balance malign or
> benign influences
> > on the nation is a topic that has been debated for
> centuries, and has
> > filled volumes. It can easily fill days and days of list
> discussion,
> > too, should people choose to embark on it.
> >
> > But do we really think that posting such lists -- no matter how
> > much
> > the post may entertain the author -- will be helpful to thoughtful,
> > reasoned list discussion of the law of government and religion?
> >
> > The list custodian
> >
> >
> >
> > Paul Finkelman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> >
> > Dear Rick:
> >
> > I would assume that UC has equivalent courses such
> as "History of
> > Christianity"; "Renaissance/Reformation" and a
> number of early
> > modern
> > European courses and late antiquity courses that deal almost
> > entirely
> > with the Church and Church history. There are
> probably courses
> > on the
> > Bible taught in various departments at UC as they
> are in most
> > universities. Moreover, the history of religion
> pops up all over
> > the
> > place. When I used to teach US Survery in a history
> department I
> > always
> > spent at least a week on the Puritans and assigned
> a book about
> > them.
> > My discussion of 19th century reform movements
> included a good
> > deal on
> > the 2nd great awakening; I always had a lecture on
> the 1st great
> > awkening in a survey course. Every colonial history course I
> > ever took
> > (or knew of) had a huge section on religion. In anything,
> > colonialists
> > probably spend too much time on the Puritans.
> >
> > Furthermore, I would imagine that a great number of
> the courses
> > below
> > would have content about Christians and
> Christianity, including
> > "Storytelling," "Gender, Sexuality, and Identity in
> Literature,"
> > (lots
> > of interesting religious issues there, from the
> problem of guilt to
> > fundamentalist hombophobia) "Jewish History," (had
> to teach it
> > without
> > discussing Christianity); Turning Points in Jewish
> History (same
> > comment); Issues in African History (from
> Missionaries to Bishop
> > Tutu it
> > will show up); Holocaust Literature, Islam, etc.
> will all have to
> > discuss Christianity and its relationship to other
> faiths and
> > events.
> >
> > I think a course on the "Influence of Christianity
> in the US"
> > would be
> > interesting and certainly valid. Such a course
> would lectures and
> > readings on the following (in no particular order):
> >
> > The KKK (and the use of the Cross as a symbol of
> terrorism and
> > hatred;
> > Christian "identity" movements in the last 25 years
> > Father Coughlin's antisemitism
> > The hanging of witches in Salem and Quakers in Boston
> > The use of Christian theology to defend (as well as
> attack) slavery
> > The use of conversion of slaves to help prevent
> resistance to
> > slavery
> > Ownership of slaves by churches
> > The utter failure of the Protestant Churches in the
> South to the
> > take a
> > strong stand in favor of legalizing slave marriages
> > The persecution of Mormons and the murder of Joseph Smith
> > The death penalty (fortunately reduced to exile)
> for a Jew in
> > colonial
> > Maryland because he denied the divinity of Christ
> > The whipping and jailing of Baptist ministers in
> Virginia in the
> > Revolutionary period.
> > The intellectual intolerance of the 1920s (and more recent
> > periods) by
> > prohibiting the teaching of evolution in the public schools
> > The forced reading of Protestant version of the
> Bible imposed on
> > Catholics in the 19th century
> > The a! ttacks on Al Smith's presidential campaign (and also
> > attack on John
> > F. Kennedy) because they were Catholic.
> > The strong stand against integration taken by virtually ever
> > southern
> > Christian minister in the 1950s and early 1960s.
> > The influence of religious groups in undermining
> Indian culture and
> > religion and forcing Indian children not to learn their own
> > language.
> > The use of Protestant theology (and the influence
> of Christian
> > leaders)
> > to justify wars against Indians, particularly in
> the colonial
> > period.
> >
> > Yes, it would be a great course; I would love to teach it.
> >
> > Paul Finkelman
> > --
> > Paul Finkelman
> > Chapman Distinguished Professor
> > University of Tulsa College of Law
> > 3120 East 4th Place
> > Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499
> >
> > 918-631-3706 (office)
> > 918-631-2194 (fax)
> >
> > [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >
> >
> > Rick Duncan wrote:
> > > If you haven't read the complaint
> > >
> > > in the Association of Christian Schools v. UC case, I
> > encourage you to
> > > do so. Although UC denied approval to courses concerning
> > > "Christianity's Influence on American History" and
> > "Christianity and
> > > Morality in American Literature" as being too
> narrow and not
> > consistent
> > > "with knowledge generally accepted in the collegiate
> > community," at the
> > > same time it approved courses such as these:
> > >
> > > Social Commentary in Popular Music
> > > Baseball, Literature and Culture
> > > Sports Fiction/Non Fiction
> > > Storytelling
> > > The Roots of Rock Music ("yeah, yeah, yeah")
> > > Gender Roles in Literature
> > > Ethnic Experience in Literature
> > > Gender, Sexuality, and Identity in Literature
> > > Literature of the Counterculture
> > > Literature from the 60's Movement
> > > Filipino Heritage Studies
> > > Intro to Rabbinic Literature
> > > Jewish History
> > > Turning Poi! nts in Jewish History
> > > Issues in African History
> > > Raza Studies
> > > History of India
> > > Mexican History
> > > Modern Irish History
> > > Asian Literature
> > > Holocaust Literature
> > > Chicano Literature
> > > Beat Literature (like, cool, man!)
> > > Women's Literature
> > > Intro to Buddhism
> > > Islam
> > >
> > > And the beat goes on. There were many similar
> courses that were
> > > also approved.
> > >
> > > Now these facts are from the complaint. UC may
> reply that it
> > has not
> > > approved Beat Literature or Baseball Literature
> or the other
> > > narrow courses from specialized points of view.
> But if these
> > are the
> > > facts. this case looks very much like the kind
> of religious
> > gerrymander
> > > we saw in Lukumi where a person could kill an animal for
> > almost any
> > > reason except religious ritual. And it also
> looks like the
> > kind of
> > > subjective, individualized, discretionary procedures that
> > trigger ! strict
> > > scrutiny under Sherbert and the individualized
> process rule.
> > >
> > > I have only glanced at the 108-page complaint,
> but it sure
> > looks to me
> > > like the Pls have a strong claim of viewpoint
> and religious
> > > discrimination. Indeed, there seems to be at least a
> > possibility of
> > > denominational discrimination in the approval process. It
> > would not
> > > surprise me at all if UC settles this one as quickly and
> > quietly as
> > > possible.
> > >
> > > Rick Duncan
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Rick Duncan
> > > Welpton Professor of Law
> > > University of Nebraska College of Law
> > > Lincoln, NE 68583-0902
> > >
> > > "When the Round Table is broken every man must
> follow either
> > Galahad or
> > > Mordred: middle things are gone." C.S.Lewis,
> Grand Miracle
> > >
> > > "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed, briefed,
> > debriefed, or
> > > numbered." --The Prisoner
> > >
> > > __________________________________________________
> > > Do You Yahoo!?
> > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
> protection around
> > > http://mail.yahoo.com
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> > >
> > > _______________________________________________
> > > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
> > > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or
> get password,
> > see
> http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
> > >
> > > Please note that messages sent to this large
> list cannot be
> > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read
> > messages that are posted; people can read the Web
> archives; and
> > list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the
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> > others.
> >
> >
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get
> password, see
> > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
> >
> > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be
> > viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read
> > messages that are posted; people can read the Web
> archives; and
> > list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the
> messages to
> > others.
> >
> >
> >
> > Rick Duncan
> > Welpton Professor of Law
> > University of Nebraska College of Law
> > Lincoln, NE 68583-0902
> >
> > "When the Round Table is broken every man must follow
> either Galahad
> > or Mordred: middle things are gone." C.S.Lewis, Grand Miracle
> >
> > "I will not be pushed, filed, stamped, indexed,
> briefed, debriefed,
> > or numbered." --The Prisoner
> >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------------------
> ----------
> > Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
> > <http://store.yahoo.com/redcross-donate3/>
> >
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> > --
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
> > To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see
> > http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
> >
> > Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be
> viewed as
> > private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read
> messages that are
> > posted; people can read the Web archives; and list members can
> > (rightly or wrongly) forward the messages to others.
>
>
> --
> Paul Finkelman
> Chapman Distinguished Professor
> University of Tulsa College of Law
> 3120 East 4th Place
> Tulsa, Oklahoma 74104-2499
>
> 918-631-3706 (office)
> 918-631-2194 (fax)
>
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>
> _______________________________________________
> To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
> To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password,
> see http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
>
> Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be
> viewed as private. Anyone can subscribe to the list and read
> messages that are posted; people can read the Web archives;
> and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the
> messages to others.
>
_______________________________________________
To post, send message to Religionlaw@lists.ucla.edu
To subscribe, unsubscribe, change options, or get password, see
http://lists.ucla.edu/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/religionlaw
Please note that messages sent to this large list cannot be viewed as private.
Anyone can subscribe to the list and read messages that are posted; people can
read the Web archives; and list members can (rightly or wrongly) forward the
messages to others.
