Norm, Thanks for that clarification. Your duplexer is the later model, just like mine. My harness drawing applies only to the later model.
Regarding the jumper length, it is NOT tip-to-tip of the cable; it is the horizontal distance between the centers of each tee, with the jumper cable in place. I suppose that the jumper cable itself might be around 13 inches measured tip-to-tip, since each tee adds about 3/8 to 1/2 inch to the cable length. Note that the end cable sections, which connect to the RX and TX jacks on the repeater, can be whatever length is convenient or necessary for reaching their respective terminals without barrels or adapters. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -----Original Message----- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com [mailto:repeater-buil...@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of NORM KNAPP Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 9:51 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Notch on duplexers... How low should they go??? Ok, It is not the rod lenght sticking up, it is the set screws and adjustment nuts (bolts?) That are different. One side has 2 on each can and the other side has 3 on each can. The RG-142 jumpers are pretty short. I really doubt that they are 12 inches from tip of N male to tip of N male. The T connectors are good quality. Thanks for the drawings. Looks like I am going to be building jumpers. BTW, these have the little screw driver slot caps for notch tuning instead of the plastic rods in the tubes. I have a set of those also for another prodjet. 73 de N5NPO Norm ----- Original Message ----- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> > To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sun Jul 12 11:01:30 2009 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Notch on duplexers... How low should they go??? Norm, The tuning rods on the TX pair of cavities will be at different heights than those on the RX pair, simply because they are tuned to different frequencies. As for the RG-142 jumpers, that's okay because RG-142 is double-shielded. Changing those jumpers to RG-214/U will probably gain you nothing. If those jumpers are the right lengths, I'd leave them alone. A while back, I set up a Q202G duplexer for a local radio club. It was originally tuned to a commercial pair in the 152-157 MHz band, so I asked the club to purchase a low-split harness from Sinclair. When the new harness arrived, I took careful measurements of both the new and the old harness, and the results are on a drawing I posted in the Files section, here: <http://tinyurl.com/l3xquy <http://tinyurl.com/l3xquy> <http://tinyurl.com/l3xquy <http://tinyurl.com/l3xquy> > > If the harness on your duplexer is the high-split version, with about 12 inches between tee centers, you will not be able to achieve optimum tuning. The factory-made harness uses Delta crimped connectors, and costs about $250. If I were to do this again, I would consider fabricating the harness myself, with genuine Delta tees, which can be purchased for a total of around $120. 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -----Original Message----- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of NORM KNAPP Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 8:46 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Notch on duplexers... How low should they go??? Ok Eric, You just brought up something... My cans are SANS cabinet. Two of the cans at least, have serial numbers and model numbers on them. I am seriously now thinking that this is a Frankenstein monster duplexer made from cans from more than 2 set. The tuning rods on the one pair have slightly different adjustment/hold it in place fixtures. Furthermore, the harness is made from RG-142. Very nicely done, but I am thinking non-stock never the less. I have some good RG-9 and some RG-214. Perhaps I should build a new harness. I got -79 on the lo pass (tx) side and about -85 on the hi pass (rx) side as it sits now. Tnx De N5NPO Norm ----- Original Message ----- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> > To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> > Sent: Sun Jul 12 10:19:54 2009 Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Notch on duplexers... How low should they go??? Jeff, I agree completely with your conclusions. When tuned on my vector network analyzer, I have often been able to achieve 90 dB of isolation on both sides of a Sinclair Q202G duplexer at 2m. The key to getting this kind of performance is not just tuning each can individually for optimum return loss, but also ensuring that each pair of cavities is matched to its partner- something that a network analyzer does very well. Of course, this assumes that the low-split harness with 14 inches between the tee connectors, is installed. One of the quirks of the Q202G duplexer is that the stickers (or dots) that Sinclair puts next to each loop plate may not be exact, but only approximate. With a network analyzer, the loops in each cavity can be adjusted so that they are electrically symmetrical. This is a painstaking process, but it results in optimum tuning. The GE isolation curves Jeff mentioned are found in the Service Bulletin section, here: <www.repeater-builder.com/ge/lbi-master-list.html> 73, Eric Lemmon WB6FLY -----Original Message----- From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of Jeff DePolo Sent: Sunday, July 12, 2009 7:51 AM To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> Subject: RE: [Repeater-Builder] Notch on duplexers... How low should they go??? With a preamp, if you're only getting -106 dBm sensitivity, something is wrong. If memory serves, the spec for 12 dB SINAD without the preamp for a highband Mastr II is 0.35 uV (-116 dBm), and with the UHS preamp the sensitivity was 6 dB better (-122 dBm). Looking at the GE isolation curves, for a 100 watt highband transmitter with a phase-modulated exciter you need a minimum of 81 dB of noise supression (Tx cavity notch depth) and 69 dB of carrier supression (Rx cavity notch depth). For the PLL exciter, you only need 59 dB of noise supression. GE's curves are based on the assumption that 1 dB degradation (desense) is acceptable. If you add the UHS preamp, GE recommends adding another 6 dB to both isolation requirements. Personally I think that's cutting it rather close. The preamp has about 10 dB gain, but its noise figure isn't very good, hence the usable improvement in sensitivity is only about 6 dB. But that 10 dB of gain is still there, so you want at least 10 dB more carrier supression to prevent receiver overload (at least that's the way I look at it). On top of the calculated minimums, I always want to see AT LEAST 10 dB more isolation than the minimum required, more if I can get it. So, assuming you're using a regular PM exciter, 100 watt PA, and UHS preamp, if I were building the box I'd be targeting 100+ dB of noise supression and 90 dB of carrier rejection at a minimum. --- Jeff WN3A > -----Original Message----- > From: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> > [mailto:Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> ] On Behalf Of AJ > Sent: Saturday, July 11, 2009 10:00 PM > To: Repeater-Builder@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> <mailto:Repeater-Builder%40yahoogroups.com> > Subject: Re: [Repeater-Builder] Notch on duplexers... How low > should they go??? > > > > In my instance here... > > Factory preamp puts you around -106 dBm sensitivity which at > 44 dBm tx works out to needing about 91 dB of isolation at my > 600 KHz split... You, however, have 50 dBm so you're looking > at closer to 96 dB of isolation to sit at theorhetical zero > desense. I'm sure someone on here can run the numbers through > Commshop - stock VHF RX with 10 dB preamp is around .18 uV > sensitivity. > > I'm just coming off a 13 hour shift so my math may be (way) off lol :) > > -AJ, K6LOR > > On Sat, Jul 11, 2009 at 7:46 PM, NORM KNAPP > <nkn...@twowayradio.net <mailto:nknapp%40twowayradio.net> <mailto:nknapp%40twowayradio.net> <mailto:nknapp%40twowayradio.net> <mailto:nknapp%40twowayradio.net> <mailto:nknapp%40twowayradio.net> <mailto:nkn...@twowayradio.net <mailto:nknapp%40twowayradio.net> <mailto:nknapp%40twowayradio.net> <mailto:nknapp%40twowayradio.net> <mailto:nknapp%40twowayradio.net> <mailto:nknapp%40twowayradio.net> > > wrote: > > > > > I was checking the tuning on my duplexers for the > 147.225 repeater after noticing some desense on with the > service monitor. I had something like 99 watts going into the > duplexers (sinclair Q-202g) and about 85 coming out. I > thought, WOW! This cannot be right. Sure enough they were > aparently mis-tuned. I switched the service monitor into the > tracking gen mode and began. The rx side was pretty close and > when I got done I had a -85db or so notch at 147.225mhz. All > I had to do was move the ol' notches with the little caps > next to the connector. The pass at 147.825 looked good, about > -1.5db or so. Moved over to the TX side (low pass) and the > notches were off. A good bit off in fact. So I startes tuning > them to where they needed to be and all I could get was about > -65db or so. What gives?!? Oh no, I thought. I am gonna have > to spin the loops! EGAD!!! I hate doing that. Oh well, here > goes nothing. I isolated the first jug and began spinning. I > ended up getting it (one jug) down to about -31db. The other > side were in the -35db or more area. Try as I may the -31db > per can was about as good as I could get. Whith both cans > together I get a -79db notch on the 147.825 rx frequency with > about -1.4 db on the pass. Is this adequate for a MASTR II > with the factory preamp? The desense is pretty much gone now. > I think if I spent a little more time I could probably get > the notch a little closer to the -85db that I got on the > other pair on the high pass rx side, but I am not sure it is > worth the effort. > What do you thing guys??? > > 73 de N5NPO > > > > > > Checked by AVG - www.avg.com > Version: 8.5.375 / Virus Database: 270.13.12/2233 - Release > Date: 07/12/09 08:20:00 > > >
