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Today's Topics:
1. long vowels (Desiraju Hanumanta Rao)
2. Re: long vowels (peekayar)
3. Re: saradabhujangam translation shloka 1 revised
(Aarathi Sankaran)
4. short e and o : do not exist in sa.mskR^ita : do in other
languages (Jay Vaidya)
5. karmaNi of 4th conjugation verbs (Jay Vaidya)
6. Re: saradabhujangam translation shloka 1 revised (peekayar)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 02:24:32 -0700 (PDT)
From: Desiraju Hanumanta Rao <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] long vowels
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Reg. elongated E or O - you check up the Itranslator's keyboard mapping or ITRANS,
ITRANS 5.1 Encoding Scheme for Devanagari in there itself, and come to know that there
are only short - e, ai, o - in Sanskrit. No longs.
RK says >> the o in prabho is elongated and not short. There is no word in Sanskrit
which requires a short e -or o, << No to both observations pl. The reverse is correct.
The first sylable in 'belUn' is short only. Reg. 'govinda' etc, what we pronounce is
by force of habit and there is no elongation either for 'o' or for 'e' in Sanskrit. It
is maheshvara, not mahEshvara, mahendra, not mahEndra etc.
dhrao
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Message: 2
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 05:25:04 -0700 (PDT)
From: peekayar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] long vowels
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], sanskrit digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
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In connwection with Sri DHRao’s arguments
I would like to sate the following.
Shloka-lakSnaM
pa~nchamam laghu sarvatra
saptamaM dvichaturthayoH
SaSThaM guru vijAnIyAt
etat shlokasya lakSaNam.
The 5th syllable always is laghu (in all lines)
The 7th in the second and fourth lines is a laghu.
The 6th is guru (in all lines)
This is the rule for a shloka.
On the basis of the above,
let us an analyse the following
Shlokas –
Kva sUryaprbhavo vamshaH (1st line R.1 -2)
Let L be laghu and g be guru,
Line No.1 - L g g L L g g g
Here vo (6th letter) is guru.
kAmaM chakrasya tena me (2nd line R. 10-41)
Line No.2 – g g g g L g L g
Here te (the 6th letter) is guru.
I would like to get examples.
P.K.Ramakrishnan
Desiraju Hanumanta Rao <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:Reg. elongated E or O - you check up
the Itranslator's keyboard mapping or ITRANS, ITRANS 5.1 Encoding Scheme for
Devanagari in there itself, and come to know that there are only short - e, ai, o - in
Sanskrit. No longs.
RK says >> the o in prabho is elongated and not short. There is no word in Sanskrit
which requires a short e -or o, << No to both observations pl. The reverse is correct.
The first sylable in 'belUn' is short only. Reg. 'govinda' etc, what we pronounce is
by force of habit and there is no elongation either for 'o' or for 'e' in Sanskrit. It
is maheshvara, not mahEshvara, mahendra, not mahEndra etc.
dhrao
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Message: 3
Date: Tue, 05 Oct 2004 09:13:29 -0500
From: Aarathi Sankaran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] saradabhujangam translation shloka 1 revised
To: peekayar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Cc: sanskrit digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
I will try to go further into the meaning of some of the adjectives.
Please let me know if I am totally off-beat in my interpretation.
prapuNyAvalaMbAM
prakR^iShTaH puNyaH = prapuNyaH (great merit as in puNya and not pApa)
(janAH) prapuNyena avalaMbate yAm tAm = prapuNyAvalaMbAM
She who is attained (or literally caught hold of) only by those who have
done good deeds and thereby have great puNya.
AsyendubiMbAM sadAnoSThabiMbAM
Ambaa's face is almost always compared to the moon. Further in
Saundaryalahiri her face is likened to the sharatkAla chandra (verse 15
sharajjyotsnAshuddhAm). The idea here is that autumn comes after
varShAkAla and hence there are no clouds. There would be no hindrances
and the light would be perceived very clearly. Similarly the devi's face
is also like a sharatkAla moon enabling us to receive the gift of
knowledge from her lips.
Suggestions welcome.
Aarathi.
peekayar wrote:
> 1
>
> suvakSojakuMbhAM sudhApUrNakuMbhAM
> prasAdAvalaMbAM prapuNyAvalaMbAM
> sadAsyendubiMbAM sadAnoSThabiMbAM
> bhaje shAradAMbAM ajasraM madambAm
>
> With pot-like breasts and a pot full of nectar,
> Full of kindness and extreme holiness,
> With a moon-disc face and gift giving cherry-fruit lips,
> I worship shaaradaambaa, ever my ambaa.
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 07:37:35 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] short e and o : do not exist in sa.mskR^ita : do
in other languages
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
The short e and o sounds are not used in classical
(non-vedic) sa.nskR^ita. Sutra and jargon quotations
are not embedded, but I will supply them if asked.
A relevant quotation from the kAshikA is here, though:
(my translation)
START QUOTE:
'a', 'a', 'a'; of these three upper (udAtta), lower
(anudAtta), intermediate (svarita) accented varieties
of 'a', each has a nasal and non-nasal type, and each
of those has the short (hrasva), long (dIrgha) and
very long (pluta) types, thus making a total of 18
types.
Similarly for 'i', 'u' and 'R^i'.
''L^i has no long (dIrgha) version'', so for it 12
forms are described.
The diphthongs (e, o, ai, au) have no short version,
so for them as well, 12 forms each are described.
: END QUOTE
Please note the last sentence. This discussion appears
in the discussion on 1.1.9 of pANini
What happens when sa.nskR^ita speakers want, for
grammatical reasons, to shorten the sounds e, o, ai
and au?
'e' and 'ai' are shortened to 'i'
'o' and 'au' are shortened to 'u'
Here is an example.
We want to say "a pair of cows, taken as a group".
i.e., dve gAvau, (samAhAre) [OR dvau gAvau: two bulls]
forming a samAsa compound
dvi + go = dvigo
By rules, this number-first compound is neuter and
singular.
Neuter words (if vowel-ending) are necessarily hrasva
ending in sanskR^ita. So we need to shorten the final
'o'.
But how can you shorten the end of 'dvigo' if no short
'o' exists? Simple: make it 'u'
dvigo -> shortened -> dvigu
The prathamA ekavachanam of 'dvigu' is 'dvigu'.
Tangentially, you may remember that 'dvigu', as a
classic example, has been taken to be the name
denoting all number-first compounds.
This peculiarity of classical sa.nskR^ita is not due
to phonetic inevitability. In fact, I have read that
certain upanishhad verses do have hrasva 'e' and 'o'
(I do not remember the reference). But then the
upanishhad texts are considered pre-classical,
quasi-vedic literature.
A brief examination of the shape of the mouth and the
throat reveal that 'e' and 'o' are not diphthongs
(two-component-vowels) at all, but monophthongs. 'ai'
and 'au', though, are true diphthongs as pronounced by
modern Indians. So the southern languages that need
definition of short and long 'e' and 'o' have
formalized these forms.
marAThI has not formalized, but in practice uses the
short and long versions of 'ai' - a true diphthong!
e.g.,
aika (long 'ai', super-short final 'a') meaning
"listen!" said to singular listener.
aikA (short 'ai', long final 'A') meaning "listen!"
said to plural listeners.
Formalization of the long-short difference is not
needed in marAThI, because mispronunciation makes no
difference to meanings, and mispronunciation by
natives is impossible due to automatic
marAThI-specific sandhi rules.
The example of fArsI - a language closely related to
sa.nskR^ita - shows an amusing role reversal of the
pairs e<->i, and o<->u
In fArsI, 'e' and 'o' are necessarily short and 'I'
and 'U' are necessarily long.
Languages arrange their phonetics to minimally include
and formalize sounds that differentiate the words in
their lexicon. The short versions of 'e' and 'o' are
non-essential for discrimination of sa.nskR^ita words,
and hence are not formalized. As far as we can tell,
neither were these short sounds used after
upanishhadic times.
dhana.njayaH
alikhat hanumanta-rAva-mahodayaH:
>The short 'o' is there in Sanskrit as in -
> hè prabho etc. Sanskrit has no elongated 'O'
> as in pancha draviDa languages. The sound 'eh'
> - in which context you mean.
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Message: 5
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:31:39 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jay Vaidya <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: [Sanskrit] karmaNi of 4th conjugation verbs
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
rAmeNa "preshhyatu"-"preshhyatAm" iti etayoH
"kartari"-"karmaNi" iti sAdhu vivaraNam preshhitaM
manye | tathaiva pIyakareNa |
I believe Ramagazh has sent the correct explanation of
"preshhyatu"-"preshhyatAm" as "active"-"passive". So
also PKR-gAru.
An interesting aside regarding 4th conjugation
(div-Adi list) verbs that are AtmanepadI -- often the
"kartari" and "karmaNi" ("active" and "passive") forms
come out looking the same.
e.g., "sA vidyate" and "tayA vidyate", have
approximately the same meaning. = "She is." But they
have slightly different emphasis, first on "she",
second on the fact of "being".
Also, in these self referential sentences:
atra karmaNi-prayogam ishhTataram manyate saH |
meaning:
He believes that the passive-voice is more suitable
here. (Sentence is actually in "active" voice.)
atra kartari-prayogaH ishhTaraH manyate tena |
meaning:
It is believed by him that the active-voice is more
suitable here. (Sentence is actually in "passive"
voice.)
Note that "manyate" has the identical word-shape.
But there is no confusion. The presence of 'saH'
(prathamA) and 'prayogam' (dvitIyA) clues us that the
first sentence is in kartari-prayoga.
The presence of 'prayogaH' (prathamA) and 'tena'
(tR^itIyA) tells us that the second is in
karmaNi-prayoga.
dhana.njayaH
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Message: 6
Date: Tue, 5 Oct 2004 08:53:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: peekayar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Subject: Re: [Sanskrit] saradabhujangam translation shloka 1 revised
To: Aarathi Sankaran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, sanskrit digest
<[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Message-ID: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
I shall slightly modify the translation as-
With pot-like breasts and a pot full of nectar,
Full of kindness and a prop to those doing good,
Ever with a moonlike face and gift giving cherry-fruit lips,
I ceaselessly worship shAradAmbA, my mother.
PKR
With pot-like breasts and a pot full of nectar,
> Full of kindness and extreme holiness,
> With a moon-disc face and gift giving cherry-fruit
lips,
> I worship shaaradaambaa, ever my ambaa.
Aarathi Sankaran <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: I will try to go further into the meaning
of some of the adjectives.
Please let me know if I am totally off-beat in my interpretation.
prapuNyAvalaMbAM
prakR^iShTaH puNyaH = prapuNyaH (great merit as in puNya and not pApa)
(janAH) prapuNyena avalaMbate yAm tAm = prapuNyAvalaMbAM
She who is attained (or literally caught hold of) only by those who have
done good deeds and thereby have great puNya.
AsyendubiMbAM sadAnoSThabiMbAM
Ambaa's face is almost always compared to the moon. Further in
Saundaryalahiri her face is likened to the sharatkAla chandra (verse 15
sharajjyotsnAshuddhAm). The idea here is that autumn comes after
varShAkAla and hence there are no clouds. There would be no hindrances
and the light would be perceived very clearly. Similarly the devi's face
is also like a sharatkAla moon enabling us to receive the gift of
knowledge from her lips.
Suggestions welcome.
Aarathi.
peekayar wrote:
> 1
>
> suvakSojakuMbhAM sudhApUrNakuMbhAM
> prasAdAvalaMbAM prapuNyAvalaMbAM
> sadAsyendubiMbAM sadAnoSThabiMbAM
> bhaje shAradAMbAM ajasraM madambAm
>
> With pot-like breasts and a pot full of nectar,
> Full of kindness and extreme holiness,
> With a moon-disc face and gift giving cherry-fruit lips,
> I worship shaaradaambaa, ever my ambaa.
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