Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
steve_nor...@msn.com Send me a photo of the reproducer or let me know what is says on the back, if it is the one I think it is they are all brass and easy to rebuild. I will take flak for this, but when I tested an Orthophonic No. 5 Victor and a Viva-Tonal reproducer on my Victor VI the Viva-Tonal sounded better. This was a fair comparison of both reproducers with the same horn. Naturally the Orthophonic No. 5 Victor sounded much better on my VV 8-12 than it does on my Victor VI. Personally I think the Viva-Tonal is a better reproducer for two reasons. It is much, much, much easier to rebuild and it does not have the unwanted sound coming from the other side not connected to the horn. Mr. Orthophonic tells me it is incorrect to test the Orthophonic No. 5 Victor independently from the machine due to the matched impedance and I agree. Ever wonder why Victor Orthophonic machines tell you to close the lid or put the cap with the felt on the suitcase models? To deaden the unwanted sound which the Viva-Tonal does not have to the same degree. I do have a world famous friend who feels the Viva-Tonals sound better than the Victor Orthophonic machines, he is in a position to sound test, I am not, as he owns both with practically all model of both. I can only sound test on Victor VI. Interestingly the Viva-Tonal uses the same size ball bearings as the first style Orthophonic No. 5 Victor. As long as I am taking flak I also enjoy paying my monthly bills. Sound is objective, I spoke with another famous man who restores early sound systems like the Edison C-2 and he as the equipment to measure sound. Some people can only hear a limited range of sound, others had very differing opinions of the same sound. Some people like Larry can pick out all the instruments in an orchestra record while others can only differentiate volume. Steve From: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 02:08:49 + I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line?
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
YMMV of course, but I had a chance at this myself and passed due to too many issues that I could see as well as envision. I love the Viva-Tonals (I collect sand research Columbia exclusively) and could have easily dealt with any issues involved getting the phonograph operational, but I just did not want to take on some of the cabinet issues I saw (some of which you have noted). The seller when I asked about them was a bit too stubborn and vague, equally about the price. She would not share any better photos with me of the case (with better detail of the condition) and especially the horn behind the screen. Instead I got pics of irrelevant Victor accessories. I decided to give it a pass and wait for either a better conditioned mid sized 700 series (a later model with the autobrake) or a larger 800¹s. Just my 2 cents. Again YMMV A in MA From: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Reply-To: Antique Phonograph List phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Friday, August 7, 2015 at 10:08 PM To: phono-l@oldcrank.org phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line?
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
You don't see too many of the Columbia Viva-tonals and I think a lot of what you are seeing (oxidation for example) is an artifact of the photography. The pics are probably a bit overexposed. The sound nice especially in the mid range. Bass is not as good as the Orthophonics. I have one of the larger consoles and I don't think the horn needs re-sealing. The reproducer is brass and what I found to make the biggest improvement in its sound was to lubricate the needle bar bearings. Ron From: Antique Phonograph List [mailto:phono-l@oldcrank.org] Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:02 PM To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line? Image removed by sender.
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
I have the Columbia 613 and 810, both VivaTonal models. The 600 series has a simple curved wooden horn, nearly identical to those used in the small Victor ortho machines such as the 4-3. And the small Columbias sound very similar to the small Victors which is very good for their size. The 800 series Columbias have very large horns and were supposed to compete with the large horn Victors such as the Credenza. But the large Columbia horn is NOT exponential in taper and does not sound as good as the big Victors. The big Columbia sound is a bit muddier with noticeably less treble. I don't know about the 700 series Columbias, but I would assume that the horns in them are similar to the mid-size Victors. But if I were to guess, I'd assume that the mid-size Columbias probably are not quite as good sounding as the mid-size Victors. The big Columbia horn is made of a number of flat and curved pieces of wood that must be sealed at their joints. And these seals will likely need to be renewed during your restoration. The Columbia motors are quiet and smooth. They all incorporate an automatic shutoff that must be set for the record ending diameter in a way similar to the early Victor shutoff mechanisms. All the Columbia VivaTonals use the #15 reproducer which has the distinct advantage that it has NO potmetal parts. It is easily rebuildable, but it uses an unusual molded rubber coupling that mounts the body to the metal sleeve that is used to connect with the tonearm. These original rubber bits will almost certainly be turned to stone, but so far as I know there are no reproductions of them available. Most people who own these have finagled a custom replacement frammis of some type to replace the rubber piece. People's opinions on the sound of the reproducers vary. But the Columbia #15 is heavier than the Victor #5 ortho and has a stiffer (lower) compliance with a higher mechanical resonance. This results in less bass and a response that is tilted toward a higher midrangey sound. I have made a set of adapters that allows me to mount either reproducer on both Columbia VivaTonal and Victor ortho machines. My opinion is that the Columbia #15 is not as good sounding as the Victor #5 when used on any of the phonographs. The Columbia reproducer has less bass response and higher distortion while also producing more record wear due to the higher tracking force due to its higher weight and its lower compliance. Still, the Columbia VivaTonal machines are nice enough sounding and make a good comparison of the technologies of the two companies' products of the same vintage. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Antique Phonograph List To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:01 PM Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line? --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
$225 seems fine for this one. I paid $125 for a 700 in nice shape, over 30 years ago. Their sound can be most excellent. - Original Message - From: Antique Phonograph List To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:01 PM Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line? ___ Phono-L mailing list http://phono-l.org
Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710
I am always happy to be corrected by an expert I respect. I really enjoyed reading this, thanks Greg. Steve From: phono-l@oldcrank.org Subject: Re: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Date: Sat, 8 Aug 2015 03:29:21 + I have the Columbia 613 and 810, both VivaTonal models. The 600 series has a simple curved wooden horn, nearly identical to those used in the small Victor ortho machines such as the 4-3. And the small Columbias sound very similar to the small Victors which is very good for their size. The 800 series Columbias have very large horns and were supposed to compete with the large horn Victors such as the Credenza. But the large Columbia horn is NOT exponential in taper and does not sound as good as the big Victors. The big Columbia sound is a bit muddier with noticeably less treble. I don't know about the 700 series Columbias, but I would assume that the horns in them are similar to the mid-size Victors. But if I were to guess, I'd assume that the mid-size Columbias probably are not quite as good sounding as the mid-size Victors. The big Columbia horn is made of a number of flat and curved pieces of wood that must be sealed at their joints. And these seals will likely need to be renewed during your restoration. The Columbia motors are quiet and smooth. They all incorporate an automatic shutoff that must be set for the record ending diameter in a way similar to the early Victor shutoff mechanisms. All the Columbia VivaTonals use the #15 reproducer which has the distinct advantage that it has NO potmetal parts. It is easily rebuildable, but it uses an unusual molded rubber coupling that mounts the body to the metal sleeve that is used to connect with the tonearm. These original rubber bits will almost certainly be turned to stone, but so far as I know there are no reproductions of them available. Most people who own these have finagled a custom replacement frammis of some type to replace the rubber piece. People's opinions on the sound of the reproducers vary. But the Columbia #15 is heavier than the Victor #5 ortho and has a stiffer (lower) compliance with a higher mechanical resonance. This results in less bass and a response that is tilted toward a higher midrangey sound. I have made a set of adapters that allows me to mount either reproducer on both Columbia VivaTonal and Victor ortho machines. My opinion is that the Columbia #15 is not as good sounding as the Victor #5 when used on any of the phonographs. The Columbia reproducer has less bass response and higher distortion while also producing more record wear due to the higher tracking force due to its higher weight and its lower compliance. Still, the Columbia VivaTonal machines are nice enough sounding and make a good comparison of the technologies of the two companies' products of the same vintage. Greg Bogantz - Original Message - From: Antique Phonograph List To: phono-l@oldcrank.org Sent: Friday, August 07, 2015 10:01 PM Subject: [Phono-L] Columbia Viva-Tonal model 710 I've wanted to have a nice Columbia Viva-Tonal phonograph for a long time, and now I have the opportunity to buy a model 710. Not being famailiar with these -- I've never actually seen one in person -- I'm wondering what kind of cosmetic work this will need. It seems the green trim paint is faded in some places, and largely gone in others (note front center above the speaker grille in the second photo). The nickel plating on the tone arm and reproducer appears to be heavily oxidized, as well. I don't know what other cosmetic or mechanical issues it may have; are there common known issues with this model, and with Viva-Tonals in general? Do the horns usually need to be re-sealed? Are the reproducers pot metal? I've read these don't have a stop; does that mean it doesn't have an automatic stop, or (forgive me) any stop at all? How do these machines sound, in general? (Personally, I don't think Grafonolas sound very good.) Finally, the seller says he won't take any less than $225 for it; I know value is in the eye of the beholder, but does this seem reasonable to you, or is it way out of line? This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. www.avast.com
