I think I've seen people post about playing with Japanese rules in
relation to MC programs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I saw
people do some adjustment in that case. Does that mean they actually
use Chinese scoring internal
On Thu, 2008-11-06 at 17:10 +0100, Erik van der Werf wrote:
> IIRC under official Japanese rules at the end of the game all groups
> with liberties shared between opposing colours are by definition in
> seki. Therefore eventually (before counting) all dame have to be
> filled.
Mark Boon wrote:
I think I've seen people post about playing with Japanese rules in
relation to MC programs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I saw
people do some adjustment in that case. Does that mean they actually
use Chinese scoring internal
On Feb 2, 2009, at 2:19 PM, Rémi Coulom wrote:
Mark Boon wrote:
I think I've seen people post about playing with Japanese rules in
relation to MC programs. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think I saw
people do some adjustment in that case. Does that mean they
actually use Chine
ay, February 04, 2009 2:05 AM
> To: computer-go
> Subject: Re: [computer-go] MC and Japanese rules
>
> David Fotland a écrit :
> > This is what I do in Many Faces, and score seki Japanese style at the
end.
> >
> > David
> >
> >
> >> Other than tha
Japanese version of the result of 2nd GPW Cup Computer Go Tournament
is available at
http://sig-gi.c.u-tokyo.ac.jp/gpw/2008/night.html#go-results
English version follows.
Ten programs from three countries were participated and we changed
planed alternating BW round-robin to simple one
lever Japanese player would pass earlier.
Rémi
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David Fotland a écrit :
This is what I do in Many Faces, and score seki Japanese style at the end.
David
Other than that, I'd take a different approach:
- play out as usual. Instead of counting stones + eyes on the board,
you count eyes + prisoners + nr-opponent's passes duri
This "extra bonus for black" is commonly known by Japanese Go players
who know Chinese rules. That is, the result of a game is the same if
either rules is used (Japanese or Chinese) in simple games (i.e. no
Seki etc.) except this extra bonus for black when the number of moves
of t
ps? If you blindly pass after the opponent's pass and thereby
terminate the game, who will own the unsettled group under Japanese rules?
Here is what Fuego does:
Fuego uses Tromp-Taylor rules internally, which makes scoring of
terminal positions after two passes trivial. If the value of the roo
Mark Boon wrote:
>> Look at the attached file. This position is win for black in Japanese
>> rules, but the only correct move is pass. If black plays anywhere other
>> than pass, he loses. This time white's correct move is pass, otherwise
>> he loses. Such a condition
This is what I do in Many Faces, and score seki Japanese style at the end.
David
>
> Other than that, I'd take a different approach:
>
> - play out as usual. Instead of counting stones + eyes on the board,
> you count eyes + prisoners + nr-opponent's passes during
oblem
with UCT tree.
Look at the attached file. This position is win for black in Japanese
rules, but the only correct move is pass. If black plays anywhere other
than pass, he loses. This time white's correct move is pass, otherwise
he loses. Such a condition breaks winning rate values in
approach the correct move
the more you loose, as in ladders. (see my post
"MC/UCT question" 6, December)
On the Chinese/Japanese question:
>This cuts both ways. Wouldn't it be pretty silly if
>I was watching a Japanese game and continuously
>criticized certain moves as
Japanese rules
What if the playout uses the AGA rule of paying 1 point for a pass and
requiring white to pass last (so the game does not end by two passes if black
plays the second pass).
Wouldn't the score then be equivalent to the japanese score?
Dave
" wrote:
Hello all, two questions.
(i) Do there exist strong 9x9-go programs on Monte-Carlo base
for Japanese rules?
(ii) Having available only programs for Chinese rules, but playing
in a tournament with Japanese rules, which special tricks and
settings should be used to maximise winning cha
;
> I think this scheme works for the playout itself, but I have a problem
> with UCT tree.
>
> Look at the attached file. This position is win for black in Japanese
> rules, but the only correct move is pass. If black plays anywhere other
> than pass, he loses. This time white&#x
which are weak
would have a really tough time with Japanese scoring.
I personally put a lot of weight on making my bot playable with people. I
have ignored this aspect of my bot since going MC since I've been doing a
lot of rewriting and getting basic functionality. Now that my bot has
achieved
EMAIL PROTECTED] namens Mark Boon
Verzonden: do 6-11-2008 17:11
Aan: computer-go
Onderwerp: Re: [computer-go] Monte-Carlo and Japanese rules
Although what Don writes is all correct, I understood the question to
be rather different. It's not a matter of being able to determine the
right score at
e it feels good" style of most
traditional go books. The rules might be useful in MC heavy playouts.
Going back to the topic, for 19x19 at least, I would suggest make an
opening book from pro and strong amateur games. Only start using MCTS
once you leave the book. Using MCTS on the first mov
curity margin
with respect to komi. Who passes first in the playout is
meaningless. A clever Japanese player would pass earlier.
Rémi
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Of course everyone will see this differently. For me the fundamental
difference between 9x9 and 19x19 is obvious. People play 19x19 seriously
and have for at least 2000 years. A commercial program has to play 19x19
well, and has to play by Japanese rules. It has to be enjoyable to play
against
which
rules are applied. So I perhaps would have to avoid a pairing between a program
that only plays chinese rules like some MC-programs do and one that only
plays japanese rules like some older programs. But if possible I would try
to never exlude any program from participation only of cause of t
. One
rationale for this would be that it keeps the score comparable to the Japanese
rulesets, where stones on the board do not count as territory.
The server would have to make and enforce some particular rule.
Regarding handicap stones, I'd suggest "free placement", for consistenc
was assuming Chinese rules, but in practice it
never mattered.
13 games were played and the total score was 8-5 for CzechBot. I wonder
how would they play if on even grounds. The general game pattern was the
usual wild middlegame wrestling typical of MC, with CzechBot usually
getting large edge
Well MC-UCT programs (Mogo, CrazyStone and many others) need more CPU.
Doubling the CPU gives a constant raise in playing level. There are
even some threads about the issue. But becoming -say - 6 stones
stronger I guess they would need more then 2^6 times more CPU. Also
there could be a corner
s list more
> than the wishy-washy "play here because it feels good" style of most
> traditional go books. The rules might be useful in MC heavy playouts.
>
> Going back to the topic, for 19x19 at least, I would suggest make an
> opening book from pro and strong amateur games
es of thumb
of
this nature. It will probably appeal to the people on this list more
than the wishy-washy "play here because it feels good" style of most
traditional go books. The rules might be useful in MC heavy
playouts.
Going back to the topic, for 19x19 at least, I would suggest
d and the outcome is 6.5
Bot A is declared the winner.
If such a competition existed, would others be interested in competing?
On Nov 6, 2007 10:48 AM, Jason House <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Nov 6, 2007 10:30 AM, Lars Schäfers <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> > By the
to find that I broke many other things at
>the same time.)
Although I'm afraid my English skill is enough to understand such a
long paragraph correctly (shorter is better :), I believe it's just a
choice. Some are good at developing an essential solution but not
all. As I know I'
p. But when the
> program counts, surprise!, it wins by 0.5 points Chinese.
> The users were thinking Japanese even if they accepted
> Chinese rules. In fact, they did not have the choice.
> They get the impression the game was stolen by
> "technicalities" after they saw the
e Wilcox has numerous rules of thumb of
>> this nature. It will probably appeal to the people on this list more
>> than the wishy-washy "play here because it feels good" style of most
>> traditional go books. The rules might be useful in MC heavy playouts.
>>
>> Go
On Wed, 2007-12-05 at 17:52 -0800, terry mcintyre wrote:
> I just finished a few 19x19 games with the freely downloadable version
> of Mogo, and noticed that Mogo loses a fair number of points in the
> endgame.
This is typical of MC engines...
If it's winning by 100.5 points,
to believe that we have taken it nearly as far as it
will go.It may be the case for any given individual that they cant' t
Petri Pitkanen wrote:
Well MC-UCT programs (Mogo, CrazyStone and many others) need more CPU.
Doubling the CPU gives a constant raise in playing level. Ther
to tune.
I've implemented and used the idea for the first UEC Cup Computer-Go
tournament (19x19, Japanese rules) on Dec. 1-2 and was 5th/27
participants.
http://jsb.cs.uec.ac.jp/~igo/eng/ #No results in English pages.
It's easy to implement but hard to tune, though by my experiments.
The
> already so strong I don't think it's getting much attention.
I haven't kept up with the state of the art in scrabble but I know that
MC techniques work well.
I build a scrabble player years ago for my mother (who loves scrabble)
and all it did was play the highest scoring move
programmers and operators involved.
The tournament was a double round-robin tournament, so each program
played as W and B against each opponent. All games were 19x19, 45
minutes per side sudden death, Chinese rules, 7.5 komi. Here are the
results in traditional round-robin format
plugged, so
ManyFaces was running at half speed to conserve power. The laptop was properly
plugged in mid-game and ManyFaces went on to win the game anyway.
In Leela-GNU, KGS reported a win for GNU under Japanese rules, because we had
failed to set one of our KgsGtp configuration files to specify Ch
in the game anyway.
In Leela-GNU, KGS reported a win for GNU under Japanese rules,
because we had failed to set one of our KgsGtp configuration files
to specify Chinese rules. Since both programs believed that they
were playing under Chinese rules, we re-scored under Chinese rules
and fou
Chihiro Hashimoto Laptop 0
10
Note: 9 x 9, Chinese rules, Komi 7.5, 15 minutes absolute.
Katsunari is a classical, others are uct/mc programs. Casablanca and
Boozer are under development.
As almost all expected :-), Crazy Stone won all the games. AyaMC
had some
10
6 Boozer Chihiro Hashimoto Laptop 0
10
Note: 9 x 9, Chinese rules, Komi 7.5, 15 minutes absolute.
Katsunari is a classical, others are uct/mc programs. Casablanca and
Boozer are under development.
As almost all expected :-), Crazy Stone won
sult is a forgone conclusion. This is a combination
of problems with the play to the bitter end and the UCT MC scoring
approach of maximizing win probabilities. If the position is already a
win for either side, almost any move is playable.This could also a
problem in human games. You don&#
also appreciate it if the old versions of the report can be removed
completely. The last thing I want is for a potential employer to google me
and find one of those pages. They're very easy to misinterpret, especially
given that my uniform-playout MC bot's performance was on par for 19x
on par for 19x19 with relatively short time limits.
Once upon a time, people thought MC bots would not scale to 19x19.
Local biases in playouts, move ordering, and possibly progressive
widening have changed all that. I hope to do that one day, but I don't
yet.
PS: You'll be happy to he
rograms due to misunderstanding of L&D at corners
>> with nakade.
>>
>I'm impressed if you actually got a measurable improvement doing this.
>I have no doubt that in hand picked individual positions it will play
>better. When I test things like this I am no
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