from:"a"

> you’re right, i apologize. big difference between being a total knob vs 
> exhibiting knob behavior in certain instances. and there’s no excuse for 
> aspersion.

i would not add html to your email.
thank you.

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread fig

> i would not call people "losers"

you’re right, i apologize. big difference between being a total knob vs
exhibiting knob behavior in certain instances. and there’s no excuse for
aspersion.

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

> This mailing list pre-dates the evident new philosophy of cancel-culture. 
> Back when this was still an only mildly hostile place the policy was "don't 
> feed the troll". We did indeed believe that ignoring (at worst adding their 
> address to an "ignore" list) was sufficient to deal with it. But I am aware 
> that the times, they are a-changin'.

more like, this is where that form of trolling first got invented...
and cancel-culture always existed, just the term is new.

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

> Why can’t we remove these losers from the mailing list? Look at this mess. If 
> you want to ask ChatGPT about 9front, by all means, it’s your computer. But 
> dumping walls of verbal diarrhea into the ML and onto LinkedIn and making 
> everyone fight over it is such a waste of time. I understand it’s hard to not 
> participate in these dumpster fires, here I am piling on myself, but it’s 
> just to say, good lord, can we please stop entertaining these people? Or is 
> keeping flame wars and off-topic bickering out of a mailing list like asking 
> the bowling alley on the second floor to keep the noise down?

just lead by example.
i would not call people "losers", and what you said has been said already.

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Re: [9fans] fossil [was: List of companies that use Plan 9.]

2024-05-17 Thread wb . kloke

Just a simple note. When I compared the fossil version posted by Moody in the 
original discussion thread to the one I am using (and IIRC  it is the one in 
the 9legacy git repository), I found that they differed in 2 points. One was 
the increase of a msg buffer, which is probably no big issue, but the other one 
was the omission of one deadlock patchin 9leagcy git distro.
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Re: [9fans] fossil [was: List of companies that use Plan 9.]

2024-05-17 Thread David du Colombier

> Responding off list shortly :)

I'd like to be included into the discussion as well.

Thanks.

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

I would _love_ a complete list of known issues.

What I'm aware of:

- IIRC ORCLOSE doesn't work properly (visible as acme leaving temporary
files around after exiting)
- At least one deadlock remaining
- Syncs are not atomic, so a crash can render the system unbootable if
e.g. termrc was being written to disk. I've seen this repeatedly.
- It's not just non-atomic; the resulting state is usually an empty
file. Conjecture: blocks are being allocated, the file points at the new
blocks, the old data has not been copied yet.
- Multiple bugs in the file system checker. Nothing that messes with
data integrity, thankfully! I have needed multiple passes though, as a
single run does not fully clean up the file system. (Noticed this one
when cleaning up after the go failures :P)
- Also seen a deadlock while running `check fix` in the console while
loading the file system, I think, but I don't remember for sure.

I've almost certainly run into more than this. I run into fossil bugs
probably once every two or three months and usually haven't bothered
noting them down because I don't lose data when they happen and they're
rare enough I haven't bothered investigating most of them yet.



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Re: [9fans] fossil [was: List of companies that use Plan 9.]

Responding off list shortly :)

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[9fans] fossil [was: List of companies that use Plan 9.]

2024-05-17 Thread Richard Miller

Noam Preil:
> I demonstrated one
> of the problems with fossil by (attempting to) install Go, which crashes
> the file system _every single time_.

This is a useful bit of evidence that needs following up.  The go test
suite (which begins by installing and completely rebuilding go) is
running 24/7 on a cluster of Raspberry Pi machines in my front hall,
using fossil from 9legacy source.  If you look in the plan9 arm column
on https://build.golang.org you can click on any 'ok' entry (and
nearly any 'fail' entry) and you'll see a successful installation of
go on fossil ...  literally thousands of them if you follow the
sequence of 'older' pages.

If you get in touch with me off list, I'd really like to
work with you to find out what is different between my environment
and yours which leads to such different observations. My principal
reason for running the go tests has been to try to shake out more bugs
from Plan 9 and fossil. So any other replicatable data I can get is
most welcome.

> I have found multiple deadlocks over the last few years, and only
> bothered fixing one of them.

In a discussion on 9fans in April 2023, the fossil-deadlocks.diff
patch on 9legacy.org was mentioned. Have you witnessed any more
deadlocks since you applied that one?


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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread Lucio De Re

This mailing list pre-dates the evident new philosophy of cancel-culture.
Back when this was still an only mildly hostile place the policy was "don't
feed the troll". We did indeed believe that ignoring (at worst adding their
address to an "ignore" list) was sufficient to deal with it. But I am aware
that the times, they are a-changin'.

Lucio.

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 7:51 PM fig  wrote:

> > The document is blatantly AI-generated
> > Not accurate at all
>
> Why can’t we remove these losers from the mailing list? Look at this mess.
> If you want to ask ChatGPT about 9front, by all means, it’s your computer.
> But dumping walls of verbal diarrhea into the ML and onto LinkedIn and
> making everyone fight over it is such a waste of time. I understand it’s
> hard to not participate in these dumpster fires, here I am piling on
> myself, but it’s just to say, good lord, can we please stop entertaining
> these people? Or is keeping flame wars and off-topic bickering out of a
> mailing list like asking the bowling alley on the second floor to keep the
> noise down?
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions
>  + participants
>  + delivery options
>  Permalink
> 
>


-- 
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2 Piet Retief St
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9860 South Africa

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Cell: +27 83 251 5824

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread fig

> The document is blatantly AI-generated
> Not accurate at all

Why can’t we remove these losers from the mailing list? Look at this mess.
If you want to ask ChatGPT about 9front, by all means, it’s your computer.
But dumping walls of verbal diarrhea into the ML and onto LinkedIn and
making everyone fight over it is such a waste of time. I understand it’s
hard to not participate in these dumpster fires, here I am piling on
myself, but it’s just to say, good lord, can we please stop entertaining
these people? Or is keeping flame wars and off-topic bickering out of a
mailing list like asking the bowling alley on the second floor to keep the
noise down?

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-17 Thread Lucio De Re

"I have a branch of 9front with fossil restored. I have discussed what
would be needed to add fossil upstream again, and there was acceptance
to the possibility if the issues get worked out _first_."

I took the Fossil sources from whatever was the most readily available
distribution and after locating a single duplicated constant (56 * 1024 on
one hand and 64 * (2<<10) on the other, I hacked one away), Fossil compiled
on 9front without a hitch. Good enough for me to feel I can use it to
rescue my "precious" data. My fear was that I would not be able to afford
such a rescue if it got much more complex than that. So let's put to bed
any delusion that I want Fossil included in 9front, I was quite satisfied
with protestations that something no worse than the 9legacy version was in
fact available with minimal effort.

On the other hand, I am disappointed that the door unlocked by Venti and
barely held ajar by Fossil may slam shut to 9front users and to that end I
am going to make a new request. Now this is not an "or else" request, nor a
promise, merely a wish based on comments in this forum to the effect that
failures have been identified in Fossil (and Venti, too).

If such a list already exists, that would be extremely welcome (to me, at
least). If not, perhaps a summary of the type of triggers that cause
failures would be helpful, at least as much as knowing who are the most
knowledgeable developers in connection with this aspect. If all that's
available is some hazy description, well, that's perfectly OK, if
disappointing. Maybe for someone like me that will turn out sufficient to
continue Fossil/Venti development. It's tempting to point out that trying
to compete with 9front developers would be a mug's game, so not including a
version of Fossil/Venti that can be successfully compiled and deployed is
not going to handicap any 9legacy development.

Again, none of the above is intended to cast aspersions on anyone. I
reserve my opinions on the emotional undercurrents in the discussions that
are still taking place here, but the value of the emotional baggage
involved, in my opinion, is precisely zero, even though I have had quite a
few occasions for muttering and even cursing into my beard (or is it under
my breath?).

Lucio.

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 6:53 PM Noam Preil  wrote:

> I have found multiple deadlocks over the last few years, and only
> bothered fixing one of them. That patch is in 9legacy, as well, now.
> 
> During my IWP9 talk in which, among other things, I explained why I
> intend to replace fossil despite curently using it, I demonstrated one
> of the problems with fossil by (attempting to) install Go, which crashes
> the file system _every single time_.
> 
> I personally fixed over a dozen issues in Venti, and continue to find
> more. To the best of my knowledge, those patches are currently _only_
> present in 9front. I was not aware 9legacy existed when I did that
> work.
> 
> I've lost some data to fossil crashes, since if it e.g. loses power
> during a sync, it will end up _erasing_ a file rather than preserving
> the old version, which has _broken boot_ if the system crashed while I
> was editing lib/profile.
> 
> I have a branch of 9front with fossil restored. I have discussed what
> would be needed to add fossil upstream again, and there was acceptance
> to the possibility if the issues get worked out _first_.
> 
> The hostility on this list is pervasive and comes from all sides. If
> your goal is positive engagement, this is not the place to do it.
> 

-- 
Lucio De Re
2 Piet Retief St
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9860 South Africa

Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
Cell: +27 83 251 5824

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-17 Thread vester . thacker

On Sat, May 18, 2024, at 01:26, Noam Preil wrote:
> The only company listed there is yours, no?
>
> That's not a good look.

On a long enough timeline, it will not matter.  

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

he already admitted he's using grammarly.

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 7:00 PM Noam Preil  wrote:
> 
> There's a clear pattern, though. The document is blatantly AI-generated,
> and I believe that the author acknowledged it as such ("the model was
> confirmed as trained on 9front sources"); even if it wasn't, the logical
> mistakes it makes are of a type humans don't generally make.
> 
> The author has many posts that _all_ feature A.I. art. The arguments
> they make have no connection to the premises, although in fairness
> that's a hallmark of bad human writing too. The sources cited have no
> connection to the arguments being made.
> 
> It is not unreasonable to assume that someone who is clearly relying so
> heavily on LLMs might be doing so on the mailing list when so many of
> their posts clearly resemble LLM output.
> 
> Hell, even if they're not using an LLM, if someone is writing with the
> _quality_ of an LLM, they're not worth engaging with. "This horrible
> spam-looking content was actually written by a person!" is not a great
> defense.
> 
> - Noam Preil
> 

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Re: [9fans] RISC-V SoC available in Europe?

2024-05-17 Thread tlaronde

On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 10:13:45AM +0100, Andrew Back wrote:
> On 16/05/2024 09:54, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:
> 
> > I add these that I finally found (not easily) in France. From
> > Microchip, the expensive:
> > 
> > https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/494-MPFSICICLE-KITES
> > 
> > and this:
> > 
> > https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Microchip-Technology/MPFS-DISCO-KIT?qs=mELouGlnn3f1eYzoy8b3wQ%3D%3D
> > 
> > If someone has a technical advice (in the hardware area, I'm a
> > beginner) about whether the expensive one is justified because it will
> > allow far more information for debugging, testing etc. I will gladly
> > listen.
> 
> The Microchip dev kit has an on-board programmer, whereas with BeagleV Fire
> you need to buy a USB programmer, but the cheaper of the two options is
> around 100 Euro. This is used to load the bitstream which configures the
> FPGA and I wasn't sure about RISC-V CPU debug, but a quick search turned up
> this page on the Zephyr website which suggests that the same FlashPro5/6
> hardware can be used with GDB.
> 
> https://docs.zephyrproject.org/latest/boards/beagle/beaglev_fire/doc/index.html#debugging
> 
> Other than that it looks like the official dev kit maybe has more I/O and
> also a full size PCIe slot, rather than M.2. You'd need to compare the
> datasheets, but generally speaking the official dev kit will be aimed more
> at companies who want to do custom hardware designs and so it may have
> things like additional test points, and will be the officially supported
> platform if you're working with Microchip. Whereas the BeagleV Fire board is
> targeted more at enthusiasts and being more accessible.

Thanks once more for your advice.

I finally went for BeagleV-Fire, and since it was available from
France, I bought it here:

https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/BeagleBoard-by-Seeed-Studio/102110898?qs=HoCaDK9Nz5eU8X3%252BpFx5gw%3D%3D

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

There's a clear pattern, though. The document is blatantly AI-generated,
and I believe that the author acknowledged it as such ("the model was
confirmed as trained on 9front sources"); even if it wasn't, the logical
mistakes it makes are of a type humans don't generally make.

The author has many posts that _all_ feature A.I. art. The arguments
they make have no connection to the premises, although in fairness
that's a hallmark of bad human writing too. The sources cited have no
connection to the arguments being made.

It is not unreasonable to assume that someone who is clearly relying so
heavily on LLMs might be doing so on the mailing list when so many of
their posts clearly resemble LLM output.

Hell, even if they're not using an LLM, if someone is writing with the
_quality_ of an LLM, they're not worth engaging with. "This horrible
spam-looking content was actually written by a person!" is not a great
defense.

- Noam Preil


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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

I have found multiple deadlocks over the last few years, and only
bothered fixing one of them. That patch is in 9legacy, as well, now.

During my IWP9 talk in which, among other things, I explained why I
intend to replace fossil despite curently using it, I demonstrated one
of the problems with fossil by (attempting to) install Go, which crashes
the file system _every single time_.

I personally fixed over a dozen issues in Venti, and continue to find
more. To the best of my knowledge, those patches are currently _only_
present in 9front. I was not aware 9legacy existed when I did that
work.

I've lost some data to fossil crashes, since if it e.g. loses power
during a sync, it will end up _erasing_ a file rather than preserving
the old version, which has _broken boot_ if the system crashed while I
was editing lib/profile.

I have a branch of 9front with fossil restored. I have discussed what
would be needed to add fossil upstream again, and there was acceptance
to the possibility if the issues get worked out _first_.

The hostility on this list is pervasive and comes from all sides. If
your goal is positive engagement, this is not the place to do it.



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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

The only company listed there is yours, no?

That's not a good look.



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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

It is not, but in fairness, some people really do write the same way
that the LLMs do, so it's not impossible for a real person to appear to
be an LLM.

I'm leaning towards LLM-generated, anyways. It's far too similar in
structure / syntax to other AI spam I've had to deal with recently.


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Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front

> The absence of Fossil from 9front was the one I found most difficult to
> overcome, but at least in theory only the equivalent of "fossil/conf" (an
> rc script I eventually shoehorned from plan9port) is essential. I can see
> how it would be inconvenient to need to support software that is
> significantly complex, especially when it must also be able to be embedded
> in the kernel.

Actually, adding fossil back in to 9front is extremely simple; I have a
branch at https://git.sr.ht/~pixelherodev/plan9 which has fossil
integrated.

The talk I gave at IWP9 was running from fossil on my 9front branch.

If my changes are too extensive compared to 9front (it's a personal
branch, so I wouldn't blame you for thinking that), I'm happy to even
create a branch that's just 9front+fossil. It's really not hard.

- Noam Preil


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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

A document that had no research put into it is not a first draft, it's
at best spam.

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

no.

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 4:47 PM Michael Kerpan  wrote:
>
> Could people please stop accusing people of being fake just because they 
> write verbosly? That kind of behavior is part and parcel of the incredibly 
> rude and mean-spirited behavior mentioned in that LinkedIn thing.
>
> Mike
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2024, 10:21 AM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> or rename that linkedin garbage to "using AI to disincentivize open
>> discussion communities"
>>
>> On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 4:16 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:
>> >
>> > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f/
>> >
>> > This linked-in article is frankly disgusting, I suggest you take this 
>> > incorrect garbage down.
>> >
>> >
>> > On 5/17/24 07:43, Samuel Reader via 9fans wrote:
>> > > It is only a first draft, and it is not a finished product. I'll correct 
>> > > the mistakes found.
>> > >
>> > > Thank you for the kind feedback.
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > >
>> > > Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>> > >
>> > > On Friday, May 17th, 2024 at 9:31 PM, qwx via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> 
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >> On Fri May 17 13:33:21 +0200 2024, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
>> > >>
>> > >>> an other interesting reading :
>> > >>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card
>> > >>
>> > >>
>> > >> I'm appalled and frankly furious about this article. It's blatant
>> > >> slander which can affect me in my professional career. I'm a phD
>> > >> candidate and my work is based on Plan 9 and developed on 9front; I
>> > >> was going to present it at iwp9 but could not once the venue was
>> > >> changed as it rendered it incompatible with my time table.
>> > >>
>> > >> The article lacks references to many of its claims, and the remaining
>> > >> ones directly contradict its points. The Register article is even
>> > >> linked incorrectly. A superficial reader would not bother to try to
>> > >> follow the links or find the article. For me this is clearly
>> > >> malicious attention-seeking.
>> > >>
>> > >> Regarding the pdf posted earlier[1], almost all of it is factually
>> > >> incorrect. As an example, there are no drivers for modern nvidia or
>> > >> amd chips or bluetooth. Many of the "system calls" listed in the pdf
>> > >> are not system calls (proccreate) or simply don't exit (vlongtime),
>> > >> and so on. In addition, it is trivial to recreate the same content
>> > >> with a query like the following: `Generate a detailed book-style
>> > >> document called "Revitalizing Plan 9: integrating modern enhacements
>> > >> into 9legacy" detailing all improvements introduced in 9front compared
>> > >> to 9legacy'. See for yourself in an excerpt below my email.
>> > >>
>> > >> I don't understand what the goal here is. All this post and pdf
>> > >> accomplish is spreading misinformation, promoting cancel culture,
>> > >> fostering community division and discouraging collaboration with
>> > >> 9front and even 9legacy, directly contradicting both Vic's claims and
>> > >> that of those who have sided with him in the thread. At this point,
>> > >> use of chatgpt in this thread is blatant and harmful. Please stop.
>> > >>
>> > >> Thanks,
>> > >> qwx
>> > >>
>> > >> [1] 
>> > >> https://link.storjshare.io/s/jx6tw46kfxskld45ussjek46ccpq/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf
>> > >> ---
>> > >>
>> > >> Revitalizing Plan 9: Integrating Modern Enhancements into 9legacy
>> > >> Introduction
>> > >> Plan 9 from Bell Labs has long been recognized for its innovative 
>> > >> approach to distributed computing. However, as hardware and software 
>> > >> technologies advanced, the need for a more modernized version of Plan 9 
>> > >> became apparent. This need led to the development of 9front, a fork of 
>> > >> Plan 9 that incorporates numerous enhancements and updates, surpassing 
>> > >> 9legacy in several key areas. This document details these improvements, 
>> > >> offering a comprehensive comparison of the advancements introduced in 
>> > >> 9front over 9legacy.
>> > >>
>> > >> Chapter 1: Graphics and Video Drivers
>> > >> Improved Graphics Hardware Support
>> > >> One of the most significant areas of enhancement in 9front is its 
>> > >> support for modern graphics hardware. This includes:
>> > >>
>> > >> Support for Newer GPUs: 9front integrates drivers for the latest GPU 
>> > >> models, ensuring compatibility with modern graphics cards from 
>> > >> manufacturers like NVIDIA and AMD.
>> > >> Enhanced Frame Buffer Device: The frame buffer device driver has been 
>> > >> optimized for better performance, providing smoother graphics rendering 
>> > >> and faster display updates.
>> > >> Broad Chipset Compatibility: 9front supports a wider range of graphics 
>> > >> chipsets, allowing it to run on diverse hardware configurations with 
>> > >> improved stability and performance.
>> > >> Advanced Video

Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 07:32:18AM -0400, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
> an other interesting reading :
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card

I love this article very much.  Unhelpful, bossy blowhards should
experience exactly these emotions.  My favorite part was the accusation
of "cancel culture," which I have learned is Boomer code for
"accountability."  They really hate that shit!

If 9front has constructed a culture where someone who calls themselves
"Innovator Harnessing the Power of Open Source: Transforming Businesses,
Empowering Solutions" does not feel welcome, then I am profoundly
satsified with that culture, and commend everyone involved in its
creation.

Anyway, just for the record, nobody in the 9front project has any ill
will toward 9legacy.  Technical concerns like p9sk1, yes, but everyone
agrees there should be *more* Plan 9 out there, not less.  We keep
suggesting that people fork 9front as well, and make 9front Suit And Tie
Edition, Empowering Harnessed Transformative Innovations, with all of
the technical goodies and none of the humor or fun, but nobody seems to
have the drive to make that happen.

If anyone wants help bootstrapping such a project, please let me know
and I'll help however I can.  The existence of something like that might
help deflect all the unfunded mandates people keep trying to demand of
the 9front project, and create a nice home for the sorts of people whose
primary qualifications are that they like to watch and they've been
watching for decades.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread vester . thacker

Ok, I'm back. I stopped by because I heard about the ruckus. I am not wrong 
about my sentiments. I am not submitting disinformation. I'm expressing my 
viewpoint based on my experience and what I've witnessed reading 9fans. Help do 
the right thing and help eliminate abusive behavior.  The article I wrote 
wasn't anything special.  9fans has years of evidence for additional claims. 
I'm grateful that the evidences exist online. If you want me to elaborate, I'll 
write about them. What I want to know is why abusive behavior permitted on the 
9fans mailing list? I do not mind exposing bad behavior to a much broader 
audience so that it can get the attention it deserves so that positive change 
can occur.  Quite honestly, the Plan 9 community would be better for it.

I'm hoping change will happen. It will be good for those that want to 
contribute. It is not about control but rather it is about helping others. 
Putting others down isn't helpful nor being friendly. For anyone that engages 
in abusive behavior, please consider getting professional help. Entitlement 
doesn't justify abuse.

I do not write to be spiteful. I write because I care, and I hope to promote 
positive change.

Sincerely,
Vic

On Fri, May 17, 2024, at 23:49, Jacob Moody wrote:
> Hit the enter key a bit early...
> This is directed at Vic, if that is not clear already.
> To everyone else who called me out for assuming malice on victor's part 
> because he was "just trying to help", does this not
> make my claim more obvious now? This likewise is including AI bullshit, 
> and I suspect my claims about his other mails
> being LLM trash are also correct too. There was no apology owed and 
> none should have been given. This is about the
> furthest thing from "helping" that there is.
>
> To be direct, I have found the misinformation about 9front on this list 
> to be at best highly incompetent and at
> worst actively malicious to spread misinformation. Is this really what 
> our resident "9front-haters" are going to rally behind?
> Like I respect that some people don't like us, that's fine. I get that 
> some people have some differences but AI generated misinformation
> is downright insulting. The demands that 9front do something or change 
> their behavior to match some noncontributor's opinion here is
> frankly also insulting our time. I've generally held respect for the 
> people here who have been around a lot longer, while I may disagree
> I will read and think about what is said here. However is this is the 
> type of behavior that is defended (and therefore encouraged) I am
> not interested at all.
>
> I'll be around on this list to argue against the misinformation 
> campaigns, it is clear that if we were to go away this type of 
> misinformation
> would run rampant. I really expected better.
>
> - Moody
>
> On 5/17/24 09:14, Jacob Moody wrote:
>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f/
>> 
>> This linked-in article is frankly disgusting, I suggest you take this 
>> incorrect garbage down.
>> 
>> 
>> On 5/17/24 07:43, Samuel Reader via 9fans wrote:
>>> It is only a first draft, and it is not a finished product. I'll correct 
>>> the mistakes found. 
>>>
>>> Thank you for the kind feedback.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>>>
>>> On Friday, May 17th, 2024 at 9:31 PM, qwx via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>>>
 On Fri May 17 13:33:21 +0200 2024, pl...@room3420.net wrote:

> an other interesting reading :
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card

 I'm appalled and frankly furious about this article. It's blatant
 slander which can affect me in my professional career. I'm a phD
 candidate and my work is based on Plan 9 and developed on 9front; I
 was going to present it at iwp9 but could not once the venue was
 changed as it rendered it incompatible with my time table.

 The article lacks references to many of its claims, and the remaining
 ones directly contradict its points. The Register article is even
 linked incorrectly. A superficial reader would not bother to try to
 follow the links or find the article. For me this is clearly
 malicious attention-seeking.

 Regarding the pdf posted earlier[1], almost all of it is factually
 incorrect. As an example, there are no drivers for modern nvidia or
 amd chips or bluetooth. Many of the "system calls" listed in the pdf
 are not system calls (proccreate) or simply don't exit (vlongtime),
 and so on. In addition, it is trivial to recreate the same content
 with a query like the following: `Generate a detailed book-style
 document called "Revitalizing Plan 9: integrating modern enhacements
 into 9legacy" detailing all improvements introduced in 9front compared
 to 9legacy'. See

Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 02:22:01PM +, Samuel Reader via 9fans wrote:
> The 2nd draft is out. I've made some corrections as mentioned by others, and 
> I have added those who have helped to the acknowledgements. This draft is 
> only for those that are interested in the content. If you are not interested 
> please disregard. I confirmed the model was trained on 9front resources, 
> including git history.
> 
> https://link.storjshare.io/s/juh72ktckqt2mpdaeebljo7mve2q/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf

This document is full of lies, and I don't think you trained a model at
all.  I'd wager you only applied an inference step, and from an
inexpensive model at that.  Your claim that you "confirmed the model was
trained" just tells me you know as little about large-language models as
you do about Plan 9:  you're the wrong person for this job.

This is not a meaningful contribution to the literature.  Nobody will be
helped by this.  

Samuel Reader was an American hero who fought with John Brown.  If you
share a name with such a famous writer, maybe you can take inspiration
from him and anctually try to write something.

khm

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread plan6

I guess that Vic Thacker and Samuel Reader are the very same person. And Ori, I 
was trying to be sarcastic when I called the linkedin paper "interesting". :)
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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread Jacob Moody

We call it as we see them, it is very clear that Vic is using an LLM. Based on 
his responses to being called out for it
along with the way its been written. The article features AI art as well.
Take one walk down Vic's story postings on linkedin. All AI art, all written in 
the same AI tone.

Assume our accusations are wrong and this is actual human generated writing, 
the misinformation is still insulting and deserves to be called out.

On 5/17/24 09:46, Michael Kerpan wrote:
> Could people please stop accusing people of being fake just because they 
> write verbosly? That kind of behavior is part and parcel of the incredibly 
> rude and mean-spirited behavior mentioned in that LinkedIn thing.
> 
> Mike
> 
> On Fri, May 17, 2024, 10:21 AM hiro <23h...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
> 
> or rename that linkedin garbage to "using AI to disincentivize open
> discussion communities"
> 
> On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 4:16 PM Jacob Moody  > wrote:
> >
> > 
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f/
>  
> 
> >
> > This linked-in article is frankly disgusting, I suggest you take this 
> incorrect garbage down.
> >
> >
> > On 5/17/24 07:43, Samuel Reader via 9fans wrote:
> > > It is only a first draft, and it is not a finished product. I'll 
> correct the mistakes found.
> > >
> > > Thank you for the kind feedback.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
> > >
> > > On Friday, May 17th, 2024 at 9:31 PM, qwx via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net 
> > wrote:
> > >
> > >> On Fri May 17 13:33:21 +0200 2024, pl...@room3420.net 
>  wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> an other interesting reading :
> > >>> 
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card
>  
> 
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I'm appalled and frankly furious about this article. It's blatant
> > >> slander which can affect me in my professional career. I'm a phD
> > >> candidate and my work is based on Plan 9 and developed on 9front; I
> > >> was going to present it at iwp9 but could not once the venue was
> > >> changed as it rendered it incompatible with my time table.
> > >>
> > >> The article lacks references to many of its claims, and the remaining
> > >> ones directly contradict its points. The Register article is even
> > >> linked incorrectly. A superficial reader would not bother to try to
> > >> follow the links or find the article. For me this is clearly
> > >> malicious attention-seeking.
> > >>
> > >> Regarding the pdf posted earlier[1], almost all of it is factually
> > >> incorrect. As an example, there are no drivers for modern nvidia or
> > >> amd chips or bluetooth. Many of the "system calls" listed in the pdf
> > >> are not system calls (proccreate) or simply don't exit (vlongtime),
> > >> and so on. In addition, it is trivial to recreate the same content
> > >> with a query like the following: `Generate a detailed book-style
> > >> document called "Revitalizing Plan 9: integrating modern enhacements
> > >> into 9legacy" detailing all improvements introduced in 9front 
> compared
> > >> to 9legacy'. See for yourself in an excerpt below my email.
> > >>
> > >> I don't understand what the goal here is. All this post and pdf
> > >> accomplish is spreading misinformation, promoting cancel culture,
> > >> fostering community division and discouraging collaboration with
> > >> 9front and even 9legacy, directly contradicting both Vic's claims and
> > >> that of those who have sided with him in the thread. At this point,
> > >> use of chatgpt in this thread is blatant and harmful. Please stop.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> qwx
> > >>
> > >> [1] 
> https://link.storjshare.io/s/jx6tw46kfxskld45ussjek46ccpq/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf
>  
> 
> > >> ---
> > >>
> > >> Revitalizing Plan 9: Integrating Modern Enhancements into 9legacy
> > >> Introduction
> > >> Plan 9 from Bell Labs has long been recognized for its innovative 
> approach to distributed computing. However, as hardware and software 
> technologies advanced, the need for a more modernized version of Plan 9 
> became apparent. This need led to the development of 9front, a fork of Plan 9 
> that incorporates

Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread Dave Eckhardt

> I confirmed the model was trained on 9front resources, including
> git history.

I looked quickly at the document but didn't see a statement that
it was machine-generated text or what the inputs were.  Though
"LLM ethics" are far from settled, I think at this stage it would
be good to state clearly and prominently, up front, that this is
machine-generated text, and to somewhere include information about
which LLM was used, trained on what, and with what sort of prompt.

As a separate matter, though I am not presently a 9front user, as
I quickly skimmed the document it didn't seem clearly accurate.
Is accuracy a goal?  If so, how will it be determined whether or
not that goal has been achieved?

Dave Eckhardt

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread Jacob Moody

Hit the enter key a bit early...
This is directed at Vic, if that is not clear already.
To everyone else who called me out for assuming malice on victor's part because 
he was "just trying to help", does this not
make my claim more obvious now? This likewise is including AI bullshit, and I 
suspect my claims about his other mails
being LLM trash are also correct too. There was no apology owed and none should 
have been given. This is about the
furthest thing from "helping" that there is.

To be direct, I have found the misinformation about 9front on this list to be 
at best highly incompetent and at
worst actively malicious to spread misinformation. Is this really what our 
resident "9front-haters" are going to rally behind?
Like I respect that some people don't like us, that's fine. I get that some 
people have some differences but AI generated misinformation
is downright insulting. The demands that 9front do something or change their 
behavior to match some noncontributor's opinion here is
frankly also insulting our time. I've generally held respect for the people 
here who have been around a lot longer, while I may disagree
I will read and think about what is said here. However is this is the type of 
behavior that is defended (and therefore encouraged) I am
not interested at all.

I'll be around on this list to argue against the misinformation campaigns, it 
is clear that if we were to go away this type of misinformation
would run rampant. I really expected better.

- Moody

On 5/17/24 09:14, Jacob Moody wrote:
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f/
> 
> This linked-in article is frankly disgusting, I suggest you take this 
> incorrect garbage down.
> 
> 
> On 5/17/24 07:43, Samuel Reader via 9fans wrote:
>> It is only a first draft, and it is not a finished product. I'll correct the 
>> mistakes found. 
>>
>> Thank you for the kind feedback.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>>
>> On Friday, May 17th, 2024 at 9:31 PM, qwx via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri May 17 13:33:21 +0200 2024, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
>>>
 an other interesting reading :
 https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm appalled and frankly furious about this article. It's blatant
>>> slander which can affect me in my professional career. I'm a phD
>>> candidate and my work is based on Plan 9 and developed on 9front; I
>>> was going to present it at iwp9 but could not once the venue was
>>> changed as it rendered it incompatible with my time table.
>>>
>>> The article lacks references to many of its claims, and the remaining
>>> ones directly contradict its points. The Register article is even
>>> linked incorrectly. A superficial reader would not bother to try to
>>> follow the links or find the article. For me this is clearly
>>> malicious attention-seeking.
>>>
>>> Regarding the pdf posted earlier[1], almost all of it is factually
>>> incorrect. As an example, there are no drivers for modern nvidia or
>>> amd chips or bluetooth. Many of the "system calls" listed in the pdf
>>> are not system calls (proccreate) or simply don't exit (vlongtime),
>>> and so on. In addition, it is trivial to recreate the same content
>>> with a query like the following: `Generate a detailed book-style
>>> document called "Revitalizing Plan 9: integrating modern enhacements
>>> into 9legacy" detailing all improvements introduced in 9front compared
>>> to 9legacy'. See for yourself in an excerpt below my email.
>>>
>>> I don't understand what the goal here is. All this post and pdf
>>> accomplish is spreading misinformation, promoting cancel culture,
>>> fostering community division and discouraging collaboration with
>>> 9front and even 9legacy, directly contradicting both Vic's claims and
>>> that of those who have sided with him in the thread. At this point,
>>> use of chatgpt in this thread is blatant and harmful. Please stop.
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> qwx
>>>
>>> [1] 
>>> https://link.storjshare.io/s/jx6tw46kfxskld45ussjek46ccpq/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf
>>> ---
>>>
>>> Revitalizing Plan 9: Integrating Modern Enhancements into 9legacy
>>> Introduction
>>> Plan 9 from Bell Labs has long been recognized for its innovative approach 
>>> to distributed computing. However, as hardware and software technologies 
>>> advanced, the need for a more modernized version of Plan 9 became apparent. 
>>> This need led to the development of 9front, a fork of Plan 9 that 
>>> incorporates numerous enhancements and updates, surpassing 9legacy in 
>>> several key areas. This document details these improvements, offering a 
>>> comprehensive comparison of the advancements introduced in 9front over 
>>> 9legacy.
>>>
>>> Chapter 1: Graphics and Video Drivers
>>> Improved Graphics Hardware Support
>>> One of the most significant

Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread Michael Kerpan

Could people please stop accusing people of being fake just because they
write verbosly? That kind of behavior is part and parcel of the incredibly
rude and mean-spirited behavior mentioned in that LinkedIn thing.

Mike

On Fri, May 17, 2024, 10:21 AM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:

> or rename that linkedin garbage to "using AI to disincentivize open
> discussion communities"
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 4:16 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:
> >
> >
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f/
> >
> > This linked-in article is frankly disgusting, I suggest you take this
> incorrect garbage down.
> >
> >
> > On 5/17/24 07:43, Samuel Reader via 9fans wrote:
> > > It is only a first draft, and it is not a finished product. I'll
> correct the mistakes found.
> > >
> > > Thank you for the kind feedback.
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
> > >
> > > On Friday, May 17th, 2024 at 9:31 PM, qwx via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
> wrote:
> > >> On Fri May 17 13:33:21 +0200 2024, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> an other interesting reading :
> > >>>
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card
> > >>
> > >>
> > >> I'm appalled and frankly furious about this article. It's blatant
> > >> slander which can affect me in my professional career. I'm a phD
> > >> candidate and my work is based on Plan 9 and developed on 9front; I
> > >> was going to present it at iwp9 but could not once the venue was
> > >> changed as it rendered it incompatible with my time table.
> > >>
> > >> The article lacks references to many of its claims, and the remaining
> > >> ones directly contradict its points. The Register article is even
> > >> linked incorrectly. A superficial reader would not bother to try to
> > >> follow the links or find the article. For me this is clearly
> > >> malicious attention-seeking.
> > >>
> > >> Regarding the pdf posted earlier[1], almost all of it is factually
> > >> incorrect. As an example, there are no drivers for modern nvidia or
> > >> amd chips or bluetooth. Many of the "system calls" listed in the pdf
> > >> are not system calls (proccreate) or simply don't exit (vlongtime),
> > >> and so on. In addition, it is trivial to recreate the same content
> > >> with a query like the following: `Generate a detailed book-style
> > >> document called "Revitalizing Plan 9: integrating modern enhacements
> > >> into 9legacy" detailing all improvements introduced in 9front compared
> > >> to 9legacy'. See for yourself in an excerpt below my email.
> > >>
> > >> I don't understand what the goal here is. All this post and pdf
> > >> accomplish is spreading misinformation, promoting cancel culture,
> > >> fostering community division and discouraging collaboration with
> > >> 9front and even 9legacy, directly contradicting both Vic's claims and
> > >> that of those who have sided with him in the thread. At this point,
> > >> use of chatgpt in this thread is blatant and harmful. Please stop.
> > >>
> > >> Thanks,
> > >> qwx
> > >>
> > >> [1]
> https://link.storjshare.io/s/jx6tw46kfxskld45ussjek46ccpq/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf
> > >> ---
> > >>
> > >> Revitalizing Plan 9: Integrating Modern Enhancements into 9legacy
> > >> Introduction
> > >> Plan 9 from Bell Labs has long been recognized for its innovative
> approach to distributed computing. However, as hardware and software
> technologies advanced, the need for a more modernized version of Plan 9
> became apparent. This need led to the development of 9front, a fork of Plan
> 9 that incorporates numerous enhancements and updates, surpassing 9legacy
> in several key areas. This document details these improvements, offering a
> comprehensive comparison of the advancements introduced in 9front over
> 9legacy.
> > >>
> > >> Chapter 1: Graphics and Video Drivers
> > >> Improved Graphics Hardware Support
> > >> One of the most significant areas of enhancement in 9front is its
> support for modern graphics hardware. This includes:
> > >>
> > >> Support for Newer GPUs: 9front integrates drivers for the latest GPU
> models, ensuring compatibility with modern graphics cards from
> manufacturers like NVIDIA and AMD.
> > >> Enhanced Frame Buffer Device: The frame buffer device driver has been
> optimized for better performance, providing smoother graphics rendering and
> faster display updates.
> > >> Broad Chipset Compatibility: 9front supports a wider range of
> graphics chipsets, allowing it to run on diverse hardware configurations
> with improved stability and performance.
> > >> Advanced Video Handling
> > >> 9front has made considerable strides in handling video output,
> particularly with high-resolution and multi-monitor setups.
> > >>
> > >> High-Resolution Display Support: Enhanced support for high-resolution
> displays, including 4K monitors, ensures crisp

Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

it's hard to help if we don't see the query. why don't you put the
query into the document, or better just make it some text files in a
git repo so people can help you by sending patches.

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 4:23 PM Samuel Reader via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>
> The 2nd draft is out. I've made some corrections as mentioned by others, and 
> I have added those who have helped to the acknowledgements. This draft is 
> only for those that are interested in the content. If you are not interested 
> please disregard. I confirmed the model was trained on 9front resources, 
> including git history.
>
> https://link.storjshare.io/s/juh72ktckqt2mpdaeebljo7mve2q/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf
>
> I will not continue to post the URL and comment. If you like to help with 
> corrections please do. I'll continue to work on the document until it is as 
> accurate as possible. I can be reached at samuel.rea...@proton.me.
>
> Thank you.
>
> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
>
> On Friday, May 17th, 2024 at 10:50 PM, Clout Tolstoy  
> wrote:
>
> It's very clear at this point Vic Has never read the 9front FAQ or perhaps 
> any other documentation provided by 9front.
>
> Some of the things they ask from the community seem I'll informed because of 
> that and other reasons (like asking for GPU drivers from the community for 
> Nvidia or AMD is out of context of what an open source community can provide)
>
> Another won't fix issue is that it seems that they're unsure if they can port 
> some 9front code for 9legacy because it might not survive a closed source 
> audit for resale.
>
> It doesn't seem they want to bring value to the project and just take control.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2024, 6:33 AM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> 
>> Great that you're building AI prompts instead of operating systems.
>> More trollfactories for "cyber" "warfare" will mean that all our
>> trolls will be out of a job soon. Vic, what you post on linkedin
>> sounds mainly like a big "fuck you" towards 9front, not a fair answer
>> given the technical contributions brought here by others.
>> 
>> Again, please send patches, not propaganda.
>
>
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread Samuel Reader via 9fans

The 2nd draft is out. I've made some corrections as mentioned by others, and I 
have added those who have helped to the acknowledgements. This draft is only 
for those that are interested in the content. If you are not interested please 
disregard. I confirmed the model was trained on 9front resources, including git 
history.

https://link.storjshare.io/s/juh72ktckqt2mpdaeebljo7mve2q/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf

I will not continue to post the URL and comment. If you like to help with 
corrections please do. I'll continue to work on the document until it is as 
accurate as possible. I can be reached at samuel.rea...@proton.me.

Thank you.

Sent with [Proton Mail](https://proton.me/) secure email.

On Friday, May 17th, 2024 at 10:50 PM, Clout Tolstoy  
wrote:

> It's very clear at this point Vic Has never read the 9front FAQ or perhaps 
> any other documentation provided by 9front.
>
> Some of the things they ask from the community seem I'll informed because of 
> that and other reasons (like asking for GPU drivers from the community for 
> Nvidia or AMD is out of context of what an open source community can provide)
>
> Another won't fix issue is that it seems that they're unsure if they can port 
> some 9front code for 9legacy because it might not survive a closed source 
> audit for resale.
>
> It doesn't seem they want to bring value to the project and just take control.
>
> Am I missing something?
>
> On Fri, May 17, 2024, 6:33 AM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Great that you're building AI prompts instead of operating systems.
>> More trollfactories for "cyber" "warfare" will mean that all our
>> trolls will be out of a job soon. Vic, what you post on linkedin
>> sounds mainly like a big "fuck you" towards 9front, not a fair answer
>> given the technical contributions brought here by others.
>> 
>> Again, please send patches, not propaganda.
>
> [9fans](https://9fans.topicbox.com/latest) / 9fans / see 
> [discussions](https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans) + 
> [participants](https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/members) + [delivery 
> options](https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription) 
> [Permalink](https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te051f230f2656bbb-Me91e0ebfcfac416764fad981)
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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

or rename that linkedin garbage to "using AI to disincentivize open
discussion communities"

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 4:16 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:
>
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f/
>
> This linked-in article is frankly disgusting, I suggest you take this 
> incorrect garbage down.
>
>
> On 5/17/24 07:43, Samuel Reader via 9fans wrote:
> > It is only a first draft, and it is not a finished product. I'll correct 
> > the mistakes found.
> >
> > Thank you for the kind feedback.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
> >
> > On Friday, May 17th, 2024 at 9:31 PM, qwx via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> >
> >> On Fri May 17 13:33:21 +0200 2024, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
> >>
> >>> an other interesting reading :
> >>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card
> >>
> >>
> >> I'm appalled and frankly furious about this article. It's blatant
> >> slander which can affect me in my professional career. I'm a phD
> >> candidate and my work is based on Plan 9 and developed on 9front; I
> >> was going to present it at iwp9 but could not once the venue was
> >> changed as it rendered it incompatible with my time table.
> >>
> >> The article lacks references to many of its claims, and the remaining
> >> ones directly contradict its points. The Register article is even
> >> linked incorrectly. A superficial reader would not bother to try to
> >> follow the links or find the article. For me this is clearly
> >> malicious attention-seeking.
> >>
> >> Regarding the pdf posted earlier[1], almost all of it is factually
> >> incorrect. As an example, there are no drivers for modern nvidia or
> >> amd chips or bluetooth. Many of the "system calls" listed in the pdf
> >> are not system calls (proccreate) or simply don't exit (vlongtime),
> >> and so on. In addition, it is trivial to recreate the same content
> >> with a query like the following: `Generate a detailed book-style
> >> document called "Revitalizing Plan 9: integrating modern enhacements
> >> into 9legacy" detailing all improvements introduced in 9front compared
> >> to 9legacy'. See for yourself in an excerpt below my email.
> >>
> >> I don't understand what the goal here is. All this post and pdf
> >> accomplish is spreading misinformation, promoting cancel culture,
> >> fostering community division and discouraging collaboration with
> >> 9front and even 9legacy, directly contradicting both Vic's claims and
> >> that of those who have sided with him in the thread. At this point,
> >> use of chatgpt in this thread is blatant and harmful. Please stop.
> >>
> >> Thanks,
> >> qwx
> >>
> >> [1] 
> >> https://link.storjshare.io/s/jx6tw46kfxskld45ussjek46ccpq/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf
> >> ---
> >>
> >> Revitalizing Plan 9: Integrating Modern Enhancements into 9legacy
> >> Introduction
> >> Plan 9 from Bell Labs has long been recognized for its innovative approach 
> >> to distributed computing. However, as hardware and software technologies 
> >> advanced, the need for a more modernized version of Plan 9 became 
> >> apparent. This need led to the development of 9front, a fork of Plan 9 
> >> that incorporates numerous enhancements and updates, surpassing 9legacy in 
> >> several key areas. This document details these improvements, offering a 
> >> comprehensive comparison of the advancements introduced in 9front over 
> >> 9legacy.
> >>
> >> Chapter 1: Graphics and Video Drivers
> >> Improved Graphics Hardware Support
> >> One of the most significant areas of enhancement in 9front is its support 
> >> for modern graphics hardware. This includes:
> >>
> >> Support for Newer GPUs: 9front integrates drivers for the latest GPU 
> >> models, ensuring compatibility with modern graphics cards from 
> >> manufacturers like NVIDIA and AMD.
> >> Enhanced Frame Buffer Device: The frame buffer device driver has been 
> >> optimized for better performance, providing smoother graphics rendering 
> >> and faster display updates.
> >> Broad Chipset Compatibility: 9front supports a wider range of graphics 
> >> chipsets, allowing it to run on diverse hardware configurations with 
> >> improved stability and performance.
> >> Advanced Video Handling
> >> 9front has made considerable strides in handling video output, 
> >> particularly with high-resolution and multi-monitor setups.
> >>
> >> High-Resolution Display Support: Enhanced support for high-resolution 
> >> displays, including 4K monitors, ensures crisp and clear visuals.
> >> Multi-Monitor Configurations: Improved multi-monitor support allows users 
> >> to extend their desktop across multiple screens seamlessly, enhancing 
> >> productivity and usability.
> >>
> >> Chapter 2: Networking
> >> [...]

--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink:

Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread Jacob Moody

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f/

This linked-in article is frankly disgusting, I suggest you take this incorrect 
garbage down.


On 5/17/24 07:43, Samuel Reader via 9fans wrote:
> It is only a first draft, and it is not a finished product. I'll correct the 
> mistakes found. 
> 
> Thank you for the kind feedback.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Sent with Proton Mail secure email.
> 
> On Friday, May 17th, 2024 at 9:31 PM, qwx via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> 
>> On Fri May 17 13:33:21 +0200 2024, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
>>
>>> an other interesting reading :
>>> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card
>>
>>
>> I'm appalled and frankly furious about this article. It's blatant
>> slander which can affect me in my professional career. I'm a phD
>> candidate and my work is based on Plan 9 and developed on 9front; I
>> was going to present it at iwp9 but could not once the venue was
>> changed as it rendered it incompatible with my time table.
>>
>> The article lacks references to many of its claims, and the remaining
>> ones directly contradict its points. The Register article is even
>> linked incorrectly. A superficial reader would not bother to try to
>> follow the links or find the article. For me this is clearly
>> malicious attention-seeking.
>>
>> Regarding the pdf posted earlier[1], almost all of it is factually
>> incorrect. As an example, there are no drivers for modern nvidia or
>> amd chips or bluetooth. Many of the "system calls" listed in the pdf
>> are not system calls (proccreate) or simply don't exit (vlongtime),
>> and so on. In addition, it is trivial to recreate the same content
>> with a query like the following: `Generate a detailed book-style
>> document called "Revitalizing Plan 9: integrating modern enhacements
>> into 9legacy" detailing all improvements introduced in 9front compared
>> to 9legacy'. See for yourself in an excerpt below my email.
>>
>> I don't understand what the goal here is. All this post and pdf
>> accomplish is spreading misinformation, promoting cancel culture,
>> fostering community division and discouraging collaboration with
>> 9front and even 9legacy, directly contradicting both Vic's claims and
>> that of those who have sided with him in the thread. At this point,
>> use of chatgpt in this thread is blatant and harmful. Please stop.
>>
>> Thanks,
>> qwx
>>
>> [1] 
>> https://link.storjshare.io/s/jx6tw46kfxskld45ussjek46ccpq/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf
>> ---
>>
>> Revitalizing Plan 9: Integrating Modern Enhancements into 9legacy
>> Introduction
>> Plan 9 from Bell Labs has long been recognized for its innovative approach 
>> to distributed computing. However, as hardware and software technologies 
>> advanced, the need for a more modernized version of Plan 9 became apparent. 
>> This need led to the development of 9front, a fork of Plan 9 that 
>> incorporates numerous enhancements and updates, surpassing 9legacy in 
>> several key areas. This document details these improvements, offering a 
>> comprehensive comparison of the advancements introduced in 9front over 
>> 9legacy.
>>
>> Chapter 1: Graphics and Video Drivers
>> Improved Graphics Hardware Support
>> One of the most significant areas of enhancement in 9front is its support 
>> for modern graphics hardware. This includes:
>>
>> Support for Newer GPUs: 9front integrates drivers for the latest GPU models, 
>> ensuring compatibility with modern graphics cards from manufacturers like 
>> NVIDIA and AMD.
>> Enhanced Frame Buffer Device: The frame buffer device driver has been 
>> optimized for better performance, providing smoother graphics rendering and 
>> faster display updates.
>> Broad Chipset Compatibility: 9front supports a wider range of graphics 
>> chipsets, allowing it to run on diverse hardware configurations with 
>> improved stability and performance.
>> Advanced Video Handling
>> 9front has made considerable strides in handling video output, particularly 
>> with high-resolution and multi-monitor setups.
>>
>> High-Resolution Display Support: Enhanced support for high-resolution 
>> displays, including 4K monitors, ensures crisp and clear visuals.
>> Multi-Monitor Configurations: Improved multi-monitor support allows users to 
>> extend their desktop across multiple screens seamlessly, enhancing 
>> productivity and usability.
>>
>> Chapter 2: Networking
>> [...]

--
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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread Clout Tolstoy

It's very clear at this point Vic Has never read the 9front FAQ or perhaps
any other documentation provided by 9front.

Some of the things they ask from the community seem I'll informed because
of that and other reasons (like asking for GPU drivers from the community
for Nvidia or AMD is out of context of what an open source community can
provide)

Another won't fix issue is that it seems that they're unsure if they can
port some 9front code for 9legacy because it might not survive a closed
source audit for resale.

It doesn't seem they want to bring value to the project and just take
control.

Am I missing something?

On Fri, May 17, 2024, 6:33 AM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Great that you're building AI prompts instead of operating systems.
> More trollfactories for "cyber" "warfare" will mean that all our
> trolls will be out of a job soon. Vic, what you post on linkedin
> sounds mainly like a big "fuck you" towards 9front, not a fair answer
> given the technical contributions brought here by others.
> 
> Again, please send patches, not propaganda.

--
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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

still you have not disclaimed anywhere that this is machine generated.
i expect a warning, bec. otherwise this low quality garbage is going
to be interpreted by future humans and AI alike as possibly factual,
which it clearly is not.
but i give you bonuspoint for making it in quotation marks.

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 2:26 PM samuel.reader via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>
> I've included 9front git history. Here is the results.
>
> "I reviewed the 9front Git repository to confirm details about the 
> differences between 9front and 9legacy. Here are some key points:
>
> Syscall Changes: As mentioned, 9front did not add new syscalls beyond the 
> 'nsec' syscall, which 9legacy had already included. This syscall was needed 
> to run Go binaries, although it was deprecated upon import.
>
> Kernel and Driver Enhancements: 9front has made numerous improvements to the 
> kernel and drivers. For example, they have added support for new hardware, 
> such as the i219-LM Ethernet device, and improved existing drivers, like the 
> virtio drivers for disk and Ethernet.
>
> Library Updates: There have been updates to various libraries, such as lib9p, 
> libsec, and libtags. These updates include bug fixes, performance 
> enhancements, and new features like support for additional audio formats in 
> libtags.
>
> Program Improvements: Many user programs have seen enhancements and bug 
> fixes. Notable examples include the acme editor, which received improvements 
> from Plan9port, and the git suite, which has been updated to handle modern 
> workflows more effectively. I reviewed the 9front Git repository to confirm 
> details about the differences between 9front and 9legacy. Here are some key 
> points:
>
> Syscall Changes: As mentioned, 9front did not add new syscalls beyond the 
> 'nsec' syscall, which 9legacy had already included. This syscall was needed 
> to run Go binaries, although it was deprecated upon import.
>
> Kernel and Driver Enhancements: 9front has made numerous improvements to the 
> kernel and drivers. For example, they have added support for new hardware, 
> such as the i219-LM Ethernet device, and improved existing drivers, like the 
> virtio drivers for disk and Ethernet.
>
> Library Updates: There have been updates to various libraries, such as lib9p, 
> libsec, and libtags. These updates include bug fixes, performance 
> enhancements, and new features like support for additional audio formats in 
> libtags
>
> Program Improvements: Many user programs have seen enhancements and bug 
> fixes. Notable examples include the acme editor, which received improvements 
> from Plan9port, and the git suite, which has been updated to handle modern 
> workflows more effectively."
>
>
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread Steve Simon



i got very suspicious at the mention of a procinfo syscall - unlikely in plan9, 
and i couldn't imagine a use for such a thing given we have /proc already.

-Steve



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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread ori

I'm not sure it is interesting.

Quoth pl...@room3420.net:
> an other interesting reading :
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread Samuel Reader via 9fans

It is only a first draft, and it is not a finished product. I'll correct the 
mistakes found. 

Thank you for the kind feedback.




Sent with Proton Mail secure email.

On Friday, May 17th, 2024 at 9:31 PM, qwx via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:

> On Fri May 17 13:33:21 +0200 2024, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
> 
> > an other interesting reading :
> > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card
> 
> 
> I'm appalled and frankly furious about this article. It's blatant
> slander which can affect me in my professional career. I'm a phD
> candidate and my work is based on Plan 9 and developed on 9front; I
> was going to present it at iwp9 but could not once the venue was
> changed as it rendered it incompatible with my time table.
> 
> The article lacks references to many of its claims, and the remaining
> ones directly contradict its points. The Register article is even
> linked incorrectly. A superficial reader would not bother to try to
> follow the links or find the article. For me this is clearly
> malicious attention-seeking.
> 
> Regarding the pdf posted earlier[1], almost all of it is factually
> incorrect. As an example, there are no drivers for modern nvidia or
> amd chips or bluetooth. Many of the "system calls" listed in the pdf
> are not system calls (proccreate) or simply don't exit (vlongtime),
> and so on. In addition, it is trivial to recreate the same content
> with a query like the following: `Generate a detailed book-style
> document called "Revitalizing Plan 9: integrating modern enhacements
> into 9legacy" detailing all improvements introduced in 9front compared
> to 9legacy'. See for yourself in an excerpt below my email.
> 
> I don't understand what the goal here is. All this post and pdf
> accomplish is spreading misinformation, promoting cancel culture,
> fostering community division and discouraging collaboration with
> 9front and even 9legacy, directly contradicting both Vic's claims and
> that of those who have sided with him in the thread. At this point,
> use of chatgpt in this thread is blatant and harmful. Please stop.
> 
> Thanks,
> qwx
> 
> [1] 
> https://link.storjshare.io/s/jx6tw46kfxskld45ussjek46ccpq/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf
> ---
> 
> Revitalizing Plan 9: Integrating Modern Enhancements into 9legacy
> Introduction
> Plan 9 from Bell Labs has long been recognized for its innovative approach to 
> distributed computing. However, as hardware and software technologies 
> advanced, the need for a more modernized version of Plan 9 became apparent. 
> This need led to the development of 9front, a fork of Plan 9 that 
> incorporates numerous enhancements and updates, surpassing 9legacy in several 
> key areas. This document details these improvements, offering a comprehensive 
> comparison of the advancements introduced in 9front over 9legacy.
> 
> Chapter 1: Graphics and Video Drivers
> Improved Graphics Hardware Support
> One of the most significant areas of enhancement in 9front is its support for 
> modern graphics hardware. This includes:
> 
> Support for Newer GPUs: 9front integrates drivers for the latest GPU models, 
> ensuring compatibility with modern graphics cards from manufacturers like 
> NVIDIA and AMD.
> Enhanced Frame Buffer Device: The frame buffer device driver has been 
> optimized for better performance, providing smoother graphics rendering and 
> faster display updates.
> Broad Chipset Compatibility: 9front supports a wider range of graphics 
> chipsets, allowing it to run on diverse hardware configurations with improved 
> stability and performance.
> Advanced Video Handling
> 9front has made considerable strides in handling video output, particularly 
> with high-resolution and multi-monitor setups.
> 
> High-Resolution Display Support: Enhanced support for high-resolution 
> displays, including 4K monitors, ensures crisp and clear visuals.
> Multi-Monitor Configurations: Improved multi-monitor support allows users to 
> extend their desktop across multiple screens seamlessly, enhancing 
> productivity and usability.
> 
> Chapter 2: Networking
> [...]

--
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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread qwx via 9fans

On Fri May 17 13:33:21 +0200 2024, pl...@room3420.net wrote:
> an other interesting reading :
> https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card

I'm appalled and frankly furious about this article. It's blatant
slander which can affect me in my professional career. I'm a phD
candidate and my work is based on Plan 9 and developed on 9front; I
was going to present it at iwp9 but could not once the venue was
changed as it rendered it incompatible with my time table.

The article lacks references to many of its claims, and the remaining
ones directly contradict its points. The Register article is even
linked incorrectly. A superficial reader would not bother to try to
follow the links or find the article. For me this is clearly
malicious attention-seeking.

Regarding the pdf posted earlier[1], almost all of it is factually
incorrect. As an example, there are no drivers for modern nvidia or
amd chips or bluetooth. Many of the "system calls" listed in the pdf
are not system calls (proccreate) or simply don't exit (vlongtime),
and so on. In addition, it is trivial to recreate the same content
with a query like the following: `Generate a detailed book-style
document called "Revitalizing Plan 9: integrating modern enhacements
into 9legacy" detailing all improvements introduced in 9front compared
to 9legacy'. See for yourself in an excerpt below my email.

I don't understand what the goal here is. All this post and pdf
accomplish is spreading misinformation, promoting cancel culture,
fostering community division and discouraging collaboration with
9front and even 9legacy, directly contradicting both Vic's claims and
that of those who have sided with him in the thread. At this point,
use of chatgpt in this thread is blatant and harmful. Please stop.

Thanks,
qwx

[1]
https://link.storjshare.io/s/jx6tw46kfxskld45ussjek46ccpq/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf
---

Revitalizing Plan 9: Integrating Modern Enhancements into 9legacy
Introduction
Plan 9 from Bell Labs has long been recognized for its innovative approach to
distributed computing. However, as hardware and software technologies advanced,
the need for a more modernized version of Plan 9 became apparent. This need led
to the development of 9front, a fork of Plan 9 that incorporates numerous
enhancements and updates, surpassing 9legacy in several key areas. This
document details these improvements, offering a comprehensive comparison of the
advancements introduced in 9front over 9legacy.

Chapter 1: Graphics and Video Drivers
Improved Graphics Hardware Support
One of the most significant areas of enhancement in 9front is its support for
modern graphics hardware. This includes:

Support for Newer GPUs: 9front integrates drivers for the latest GPU models,
ensuring compatibility with modern graphics cards from manufacturers like
NVIDIA and AMD.
Enhanced Frame Buffer Device: The frame buffer device driver has been optimized
for better performance, providing smoother graphics rendering and faster
display updates.
Broad Chipset Compatibility: 9front supports a wider range of graphics
chipsets, allowing it to run on diverse hardware configurations with improved
stability and performance.
Advanced Video Handling
9front has made considerable strides in handling video output, particularly
with high-resolution and multi-monitor setups.

High-Resolution Display Support: Enhanced support for high-resolution displays,
including 4K monitors, ensures crisp and clear visuals.
Multi-Monitor Configurations: Improved multi-monitor support allows users to
extend their desktop across multiple screens seamlessly, enhancing productivity
and usability.

Chapter 2: Networking
[...]

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread samuel.reader via 9fans

I've included 9front git history. Here is the results. 

"I reviewed the 9front Git repository to confirm details about the differences 
between 9front and 9legacy. Here are some key points:
 1. *Syscall Changes*: As mentioned, 9front did not add new syscalls beyond the 
'nsec' syscall, which 9legacy had already included. This syscall was needed to 
run Go binaries, although it was deprecated upon import.


 2. *Kernel and Driver Enhancements*: 9front has made numerous improvements to 
the kernel and drivers. For example, they have added support for new hardware, 
such as the i219-LM Ethernet device, and improved existing drivers, like the 
virtio drivers for disk and Ethernet. 


 3. *Library Updates*: There have been updates to various libraries, such as 
lib9p, libsec, and libtags. These updates include bug fixes, performance 
enhancements, and new features like support for additional audio formats in 
libtags.


 4. *Program Improvements*: Many user programs have seen enhancements and bug 
fixes. Notable examples include the acme editor, which received improvements 
from Plan9port, and the git suite, which has been updated to handle modern 
workflows more effectively. I reviewed the 9front Git repository to confirm 
details about the differences between 9front and 9legacy. Here are some key 
points:


 5. *Syscall Changes*: As mentioned, 9front did not add new syscalls beyond the 
'nsec' syscall, which 9legacy had already included. This syscall was needed to 
run Go binaries, although it was deprecated upon import.


 6. *Kernel and Driver Enhancements*: 9front has made numerous improvements to 
the kernel and drivers. For example, they have added support for new hardware, 
such as the i219-LM Ethernet device, and improved existing drivers, like the 
virtio drivers for disk and Ethernet.


 7. *Library Updates*: There have been updates to various libraries, such as 
lib9p, libsec, and libtags. These updates include bug fixes, performance 
enhancements, and new features like support for additional audio formats in 
libtags


 8. *Program Improvements*: Many user programs have seen enhancements and bug 
fixes. Notable examples include the acme editor, which received improvements 
from Plan9port, and the git suite, which has been updated to handle modern 
workflows more effectively."



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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

Great that you're building AI prompts instead of operating systems.
More trollfactories for "cyber" "warfare" will mean that all our
trolls will be out of a job soon. Vic, what you post on linkedin
sounds mainly like a big "fuck you" towards 9front, not a fair answer
given the technical contributions brought here by others.

Again, please send patches, not propaganda.

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread Matt Wilbur

On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 3:20 PM adventures in9 
wrote:

> Suggesting ways to try out a Plan9 system is not a hypothetical for
> me.  I put myself out there doing videos demonstrating Plan9 systems,
> and so I get questions all the time.


FWIW I have found your channel *extremely* helpful in learning how to play
with 9front and am very grateful for it.

Matt





>
> Everyone has access to amd64 machines.  The used market is flooded
> with retired quad core amd64 Dell and Lenovo office desktops.  Most
> experienced Linux users who want to try a Plan9 system can also
> navigate qemu.  9Front covers all these use cases.  The typical
> problems that arise are lack of drivers, which 9Legacy is even worse
> with.
>
> Besides the hardware issue, the biggest benefit from 9Front is that it
> has an active community all working on the same fork.  The most eye
> opening thing about this whole long exchange is that the old Plan9
> people are largely working alone on private forks.
>
> On Mon, May 13, 2024 at 10:02 AM Ori Bernstein  wrote:
> >
> > On Mon, 13 May 2024 11:56:20 -0400
> > "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
> >
> > > I'm wondering why you don't adjust it so that 9front can also be run
> there.
> >
> > Because 9vx is a hacky dead end; it fundamentally
> > only runs (and can only run) on 32-bit x86. It
> > works because of a quirk of 32-bit x86 addressing.
> >
> > Linux distros are wanting to drop support for
> > running 32 bit binaries (Ubuntu tried in 2019,
> > others have tried on and off).
> >
> > Macs no longer ship x86 processors, and even the
> > ones that have x86 cpus dropped support for 32-bit
> > binaries 5 years ago.
> >
> > I have no idea what windows is up to.
> >
> > Basically, qemu/drawterm works better in more or
> > less every way.

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread plan6

an other interesting reading :
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card
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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

now an AI generated book? and you're blaming 9front of having invented
new syscalls? what? oh come on!

On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 12:07 PM samuel.reader via 9fans
<9fans@9fans.net> wrote:
>
> Someone asked about the differences between 9front and 9legacy. This first 
> draft provides a brief overview.
> https://link.storjshare.io/s/jx6tw46kfxskld45ussjek46ccpq/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread ori

Quoth samuel.reader via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
> Someone asked about the differences between 9front and 9legacy. This first 
> draft provides a brief overview.
> https://link.storjshare.io/s/jx6tw46kfxskld45ussjek46ccpq/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf

Unfortunately, it doesn't provide a correct overview.

For example, 9front added no syscalls beyond picking
up the 'nsec' system call that 9legacy had added.
We deprecated it on import, but it was needed to run
go binaries.

The rest of this seems similarly accurate.


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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)

2024-05-17 Thread samuel.reader via 9fans

Someone asked about the differences between 9front and 9legacy. This first 
draft provides a brief overview.
https://link.storjshare.io/s/jx6tw46kfxskld45ussjek46ccpq/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf
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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 03:44:37PM -0400, Wes Kussmaul wrote:
> 
> 
> On 5/14/24 15:05, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:
> > 
> > I don't know if black holes do exist but I'm convinced that there are
> > already, out there, software implementations of black holes: things
> > that will collapse under their own weight.
> 
> The biggest black hole of them all: https://silibandia.com
> 

https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/article/2024/may/09/unisuper-google-cloud-issue-account-access

"Google Cloud accidentally deletes UniSuper's online account due to
`unprecedented misconfiguration'

Super fund boss and Google Cloud global CEO issue joint statement
apologising for `extremely frustrating and disappointing' outage"

Well, I work on GIS. A points cloud is something that one has to
interpret, looking at it from far, and that disappears once you zoom
for a special information. This is also an inorganized collection of
data (this is only the one who looks at it from far that organizes the
picture). For it to be useful, it has to be replaced by organized
information that you extract from it. This is not then a cloud anymore...

I guess this also explains why I had from the beginning absolute
distrust to the whole hyped thing---whatever the provider.
Distributed, load balancing, tightly coupled multiprocessing, fault
tolerant internal system: yes. My system "somewhere", administrated by
"someone", shared with "everyone": no.
-- 
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 http://www.kergis.com/
http://kertex.kergis.com/
 http://nunc-et-hic.fr/
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Re: [9fans] RISC-V SoC available in Europe?

On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 09:38:44AM +, Fabian Wermelinger wrote:
> On Thu, 16 May 2024 08:27:25 +0200, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:
> > Do anybody know of some E.U. online merchant proposing such boards?
> 
> https://pine64.org/devices/
> 
> They have an EU store (think Poland based).  I bought from them in the past, 
> can
> recommend.

OK! so here is the SiFive U74 (STAR64). I thought that the pine64 were
all ARM based. I was wrong.

I will let others provide further links before making the choice (and
I will watch/listen Geoff Collyer "Plan 9 on 64-bit RISC-V" too).
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Re: [9fans] RISC-V SoC available in Europe?

2024-05-16 Thread Fabian Wermelinger


On Thu, 16 May 2024 08:27:25 +0200, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:

Do anybody know of some E.U. online merchant proposing such boards?


https://pine64.org/devices/

They have an EU store (think Poland based).  I bought from them in the past, can
recommend.

--
fabs

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Re: [9fans] RISC-V SoC available in Europe?

On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 11:26:32AM +0200, Julien Blanchard via 9fans wrote:
> This presentation by Geoff Collyer "Plan 9 on 64-bit RISC-V" describes the
> work that has been done and mentions some hardware too.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOg6UzSss2A

Thanks for the link! I will watch this after but just noticing that
from the still first slide there is already the two mentionned: BeagleV
and Microship Polarfire Icicle, plus a Sifive u740.
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Re: [9fans] RISC-V SoC available in Europe?

2024-05-16 Thread Julien Blanchard via 9fans

This presentation by Geoff Collyer "Plan 9 on 64-bit RISC-V" describes 
the work that has been done and mentions some hardware too.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EOg6UzSss2A

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Re: [9fans] RISC-V SoC available in Europe?

On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 10:13:45AM +0100, Andrew Back wrote:
> On 16/05/2024 09:54, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:
> 
> > I add these that I finally found (not easily) in France. From
> > Microchip, the expensive:
> > 
> > https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/494-MPFSICICLE-KITES
> > 
> > and this:
> > 
> > https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Microchip-Technology/MPFS-DISCO-KIT?qs=mELouGlnn3f1eYzoy8b3wQ%3D%3D
> > 
> > If someone has a technical advice (in the hardware area, I'm a
> > beginner) about whether the expensive one is justified because it will
> > allow far more information for debugging, testing etc. I will gladly
> > listen.
> 
> The Microchip dev kit has an on-board programmer, whereas with BeagleV Fire
> you need to buy a USB programmer, but the cheaper of the two options is
> around 100 Euro. This is used to load the bitstream which configures the
> FPGA and I wasn't sure about RISC-V CPU debug, but a quick search turned up
> this page on the Zephyr website which suggests that the same FlashPro5/6
> hardware can be used with GDB.
> 
> https://docs.zephyrproject.org/latest/boards/beagle/beaglev_fire/doc/index.html#debugging
> 
> Other than that it looks like the official dev kit maybe has more I/O and
> also a full size PCIe slot, rather than M.2. You'd need to compare the
> datasheets, but generally speaking the official dev kit will be aimed more
> at companies who want to do custom hardware designs and so it may have
> things like additional test points, and will be the officially supported
> platform if you're working with Microchip. Whereas the BeagleV Fire board is
> targeted more at enthusiasts and being more accessible.

Thanks! I will start with a BeagleV Fire...
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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-16 Thread hiro

I  believe you Steve, but I also believe noam. He's apparently the
biggest lover of fossil around out here.

On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 12:39 AM Steve Simon  wrote:
>
>
> i read the paper.
>
> i can believe there are still bugs, truth be told there are bugs in most 
> software. all i can say is in my experience i have not hit any since the 
> ephemeral snapshot fix. Honestly fosdil has been solid for me; i hope i have 
> not just jinx’ed it :-)
>
> -Steve
>
>
> > On 15 May 2024, at 11:18 pm, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > noam said there's also some well-known issues with locks that still
> > keeps happening in fossil. did you watch the outcome of last iwp9? he
> > has the best description of the state of venti and fossil to date.
> >
> >> On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 12:08 AM Steve Simon  wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >> Just a little first hand experience - I have run a fossil and venti server 
> >> for twenty years now.
> >>
> >> Fossil suffered three problems in my opinion:
> >>
> >> Firstly it was not well publicised that fossil was never designed to cope 
> >> with overflow; the sad truth is it fails catastrophically, as whitenessed 
> >> by Brucee. it should cope better really, but when used as a write buffer 
> >> for venti this is unlikely, it has never happened to me.
> >>
> >> Secondly it had a race condition in the ephemeral snapshot code. the only 
> >> way to make fossil reliable was to turn these off. This bug was fixed by 
> >> Charles (i think, though perhaps it was Richard) about 10 years ago and 
> >> with the fix my server has been taking ephemeral snapshots ever since.
> >>
> >> Thirdly venti and fossil are slow.
> >>
> >> I think its sad (an emotion, sorry) that fossil sources where deleted from 
> >> 9front but i do understand the principal of not distributing things the 
> >> community does not wish to support.
> >>
> >> -Steve
> >>

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Re: [9fans] RISC-V SoC available in Europe?

2024-05-16 Thread Andrew Back


On 16/05/2024 09:54, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:


I add these that I finally found (not easily) in France. From
Microchip, the expensive:

https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/494-MPFSICICLE-KITES

and this:

https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Microchip-Technology/MPFS-DISCO-KIT?qs=mELouGlnn3f1eYzoy8b3wQ%3D%3D

If someone has a technical advice (in the hardware area, I'm a
beginner) about whether the expensive one is justified because it will
allow far more information for debugging, testing etc. I will gladly
listen.


The Microchip dev kit has an on-board programmer, whereas with BeagleV 
Fire you need to buy a USB programmer, but the cheaper of the two 
options is around 100 Euro. This is used to load the bitstream which 
configures the FPGA and I wasn't sure about RISC-V CPU debug, but a 
quick search turned up this page on the Zephyr website which suggests 
that the same FlashPro5/6 hardware can be used with GDB.


https://docs.zephyrproject.org/latest/boards/beagle/beaglev_fire/doc/index.html#debugging

Other than that it looks like the official dev kit maybe has more I/O 
and also a full size PCIe slot, rather than M.2. You'd need to compare 
the datasheets, but generally speaking the official dev kit will be 
aimed more at companies who want to do custom hardware designs and so it 
may have things like additional test points, and will be the officially 
supported platform if you're working with Microchip. Whereas the BeagleV 
Fire board is targeted more at enthusiasts and being more accessible.


Andrew

--
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Re: [9fans] RISC-V SoC available in Europe?

On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 09:31:47AM +0100, Andrew Back wrote:
> On 16/05/2024 07:27, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:
> > I'd like to start playing with the combination RISC-V and Plan9.
> > There are some (including not in stock yet) SoC from Microchip for
> > example, but I seem unable to purchase them from some french
> > seller---and I had enough bad experience about buying in U.S, with
> > VAT handled by FedEx, UPS or whatever adding delirious extra costs,
> > that I'm now reluctant to buy from "abroad".
> > 
> > Do anybody know of some E.U. online merchant proposing such boards?
> 
> RS have:
> 
> - BeagleV Ahead with Alibaba T-Head TH1520 quad-core RISC-V Xuantie C910.
> 
> https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/single-board-computers/2686957
> 
> - BeagleV Fire with Microchip PolarFire MPFS025T FCVG484E.
> 
> https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/single-board-computers/2730243
> 
> The former featuring a more powerful RISC-V CPU, while the latter has the
> added benefit of a SoC with a 23K LE FPGA.

Thanks for the links. These seem interesting.

I have noted too what Shawn Rutledge has given---thank you too.

I add these that I finally found (not easily) in France. From
Microchip, the expensive:

https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/494-MPFSICICLE-KITES

and this:

https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/Microchip-Technology/MPFS-DISCO-KIT?qs=mELouGlnn3f1eYzoy8b3wQ%3D%3D

If someone has a technical advice (in the hardware area, I'm a
beginner) about whether the expensive one is justified because it will
allow far more information for debugging, testing etc. I will gladly
listen.
-- 
Thierry Laronde 
 http://www.kergis.com/
http://kertex.kergis.com/
 http://nunc-et-hic.fr/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

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Re: [9fans] RISC-V SoC available in Europe?

2024-05-16 Thread Andrew Back


On 16/05/2024 07:27, tlaro...@kergis.com wrote:

I'd like to start playing with the combination RISC-V and Plan9.
There are some (including not in stock yet) SoC from Microchip for
example, but I seem unable to purchase them from some french
seller---and I had enough bad experience about buying in U.S, with
VAT handled by FedEx, UPS or whatever adding delirious extra costs,
that I'm now reluctant to buy from "abroad".

Do anybody know of some E.U. online merchant proposing such boards?


RS have:

- BeagleV Ahead with Alibaba T-Head TH1520 quad-core RISC-V Xuantie C910.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/single-board-computers/2686957

- BeagleV Fire with Microchip PolarFire MPFS025T FCVG484E.

https://uk.rs-online.com/web/p/single-board-computers/2730243

The former featuring a more powerful RISC-V CPU, while the latter has 
the added benefit of a SoC with a 23K LE FPGA.


Andrew

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Re: [9fans] RISC-V SoC available in Europe?

2024-05-16 Thread Shawn Rutledge

> On May 15, 2024, at 11:27 PM,   
> wrote:
> 
> I'd like to start playing with the combination RISC-V and Plan9.

I would too.  I have a VisionFive 2 (I highly recommend the metal case from 
here, if you get one):

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004799577384.html

And a Mango Pi D1:

https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005005298027581.html

I just didn’t figure out how to get started with building and testing 9 on 
either of those.

Neither of them has really competitive performance on Linux: no advantage over 
a raspberry pi, except to be able to try out this architecture at all.  For a 
short time, the VisionFive might have been the fastest risc-V chip available, 
but not anymore.

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[9fans] RISC-V SoC available in Europe?

I'd like to start playing with the combination RISC-V and Plan9.
There are some (including not in stock yet) SoC from Microchip for
example, but I seem unable to purchase them from some french
seller---and I had enough bad experience about buying in U.S, with
VAT handled by FedEx, UPS or whatever adding delirious extra costs,
that I'm now reluctant to buy from "abroad".

Do anybody know of some E.U. online merchant proposing such boards?
And even some product that is working already with Plan9 or that would
be interesting to get working with Plan9? The purpose being to learn,
it's not a problem if there will be work to do.
-- 
Thierry Laronde 
 http://www.kergis.com/
http://kertex.kergis.com/
 http://nunc-et-hic.fr/
Key fingerprint = 0FF7 E906 FBAF FE95 FD89  250D 52B1 AE95 6006 F40C

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread Steve Simon



i read the paper.

i can believe there are still bugs, truth be told there are bugs in most 
software. all i can say is in my experience i have not hit any since the 
ephemeral snapshot fix. Honestly fosdil has been solid for me; i hope i have 
not just jinx’ed it :-)

-Steve


> On 15 May 2024, at 11:18 pm, hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> noam said there's also some well-known issues with locks that still
> keeps happening in fossil. did you watch the outcome of last iwp9? he
> has the best description of the state of venti and fossil to date.
> 
>> On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 12:08 AM Steve Simon  wrote:
>> 
>> 
>> Just a little first hand experience - I have run a fossil and venti server 
>> for twenty years now.
>> 
>> Fossil suffered three problems in my opinion:
>> 
>> Firstly it was not well publicised that fossil was never designed to cope 
>> with overflow; the sad truth is it fails catastrophically, as whitenessed by 
>> Brucee. it should cope better really, but when used as a write buffer for 
>> venti this is unlikely, it has never happened to me.
>> 
>> Secondly it had a race condition in the ephemeral snapshot code. the only 
>> way to make fossil reliable was to turn these off. This bug was fixed by 
>> Charles (i think, though perhaps it was Richard) about 10 years ago and with 
>> the fix my server has been taking ephemeral snapshots ever since.
>> 
>> Thirdly venti and fossil are slow.
>> 
>> I think its sad (an emotion, sorry) that fossil sources where deleted from 
>> 9front but i do understand the principal of not distributing things the 
>> community does not wish to support.
>> 
>> -Steve
>> 

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread hiro

noam said there's also some well-known issues with locks that still
keeps happening in fossil. did you watch the outcome of last iwp9? he
has the best description of the state of venti and fossil to date.

On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 12:08 AM Steve Simon  wrote:
> 
> 
> Just a little first hand experience - I have run a fossil and venti server 
> for twenty years now.
> 
> Fossil suffered three problems in my opinion:
> 
> Firstly it was not well publicised that fossil was never designed to cope 
> with overflow; the sad truth is it fails catastrophically, as whitenessed by 
> Brucee. it should cope better really, but when used as a write buffer for 
> venti this is unlikely, it has never happened to me.
> 
> Secondly it had a race condition in the ephemeral snapshot code. the only way 
> to make fossil reliable was to turn these off. This bug was fixed by Charles 
> (i think, though perhaps it was Richard) about 10 years ago and with the fix 
> my server has been taking ephemeral snapshots ever since.
> 
> Thirdly venti and fossil are slow.
> 
> I think its sad (an emotion, sorry) that fossil sources where deleted from 
> 9front but i do understand the principal of not distributing things the 
> community does not wish to support.
> 
> -Steve
> 

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread Steve Simon



Just a little first hand experience - I have run a fossil and venti server for 
twenty years now.

Fossil suffered three problems in my opinion:

Firstly it was not well publicised that fossil was never designed to cope with 
overflow; the sad truth is it fails catastrophically, as whitenessed by Brucee. 
it should cope better really, but when used as a write buffer for venti this is 
unlikely, it has never happened to me.

Secondly it had a race condition in the ephemeral snapshot code. the only way 
to make fossil reliable was to turn these off. This bug was fixed by Charles (i 
think, though perhaps it was Richard) about 10 years ago and with the fix my 
server has been taking ephemeral snapshots ever since.

Thirdly venti and fossil are slow.

I think its sad (an emotion, sorry) that fossil sources where deleted from 
9front but i do understand the principal of not distributing things the 
community does not wish to support.

-Steve


 
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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread hiro

about venti: probably nobody got around to removing it.
send a patch.

more seriously: i have no clue what might be wrong with venti, cause i
haven't used it for decades.
the papers for venti and fossil are nice btw, i have nothing against
the concept, rather i'm all for it, in theory.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 7:33 PM Lucio De Re  wrote:
>
> Factually, Fossil is no big deal. Its design shortcomings have been raised in 
> the past from the Bell Labs side and the documentation (for Venti, I think, 
> but it's not very important) suggests that Fossil was knocked together as a 
> minimal Venti cache so the benefits of Venti could be utilised and the old 
> file system could be abandoned.
>
> I somehow missed that discussion at the time and never went back to find out 
> how it panned out. But it sure feels with hindsight that Fossil became the 
> trigger for the 9front schism and that would explain the sensitivity on 
> either side. It's a shame, because the Venti potential remains unrealised as 
> there isn't the Fossil bridge (where development is continuing, in 9front) to 
> a better, full functionality file system that includes Venti backing storage.
>
> Which brings me to the question I have been meaning to ask: what scope does 
> Venti serve in the absence of Fossil? I appreciate that VAC is a handy form 
> of archiving, but does it justify the complexity of configuring and 
> maintaining a Venti archive? I know that vacfs has some failings I haven't 
> had the opportunity or the inclination to investigate, but exhibit themselves 
> only in P9P - in my experience. So is Venti only a trophy application, or are 
> there serious uses for it among the 9front community?
>
> Lucio.
>
> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 7:04 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:
>>
>> On 5/15/24 11:20, Don Bailey wrote:
>> >
>> > I have zero emotional attachment to Fossil. What I am asking for, not even 
>> > demanding, is a fact-based assessment of the asserted issue. Pointing at 
>> > the code is not an emotional attachment. It's literally the opposite. It's 
>> > asking to demonstrate and document the issues, instead of asserting that 
>> > something is awful because /you/ have had an emotional reaction to it 
>> > failing. How did it fail? Can you reproduce it? What code is bad? Why is 
>> > the code bad? If you can't answer these questions, maybe you
>> > shouldn't have removed it.
>> 
>> The emotional accusation I understand, it really seems like it's just fossil 
>> that evokes this
>> reaction out of people. Just fossil that makes people want us to prove 
>> without any reason of doubt that the
>> code should have been removed. I also just don't understand why people are 
>> so attached to fossil.
>> Is it because people feel like there is a high burden of evidence for 
>> touching the holy code
>> as ordained by bell labs? We didn't want it so it went. If you think this is 
>> actually a
>> mistake and there is a world of possibility to be had thanks to fossil in 
>> Plan 9 I encourage
>> you to maintain fossil yourself and prove to us that we were wrong in 
>> thinking it was dead weight.
>> 
>> I want to specifically compare the discussion that happened on this thread 
>> between p9sk1
>> and fossil. We think that no one should be using p9sk1, and so we spent the 
>> time to explain
>> to others the very real, concrete and specific issues with the code and 
>> implementation.
>> 
>> We are not telling any other user of Plan 9 to not use fossil if they'd 
>> like, we simply don't want to
>> deal with it in 9front. I think the burden of proof you are putting on us to 
>> make this
>> decision would only make sense if we were advocating for other distributions 
>> and current
>> users of fossil to no longer use it. It's fine, we're just not interested in 
>> it, sorry.
>> 
>> As I, and others, have pointed out now a couple of times. Adding fossil back 
>> to 9front
>> is trivial. Perhaps you haven't had the experience of having to sit in irc 
>> and help
>> new users get going with the system who really don't have opinions about 
>> anything and
>> then dealing with the outcomes when things blow up. As you said fossil is 
>> not exactly
>> easy to deal with, it needs a lot of special consideration. So why then are 
>> you complaining
>> that 9front made the decision to remove that option for the uninformed user? 
>> Does it not
>> make more sense to direct users towards a filesystem that is more resilient 
>> and requires
>> less watering?
>> 
>> All of this is entirely moot with gefs right around the corner. I can't 
>> imagine someone
>> willingly want to use fossil with gefs as a (soon to be) alternative.
>> 
>
>
>
> --
> Lucio De Re
> 2 Piet Retief St
> Kestell (Eastern Free State)
> 9860 South Africa
>
> Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
> Cell: +27 83 251 5824
> 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread Lucio De Re

Factually, Fossil is no big deal. Its design shortcomings have been raised
in the past from the Bell Labs side and the documentation (for Venti, I
think, but it's not very important) suggests that Fossil was knocked
together as a minimal Venti cache so the benefits of Venti could be
utilised and the old file system could be abandoned.

I somehow missed that discussion at the time and never went back to find
out how it panned out. But it sure feels with hindsight that Fossil became
the trigger for the 9front schism and that would explain the sensitivity on
either side. It's a shame, because the Venti potential remains
unrealised as there isn't the Fossil bridge (where development is
continuing, in 9front) to a better, full functionality file system that
includes Venti backing storage.

Which brings me to the question I have been meaning to ask: what scope does
Venti serve in the absence of Fossil? I appreciate that VAC is a handy form
of archiving, but does it justify the complexity of configuring and
maintaining a Venti archive? I know that vacfs has some failings I haven't
had the opportunity or the inclination to investigate, but exhibit
themselves only in P9P - in my experience. So is Venti only a trophy
application, or are there serious uses for it among the 9front community?

Lucio.

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 7:04 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:

> On 5/15/24 11:20, Don Bailey wrote:
> >
> > I have zero emotional attachment to Fossil. What I am asking for, not
> even demanding, is a fact-based assessment of the asserted issue. Pointing
> at the code is not an emotional attachment. It's literally the opposite.
> It's asking to demonstrate and document the issues, instead of asserting
> that something is awful because /you/ have had an emotional reaction to it
> failing. How did it fail? Can you reproduce it? What code is bad? Why is
> the code bad? If you can't answer these questions, maybe you
> > shouldn't have removed it.
> 
> The emotional accusation I understand, it really seems like it's just
> fossil that evokes this
> reaction out of people. Just fossil that makes people want us to prove
> without any reason of doubt that the
> code should have been removed. I also just don't understand why people are
> so attached to fossil.
> Is it because people feel like there is a high burden of evidence for
> touching the holy code
> as ordained by bell labs? We didn't want it so it went. If you think this
> is actually a
> mistake and there is a world of possibility to be had thanks to fossil in
> Plan 9 I encourage
> you to maintain fossil yourself and prove to us that we were wrong in
> thinking it was dead weight.
> 
> I want to specifically compare the discussion that happened on this thread
> between p9sk1
> and fossil. We think that no one should be using p9sk1, and so we spent
> the time to explain
> to others the very real, concrete and specific issues with the code and
> implementation.
> 
> We are not telling any other user of Plan 9 to not use fossil if they'd
> like, we simply don't want to
> deal with it in 9front. I think the burden of proof you are putting on us
> to make this
> decision would only make sense if we were advocating for other
> distributions and current
> users of fossil to no longer use it. It's fine, we're just not interested
> in it, sorry.
> 
> As I, and others, have pointed out now a couple of times. Adding fossil
> back to 9front
> is trivial. Perhaps you haven't had the experience of having to sit in irc
> and help
> new users get going with the system who really don't have opinions about
> anything and
> then dealing with the outcomes when things blow up. As you said fossil is
> not exactly
> easy to deal with, it needs a lot of special consideration. So why then
> are you complaining
> that 9front made the decision to remove that option for the uninformed
> user? Does it not
> make more sense to direct users towards a filesystem that is more
> resilient and requires
> less watering?
> 
> All of this is entirely moot with gefs right around the corner. I can't
> imagine someone
> willingly want to use fossil with gefs as a (soon to be) alternative.
> 

-- 
Lucio De Re
2 Piet Retief St
Kestell (Eastern Free State)
9860 South Africa

Ph.: +27 58 653 1433
Cell: +27 83 251 5824

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 11:20, Don Bailey wrote:
> 
> I have zero emotional attachment to Fossil. What I am asking for, not even 
> demanding, is a fact-based assessment of the asserted issue. Pointing at the 
> code is not an emotional attachment. It's literally the opposite. It's asking 
> to demonstrate and document the issues, instead of asserting that something 
> is awful because /you/ have had an emotional reaction to it failing. How did 
> it fail? Can you reproduce it? What code is bad? Why is the code bad? If you 
> can't answer these questions, maybe you
> shouldn't have removed it. 

The emotional accusation I understand, it really seems like it's just fossil 
that evokes this
reaction out of people. Just fossil that makes people want us to prove without 
any reason of doubt that the
code should have been removed. I also just don't understand why people are so 
attached to fossil.
Is it because people feel like there is a high burden of evidence for touching 
the holy code
as ordained by bell labs? We didn't want it so it went. If you think this is 
actually a
mistake and there is a world of possibility to be had thanks to fossil in Plan 
9 I encourage
you to maintain fossil yourself and prove to us that we were wrong in thinking 
it was dead weight.

I want to specifically compare the discussion that happened on this thread 
between p9sk1
and fossil. We think that no one should be using p9sk1, and so we spent the 
time to explain
to others the very real, concrete and specific issues with the code and 
implementation.

We are not telling any other user of Plan 9 to not use fossil if they'd like, 
we simply don't want to
deal with it in 9front. I think the burden of proof you are putting on us to 
make this
decision would only make sense if we were advocating for other distributions 
and current
users of fossil to no longer use it. It's fine, we're just not interested in 
it, sorry.

As I, and others, have pointed out now a couple of times. Adding fossil back to 
9front
is trivial. Perhaps you haven't had the experience of having to sit in irc and 
help
new users get going with the system who really don't have opinions about 
anything and
then dealing with the outcomes when things blow up. As you said fossil is not 
exactly
easy to deal with, it needs a lot of special consideration. So why then are you 
complaining
that 9front made the decision to remove that option for the uninformed user? 
Does it not
make more sense to direct users towards a filesystem that is more resilient and 
requires
less watering?

All of this is entirely moot with gefs right around the corner. I can't imagine 
someone
willingly want to use fossil with gefs as a (soon to be) alternative.

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:54:41PM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> You handwave insults off by pretending like they aren't directed at the
> exact person you're responding to :-)
> 
> It's quite tiresome, and yet persistent.

When else has it happened?  Do I always do it?  Are there firmware
differences? Have you collected logs on the matter?  I just don't think
you have the data to back up this persistence claim.

I'm generally pretty direct when I want to insult someone.  It's not
like there are meaningful consequences.  If you feel like you were
subject to the category of people I was describing, there's not much I
can do about that, I guess.

khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

You handwave insults off by pretending like they aren't directed at the
exact person you're responding to :-)

It's quite tiresome, and yet persistent.

D


On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:53 PM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
wrote:

> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:20:04PM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> > Again, this is a core example I'm talking about. In this email you've
> > called me gross, a bootlicker, etc, while ignoring my concerns and
> brushing
> > them off as "emotional".
> 
> What part of "not directed at you, Don" did you fail to parse?
> 
> What other entire clauses in my email messages have you failed to parse?
> This is a concerning development.
> 
> khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread Kurt H Maier via 9fans

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:20:04PM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> Again, this is a core example I'm talking about. In this email you've
> called me gross, a bootlicker, etc, while ignoring my concerns and brushing
> them off as "emotional".

What part of "not directed at you, Don" did you fail to parse?

What other entire clauses in my email messages have you failed to parse?
This is a concerning development.

khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Back to square one, are we lol

On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:24 PM hiro <23h...@gmail.com> wrote:

> > The presumption you're making is based on the fact that it is easy /for
> you/.
>
> That is correct.
>
> > A valid reason is, for those that don't know what Fossil is, and what to
> understand the history of 9fans decision making, there is no way to know
> that decision was made, or why.
> 
> A valid reason for what?

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Thank you, I look forward to seeing your work then.

On 5/15/24 11:21, Don Bailey wrote:
> Sounds good.
> 
> D
> 
> 
> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:19 PM Jacob Moody  > wrote:
> 
> On 5/15/24 10:56, Don Bailey wrote:
> > Yeah but that's the thing... "explained in this list" works while the 
> discussion is being had. But searching for that and attempting to grok the 
> discussion and the context of discussion at a later date? Not so much. Some 
> centralized documentation should be used to make these decisions clear. In 
> the commit messages is not sufficient, either. One still must search through 
> the commit messages and identify the branch/context/etc. Plus, you have to 
> /know/ about what you are looking for, if
> something
> > was removed. A separate document that outlines these 
> removed/altered/added items, and the rationale/context, would solve that. 
> Does that help illuminate the problem I'm discussing? 
> 
> Who exactly is the audience here? If the audience is developers then the 
> commit message is fine, if someone wants to know why code was changed that is 
> where you put the reasoning.
> People here like to work on code, less so on writing up whatever 
> justification you personally feel is sufficient to warrant whatever we're 
> doing. I already stated that I think
> these days more rationale and notice would be given to people for a 
> change that big, things are trending towards what I think you want.
> 
> If however you (or someone else) wanted to do what you are asking us to 
> do, which is spend the significant time it takes to demonstrably prove that 
> fossil is _not_ busted
> as we think it is and present it to us that would make for a compelling 
> argument for inclusion. Perhaps what you do could become the standard for how 
> these large changes
> are documented going forward.
> 
> Or if you'd like to start with a fork and/or raise your own community 
> with this high level of standard for code changes I would absolutely 
> encourage you to do so, if
> that is truly a better way of doing open source then it will be evident. 
> But right now I can't help but read this as asking us (people writing code 
> for 9front) to do
> more work to appease you when you are not interested in helping get that 
> work done.
> 
> 
> --
> 9fans: 9fans
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>  
> 
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> 
> 
> *9fans * / 9fans / see discussions 
>  + participants 
>  + delivery options 
>  Permalink 
> 

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

2024-05-15 Thread hiro

> The presumption you're making is based on the fact that it is easy /for you/.

That is correct.

> A valid reason is, for those that don't know what Fossil is, and what to 
> understand the history of 9fans decision making, there is no way to know that 
> decision was made, or why.

A valid reason for what?

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Sounds good.

D


On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:19 PM Jacob Moody  wrote:

> On 5/15/24 10:56, Don Bailey wrote:
> > Yeah but that's the thing... "explained in this list" works while the
> discussion is being had. But searching for that and attempting to grok the
> discussion and the context of discussion at a later date? Not so much. Some
> centralized documentation should be used to make these decisions clear. In
> the commit messages is not sufficient, either. One still must search
> through the commit messages and identify the branch/context/etc. Plus, you
> have to /know/ about what you are looking for, if something
> > was removed. A separate document that outlines these
> removed/altered/added items, and the rationale/context, would solve that.
> Does that help illuminate the problem I'm discussing?
> 
> Who exactly is the audience here? If the audience is developers then the
> commit message is fine, if someone wants to know why code was changed that
> is where you put the reasoning.
> People here like to work on code, less so on writing up whatever
> justification you personally feel is sufficient to warrant whatever we're
> doing. I already stated that I think
> these days more rationale and notice would be given to people for a change
> that big, things are trending towards what I think you want.
> 
> If however you (or someone else) wanted to do what you are asking us to
> do, which is spend the significant time it takes to demonstrably prove that
> fossil is _not_ busted
> as we think it is and present it to us that would make for a compelling
> argument for inclusion. Perhaps what you do could become the standard for
> how these large changes
> are documented going forward.
> 
> Or if you'd like to start with a fork and/or raise your own community with
> this high level of standard for code changes I would absolutely encourage
> you to do so, if
> that is truly a better way of doing open source then it will be evident.
> But right now I can't help but read this as asking us (people writing code
> for 9front) to do
> more work to appease you when you are not interested in helping get that
> work done.
> 

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

Again, this is a core example I'm talking about. In this email you've
called me gross, a bootlicker, etc, while ignoring my concerns and brushing
them off as "emotional".

I have zero emotional attachment to Fossil. What I am asking for, not even
demanding, is a fact-based assessment of the asserted issue. Pointing at
the code is not an emotional attachment. It's literally the opposite. It's
asking to demonstrate and document the issues, instead of asserting that
something is awful because /you/ have had an emotional reaction to it
failing. How did it fail? Can you reproduce it? What code is bad? Why is
the code bad? If you can't answer these questions, maybe you shouldn't have
removed it.

D


On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 12:12 PM Kurt H Maier via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>
wrote:

> On Wed, May 15, 2024 at 11:53:28AM -0400, Don Bailey wrote:
> > It's not gaslighting to ask for evidence. I was here, I remember the
> > complains with Fossil. But to what degree was that /actually/ Fossil?
> What
> > degree was it the configurations, the hardware, the firmware, the
> > consistency of management/usage? What investigations have gone into those
> > bits, as well. Setting up and running Fossil requires some knowledge and
> > maintenance. It is not unlike a classic Volkswagen. They run great if you
> > constantly bother with them.
>
> Believe me, it causes me great personal pain to say this, as a dude who
> just sold an 85 Jetta and must physically restrain himself from filling
> his yard with air-cooled Boxers, but "constantly bothering" and "running
> great" are mutually exclusive.
>
> > It isn't gaslighting to ask for those details. And if we are a
> code-centric
> > community, as we claim to be, point to the code that shows me it's
> > problematic and unstable. Have you found it? And I don't say that to be
> > coy... where can we demonstrably show that Fossil is volatile? What data
> > backs that up?
>
> It's great that you're willing to take bug reports seriously!  If that
> had been the prevailing attitude on 9fans some years back, 9front
> probably wouldn't exist, much less exist without an in-tree Fossil.  But
> your "point to the code" demand is not a great look.  That *is* more
> like the old-school response to Fossil bug reports.  In a way, deleting
> Fossil was the grandest test of all -- since it's gone, Fossil has
> stopped corrupting my data for sure.  So there's the code causing the
> problem, at the granularity I consider worthwhile to pursue.  Nobody
> owes you a scientific analysis.
>
> But if you (or anyone else) wants to put this stuff back in the 9front
> tree, it needs to be clearly demonstrated that it won't be a massive
> timesink and a distraction from the other, more fun filesystems we have.
>
> > So this is, again, the problem I have with what has occurred on this
> list.
> > Anything certain parties here disagree with is brushed off as trolling or
> > "gaslighting" or any other such term that rationalizes dismissal. Let's
> be
> > prescriptive, instead.
> 
> No, not "anything."  Specifically this Fossil nonsense.  I don't know
> why so many people have deep emotional ties to Fossil, and I'm not
> really interested in finding out, but the years of hostility torward
> problem reports regarding Fossil, interspersed with "fixes" that
> weren't, led me (as an outsider) to conclude that nobody actually
> understands how the damn thing works, and if they do they're not
> interested in helping maintain it... and that alone is a great reason to
> delete the code.
> 
> Anyway I don't understand why everyone is pissed about this.  Anyone who
> wants Fossil can install it.  If you want a 'canonical' Fossil, upload
> it somewhere and canonize it.  Problem solved.
> 
> As an aside, not directed at you, Don: this weird bootlicking where a
> commercial entity has to be involved to make something 'real' is pretty
> gross.  We don't need bureaucracy to help one another, and I will never
> give a shit if someone's use of the software is for-profit or not, and I
> don't understand why it matters at all.
> 
> khm

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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.

On 5/15/24 10:57, hiro wrote:
>> I don't understand the difference between code being included in the 
>> distribution and being "back in 9front". These are the same thing. If we 
>> ship code we maintain it.
> 
> there are some exceptions :)

I would like to see a list, that could should either be fixed or removed in my 
opinion.



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Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.