Re: [9fans] Throwing in the Towel
Finally,. SSDs just die over time. Especially if they are not powered on and refreshing. JEDEC specs say that they should retain data for 1 year unplugged when stored at 30 degrees celsius, assuming the internet isn't lying to me. Keep backups. Quoth Dave Eckhardt : > > For the napkin calculation: On disk, the IEntry is 38Bytes. Alas, > > writes occur always in (the ssd internal) blocksize. So, essentially > > (assuming 4096 byte blocksize, which is quite optimistic), we have > > a write efficiency of less than 1 percent. > > While I see how such a model can predict disaster, I don't think that > model matches how FTLs work, because it can't. > > Many file systems (FAT, ext2/3/4) write the same logical block over > and over and over and over and over. I think the default interval > for ext4 to synch the superblock and the journal is five seconds, > which if true is more than 15,000 times every *day* for a busy > file system (and I think lots of Linux systems are busy in that > sense). > > > A good firmware in the ssd could avoid needing a new block for the > > write, if all bits are changed in teh same direction by the new > > data. > > Again, I believe this model predicts that no regular Linux file > system can be used on any SSD, thus I believe this model is not > accurate. > > To quote Wikipedia: > > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flash_memory_controller > > > The mapping units of an FTL can differ so that LBAs are mapped > > block-, page- or even sub-page-based. Depending on the usage > > pattern, a finer mapping granularity can significantly reduce > > the flash wear out and maximize the endurance of a flash based > > storage media. > > Also, I feel as if this point is several assumption layers deep. > I think one user reported an unknown number of failures in two > sets of SSDs of unknown brand and model. I don't think we know > that it was venti SSDs that went bad as opposed to fossil SSDs, > let alone knowing it was index SSDs for venti. > > > It seems, venti in its current form is a ssd killer, if they > > are used for the isects. > > I don't think this claim is yet supported well. > > Dave Eckhardt -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T2ca67486c7a13a77-M076297816c8a30d15e67368f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
I'm not sure it is interesting. Quoth pl...@room3420.net: > an other interesting reading : > https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/critical-analysis-9front-community-conflict-vester-thacker-htt3f?trk=article-ssr-frontend-pulse_more-articles_related-content-card -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te051f230f2656bbb-M5a800d099a877c4c827be898 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
Quoth samuel.reader via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>: > Someone asked about the differences between 9front and 9legacy. This first > draft provides a brief overview. > https://link.storjshare.io/s/jx6tw46kfxskld45ussjek46ccpq/revitalizing-project/RevitalizingPlan9.pdf Unfortunately, it doesn't provide a correct overview. For example, 9front added no syscalls beyond picking up the 'nsec' system call that 9legacy had added. We deprecated it on import, but it was needed to run go binaries. The rest of this seems similarly accurate. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te051f230f2656bbb-M777c67b2191bf9d3c5c7a35c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > Sadly, I don't have what it takes to bridge the gap. I think that my > idea of mending the communities is too grand. Also, I'm saddened > to see the more I try to help the worse the situation becomes. The communities are mending more or less fine, at least among the people who actually hack on things. Code is shared and imported in both directions, and discussion is happening. What is making things worse for you is back seat driving. Starting from a position of contributing work might go over well. Trying to tell me how I should spend my time will require you to pay me. For example: > I have my own personal Plan 9 distribution that I have been using > for years, circa 2006. Why should I listen to you about how to heal fractured communities, when you have a community so fractured, it has one member, and was effectively a secret for 18 years? A first step would be putting it out there. A second would be listing the changes you've felt the need to make. Ideally with some reasoning. If that's out there, I'll happily look through, and if it makes sense, I'll integrate parts into 9front. The 9legacy folks may or may not, but at least they'll have the choice. So: > but I find it challenging to contribute. If you want to change that, I think the first step is starting with some humility. Instead of trying to make other people into your unpaid interns, start by figuring out how to contribute. Find a bug. Write a patch. Send a fix. Work on a specific problem. Realize that people will only pay attention after work gets done. But, I've said this before. I don't expect it will get listened to this time either. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-Mbb3343ea7875fc0ca134f356 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9.
Quoth Lucio De Re : > I have asked precisely NOTHING and have only pointed out the consequences > of omitting sources from the 9front distribution because it leads to > undesirable divisions. Yes, in theory it would have been nice if we had people who had volunteered to maintain it. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tad3dc0c93039a7d2-M20880e83e49b8dce990f212f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Clarifying Lucio's Additional Requests [Was: Re: [9fans] List of companies that use Plan 9. ]
Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > A better solution might be to inform others on how to interface with > each community. For example, providing clear instructions on how to > submit feature and bug requests. This is something I haven’t seen > mentioned recently. It would be beneficial for each community to > explain what is acceptable in these interactions. Section 2.4 and 2.5 of the FQA: https://fqa.9front.org/fqa2.html#2.4 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9bf40e9448c878ab-M377f31693fad0bf7dadf6e6f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
On Mon, 13 May 2024 11:56:20 -0400 "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > I'm wondering why you don't adjust it so that 9front can also be run there. Because 9vx is a hacky dead end; it fundamentally only runs (and can only run) on 32-bit x86. It works because of a quirk of 32-bit x86 addressing. Linux distros are wanting to drop support for running 32 bit binaries (Ubuntu tried in 2019, others have tried on and off). Macs no longer ship x86 processors, and even the ones that have x86 cpus dropped support for 32-bit binaries 5 years ago. I have no idea what windows is up to. Basically, qemu/drawterm works better in more or less every way. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te051f230f2656bbb-M5d593a074dd95a16887f6a83 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
Quoth Jacob Moody : > If there were a couple of open source Plan 9 forks that each saw > active development and we were having issues with keeping the source > code ported between them sure I could see this as a reason to do > that. We have however never found that the source code proved much of > a challenge Actually -- to that point: if someone is looking for organizational work to do, that work could be finding people with private forks of Plan 9, and then convincing them to make it public. Following that up with cataloguing the differences between the various forks would also be useful work. Harvey has actually done a decent amount of this, putting the forks into branches in the repo: https://github.com/Harvey-OS/harvey -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-Mc49aaeab71da21ea885cbe31 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
Quoth ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>: > On Monday, 13 May 2024, at 4:01 PM, hiro wrote: > > did you ever hear of the git > implementation that ori has implemented? > > It was placed on the latest 9legacy CD and I'm not needing/using it. I'm > using fossil-scm which replaced cvs for me. Fossil is running on a linux > machine in my network and is remotly accessible from plan9. But the choice of > a scm is a question of taste. > it's a sad system that can't even host its own sources. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-Mf6f39b8373cc63a544f217ef Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
On Mon, 13 May 2024 06:52:37 -0400, "ibrahim via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > > This was an example and I didn't find the original licenses from freetype in > the folder or in the code. Perhaps they got lost while porting this code to > 9front. Indeed, it would be strange to find them, given that we don't ship freetype. -- Ori Bernstein -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-Me2f7348f05a060950815e38e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
oals and > > values that resonate with all members. What are your thoughts on creating > > open channels for dialogue and collaboration? How can we ensure that > > everyone feels valued and heard? This approach could foster a more > > cooperative and inclusive environment. > > > >> > > > >> Vic > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 16:19, pl...@room3420.net wrote: > > > >> > "tl;dr: you need people doing the work before you can try > > > >> > to organize them; the way to get people doing the work is > > > >> > to bootstrap it by doing work and showing value." [from Ori]. > > > >> > or > > > >> > "Don't be the kid who can't play [whatever]ball but wants to teach > > > >> > everybody and be the team coach, just because he read a book." -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M81117d268b8f840b41281f04 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
I don't think this approach has ever worked in the open source world -- it always starts with someone building something useful. The vision and goal is defined by the work being done. After something useful is built, people start to join in and contribute. After enough people join in, it makes sense to have more organization. Quoth vester.thac...@fastmail.fm: > The complexity of communication in this medium often necessitates detailed > discussions. You highlighted the need for additional personnel to manage the > workload (e.g. do the work). From my perspective, this requires a > well-defined vision, clear objectives, and a prioritized list of deliverables > to align efforts effectively. Currently, it seems the role of product > managers is collectively held, though it's unclear who exactly is > responsible. Typically, a team of two or more individuals would focus on > these deliverables. In past projects, I've seen the use of a project board > to keep everyone updated on tasks—an approach known as "information radiator" > in project management. I'm open to other methods if you had something > different in mind that I may have overlooked. If you are considering a > meritocracy, I would recommend caution. Experience has shown that what we > truly need is increased collaboration and unity, rather than a system that > could potentially encourage competition and division. I apologize if my > message is obtuse, I am trying to keep this message concise, I can expound > more for clarity. I hope my explanation helps. > > Vic > > > On Mon, May 13, 2024, at 03:36, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: > > that's not what I said. > > > > Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > >> I agree that having a clear vision and charter is essential before forming > >> a team. Regarding building an inclusive Plan 9 community that encompasses > >> multiple groups, it's important to establish common goals and values that > >> resonate with all members. What are your thoughts on creating open > >> channels for dialogue and collaboration? How can we ensure that everyone > >> feels valued and heard? This approach could foster a more cooperative and > >> inclusive environment. > >> > >> Vic > >> > >> > >> On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 16:19, pl...@room3420.net wrote: > >> > "tl;dr: you need people doing the work before you can try > >> > to organize them; the way to get people doing the work is > >> > to bootstrap it by doing work and showing value." [from Ori]. > >> > or > >> > "Don't be the kid who can't play [whatever]ball but wants to teach > >> > everybody and be the team coach, just because he read a book." -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M0a94c7102286e462a972a310 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] one weird trick to break p9sk1 ?
Quoth o...@eigenstate.org:
> Quoth Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com>:
> > I'm using a new subject [was: Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front]
> > in the hope of continuing discussion of the vulnerability of p9sk1 without
> > too many other distractions.
> >
> > mo...@posixcafe.org said:
> > > If we agree that:
> > >
> > > 1) p9sk1 allows the shared secret to be brute-forced offline.
> > > 2) The average consumer machine is fast enough to make a large amount of
> > > attempts in a short time,
> > >in other words triple DES is not computationally hard to brute force
> > > these days.
> > >
> > > I don't know how you don't see how this is trivial to do.
> >
> > I agree that 1) is true, but I don't think it's serious. The shared secret
> > is
> > only valid for the current session, so by the time it's brute forced, it may
> > be too late to use. I think the bad vulnerability is that the ticket request
> > and response can be used offline to brute force the (more permanent) DES
> > keys
> > of the client and server. Provided, of course, that the random teenager
> > somehow
> > is able to listen in on the conversation between my p9sk1 clients and
> > servers.
> >
> > On the other hand, it's hard to know whether to agree or disagree with 2),
> > without knowing exactly what is meant by "large amount", "short time",
> > "computationally hard", and "trivial".
> >
> > When Jacob told me at IWP9 in Waterloo that p9sk1 had been broken, not
> > just theoretically but in practice, I was looking forward to seeing
> > publication
> > of the details. Ori's recent claim in 9fans seemed more specific:
> >
>
> The intial exchange sends across the challenges:
>
> C→S: CHc
> S→C: AuthTreq, IDs, DN, CHs, -, -
>
Oops -- wrong messages; these are the ones
you want to be breaking:
C→A: AuthTreq, IDs, DN, CHs, IDc, IDr
A→C: AuthOK, Kc{AuthTc, CHs, IDc, IDr, Kn}, Ks{AuthTs, CHs,
IDc, IDr, Kn}
Thanks to cinap for pointing that out.
--
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Re: [9fans] Balancing Progress and Accessibility in the Plan 9 Community. (Was: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front)
that's not what I said. Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > I agree that having a clear vision and charter is essential before forming a > team. Regarding building an inclusive Plan 9 community that encompasses > multiple groups, it's important to establish common goals and values that > resonate with all members. What are your thoughts on creating open channels > for dialogue and collaboration? How can we ensure that everyone feels valued > and heard? This approach could foster a more cooperative and inclusive > environment. > > Vic > > > On Sun, May 12, 2024, at 16:19, pl...@room3420.net wrote: > > "tl;dr: you need people doing the work before you can try > > to organize them; the way to get people doing the work is > > to bootstrap it by doing work and showing value." [from Ori]. > > or > > "Don't be the kid who can't play [whatever]ball but wants to teach > > everybody and be the team coach, just because he read a book." -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcf128fa955b8aafc-M29a8b8a91cbfeb7a6d3a88d3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] one weird trick to break p9sk1 ?
Quoth Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com>:
> I'm using a new subject [was: Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front]
> in the hope of continuing discussion of the vulnerability of p9sk1 without
> too many other distractions.
>
> mo...@posixcafe.org said:
> > If we agree that:
> >
> > 1) p9sk1 allows the shared secret to be brute-forced offline.
> > 2) The average consumer machine is fast enough to make a large amount of
> > attempts in a short time,
> >in other words triple DES is not computationally hard to brute force
> > these days.
> >
> > I don't know how you don't see how this is trivial to do.
>
> I agree that 1) is true, but I don't think it's serious. The shared secret is
> only valid for the current session, so by the time it's brute forced, it may
> be too late to use. I think the bad vulnerability is that the ticket request
> and response can be used offline to brute force the (more permanent) DES keys
> of the client and server. Provided, of course, that the random teenager
> somehow
> is able to listen in on the conversation between my p9sk1 clients and servers.
>
> On the other hand, it's hard to know whether to agree or disagree with 2),
> without knowing exactly what is meant by "large amount", "short time",
> "computationally hard", and "trivial".
>
> When Jacob told me at IWP9 in Waterloo that p9sk1 had been broken, not
> just theoretically but in practice, I was looking forward to seeing
> publication
> of the details. Ori's recent claim in 9fans seemed more specific:
>
The intial exchange sends across the challenges:
C→S: CHc
S→C: AuthTreq, IDs, DN, CHs, -, -
Because the challenge and IDs are sent as plain text, if I
can decrypt the client message with a key and find my known
plain text, that key will work to authenticate the client.
For example, if I have a ticket, and a trace of the first
few packets of the key exchange, I have enough information
to do something like this:
ticketpair = {
Kc{AuthTc, CHs, IDc, IDr, Kn},
Ks{AuthTs, CHs, IDc, IDr, Kn}
}
cmsg = ticketpair[0]
for(k in keyspace){
m = decrypt(k, cmsg)
if(m.CHs == CHs && m.IDs == IDs)
probably_bingo()
}
At that point, I need to guess the username, but this often
is relatively easy -- often, this is posted publicly; you
can probably guess that my user is 'ori' without trouble.
With those bits of information, you're able to complete a
new exchange as the client, and log in successfully.
The EFF was cracking DES keys in 22 hours back in 1998.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EFF_DES_cracker
Hardware, in particular GPUs, have gotten quite a bit
better since then.
--
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Re: [9fans] Interoperating between 9legacy and 9front
keep in mind that it can literally be brute forced in an afternoon by a teenager; even a gpu isn't needed to do this in a reasonable amount of time. Quoth Lucas Francesco : > https://seh.dev/p9sk1/ > > On Thu, 9 May 2024 at 08:01, Lucio De Re wrote: > > > > That seems simple enough, but "enable p9sk1 for the hostowner on 9front" > > isn't something I'm familiar with. Is it an additional attribute in the > > network database that I am not aware of? > > > > I will check the manual pages, although I'm not sure what to look for. I > > did note when creating a user or similar activity that a special case was > > made to include p9sk1 somewhere and I did later wonder about it, which is > > what my long question was all about, but I could not see where the details > > were hiding. > > > > Much appreciated, in any case, thank you. > > > > And, yes, plan9port is based on what has now become 9legacy, but there are > > significant 9front contributions. It would have been quite helpful if p9p > > development had been farmed out to a team comprising developers (and > > designers) from both camps. > > > > Lucio. > > > > On Thu, May 9, 2024 at 11:06 AM wrote: > >> > >> I am using fossil on plan9port (which should be similar to 9legacy) from > >> 9front. The only thing which I needed was to enable p9sk1 for the > >> hostowner on 9front (the auth server) and a factotum entry for this in > >> the file server, IIRC. > > > > > > > > -- > > Lucio De Re > > 2 Piet Retief St > > Kestell (Eastern Free State) > > 9860 South Africa > > > > Ph.: +27 58 653 1433 > > Cell: +27 83 251 5824 > > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tde2ca2adda383a3a-M9ae912348a14965096f54bc2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] VCS on Plan9
Quoth Dan Cross : > > Correct me if I'm wrong, but this is just an `echo` into fossilcons, > isn't it? `fsys main snap -a` or something like it? it would be if being able to write to fossilcons didn't imply being able to do a lot more than creating a new snapshot. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tab2715b0e6f3e0a5-M3f392236402010c98cf4caeb Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] VCS on Plan9
On Thu, 18 Apr 2024 15:54:07 + "certanan via 9fans" <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > Hi, > > is there any more "organic/natural" way to do source control on today's Plan9 > (9front specifically), other than Ori's Git? on today's plan 9? no. > > In other words, how (if at all) did people at Bell Labs and the community > alike originally manage their contributions in a way that would allow them to > create patches without much hassle? on labs plan 9: https://9p.io/magic/man2html/1/patch I dont think anyone is submitting patches with this any more. > > Was it as simple as backing a source tree up, making some changes, and then > comparing the two? Venti? Replica? > > tom -- Ori Bernstein -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tab2715b0e6f3e0a5-M59f6a60a62da218a9404b228 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] troll paper
Quoth Charles Forsyth : > > it's been a little while since i first looked at it, but i think one of the > example application is exactly how one might use it to avoid 80k lines of > yaml that you must look at directly. while it may help -- this is just stacking complexity on top of complexity. kubernetes may be a tool that some of us need to deal with for our jobs, but it has no place in a well designed rethink of the world. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T51f7f5a8927e1271-M258f197be9ba11ce28b6cc6e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] Last Call: IWP9 Shirts + Registration
While we're happy to take late registrations, we need to put out the t-shirt order. I'll be sending that out on April 1st, so if you haven't registered before then, your shirt will not be ordered. For those that have ordered, there should be an email requesting shirt size info that you need to respond to. -- Ori Bernstein -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T05224b13e5a0cf96-M94d192f2eec9c484f2a6545b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] IWP9 Papers: Tomorrow. IWP9 WIPs: Feb 27th.
Sending out a final reminder. Thanks for your time and effort. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5ad337fb11024964-Mcb20ee1a1a6b4276241afc8b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Update: Papers are due on Feb 13th.
Enough people spoke up asking for extensions that we extended it. You've got until Feb 13th. Quoth o...@eigenstate.org: > > Just a reminder: Papers are due on Jan 30th, > WIPs are on Feb 12th. > > If you want to submit, but need more time, let > us know. (And thanks to those that have already > done this) -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T64782cf0c730793a-Mf58bf511cc597228f17b591a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] Reminder: Papers are due on the 30th.
Just a reminder: Papers are due on Jan 30th, WIPs are on Feb 12th. If you want to submit, but need more time, let us know. (And thanks to those that have already done this) -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Td267d7a4f880398a-M43940e45f3e93298d62e3dda Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Formation of a Plan 9 Core Team
In my experience, an open source team forms when someone does work. If the work is good, others join in. They start with someone taking initiative to build. Eventually, it may make sense to put in some bureaucracy, as people doing the work struggle to communicate effectively. Right now, it appears that (outside 9front) the problem is the opposite -- there's a lot of folks trying to communicate a direction, but far too few sharing code. It may be worth quoting the FreeBSD wiki on what their core team does: The FreeBSD/core team manages the project as a whole. In theory, they set the long term goals and agenda for development and then delegate the implementation of these goals to the appropriate teams. In reality, the groups of developers doing work in a particular area tend to have an even greater say in the direction of the project. The core team has historically recognized this and gives great deference to active, productive members of the community in matters of direction. Core, and its members, encourage the developer community to work together towards a consensus driven final goal. Core rarely explicitly endorses these goals, but often takes note of progress or its lack in areas important to the project. Again, it's worth emphasizing here that the FreeBSD core team sees its job as facilitating consensus, and dictating direction is a failure mode rather than the common outcome. Don't worry: if you start setting a direction and making progress, you'll have a peanut gallery chiming in and trying to chart the work you do. If you're lucky, some may even help. Quoth Vester \Vic\" Thacker : > Is there interest in establishing a dedicated Plan 9 Core Team to spearhead > its technical development? When we look at other communities like FreeBSD, > they have both a foundation and a core team, with the latter overseeing the > technical aspects of the project. If this idea resonates with you, then the > idea of selecting members for the Plan 9 Core Team is worth considering. > It's important to note that the Plan 9 ecosystem consists of multiple > distributions. It's possible that the technical leaders of these projects > might be willing to step up and contribute their expertise to the Plan 9 Core > Team, offering valuable guidance and facilitating the development of a new > mainline. > > The Core Team's responsibilities would include making the tough decisions > required to chart the future course of Plan 9. What are your thoughts on this > proposal? > > --vic > -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T8d272411830cebfc-Mb98bf58b1bd32699b4a025de Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
Great; let me repeat one more time: The Plan 9 foundation does not currently engage in technical work such as putting together releases. There will be no release from the P9F including 9front code, because there will be no release from the P9F. If you feel the need for a release, I encourage you to make one. If you feel your release is insufficently formal, I suggest renting a tux. Quoth Don A. Bailey : > I’m aware you’re a member of the foundation. > > What I want I think I’ve made clear. I do not want to see a formal release of > Plan 9 that includes anything from the 9front project. I do not want 9front > merged with what I tongue-in-cheek term “mainline” (9legacy / 9pio updated > patch sets). I’d rather 9front stay its own thing. I’m certain there are a > lot of relevant contributions within 9front but I think its place is as its > own niche system. > > Thanks! > > > > On Jan 25, 2024, at 4:55 PM, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: > > > > Quoth Don A. Bailey : > >> I’d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would > >> like to only receive patches through them. > > > > Speaking as a member of the foundation, we do not manage sources > > or distribute patches. We do not maintain a Plan 9 distribution, > > and currently have no plans to do so. > > > > Our focus, in line with our charter, is not technical. We focus > > on growing the Plan 9 community, and providing ways to help the > > Plan 9 diaspora with their technical work, and helping with the > > logistics involved in that. An example of the work the P9F may > > take on would be organizing IWP9. > > > > While I have not discussed with the rest of the P9F, I think > > providing infrastructure to support community projects would > > also fit our goals. > > > > If you have specific ways we can support people like you > > taking up the torch and carrying plan 9 development forward, > > please speak up and let us know; I'll ensure that it gets > > discussed at the next P9F meeting. > > -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mc9e01fa7ceef47566de34f76 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] P9F meetings (was: Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community)
Quoth David Arnold : > > On 26 Jan 2024, at 07:38, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: > > <…> > > > If you have specific ways we can support people like you > > taking up the torch and carrying plan 9 development forward, > > please speak up and let us know; I'll ensure that it gets > > discussed at the next P9F meeting. > > Is there any record of P9F meetings? Agendas or minutes? Even recordings or > transcripts? > > From my (admittedly very peripheral) position, the activities of the > Foundation are almost completely opaque. It’d be great to see some more of > its activity. > I'm not aware of any public record at the moment; Speaking purely for myself, it seems like a good idea to post a regular summary. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3cf0d30fdee278a6-M8d5ff6bc8d9587bf63f1e96a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
Also: We're organizing IWP9 largely as a forum for folks like you to figure out how to make this all happen; there's going to be plenty of time between talks as well as hacking days to figure out what code needs to be written, what patches exist in people's local trees, plenty of napkins (and, if you're lucky, whiteboards) to figure out designs, and even get a head start on it. Considering submitting some WIP or opinion papers on the details of how you plan to accomplish this. Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly aware > of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of > distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is > undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 > Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance > our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 > Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for > innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared > passions and expertise. > > The Need for Modernization > > Technological Evolution: > We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last > iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's > essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest advancements > in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is crucial > to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern tech > toolkit. > > Security Enhancements: > In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a reality > we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include > cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work > we do from emerging cyber risks. > > Hardware Compatibility: > The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. > Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving its > usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, > something we, as 9fans, have always embraced. > > Fostering Innovation > > Research and Education: > Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has always > been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release would > re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for continued > exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can achieve with > Plan 9. > > Community Engagement: > A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an > opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a richer > ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5 > could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations and > innovations. > > Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential: > Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabilities, > especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distributed > systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and > forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. > > Practical Considerations > > Resource Allocation: > We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing > Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective > knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new > partnerships or funding avenues. > > Backward Compatibility: > Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and > ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while > charting a course for its future. > > Documentation and Support: > Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new > release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will aid > in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we can > all be proud of. > > Conclusion > > The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s a > reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the > vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards ensuring > Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the modern era. > It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of research, > education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, and the > community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 while shaping > its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping the next chapter > in the Plan 9 story. > > > Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. > --vic > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: > > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: > >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
Also: We're organizing IWP9 largely as a forum for folks like you to figure out how to make this all happen; there's going to be plenty of time between talks as well as hacking days to figure out what code needs to be written, what patches exist in people's local trees, plenty of napkins (and, if you're lucky, whiteboards) to figure out designs, and even get a head start on it. Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly aware > of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of > distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is > undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 > Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance > our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 > Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for > innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared > passions and expertise. > > The Need for Modernization > > Technological Evolution: > We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last > iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's > essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest advancements > in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is crucial > to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern tech > toolkit. > > Security Enhancements: > In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a reality > we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include > cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work > we do from emerging cyber risks. > > Hardware Compatibility: > The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. > Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving its > usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, > something we, as 9fans, have always embraced. > > Fostering Innovation > > Research and Education: > Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has always > been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release would > re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for continued > exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can achieve with > Plan 9. > > Community Engagement: > A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an > opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a richer > ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5 > could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations and > innovations. > > Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential: > Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabilities, > especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distributed > systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and > forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. > > Practical Considerations > > Resource Allocation: > We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing > Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective > knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new > partnerships or funding avenues. > > Backward Compatibility: > Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and > ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while > charting a course for its future. > > Documentation and Support: > Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new > release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will aid > in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we can > all be proud of. > > Conclusion > > The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s a > reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the > vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards ensuring > Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the modern era. > It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of research, > education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, and the > community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 while shaping > its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping the next chapter > in the Plan 9 story. > > > Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. > --vic > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: > > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: > >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think that > >> it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But it > >> is more
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
Quoth Don A. Bailey : > I’d prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would > like to only receive patches through them. Speaking as a member of the foundation, we do not manage sources or distribute patches. We do not maintain a Plan 9 distribution, and currently have no plans to do so. Our focus, in line with our charter, is not technical. We focus on growing the Plan 9 community, and providing ways to help the Plan 9 diaspora with their technical work, and helping with the logistics involved in that. An example of the work the P9F may take on would be organizing IWP9. While I have not discussed with the rest of the P9F, I think providing infrastructure to support community projects would also fit our goals. If you have specific ways we can support people like you taking up the torch and carrying plan 9 development forward, please speak up and let us know; I'll ensure that it gets discussed at the next P9F meeting. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-M5ae214e320dfa1c4360a9767 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
I'm not sure what a mainline Plan 9 means. Can you define that term, and tell me who maintains it? Quoth Don Bailey : > I'm not sure what all this was, so I didn't read most of it. > > If 9front becomes the "mainline" 9, I will stop using 9 altogether. Both as > a user and a developer. > > I trust the sources that come from 9legacy/9pio but I don't have any > interest in the mess of whatever 9front is supposed to be. > > D > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 11:40 AM hiro via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net> wrote: > > > > I am not a fan of the weird 9front split from the standard repo. I’d > > prefer the sources to be managed by the foundation and would like to only > > receive patches through them. > > > > Are you speaking as part of the foundation? As a developer? Or as a User? > > > > Me, as a user, I would also appreciate if the foundation (or the real > > bell-labs unix room heritage, before the foundation existed) would > > "manage" something. for example development and continuous hosting of > > the sources server. This doesn't seem to be the case. > > > > I also would appreciate the making available of patches by the > > foundation. I have no clue where their codebase is moving in the last > > few years as there was no single commit (or even simple patch via > > email) received from them. > > > > I think the reason the 9front repo is continuing to stay split "off" > > is because the bell-labs servers have all been shut down. As a result > > the community has stepped in to donate their own time, money, server > > resources, sweat and blood, etc. to keep a usable plan 9 version and > > community (that is willing to stay patches) alive. > > > > It is extremely unfortunate, but the pressure behind the freely > > contributed code ended up being stronger than the ability to negotiate > > with the empty halls of bell-labs. So as a result lots of community > > members are able to contribute quite effectively. > > > > To me the legend of what must have been the unix room will always stay > > alive, and I will continue to use it as a benchmark to measure my own > > team's success against. But if I cannot be part of the group of cool > > kids that came out of this, I can at least have my own bell-labs, with > > blackjack and hookers. In my head. > > > > Don, I wish you great technical collaborations. At least this is what > > I have came here for, and have tried to take what caused awe in me and > > keep them alive and infect others with all that. Maybe you can submit > > another patch to sources some day soon. > > > > hiro -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T42f11e0265bcfa18-Mfc3183bd725c8fe0c49db1b0 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
Quoth Don Bailey : > Direction comes from people writing code... but you write code for 9front, > yes? What does that have to do with mainline Plan 9? And what does that > have to do with the direction set forth by the people that actually > designed it? > I'm not sure I understand the point of your question; I work on 9front. There's nothing that qualifies as a mainline Plan 9 since the lights turned off at Bell Labs almost a decade ago; there are just forks like 9legacy and 9front. The people that actually designed it stopped setting direction years before Bell Labs shut down. As a member of the Plan 9 Foundation, I would like to see other people pick up other Plan 9 distributions, and take them in other directions. As far as I can tell, that involves code being written and shared. > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024 at 7:20 AM wrote: > > > This email suffers from a lack of semicolons; > > > > Bell labs is extremely dead at this point, and > > direction comes from people writing code; once > > the work begins, people are sometimes willing to > > help -- but only once work begins. > > > > Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > > > Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly > > aware of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of > > distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is > > undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 > > Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance > > our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 > > Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for > > innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared > > passions and expertise. > > > > > > The Need for Modernization > > > > > > Technological Evolution: > > > We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's > > last iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, > > it's essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest > > advancements in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This > > evolution is crucial to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in > > our modern tech toolkit. > > > > > > Security Enhancements: > > > In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a > > reality we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include > > cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique > > work we do from emerging cyber risks. > > > > > > Hardware Compatibility: > > > The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for > > us. Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only > > preserving its usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of > > computing, something we, as 9fans, have always embraced. > > > > > > Fostering Innovation > > > > > > Research and Education: > > > Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has > > always been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release > > would re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for > > continued exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can > > achieve with Plan 9. > > > > > > Community Engagement: > > > A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an > > opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a > > richer ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 > > Release 5 could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new > > collaborations and innovations. > > > > > > Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential: > > > Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's > > capabilities, especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, > > and distributed systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability > > and forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. > > > > > > Practical Considerations > > > > > > Resource Allocation: > > > We understand the importance of efficient resource management in > > bringing Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our > > collective knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly > > exploring new partnerships or funding avenues. > > > > > > Backward Compatibility: > > > Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work > > and ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while > > charting a course for its future. > > > > > > Documentation and Support: > > > Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this > > new release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that > > will aid in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a > > tool we can all be proud of. > > > > > > Conclusion > > > > > > The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; > > it’s a reaffirmation
Re: Charting the Future: Envisioning Plan 9 Release 5 for the 9fans Community. [Was:Re: [9fans] Supported Notebooks]
This email suffers from a lack of semicolons; Bell labs is extremely dead at this point, and direction comes from people writing code; once the work begins, people are sometimes willing to help -- but only once work begins. Quoth vic.thac...@fastmail.fm: > Dear 9fans, as enthusiasts and experts of Plan 9, you are undoubtedly aware > of the unique position this operating system holds in the world of > distributed computing. Its influence on modern computing paradigms is > undeniable. In the spirit of continuing this legacy, the prospect of Plan 9 > Release 5 beckons, offering a pathway to not just preserve but also enhance > our beloved system. This essay aims to articulate the rationale for Plan 9 > Release 5, focusing on the need for modernization, the potential for > innovation, and the practical considerations that align with our shared > passions and expertise. > > The Need for Modernization > > Technological Evolution: > We've all witnessed the dramatic shifts in technology since Plan 9's last > iteration. To keep Plan 9 at the forefront of utility and innovation, it's > essential to adapt and update our system in line with the latest advancements > in hardware, networking, and programming languages. This evolution is crucial > to ensure that Plan 9 remains an indispensable tool in our modern tech > toolkit. > > Security Enhancements: > In our ever-connected world, the sophistication of cyber threats is a reality > we cannot ignore. It is imperative that Plan 9 evolves to include > cutting-edge security protocols, safeguarding our systems and the unique work > we do from emerging cyber risks. > > Hardware Compatibility: > The advent of new hardware architectures is an exciting challenge for us. > Updating Plan 9 to support these new platforms means not only preserving its > usability but also expanding our horizons to new forms of computing, > something we, as 9fans, have always embraced. > > Fostering Innovation > > Research and Education: > Plan 9’s novel approach to system design and distributed computing has always > been a beacon for academic research and education. A new release would > re-energize our academic endeavors, offering a modern platform for continued > exploration and learning, pushing the boundaries of what we can achieve with > Plan 9. > > Community Engagement: > A new version of Plan 9 stands to reinvigorate our community. This is an > opportunity to deepen our engagement, attract new talent, and foster a richer > ecosystem around our shared passion. The development of Plan 9 Release 5 > could be a rallying point for our community, sparking new collaborations and > innovations. > > Showcasing Plan 9’s Potential: > Plan 9 Release 5 would be a powerful statement of our system's capabilities, > especially in burgeoning fields like cloud computing, IoT, and distributed > systems. This is our chance to demonstrate the adaptability and > forward-thinking design of Plan 9 to the wider world. > > Practical Considerations > > Resource Allocation: > We understand the importance of efficient resource management in bringing > Plan 9 Release 5 to fruition. This means tapping into our collective > knowledge, drawing on community contributions, and possibly exploring new > partnerships or funding avenues. > > Backward Compatibility: > Maintaining backward compatibility is essential to honor our past work and > ensure a smooth transition. We must respect the legacy of Plan 9 while > charting a course for its future. > > Documentation and Support: > Enhanced documentation and support are crucial for the success of this new > release. As a community, we can collaborate to create resources that will aid > in adoption and usability, ensuring Plan 9 Release 5 becomes a tool we can > all be proud of. > > Conclusion > > The creation of Plan 9 Release 5 is more than a technological update; it’s a > reaffirmation of our commitment to a system that has long been at the > vanguard of computing innovation. This initiative is a step towards ensuring > Plan 9's continued relevance, security, and functionality in the modern era. > It's an opportunity to broaden its impact in the realms of research, > education, and beyond. As 9fans, we have the passion, the knowledge, and the > community to make this a reality, honoring the legacy of Plan 9 while shaping > its future. Let's embark on this journey together, shaping the next chapter > in the Plan 9 story. > > > Thank you for dedicating your time and attention. > --vic > > On Thu, Jan 25, 2024, at 05:48, Jacob Moody wrote: > > On 1/24/24 14:28, Michael Grunditz wrote: > >> I have looked at the reform code and I like how it is done. I think that > >> it would be easy to use for porting 9legacy or in fact any system. But it > >> is more work than a recompile. > >> > >> Michael > > > > It is certainly not drag and drop. Getting the arm64 compiler and > > linker working on > > 9legacy is
Re: [9fans] IWP9 10th Edition
This probably should have been mentioned earlier -- while it'd be better to have presentations in person, we'd be happy to take remote presentations too. On Tue, 9 Jan 2024 11:53:04 -0800, Skip Tavakkolian wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Paper submission deadline is coming up fast. We understand that some > may be hesitant to submit papers or WIPs for various reasons. If you > have any questions or concerns that are holding you back, please > contact us. We are also planning to provide a help session (Google > Meet) to answer questions and give feedback. You can use the > addresses provided for paper and WIP submissions at > https://www.iwp9.org to ask questions or get information about the > help session. > > Thanks, > -Skip > > > On Wed, Nov 15, 2023 at 2:03 PM Brian L. Stuart > wrote: > > > > The Plan 9 Foundation and the Workshop Program Committee are > > pleased to invite participation in the 10th International > > Workshop on Plan 9. This event will take place April 12-14, > > 2024 on the campus of Drexel University in Philadelphia. We > > invite submission of papers, works in progress (WiPs), and > > workshop proposals. Everyone interested in Plan 9 and > > related technologies is encouraged to attend. > > > > To assist in your planning, a few key dates include: > > January 30, 2024: Submission Deadline > > March 10, 2024: Preferred Registration Deadline (later > > registrations will be accepted) > > April 12-14, 2024: The Workshop > > We will be following up with details on hotels. > > > > For complete details, see the Call for Papers at: > > > > https://www.cs.drexel.edu/~bls96/iwp9_2024_cfp.pdf > > > > A special note on scheduling: the workshop falls on the > > weekend following the upcoming total solar eclipse on April > > 8, 2024. Although we will not have totality in Philadelphia, > > the path of totality is reachable from Philadelphia in less > > than a day's driving time. So take advantage of the > > scheduling to experience both one of nature's most amazing > > events and discussions of computing's most amazing operating > > system. > > > > Brian L. Stuart > > IWP9 Program Committee -- Ori Bernstein -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tfe83e4e703ab52ec-Mb972698f1c47a1410e1876ae Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Expired certificate
Anthony (a...@9srv.net) updated it; thanks for the report. Quoth Kim Shrier : > I noticed that the certificate for p9f.org expired on December 19. > > Also, trying to send an email to webmas...@p9f.org fails with > the following error. > > : host aspmx.l.google.com[142.250.113.27] said: 550-5.1.1 >The email account that you tried to reach does not exist. Please try >550-5.1.1 double-checking the recipient's email address for typos or >550-5.1.1 unnecessary spaces. For more information, go to 550 5.1.1 >https://support.google.com/mail/?p=NoSuchUser >by7-20020a056830608700b006dc2a52b5fesi1870728otb.254 - gsmtp (in reply to >RCPT TO command) > Reporting-MTA: dns; mail.westryn.net > X-Postfix-Queue-ID: 344849431E5 > X-Postfix-Sender: rfc822; k...@westryn.net > Arrival-Date: Sun, 31 Dec 2023 17:08:09 -0700 (MST) > > Final-Recipient: rfc822; webmas...@p9f.org > Original-Recipient: rfc822;webmas...@p9f.org > Action: failed > Status: 5.1.1 > Remote-MTA: dns; aspmx.l.google.com > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550-5.1.1 The email account that you tried to reach > does >not exist. Please try 550-5.1.1 double-checking the recipient's email >address for typos or 550-5.1.1 unnecessary spaces. For more information, go >to 550 5.1.1 https://support.google.com/mail/?p=NoSuchUser >by7-20020a056830608700b006dc2a52b5fesi1870728otb.254 - gsmtp > -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T63a859e8d093b2ab-Ma91172de85947bbc0ddc813e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] I did bad things and 9front won't boot
At a guess, you tried to run something like: mount /dev/sdXX/cache which will try to negotiate a version with your raw disk data, and write a Tversion message to the first block of your disk. You want to mount the 9p service which lives in /srv/cwfs. You can probably either write it back manually, or using the fs recovery console, documented (er, kinda) in fsconfig(8). For reference, the fsconfig should look like: filsys main c(/dev/sdN0/fscache)(/dev/sdN0/fsworm) filsys dump o filsys other (/dev/sdN0/other) noauth newcache blocksize 16384 daddrbits 64 indirblks 4 dirblks 6 namelen 144 cpu% read -c 1024 /dev/sdN0/fscache service cwfs filsys main c(/dev/sdN0/fscache)(/dev/sdN0/fsworm) filsys dump o filsys other (/dev/sdN0/other) noauth newcache blocksize 16384 daddrbits 64 indirblks 4 dirblks 6 namelen 144 Quoth o...@o5r.ca : > Hello, > > I seem to have done incredibly stupid things to my 9front instance and now on > boot I get "panic: unknown keyword in config block: ", > followed by a "mount: sys: write on closed pipe pc=0x2008c6" and "mount > /srv/boot /root: mount 185: sys: write on closed pipe pc=0x2008c6”. > > At this point I did try to drop into a shell, but I can’t figure out from > there how I can mount my filesystem (that I can see in the list of things > under /dev/sdE0/fsmain). > > By now I’ve also figured out that the panic is happening “here”, in the > mergeconf function: > http://git.9front.org/plan9front/plan9front/858893ff8ff8d3abd06742276bcb794f3422bab8/sys/src/cmd/cwfs/config.c/f.html > > Is there a way for me to rewrite the config block to sensible defaults by > dropping into a shell and/or using a usb drive w/ 9front on it (as if doing > an install) to just backstep whatever terrible thing I performed accidentally? > > Thanks, > > Olivier -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T110553196be52532-Mea1e17036a202917e1169d92 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] IWP9 2024: EventBrite Link
Also, if you want to register via email, we'll accept that too with cash at the door; up to you how you do it. Quoth o...@eigenstate.org: > We recently updated the website to include an eventbrite > event registration page: > > https://www.eventbrite.com/e/iwp9-2024-tickets-776349160237 > > Note, this year there will be a registration fee of $50 > USD in order to attend; if that feels steep, we also > have a discount code 'BROKESTUDENT' that will drop it > to $20. Feel free to use it even if you're not a > student. > > The money will go toward the following things: > > 1. T-Shirt printing > 2. Coffee and small snacks for attendees > 3. (TBD) Possible booking fees for a social event > 3. Any leftover will go towards next years IWP9 > > Finally, just a reminder, you've got 2 months to put > together papers, WIPs, and ideas. You pick how much > time you need -- Lightning talks are welcome and > encouraged for WIPs, incomplete work, and half-baked > -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tdbabccaceb070d03-M3c22dc6b2c584bced220f5b9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] IWP9 2024: EventBrite Link
(Apologies about the other message, sent it a bit too early) Also, if you want to register via email, we'll still be accepting that. Quoth o...@eigenstate.org: > We recently updated the website to include an eventbrite > event registration page: > > https://www.eventbrite.com/e/iwp9-2024-tickets-776349160237 > > Note, this year there will be a registration fee of $50 > USD in order to attend; if that feels steep, we also > have a discount code 'BROKESTUDENT' that will drop it > to $20. Feel free to use it even if you're not a > student. > > The money will go toward the following things: > > 1. T-Shirt printing > 2. Coffee and small snacks for attendees > 3. (TBD) Possible booking fees for a social event > 3. Any leftover will go towards next years IWP9 > > Finally, just a reminder, you've got 2 months to put > together papers, WIPs, and ideas. You pick how much > time you need -- Lightning talks are welcome and > encouraged for WIPs, incomplete work, and half-baked > -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tdbabccaceb070d03-M18b31f0168380585dd112a4e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] IWP9 2024: EventBrite Link
We recently updated the website to include an eventbrite event registration page: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/iwp9-2024-tickets-776349160237 Note, this year there will be a registration fee of $50 USD in order to attend; if that feels steep, we also have a discount code 'BROKESTUDENT' that will drop it to $20. Feel free to use it even if you're not a student. The money will go toward the following things: 1. T-Shirt printing 2. Coffee and small snacks for attendees 3. (TBD) Possible booking fees for a social event 3. Any leftover will go towards next years IWP9 Finally, just a reminder, you've got 2 months to put together papers, WIPs, and ideas. You pick how much time you need -- Lightning talks are welcome and encouraged for WIPs, incomplete work, and half-baked -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tdbabccaceb070d03-M4a58154de06e0611df333a21 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] IWP9 2024: EventBrite Link
We recently updated the website to include an eventbrite event registration page: https://www.eventbrite.com/e/iwp9-2024-tickets-776349160237 Note, this year there will be a registration fee of $40 USD in order to attend; if that feels steep, we also have a discount code 'BROKESTUDENT' that will drop it to $20. Feel free to use it even if you're not a student. The money will go toward the following things: 1. T-Shirt printing 2. Coffee and small snacks for attendees 3. (TBD) Possible booking fees for a social event 3. Any leftover will go towards next years IWP9 Finally, just a reminder, you've got 2 months to put together papers, WIPs, and ideas. You pick how much time you need -- Lightning talks are welcome and encouraged for WIPs, incomplete work, and half-baked -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T32f569d7713ecdba-Ma306b0367a57c6a8c6fcadb2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] 9front: fossil broken in Humanbiologics rel.
Just tested using this script: #!/bin/rc fossil/flfmt $1 fossil/conf -w $1 < Till I upgraded my 9front I was using a fossil server (from9legacy) on my > 9front FreeBSD Bhyve system, probably 9front release Emailschaden. > > Now it doesn't work anymore. Remaking the programs did not help either. The > fossil server now hangs immediately after start. Neither file nor console > service nodes are created. > > Are there any other users of this combi? -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tac8d983292c826c1-M46c996472dad8a7ddc13844c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] 9front: fossil broken in Humanbiologics rel.
Interesting, and not expected; Can you get a stack trace from the Fossil process? Quoth wb.kl...@gmail.com: > Till I upgraded my 9front I was using a fossil server (from9legacy) on my > 9front FreeBSD Bhyve system, probably 9front release Emailschaden. > > Now it doesn't work anymore. Remaking the programs did not help either. The > fossil server now hangs immediately after start. Neither file nor console > service nodes are created. > > Are there any other users of this combi? -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tac8d983292c826c1-Ma52345b8b081a185ba28ab3b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] 9front: fossil broken in Humanbiologics rel.
Interesting, and not expected; Can you get a stack trace from the Fossil process? Quoth wb.kl...@gmail.com: > Till I upgraded my 9front I was using a fossil server (from9legacy) on my > 9front FreeBSD Bhyve system, probably 9front release Emailschaden. > > Now it doesn't work anymore. Remaking the programs did not help either. The > fossil server now hangs immediately after start. Neither file nor console > service nodes are created. > > Are there any other users of this combi? -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tac8d983292c826c1-M0dfbd7ec71f7e420558b74c2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] odd rwakeup qunlock behaviour in 9vx
A complete snippet to reproduce this may be useful. That
said, I have code that uses qlock and rendez heavily with
no sleeps, and have not had any issues on 9front.
Quoth ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>:
> I have a function chan_send in which :
> chan_send (...) {
> qlock()
> rwakeup(...)
> qunlock()
> }
>
> If two such chan_send functions are called without a "task-switch" 9vx
> crashes. A work around for this problem is to place a sleep(0) after qunlock
> to enforce a task-switch
>
> chan_send(...) {
> qlock()
> rwakeup(...)
> qunlock()
> sleep(0)
> }
>
> This behaviour isn't documented anywhere. I'll test it next on bare metal
> with a real kernel to find out if this is only a 9vx problem.
>
--
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Re: [9fans] iwp9 paper submission ?
Quoth Edouard Klein : > Dear 9fans, > > I tried emailing an abstract to all iwp9*@iwp9.org addresses, but got a > email delivery failure notification back. > > Do anybody know where we stand on the workshop organization ? Is there > anything I could do to help ? > > Cheers, > > Edouard. Short summary -- we're working on it. It's likely to be at a different location than we had initially announced. We're waiting to confirm before we put out the call for papers and specific dates. It will be happening. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T2cf2f3b242100bba-Mf2504a368ef4b7ff0eb4f26b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] htmlroff -ms footnotes
Quoth a...@9srv.net: > Working on a little one-page report, I noticed htmlroff wasn't > outputing my footnotes. Looking at the papers in /sys/doc, it > seems htmlroff produces them properly when they're in the > abstract, but not in the main body. > > Anybody looked at this or know why? no, but do you have an example to reproduce it? -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T530822947a31ba06-M99ab62c023197f18c8a955a9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] fd and /srv filesystem
Quoth Chris McGee : > Hi All, > > I was thinking about file descriptors in the context of Plan 9. On Unix an > fd is generally only usable by the current process, and child ones through > a fork with some special incantation if one wants to communicate one over a > domain socket. This is possibly for security reasons, avoiding other users' > processes from trying to guess the fd of a critical file. > > It's common practice in Plan 9 to post an fd (sometimes via a pipe) from > one process to the /srv filesystem so that others can discover it and open > a comms channel. Does the kernel transform the fd into something when > posted to /srv so that it can be consumed by any other process in the > system? > > Thanks, > Chris > it's all just Chans in the kernel; devsrv just provides a way of giving an open chan a name in the namespace. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tfaa2554a9b74c479-Mfaf45bf1e56e90cf94f97cb8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Problem with outputing from kernel
Quoth dusan3...@gmail.com: > I added some logs in /sys/src/9/port/proc.c for some tests of the scheduler, > I want to see at what moments do real time processes take the cpu. I did that > with simple prints with the intention of doing cat /dev/kmesg > someFile > because all the prints are stored there. > > The problem is that the flow of output just randomly stops at times and > continues(only once by test) and i lose some of the output which is really > important. Any ideas why? are you printing from an interrupt context? use iprint for that. also, are you looking for trace(1)? we ship with a tool for showing scheduler decisions. > > Also I was doing with tail -f /dev/kmesg in the background and without that > /dev/kmesg loses the start of output up to some random moment where it shows > it. Could the problem be that i have too many outputs? that's what tail *does*. It shows the tail (by default, last 10 lines) of the file. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T31db04ef89737d25-M5f99acee5813b799ce86afe6 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] problem with factotum
Quoth Iban Nieto : > @skip I've performed the entire procedure in the same namespace and in > another ns by using line per line commands in the console and using scripts, > all with the same luck. Also /srv/factotum is in place in my namespace as I > have auth/factotum in my $home/lib/profile. is the namespace you're running the web server in using that factotum? by default, aux/listen runs as none in a new namespace. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te82df98419e38504-M87ca5928a29a01a7ebda6ac6 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] 9Legacy status
Quoth Don Bailey : > Hi All, > > Just curious if 9Legacy is considered the right place to submit modern > patches? Is that kind of the 'go to' repository for modern > patches/improvements to the 'mainline' Bell Labs distro? > > Thanks, > D my personal preference would be to just post them on this list; it's sufficiently low volume at the moment. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T53b730e0213e9325-M7f62cb596cfa2cda85ed00ab Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] print() in kernel space doesn't work like I would think
Quoth dusan3...@gmail.com: > Isn't windowing handled like a realtime process? > Does it not start any realtime process at boot? > I can see that being the problem here. also, real time isn't a synonym for high priority; it's saying that the OS *must* be able to run the process at the specified times, and erroring when starting the process is preferred if the OS can't guarantee it has the resources. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te1d00dae663114b2-M75899828ae3fbea192ac248b Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] print() in kernel space doesn't work like I would think
Quoth dusan3...@gmail.com: > > if you don't see this print, you're somehow > running the wrong kernel. > I can see that. > > > this one won't print until you start using > the edf scheduler. > Isn't windowing handled like a realtime process? Does it not start any > realtime process at boot? I can see that being the problem here. no. currently, no hard deadlines are set for any code shipped with the system; the realtime subsystem is generally not used. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te1d00dae663114b2-M3fc8ade6a994541aafd5c68e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] print() in kernel space doesn't work like I would think
Quoth dusan3...@gmail.com:
> + print("\nPlan 69\n");
if you don't see this print, you're somehow
running the wrong kernel.
> + print("NESTO");
this one won't print until you start using
the edf scheduler.
--
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Re: [9fans] print() in kernel space doesn't work like I would think
Quoth o...@eigenstate.org: > > show your diff. > > (hint: bind -ac /dist/plan9front / && git/diff /sys/src/9 | webpaste) also, the steps you used to install and boot the new kernel. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te1d00dae663114b2-Mfb97c091f91a95eef8849f06 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] print() in kernel space doesn't work like I would think
Quoth dusan3...@gmail.com:
> I was editing plan9's realtime scheduler in /sys/src/9/port/edf.c and was
> trying to add a print to log something, but print didn't show anywhere(or I
> am looking at the wrong place). It has some prints in source code already,
> with this define.
> #define DPRINT if(Dontprint){}else print
> And with Dontprint set to 0
>
> I was expecting the output to be at boot time, in boot screen where it asks
> for bootargs, but it wasn't there. I thought it was either the wrong place I
> am looking at or it prints after I start the gui so I don't get to see it.
>
> Then i tried other prints, iprint() seemed really cool and usefull but it
> does nothing. It builds ok, but doesn't output anything on serial (on Qemu
> serial window). Also, it didn't work in some user space program I made to
> test it.
>
> All I want is to have a normal log system so I can log things on screen.
show your diff.
(hint: bind -ac /dist/plan9front / && git/diff /sys/src/9 | webpaste)
--
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Re: [9fans] /dev/realtime doesn't exist?
Quoth dusan3...@gmail.com: > I was reading an article about plan9's realtime scheduler edf > (http://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/real_time/real_time_in_a_real_operating_system/real_time_in_a_real_operating_system.pdf, > page 7), and they mentioned using /dev/realtime to create realtime > processes, but /dev/realtime doesn't exist on my machine (I am using 9front). > I found a post here from 07 saying something about removing it a long time > ago, but it got no answers. > > In proc(3) they mention some commands for configuring realtime processes but > I don't know if that is to configure an already made realtime process or to > make one from a regular. How do i make realtime processes in these days? it's the bits you found in /proc; there are no (longer?) any special real time processes; any process can become real time by setting up deadlines at any point. /dev/realtime isn't needed any more. unfortunately, I'm not aware of any programs using it. (that may be a good question for the list: where was the real time scheduler used, and does any code using it survive?) -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Td0e7a4f73d1eae3b-Mef6952cc77b2f18134fbaf66 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support
Quoth dusan3...@gmail.com: > I finally read the article about asking questions, sorry if i was being rude > or was waisting your time, wasn't my intention. people wrote documentation for a reason; sometimes the documentation is confusing, insufficient, or you didn't know the right keyword to look up so you could help yourself; that's ok. but you need to at least try, and give enough information on how you tried so that you can be pointed in the right direction. > And about the multi-core support, well I kinda moved away from it since I > don't really need it, I was just wondering if i can disable it in an easy way > for the measurement I am doing yes; from the plan9.ini manpage, where most boot options are documented: *nomp= A multiprocessor machine will enable all processors by default. Setting *nomp restricts the kernel to starting only one processor and using the traditional interrupt con- troller. Editing 9fat should be covered in the FQA, in section 7.2: https://fqa.9front.org/fqa7.html -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T912e4838cb1a371f-M1c8a186c7dd54274a68eac57 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Plan9 multi-core support
Quoth dusan3...@gmail.com: > Does plan9 have multi-core support? If it does, how does it manage it (what > files/man pages/docs do I read). If it doesn't have, how would I implement > it. read: https://doc.cat-v.org/plan_9/4th_edition/papers/9 and once again, read: https://www.mikeash.com/getting_answers.html (hint: multiprocessor means the same thing as multicore) > If it doesn't have, how would I implement it. it already has it, but if it didn't -- were incapable of finding out if we have multicore support, what makes you would be able to implement it? -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T912e4838cb1a371f-M03de6b74bc9962920c191ea8 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Using 9front as a server
Quoth dusan3...@gmail.com: > I want to use my 9front booted from QEMU as a server, so i can transfer files > from linux to 9front, but it wont open any ports. Help https://www.mikeash.com/getting_answers.html -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T1eb6489031b3e452-Mb3bcdf116284c0b3de40581c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] plan9 in 2023 - which edition, fork, distro and what host
Quoth will.s...@gmail.com: > Well, it's time for my every handful of years dive into plan 9. In 2023, > what's the best (most current) source for the distro and is it best practice > to install it on hardware (RPI or other) or in a VM (which)? I'd like the > mouse to work and the network... As unflakily as possible . > > Will 9front. For hardware, I'd suggest 9front on an old thinkpad. Most seem to like x230s, but personally I run an x260. I have the wifi swapped out for a Centrino 6235, which gets me to a usable-but-not-fast, 500k/sec; good enough for sitting down at a coffee shop to do some hacking. I also have a way-overkill CPU server, Ryzen 7 on an X570 chipset, and an Intel 82599 10 gbit nic plugged in. The main reason for the overkill box is that I wanted something with a bunch of slots for nvme and hard drives. And because fast machines are fun. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9061cdf46ee69cdb-Mc8d53695f62b8ea90e1d7e2e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] programs from UNI*x
On Fri, 30 Jun 2023 11:26:09 +0100, Conor Williams wrote: > https://conorwilliams.in/nh4.png > > now looking in win?? /c early friday yay lie in 2morow > sysupdate; it's been added as of commit 5664fb3540ae0dccec628720574520122193ab1b, on Fri Mar 17 16:24:30 -0400 2023 -- Ori Bernstein -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e60a159b1280462-M61eca930eceb2f2e8fc65899 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] programs from UNI*x
Quoth Luis : > > 9front has a mix emulator (games/mix), but what about mmix, has anyone > considered porting that? Perhaps the effort required would be too > large, though. > you won't know until you try -- but it's a CPU instruction set, those are rarely hard to write. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T3e60a159b1280462-M97e6dba3799d73a7c49133d2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Any material on processes?
Quoth dusan3...@gmail.com: > I want to look into process management and how a scheduler works and thing > like that, but all I can find is inter-process communication with 9P and the > rest is all just file systems. Any help? look at: man 9 sched and % g '^sched' /sys/src/9/port /sys/src/9/port/proc.c:66: schedinit(void) /* never returns */ /sys/src/9/port/proc.c:166: sched(void) 'up' is a global variable for the current 'user proc'. 'm' is a "cpu-local" global variable for the current Mach struct. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T0435dff1125b5a83-M998d685afbdbb38730a8e630 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] How do I build from source on linux?
Quoth dusan3...@gmail.com: > I find the system interesting, but I don't seem to be really productive with > it. I mean i just started using it (as you have already figured out) and I am > struggling a bit but it seems a lot of fun. it's worth taking some time to learn, rather than giving up at the first thing that doesn't do things the way you're used to. learning always involves a bit of struggle around new concepts, ideas, and ways of working. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5b2523de4ef223e9-Mc824e9b890aac087494e53c9 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] How do I build from source on linux?
Quoth dusan3...@gmail.com: > How do I export the files from Linux to qemu? use drawterm to log in, mount/bind from /mnt/term, or use sshfs or 9pfs or nfs or smfs or ftpfs or one of the other remote file systems to mount the remote files. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5b2523de4ef223e9-Mbbf744497516fdc7cf9da280 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] How do I build from source on linux?
Quoth dusan3...@gmail.com: > I run 9front with QEMU and i want to make some changes to it from source and > than build it and run it on qemu. How do I build it on linux with no mk? you don't. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T5b2523de4ef223e9-M86b2952cff6a063c8b91db13 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] access files from 9front to Linux on the same laptop (2 harddrives).
Quoth pl...@room3420.net: > > Hello :) > > Let's say I have 2 computers. > I can "sshfs" from 9front to mount the distant (Linux) folders to /n/ssh. > > Let's say now that I have 2 SSD on my laptop. > One with 9front, that boots automatically and one with > Linux, that I can occasionally select at boot with GRUB. > > Is there a way to mount the Linux partitions from 9front, to transfer files ? > > On 9front, 9front is labeled as /dev/sdE0 and Linux is /dev/sdE2. > > As I'm only testing, the Linux is not currently encrypted. > > Hope that's not a moronic question and thank you for any feedback. 2 ideas: 1. create a fat partition for shared files 2. boot the linux in vmx(1), giving it your hard disk as its drive, then serve 9p from the virtualized linux. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T094e3f9c85c36a40-M8a7eea175b825c8eb6621746 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Adjust Thinkpad Screen Brightness
Quoth zxcdew...@gmail.com: > Hi, > A newbie question: how do I automate this so it runs automatically after > boot up? man termrc cat $home/lib/profile either will work. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T4c4247ec1c0429f6-M4c38a9e3f32d88e7236b3e00 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] How to access this 9fans group from 9front?
Quoth zxcdew...@gmail.com: > Hi > I tried mothra, but it cannot open this website. > > I want to post new topic here using 9front. How? > > Thanks! register to the mailing list, then send an email. (sent from 9front, using upas and acme/Mail) -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te4c74291535d737f-Macabccf87155ba2c59136420 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Adjust Thinkpad Screen Brightness
Quoth zxcdew...@gmail.com:
> Hi
>
> Is there anyway to adjust my laptop's (T440P) screen brightness?
>
> Thanks!
not nicely integrated. Depending on your card, something like
this may work:
#!/bin/rc
# SBLC_PWM_CTL2: bytes 15:0, range 0 (off) to v>>16 (full)
if(! ~ $#* 1){
echo usage: $0 factor
exit 'usage'
}
echo -n type igfx > /dev/vgactl
v=`{seg -Lr igfxmmio 0x40 0xc8254}
if(~ $#v 0)
exit 'no such named segment'
v=`{echo 'v='$v'; v & ~0x | ((v>>16) / '$1')' | pc -n}
if(! ~ $#v 1)
exit 'invalid factor'
sleep 0.1
seg -Lw igfxmmio 0x40 0xc8254 $v
You'll have to figure out where the backlight PWM register is
on your model of video card if this doesn't just work out of
the box.
--
9fans: 9fans
Permalink:
https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T4c4247ec1c0429f6-Mc5341681965ce6a9c895bf53
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[9fans] Schedule
Apologies for the late mailing. Here's the schedule for iwp9: Fri 21 Apr -- 10:00 am Welcome and Introduction * Session 1: Security * 10:30 am Edouard Klein: Dr Glendarme or: How I Learned to Stop Kerberos and Love Factotum 11:15 am Jacob Moody: Namespaces as Security Domains 12:00 pm Lunch * Session 2: Storage * 1:30 pm Emil Tsalapatis, Ryan Hancock and Ali Jose Mashtizadeh: A 9P Server for Application Management in Single Level Stores: A Status Report 2:15 pm Ori Bernstein: GEFS, A Good Enough File System 3:00 pm Break * Session 3: Hardware Ports * 3:45 pm Andrew D. Gibson: MIPS Rides Again 4:30 pm Geoff Collyer: Plan 9 on 64-bit RISC-V Sat 22 Apr -- * Session 4: Freezing, Snapping and Ghosting * 10:00 am David Boddie: Hell Freezes Over: Freezing Limbo modules to reduce Inferno’s memory footprint 10:45 am Brian L Stuart: An O(1) Method for Storage Snapshots 11:30 am Noam Preil and Sigrid: Ghostbusters 12:15 pm Lunch Afternoon: Time for discussions/hacking/etc. Sun 23 Apr -- * Session 5: Application, Education, Optimization * 10:00 am Jonas Amoson: Porting the Netsurf web browser to Plan 9 10:45 am Brian L Stuart: Plan 9 and Inferno Go to School 11:30 am Eli Cohen: NinePea - A Small 9P Library for Arduino and Plan 9 12:15 pm Lunch Afternoon: Time for discussions/hacking/etc. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9007e554721c6930-M01f43cb579756222ec531a7f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] iwp9 streaming link
tomorrow starting at 10 am, we'll be streaming to: https://bsdtv-player.secdn.net/theatre/c726dda9-ffb0-4afa-bf71-55cfc9ab7b67 For speaker questions, join #plan9 on irc.libera.chat, we'll be watching the stream and relaying questions. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T1ee6b5d4fa6a618e-M8f156c35f1036a9c99b5944d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Wifi Firmware "does not exist", but it does.
Quoth Yury Chumak : > сб, 8 апр. 2023 г. в 19:16, Ravi Raj : > > > > Hi > > > > First command yields some sort of fingerprint. > > Second command yields no output. > > > > Thanks > > rraj > > 9fans / 9fans / see discussions + participants + delivery options Permalink > If output of second command empty then addition firmware was not > applied and kernel doesn't see any firmware. Try to compile kernel not > with single command "mk install" and sequentially: > mk clean > mk > mk install > After finish reboot system (maybe twice). After reboot check /lib/firmware > > > this is missing copying the kernel to 9fat. Read section 7.2.5 in the FQA. https://fqa.9front.org/fqa7.html#7.2.5 -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T9b33abcfc0b8784b-M76055049a98341a6535b597a Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] iwp9 shirts: apr 5 deadline
Hi, We're going to get the shirts for iwp9 printed soon. If you didn't register yet, you'll need to register before Apr 5 in order to get a shirt. Include your shirt size when you register. If you already registered, but didn't send in your shirt size, you'll need to get the shirt size to me by Apr 5th. If you are not attending or otherwise involved, you don't get a shirt. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T6753621403d289d0-Mf6a0bbf508bb82c274817c79 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] iwp9: papers announced
The accepted papers are up on the website: http://iwp9.org/ For convenience, I'll repeat the list here: - Porting the Netsurf web browser to Plan 9, Jonas Amoson - GEFS, A Good Enough File System, Ori Bernstein ? - Hell Freezes Over: Freezing Limbo modules to reduce Inferno's memory footprint David Boddie - NinePea: A Small 9P Library for Arduino and Plan 9 Eli Cohen - Plan 9 on 64-bit RISC-V Geoff Collyer - MIPS Rides Again Andrew D. Gibson - Dr Glendarme or: How I Learned to Stop Kerberos and Love Factotum Eduoard Klein - Namespaces as Security Domains Jacob Moody - Ghostbusters Noam Preil and Sigrid - An O(1) Method for Storage Snapshots Brian L Stuart - Plan 9 and Inferno Go to School Brian L Stuart -A 9P Server for Application Management in Single Level Stores: A Status Report Emil Tsalapatis, Ryan Hancock and Ali Jos� Mashtizadeh -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Te64af09b059a64f7-M77b9297a0ef36fe5687dd721 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] iwp9: call for papers
Quick status update: We're working on getting all the papers reviewed, and running a bit late. The list should be out soon. Thanks for your patience. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcb1e8931f4fed60b-M58e0e71203cb41b61c199b2f Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Error when trying to install contrib/install
Quoth Alex Musolino : > The new test(1) in 9front passes the following test suite, which is > mostly stolen from something the OpenBSD folks had used to test their > own test(1) program: > > http://git.9front.org/plan9front/regress/717df14acac498bfb4496066a60c1ae83e93d9b7/cmd/test.rc/f.html > quick note -- the regression tests are moving into the 9front repo, instead of living on their own; https://git.9front.org/plan9front/plan9front/HEAD/sys/src/cmd/test/test.rc/f.html so, 'mk test' should test it out of the box. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T23b7964cf6e8776e-Mb7e3026445d325472c627a99 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] iwp9: call for papers
Quoth Marshall Conover : > > Will this iwp9 be filmed? I'd love it if someone volunteered to film, but I'm not currently aware of anyone with equipment and a desire to do the editing and upload. Anyone feel like stepping up to do this? -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcb1e8931f4fed60b-M4d9441cc849b517c2d945d6c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] applying a patch on 9front
Quoth jimeric...@gmail.com: > thank you kindly chris gorman! i got the patch to apply and got it to connect > at boot. but when it connects rio wont start. when it doesn't connect rio > starts. not sure what to do. there's nowhere near enough information to help you; you'll need to be more specific. read: https://www.mikeash.com/getting_answers.html -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T7978718c750df254-M19a47f412f6816fe91d324f4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] iwp9: call for papers
Quoth o...@eigenstate.org: > Call for Papers > --- > > Jan 30: Paper submission deadline > Jan 30: Proposals for hackathons and tutorials deadline > Feb 13: Paper acceptance notification > Feb 27: Works in progress submission deadline > Mar 6: WIP acceptance notification > Mar 10: Registration deadline > Mar 13: Camera ready version > April 21-23: Workshop We've gotten a bunch of submissions, but there are several people who have asked for more time to finish up their papers. As a result, we're extending the submission deadline as follows: Feb 12, 2023: Paper submission deadline Feb 12, 2023: Proposals for hackathons and tutorials deadline Feb 24, 2023: Paper acceptance notification Feb 27, 2023: Works in progress submission deadline Mar 6, 2023: WIP acceptance notification Mar 10, 2023: Registration deadline Mar 13, 2023: Camera ready version April 21-23, 2023: Workshop -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcb1e8931f4fed60b-M028bcc2ab60468633d7fdc39 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] iwp9: call for papers
Quoth o...@eigenstate.org: > Hi, > > On behalf of the iwp9 organizers, I'm happy to announce that iwp9 will > be happening on April 21-23, in Waterloo, Ontario. For full, up to date > information, keep an eye on the website (https://iwp9.org). For those that have tried registering, there was a temporary issue with the mail server; if you got a bounce, please try again. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tcb1e8931f4fed60b-M1a1396d7d07f4bf5a12545b6 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] plan 9 and lisp
Quoth Lassi Kortela : > > i’m wondering what 9fans think about lisp, specifically scheme. > > Chibi-Scheme has run on Plan 9. > And more recently, Janet: https://git.sr.ht/~pixelherodev/janet -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T7b0afbefb53189b6-M5a67c34ffb0272ba0a95b097 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Modification of etheriwl.c for AC 7265 ethernet card
Quoth Chris Gorman : > Hello All, > > I needed to add a pci vid/did to etheriwl.c to get my wifi card > working. I'm sending the patch to the mailing list, but if folks know > of a better place for this info, let me know and I will re post it. > The card I have is an Intel AC-7265 and I am running 9front. typically, the 9front list is where the 9front patches go: 9fr...@9front.org; applied this one, > Now that I have my card working, I would like to have it connect at > boot. I have the following commands to run. > > bind -a '#l1' /net > echo 'key proto=wpapsk essid=ESSID !password=PASSWORD' >> /mnt/factotum/ctl > aux/wpa -2p -s ESSID /net/ether1 > ip/ipconfig ether /net/ether1 > > I was wondering where to put these commands. Should they go into > /bin/termrc or is there a more suitable place? > > Thanks in advance, > you can put it in plan9.ini, something like: ether1=type=iwl essid=ESSID wpapsk=PASSWORD -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T75cc68ba157fecd6-M0d1c0a6fbaf28e8d782c9be4 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] A few questions about 9p
Quoth ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>: > tflush is also used to interrupt pending requests in user-file-systems. And > there such a situation can happen where you can't respond to a Tflush. The > server already processed the message for noldtag and sent its reply. Now you > can't reply to a tflush with rflush cause that would mean the Tflush was > successful and you can't answer with Rerror cause the rule says that Rerror > is not allowed as a response to Tflush messages. Am I right regarding this > situation or is this a misunderstanding. You reply with an Rflush. The Tflush was successful: The Rflush does not indicate that a message was cancelled, tit indicates that the server is no longer processing the request. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T04e11fe14739da68-M44e595e13d13c770dca05d94 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] A few questions about 9p
Quoth ibrahim via 9fans <9fans@9fans.net>: > On Saturday, 5 November 2022, at 12:41 AM, ron minnich wrote: > > I'd argue that this may be the most real-world-tested Tflush handler you'll > > see. I have seen Tflush handlers that just return, having done nothing, and > > it's possible that in many cases, that's good enough. But Chris's code is > > VERY heavily tested with real workloads. > > I'm not surprised. Interrupting hardware access for a few kB and risking to > damage the filesystem wouldn't be wise. > > On Saturday, 5 November 2022, at 12:41 AM, ron minnich wrote: > > I also know, as I saw it many times, that the Plan 9 kernel Tflush could at > > times get extremely confused. When we ported it to Akaros, we even saw > > cases where Tflush would run out of control and exhaust the XID space, > > sending flush after flush as fast as it could create them. > > > > The rule : > > "Should multiple Tflushes be received for a pending request, they must be > answered in order. A Rflush for any of the multiple Tflushes implies an > answer for all previous ones. Therefore, should a server receive a request > and then multiple flushes for that request, it need respond only to the last > flush." > > and : > > "A Tflush can never be responded to by an Rerror message." > > should lead to a dead lock in this situation. Lets say the first Tflush > arrived and got responded afterwards all the other Tflushes arrive and can't > be responded This situation is impossible -- you can always respond to a Tflush. Repeated tflushes for the same tag may simply be coalesced into one response. > so all ntags used by Tflush messages after the first can't be used by the > client cause there are pending unanswered requests by the client. The server > can never respond with an Rerror to a Tflush arriving out of order after the > first Tflush got processed. Yes, it responds with an Rflush. > 1) All ntags used for Tflush after the first are considered open. 2) A server > can't even hint with an error for a Tflush with an inactive oldtag. A flush means "I don't care about the response any more". For example, cancelling the next mouse read before the mouse moves, because the graphical program is exiting. > Rerror with "error : noldtag invalid" would at least make the ntags reusable > for the client. If the client code is conforming to the rules in man(5) > Tflush messages can burn all possible ntag values (16 bit). As can any other message; this is fine, you don't want 65535 outstanding messages anwyays, most of the time. > > If 9P2000 won't change at least some changes to the effects of Tflush and > handling without breaking compatibility would be possible : > > 1) If a response to one of sent Tflush messages is made all Tflush messages > regarding oldtag are responded not only preceeding ones, cause only one > Rflush or only one response to the oldtag is allowed by the server. > > more important my suggestion : > > 2) Tflush also leads to a clunk of a fid. This lets the server decide if it > will keep the changes or revert them. Flushes are fired on interrupt, because the result of an in-flight read or write is no longer needed; Why would you want an alarm firing to close the file you're reading? that makes no sense. > Those two changes would build a "mini-transaction" enviroment : > > Topen/Tcreate > ==> starts a file transaction > > Tflush > ==> interrupt file operation for fid associated with oldtag, clunk the fid > with a rollback > > Tclunk > ==> commit changes to the file > > Tversion > ==> rollback all open changes not commited in the previous session. how would this work for file systems like kbdfs, /net, etc? your proposal doesn't work for most of the file systems shipped with plan 9. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T04e11fe14739da68-Mcfef687d4d59cc5bad0576f2 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] the practicality of plan 9
Quoth fig : > so i ask: what are ways i could make a grid really shine? through design > and/or usage, things that make a grid nice to have. i still enjoy 9front on > a single machine, and plan9port is now a must-have on my unix machines. i > know plan 9 wants a network, but why would a user want plan 9 to have a > network? if that makes any sense :^) As a single user, the biggest benefit I get is being able to rapidly test and debug, with netboot, shared binaries, and the ability to panic without losing any work, and being able to share stuff with my home machine when I'm hacking in a coffee shop (like I am now) With a group of people, being able to share servers means being able to share work. At the hackathon last summer, we had set up a CPU/file server. We were netbooting test kernels, but also sharing our work in progress, data, and documents via our home dirs, getting feedback, and even at times just editing other people's files (the file server had permissions wide open) -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Td6c4be6d8502dbd0-Mde109e6c3a6a18b64306ac1d Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Drawterm on F-Droid
Quoth sirjofri : > Hello all, > > I'm happy to inform you that Drawterm (Android) is now listed on the official > F-Droid android store. > > This means, automatically built updates, and you can get the latest version > without building yourself or asking for an apk, plus one single signed > certificate. > > Get it now: https://f-droid.org/de/packages/org.echoline.drawterm/ > > Have fun > > sirjofri > > PS: I'm currently working on an improved version with some more stable app > structure which should give us a few features and allow us to fix a few very > annoying bugs. very nice -- is there a plan to merge this with the drawterm on git.9front.org at some point? -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T61300a35947fa972-Mb0a12eb37fd69ce769180243 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] building a grid at university
Quoth fig : > but plan 9 is not, and i > don’t know how this is addressed when using a VPS. even the install process > is graphical. is kvm necessary? There are a few options. 1) Many hosts like Vultr or Ramnode provide graphical VNC consoles. 2) Graphics aren't necessary; inst/start works just fine from a serial cnnsole or text; it's just a bit painful to configure. I'm not sure which providers only give you a a text console. 3) if your host provides neither, then you maybe can install and configure an image locally, and upload it. This is how you'd do it on GCP. > i’m having a bit of trouble getting irc and usenet to ‘work’ on the school > network, It's probably blocked; try just connecting: % telnet tcp!irc.oftc.net!6667 you should rapidly see something like: connected to tcp!irc.oftc.net!6667 on /net/tcp/17 :larich.oftc.net NOTICE AUTH :*** Looking up your hostname... :larich.oftc.net NOTICE AUTH :*** Checking Ident :larich.oftc.net NOTICE AUTH :*** Found your hostname > and i’m still a little bewildered by email on plan 9, but i’ll get > there. thanks again. It's a bit bewildering; I wrote up a summary of my understanding a while ago: http://wiki.9front.org/upas-theory -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T75d22acfa474b209-Me67befc4be8a516a6cf7ae09 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] 9front hackathon report
Quoth Lucio De Re : > Thank you, Ori. That brief report is quite impressive. > > I'm offering to install the changes on the T23 I bought specially to > run 9front on. It doesn't get much attention - you can blame Linux for > that, not 9legacy - but it does sit where it serves as a permanent > reminder :-) > > Did y'all create a Git development branch for this? > > Lucio. > Things are committed to 'front' as they get finished. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T6a36e13dbe3250d2-Md5d19295206b0cea0420ccfe Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] 9front hackathon report
the gsoc thread reminded me that I should also probably post the hackathon writeup that I put together here, for the curious: https://orib.dev/9hack1.html -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T6a36e13dbe3250d2-Mfbc538dcb55b5bc07d770ec3 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] spec in plan9port?
Quoth fge...@gmail.com: > On 9/6/22, o...@eigenstate.org wrote: > > Quoth fge...@gmail.com: > >> Sure, thanks for clarifying! Where else is or could be the passing of > >> spec to Tattach implemented? > > > > mount, or whatever is doing the mounting. > Hence my original question. > sorry, I don't use p9p much, but: - '9p' appears have a '-A' option - 9pfuse has a '-a' option - v9fs has a -o anamme= option etc. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T4d821c657f5e5431-Mc640cc61c2c329b4c543ca1e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] spec in plan9port?
Quoth fge...@gmail.com: > Sure, thanks for clarifying! Where else is or could be the passing of > spec to Tattach implemented? mount, or whatever is doing the mounting. note, sometimes it's called 'aname'. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T4d821c657f5e5431-M82e0c8b14d1f5ec073bc07d0 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] spec in plan9port?
Quoth fge...@gmail.com: > On plan9 (and inferno) mount has [ spec ] to select between different > file trees: > https://9p.io/magic/man2html/1/bind > ... > mount [ option ... ] servename old [ spec ] > ... > "The spec argument to mount is passed in the attach(5) message to the > server, and selects among different file trees served by the server. > ... > > After looking at the source for srv(4), 9pserve(4) I am not sure this > is possible in plan9port. If yes, could somebody please share an > example? > thanks! > The spec comes in a form of a Tattach message to the file server, the muxers don't really have anything to do with it. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T4d821c657f5e5431-Mac0f14e102f389d74a76107e Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] USB3 1Gb ethernet card working on 9legacy (rpi 4)
Quoth adr : > On Thu, 4 Aug 2022, Richard Miller wrote: > >> I don't know any reliable server with good bandwidth serving without tls > > > > I am able to connect to your example arch.mirror.constant.com using > > both http and https. > > And now I feel like an idiot! The thing is that other tests I've > made (I'm talking about a long, long time ago) with archlinux's > mirrors allways redirected me to an htpps server, silly of me for > not trying again. > > But I don't think it is the usb ethernet or the tls implementation, > I've tryed before with the internal interface and ori's experience > is similar. I've tryed with other user agent strings, and with > the user agent string hget is using in linux's wget, but that is > not the issue. Maybe is the tcp implementation? Is it easy enough to write something native which is compatible with iperf? that may be a good starting point, and a good target for an initial round of optimizations - even though it's not the most real world thing out there. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T668643d11149fab4-M2227ce2573f5460e301c5dff Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] USB3 1Gb ethernet card working on 9legacy (rpi 4)
Quoth Richard Miller <9f...@hamnavoe.com>: > I am able to connect to your example arch.mirror.constant.com using > both http and https. Same. > Something is going on with usb ethernet and tls which I don't understand. > Could it be as simple as different block sizes interacting with the usb > packet size? > > I modified hget -v option to print the number of reads in each second, as > well as the original bytes-so-far and bytes-total. My internet wire speed > is about 40 megabit/sec. I'm not certain that it's only USB ethernet. On my (gigabit) ethernet, my CPU server is about 15% the speed of my Linux work machine, averaging something like 15 MiB/second. But with different URLs (I picked some OpenBSD mirrors), the results vary wildly: cpu% hget http:$url | tput 10.98 MB/s 20.70 MB/s 17.07 MB/s 15.59 MB/s 10.70 MB/s 10.77 MB/s 15.17 MB/s 15.26 MB/s $ curl -o /dev/null http:$url < % Total% Received % Xferd Average Speed TimeTime Time Current Dload Upload Total SpentLeft Speed 0 00 00 0 0 0 --:--:-- --:--:-- --:--:-- 0 100 489M 100 489M0 0 105M 0 0:00:04 0:00:04 --:--:-- 105M Compare this one, where 9front beats Linux handily: cpu% url=//ftp4.usa.openbsd.org/pub/OpenBSD/7.1/amd64/install71.img cpu% hget http:$url | tput 60.20 MB/s 71.13 MB/s 70.77 MB/s 71.21 MB/s 69.97 MB/s 70.15 MB/s 72.19 MB/s 73.59 MB/s $ curl -o /dev/null http:$url % Total% Received % Xferd Average Speed TimeTime Time Current Dload Upload Total SpentLeft Speed 100 664M 100 664M0 0 24.7M 0 0:00:26 0:00:26 --:--:-- 25.1M And: % hget http:$url | tput 1.26 MB/s 1.54 MB/s 1.54 MB/s 1.45 MB/s 3.53 MB/s $ curl -o /dev/null http:$url % Total% Received % Xferd Average Speed TimeTime Time Current Dload Upload Total SpentLeft Speed 27 664M 27 183M0 0 22.7M 0 0:00:29 0:00:08 0:00:21 23.4M and: % hget http:$url | tput 33.00 MB/s 37.52 MB/s 36.93 MB/s 38.97 MB/s 39.09 MB/s $ curl -o /dev/null http:$url % Total% Received % Xferd Average Speed TimeTime Time Current Dload Upload Total SpentLeft Speed 100 664M 100 664M0 0 90.0M 0 0:00:07 0:00:07 --:--:-- 93.7M -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T668643d11149fab4-M6384a056753c4f907745c22c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] Plan 9 bitsy port and Inferno ipaq1110
Quoth m...@larbob.org:
> https://9p.io/wiki/plan9/installation_on_ipaq/index.html
>
> https://doc.cat-v.org/inferno/4th_edition/inferno_ports
>
> Anyone have more info on the 9 and especially Inferno iPAQ ports? I
> can find mentions of the Inferno port in Vita Nuova's sources as well
> as in various articles but not much actual documentation on getting it
> up. I'm interested in getting these ports up on an iPAQ.
>
It used to live in /sys/src/9/bitsy.
it was removed from 9front in 2016:
term% bind -ac /dist/plan9front /
term% git/log -n1 /sys/src/9/bitsy
Hash: 76e4f7caf9440f3ebb667b801fa55f5bc1c4be08
Author: cinap_lenrek
Date: Thu May 5 10:32:15 -0400 2016
remove unmaintained bitsy (ipaq) kernel
but you can get it out of history:
term% git/query 76e4f7caf9440f3ebb667b801fa55f5bc1c4be08~
8d9a94a66ed80605cb21be1a091a9b6fe02bd023
term% @{cd / && git/fs}
term% mkdir oldkernel
term% dircp
/.git/fs/object/8d9a94a66ed80605cb21be1a091a9b6fe02bd023/tree/sys/src/9
oldkernel
In the bitsy directory, there's a file called 'Booting101'
with instructions on how to get it up and running.
There are a lot of changes to the port/ directory, so updating
the bitsy code to a modern 9front will be a bit of work, but it
is probably doable.
good luck.
--
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Re: [9fans] syscall silently kill processes
Quoth adr : > Andrey, if you want to use different note handlers per process (with a big > number of processes) using libthread, this may be helpful. > > The idea is this: > > An array of handlers for all processes which can be changed by all processes. > When a note is received by a process, this array takes priority. > > An array of pointers to structures of the type take a look at privalloc; I suspect a number of libthread data structures could benefit from being thread-local. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/Tfa6823048ad90a21-Mbf51d6063d50b8c495966c35 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
[9fans] little pipe speedtest
inspired by:
https://mazzo.li/posts/fast-pipes.html
I was curious to see how things stacked up on plan 9.
The machines are apples to oranges (my 9front box
is a 2015-ish era Zbox with a Intel Core i5-7300HQ
processor, and my work machine is a Linux with a
12 core Ryzen 9 3900X).
Transferring 128 gigs instead of the 10 in the initial
benchmark, here are the results:
# 9front 595684fd8a2f08e12d5df48152d93fb8ab800fe3 amd64
% time rc -c '6.write | 6.read'
0.33u 23.28s 11.64r rc -c 6.write | 6.read
# Linux 5.13.0-40-generic #45~20.04.1-Ubuntu SMP
$ time sh -c './write | ./read'
real0m32.039s
user0m0.231s
sys 0m34.576s
here's the plan 9 version of the program:
write.c:
#include
#include
void
main(void)
{
usize sz;
char* buf;
sz = 1 << 18;
buf = malloc(sz);
memset((void*)buf, 'X', sz);
while(1){
n = write(1, buf, sz) != sz)
break;
exits(nil);
}
read.c:
#include
#include
enum {
KiB = 1024ULL,
MiB = 1024*KiB,
GiB = 1024*MiB,
};
void
main(void)
{
vlong sz, r, n;
char* buf;
r = 0;
sz = 1 << 18;
buf = malloc(sz);
while(r <= 128ULL*GiB){
n = read(0, buf, sz);
if(n <= 0)
break;
r += n;
}
exits(nil);
}
And the linux version:
write.c:
#include
#include
#include
int
main(int argc, char **argv)
{
size_t sz;
char* buf;
sz = 1 << 18;
buf = malloc(sz);
memset(buf, 'X', sz);
while(1)
if(write(1, buf, sz) != sz)
break;
return 0;
}
read.c:
#include
#include
enum {
KiB = 1024ULL,
MiB = 1024*KiB,
GiB = 1024*MiB,
};
int
main(int argc, char **argv)
{
ssize_t sz, r, n;
char* buf;
r = 0;
sz = 1 << 18;
buf = malloc(sz);
while(r <= 128ULL*GiB){
n = read(0, buf, sz);
if(n <= 0)
break;
r += n;
}
return 0;
}
--
9fans: 9fans
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Re: [9fans] 9p server to multiply 9p messages?
Quoth ron minnich : > This is why 9p starts to perform poorly in networks with high > bandwidth*delay products -- if you watch the net traffic, you see each > T op on fid blocked by the previous Reply (by devmnt). > > I never figured out a way to fix this without fixing devmnt -- by > removing its general nature. I suspect there are 2 changes that would be needed. First, a shallow protocol change to 9p, where a 'bundle' tag is added, such that if an Rerror is returned for any message in the same bundle, the rest of the bundle is not executed. Second, the userspace API would need to change so that reads and writes can return without waiting for a result, this is harder, and I haven't come up with anything satisfying. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T769854fafd2b7d35-M5fd4417f3e9ea39b38e54f35 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] 9p server to multiply 9p messages?
Quoth ron minnich : > This is why 9p starts to perform poorly in networks with high > bandwidth*delay products -- if you watch the net traffic, you see each > T op on fid blocked by the previous Reply (by devmnt). > > I never figured out a way to fix this without fixing devmnt -- by > removing its general nature. I suspect there are 2 changes that would be needed. First, a shallow protocol change to 9p, where a 'bundle' tag is added, such that if an Rerror is returned for any message in the same bundle, the rest of the bundle is not executed. Second, the userspace API would need to change so that reads and writes can return without waiting for a result, this is harder, and I haven't come up with anything satisfying. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T769854fafd2b7d35-M087325fe3d809fc254b1b283 Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
Re: [9fans] 9p server to multiply 9p messages?
Quoth hiro <23h...@gmail.com>: > > and with 10 million parallel requests, why shouldn't 9p be able to > deliver 10GB/s ?! the tag field is 16 bits. -- 9fans: 9fans Permalink: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/T769854fafd2b7d35-M07ead5c0290adc1a3494d29c Delivery options: https://9fans.topicbox.com/groups/9fans/subscription
