Re: [abcusers] ABC20-draft review
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 10:27:07AM -0400, Wil Macaulay wrote: It will be interesting to see where the next explosion (of content, I mean, not of personality!) takes place. I'd love to see it in the area of vocal music - hymns and such-like. My personal opinion is that abc is most useful for large bodies of similarly-styled music to be used by musicians as a rough guide to repertoire instead of an exact guide to performance. I guess that's why I don't expect an explosion of content when/if Finale supports abc output... I think you could be riht. My guess is that, if programs like this do start speaking ABC it could be rather a one-way process (that's not in any way an argument against it) in the same way that lilypond currently seems to be. You could take ABC and feed it into something else that gives, eg, explicit layout, and all the rest of the goodstuff that yourpackageofchoice gives you. And then you can't re-export that to ABC without losing ggodstuff, which after all you want, because if you're content with what ABC gives you you'd be using that primarily. Um. And there again, you're importing it from ABC because you want the goodstuff that ABC gives you that, eg, Finale doesn't. Like the ability to _handle_ an explosion of content. I had getting on for a thousand tunes typed up in Finale, once, before I discovered ABC. It needed a separate database app to keep track of filenames and header info. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC20-draft review
From: Arent Storm [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hardly anybody will know what an Irish-roll is (is it eatable?) Is there even such thing? In Krassen's version of O'Neils, I find mention of a long roll and a short roll in Irish fiddle playing. He also comments that his notation is only appropriate for fiddle and that players of other instruments may have to modify it. It seems to me that the situation is a lot more complicated than just one universal Irish roll. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC20-draft review
Arent Storm wrote: * ~ I always thought that ~ is used for a prall-trill by default. Hardly anybody will know what an Irish-roll is (is it eatable?) I'll bet there are at least a hundred times as many abc users who know what an Irish Roll is as there are those who recognise what a prall-trill is. Actually, I think the English word for it is Pralltriller, but most people would call it an upper mordent, and in abc it's normally represented by the letter P. The meaning of ~ is context-dependent. In classical music it will mean a turn (that's what the symbol looks like), and in most places a turn symbol in the staff notation will be correct. What kind of twiddle gets played depends on the tradition that the music comes from. * clefs: Is K: Am transpose=-2 illegal where K: Am treble transpose=-2 is not No. transpose (or t=) is a directive which affects only playing and has nothing to do with clefs, so both are legal. ''clef'' starts the specication (I'd rather like to see clef=clefname than clef alone Why? The clef names treble, alto, tenor and bass are all unique identifiers which can't mean anything but a clef, so clef= is redundant. More complicated clef specifications should use the clef= syntax though. *voices state that all voices to be mentioned in the abc-body have to be declared in the header when using the [V:ID] syntax, where each ID will be referenced over and over. It's good practice, but I don't see why it should be mandatory. Phil Taylor To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC20-draft review
From: Phil Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 4:27 PM Subject: Re: [abcusers] ABC20-draft review Arent Storm wrote: * ~ I always thought that ~ is used for a prall-trill by default. Hardly anybody will know what an Irish-roll is (is it eatable?) I'll bet there are at least a hundred times as many abc users who know what an Irish Roll is as there are those who recognise what a prall-trill is. Actually, I think the English word for it is Pralltriller, but most people would call it an upper mordent, and in abc it's normally represented by the letter P. I have seen lots of ~ but rarely seen any P Most musicians will know the ~ sign but most will call it by different names; I see the ~ sign as the most common embellishment-sign in any (folk)music I've seen The meaning of ~ is context-dependent. In classical music it will mean a turn (that's what the symbol looks like), and in most places a turn symbol in the staff notation will be correct. What kind of twiddle gets played depends on the tradition that the music comes from. Agree * clefs: Is K: Am transpose=-2 illegal where K: Am treble transpose=-2 is not No. transpose (or t=) is a directive which affects only playing and has nothing to do with clefs, so both are legal. I meant illegal in the sense of the draft spec. ''clef'' starts the specication (I'd rather like to see clef=clefname than clef alone Why? The clef names treble, alto, tenor and bass are all unique identifiers which can't mean anything but a clef, so clef= is redundant. More complicated clef specifications should use the clef= syntax though. It makes the use of the K: field for at least anything other than key more readable / parseable / orthogonal *voices state that all voices to be mentioned in the abc-body have to be declared in the header when using the [V:ID] syntax, where each ID will be referenced over and over. It's good practice, but I don't see why it should be mandatory. To enable software to flag possible typo's when you have header V:First V:Second V:Third body [V:Fisrt] someoabcline2 [V:Second]someabcline3 [V:Third]someabcline What should a program do on encounter of [V:Fisrt] with or without the header. Arent To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC20-draft review
On Wed, Jul 30, 2003 at 03:27:13PM +0100, Phil Taylor wrote: Arent Storm wrote: * ~ I always thought that ~ is used for a prall-trill by default. Hardly anybody will know what an Irish-roll is (is it eatable?) I'll bet there are at least a hundred times as many abc users who know what an Irish Roll is ... I think the long roll is currently deprecated, in favour of the baguette. Though this may be a regional usage. -- Richard Robinson The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes - S. Lem To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC20-draft review
- Original Message -
From: Jon Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, July 30, 2003 2:45 PM
Subject: Re: [abcusers] ABC20-draft review
From: Arent Storm [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hardly anybody will know what an Irish-roll is (is it eatable?)
Is there even such thing? In Krassen's version of O'Neils, I find mention
of
a long roll and a short roll in Irish fiddle playing. He also comments
that
his notation is only appropriate for fiddle and that players of other
instruments may have to modify it. It seems to me that the situation is a
lot more complicated than just one universal Irish roll.
To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to:
http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
It's equivalent to a 'turn' ,
The note above the main note;
The main note;
The note below the main note;
The main note.
{B}A{G}A
A long roll has the main note played before the turn. A{B}A{G}A
But the constraints of any particular instrument and personal taste cause it
to be modified a lot.
Ray
To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC20-draft review
From: Ray Davies [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Jon Freeman [EMAIL PROTECTED]
From: Arent Storm [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Hardly anybody will know what an Irish-roll is (is it eatable?)
Is there even such thing? In Krassen's version of O'Neils,
I find mention of a long roll and a short roll in Irish fiddle playing.
He also comments that
his notation is only appropriate for fiddle and that players of other
instruments may have to modify it. It seems to me that the situation is a
lot more complicated than just one universal Irish roll.
Agreed.
My main concern is the name it seems to get.
As far as I know, ornamentation signs are heavily used
in two main areas:
- Baroque/Classical/Romantical periods in Classicalmusic
- Folk music from all over the world.
There's more (folk)music than that from the British isles,
so capturing a particular ornamentation sign to named
'Irish roll' makes it difficult.
It comes in handy as terminology remains context free.
- trill, prall, turn and mordent are used commonly names for
the 4 most common ornaments for many instruments:
trill ( tr )
prall ( ~ shaped thing )
mordent ( slashed ~ )
turn: ( 8 shaped thing (rotated 90deg ))
All 4 ornments come in lots of variations, most not having
a context free name.
- uppermordent and lowermordent is googled only in abc-context
so I would stop using the term
It's equivalent to a 'turn' ,
The note above the main note;
The main note;
The note below the main note;
The main note.
{B}A{G}A
A long roll has the main note played before the turn. A{B}A{G}A
But the constraints of any particular instrument and personal taste cause it
to be modified a lot.
Ray
To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to:
http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] ABC20-draft review
The largest body of published abc is in the realm of Irish dance music, in which the roll is a well-understood term meaning 'decorate here as appropriate to your combination of instrument, region and personal aesthetic'. It will be interesting to see where the next explosion (of content, I mean, not of personality!) takes place. I'd love to see it in the area of vocal music - hymns and such-like. My personal opinion is that abc is most useful for large bodies of similarly-styled music to be used by musicians as a rough guide to repertoire instead of an exact guide to performance. I guess that's why I don't expect an explosion of content when/if Finale supports abc output... wil Jon Freeman wrote: From: "Arent Storm" [EMAIL PROTECTED] Hardly anybody will know what an Irish-roll is (is it eatable?) Is there even such thing? In Krassen's version of O'Neils, I find mention of a long roll and a short roll in Irish fiddle playing. He also comments that his notation is only appropriate for fiddle and that players of other instruments may have to modify it. It seems to me that the situation is a lot more complicated than just one "universal" Irish roll. To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
