Re: [abcusers] mup
On Sun, 19 Oct 2003, John Chambers wrote: This is one of the standard problems with universal data formats. The people who design such formats usually seem to miss a lot of the information that is in other formats, or decide that such information isn't needed. The graphics world has some good examples. Thus, you can find programs that convert formats like PS, PDF, HTML, and other annotated formats into GIF or JPEG. The result may look the same on the screen. But when you try to do the reverse conversion, you discover that GIF and JPEG really just represent pixels, and lack aany of the I can see your point. But even then, though not perfect, such tools can be quite usefull. The same can be said for a tool to convert music/score formats. I don't mind doing some or possibly lots of manual editing afterwards. A conversion tool may be able to speed up my work. -- Martin Tarenskeen To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] mup
(just to address one point) On Sun, Oct 19, 2003 at 06:49:21PM +, John Chambers wrote: One of the problems that I think I've seen in my occasional looks at MusicXML is that it permits the representation of music as a pile of isolated notes, with no clues as to their structure. If you have this sort of MusicXML, there's no way you can extract things like voices from it. MusicXML can be laid out timewise (note by note) or partwise (voice by voice) and there are tools to convert between the two formats. See Files at http://www.recordare.com/xml.html Cheers, Dave To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] mup
Dave Holland writes: | On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 01:03:23PM +0200, Martin Tarenskeen wrote: | Would be nice to start working on a commandline tool that can take many | types of music notation formats as input and produces any other of these | formats as output. | | I think it would be more use to have a program for each format that | would convert files of that format to and from an independent format | such as MusicXML. That way, when a new notation program is released | (with its own new format!) you just have to produce an appropriate | MusicXML converter and all the existing files become available. | | Cheers, | Dave | To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html -- O :#/ John Chambers + [EMAIL PROTECTED] / \ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] mup
Neil Jennings writes: | Problem is that the 'independent format' needs to accommodate all | functionality required from all formats. | I don't think MusicXML fits the bill yet. It doesn't seem to support some of | the constructs that I need (unless I have missed something). | | Agree that when we have a 'Universal Music format' then this would be the | preferred approach. This is one of the standard problems with universal data formats. The people who design such formats usually seem to miss a lot of the information that is in other formats, or decide that such information isn't needed. The graphics world has some good examples. Thus, you can find programs that convert formats like PS, PDF, HTML, and other annotated formats into GIF or JPEG. The result may look the same on the screen. But when you try to do the reverse conversion, you discover that GIF and JPEG really just represent pixels, and lack aany of the structural information about the picture's components (letters, words, paragraphs, etc.). So JPEG - PDF really can't be done at all correctly. We've seen the same sort of thing with music, when people attempt to use MIDI as a universal format. But MIDI doesn't need to represent things like bar lines or meter, because these aren't needed to play the music correctly. So a conversion of MIDI to other notations needs to guess at where the bar lines go. One of the problems that I think I've seen in my occasional looks at MusicXML is that it permits the representation of music as a pile of isolated notes, with no clues as to their structure. If you have this sort of MusicXML, there's no way you can extract things like voices from it. This is a traditional problems with a lot of piano reductions of music, of course, and it would prevent generating usable abc from the XML. You could only convert to abc when the XML contains the key, meter, and voice information that abc needs. And if the XML came from MIDI, you might have the voice lines, but you would probably not have the key, meter and bar-line info. It's possible that MusicXML could be used as an intermediary for other music notations. But the users of those other notations would have to work out a standard way of converting to MusicXML so that none of the original information (key/time signatures, voices, bar lines, etc.) would be lost. This is probably a non-trivial task, as it would take cooperation of the people developing all other music packages. In some cases, it couldn't ever work, because the input language simply lacks something that the output language requires. -- O :#/ John Chambers + [EMAIL PROTECTED] / \ [EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] mup
On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 11:13:44PM +0100, Neil Jennings wrote: Problem is that the 'independent format' needs to accommodate all functionality required from all formats. To a certain extent; otherwise you end up with a complicated monstrosity that no-one supports all aspects of anyway. I don't think MusicXML fits the bill yet. It doesn't seem to support some of the constructs that I need (unless I have missed something). Well, OK, it only aims to support common Western musical notation from the 17th century onwards but I'm wondering what you're using that it doesn't support? The standard is still under active development, so if you think something's missing, you could lobby to get it added. Dave To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] mup
On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 01:03:23PM +0200, Martin Tarenskeen wrote: Would be nice to start working on a commandline tool that can take many types of music notation formats as input and produces any other of these formats as output. I think it would be more use to have a program for each format that would convert files of that format to and from an independent format such as MusicXML. That way, when a new notation program is released (with its own new format!) you just have to produce an appropriate MusicXML converter and all the existing files become available. Cheers, Dave To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] mup
Hello, One ascii based format you didn't mention is MusicXML which I believe has a very bright future. It allows moving music among any of the commercial programs you mention. I'm looking into exporting this format from my little online program at http://www.normanschmidt.net/abassc.php . Norman Martin Tarenskeen wrote: Hi, I'm trying out a copy of mup ( from http://www.arkkra.com ) and it seems to do very good score typesetting for me. The only disadvantages are that it is not free ( though 29 US-dollar is not that much ), and that it uses yet another notation language. I've just begun to be a skilled ABC writer. Any MUP users in this mailing list ? I have now found several ASCII based music notation programs, each using it's own syntax - abc2ps and programs derived from it like abcm2ps and others - Lilypond - MusicTex - Mup And there are probably several others I didn't look at yet. Would be nice to start working on a commandline tool that can take many types of music notation formats as input and produces any other of these formats as output. I believe NoteEdit comes close to this goal, but I would like a simple commandline tool that can easily be ported to any platform (including the good old Atari I'm using for abcm2ps and mup :-) Maybe someone is even able to hack the formats used by commercial programs like Finale, Sibelius, Score Perfect Pro ... Maybe I'm just dreaming, but it may inspire some skilled programmers out there ? -- Martin Tarenskeen To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
Re: [abcusers] mup
Problem is that the 'independent format' needs to accommodate all functionality required from all formats. I don't think MusicXML fits the bill yet. It doesn't seem to support some of the constructs that I need (unless I have missed something). Agree that when we have a 'Universal Music format' then this would be the preferred approach. Neil Jennings - Original Message - From: Dave Holland [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 13 October 2003 12:28 Subject: Re: [abcusers] mup On Mon, Oct 13, 2003 at 01:03:23PM +0200, Martin Tarenskeen wrote: Would be nice to start working on a commandline tool that can take many types of music notation formats as input and produces any other of these formats as output. I think it would be more use to have a program for each format that would convert files of that format to and from an independent format such as MusicXML. That way, when a new notation program is released (with its own new format!) you just have to produce an appropriate MusicXML converter and all the existing files become available. Cheers, Dave To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html To subscribe/unsubscribe, point your browser to: http://www.tullochgorm.com/lists.html
