Re: Worthwhile time sinks was Re: [agi] list vs. forum
On 13/06/06, sanjay padmane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On the suggestion of creating a wiki, we already have it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_general_intelligence I wouldn't want to pollute the wiki proper with our unverified claims. , as you know, and its exposure is much wider. I feel, wiki cannot be a good format for discussions. No one would like their views edited out by a random It is not meant so much to replace our discussions on list but to display the various questions people have asked and the various answers to them in a persistant and easy to use fashion. Will --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Worthwhile time sinks was Re: [agi] list vs. forum
On Tue, Jun 13, 2006 at 05:05:56AM +0530, sanjay padmane wrote: Even though only a few have reacted to my (somewhat threatening ;-) ) proposal to discontinue this list, it seems that people are comfortable with I would call it a troll. it, anyhow... You seem to be new to the Internet. I suggest you take it slow, and do your research instead of posting reflexively on merits of technology you're not familiar with. Someone can experiment with automated posting of all forum messages to the Hey, it was your suggestion, you do it. Just download the list manager, and hack it. It's easy, right? And don't forget automatic cathegorization, plaintext and multipart support, and a search engine, and anti-spam measures, and authentication, and to make my browser spawn my favourite editor, instead of pasting into a form, and server-side filtering, and distributed archives, and push, while you're at it. And don't forget to build a community about your project, in order to support it, and to issue security fixes for the hundreds of bugs you'll find in a new project of such complexity. Gosh, email is sure retarded, having all these features a forum doesn't have, and you'll find are absolutely trivial to implement. Get back to us when you're done, will you? list, as and when they are created. Speaking of high quality, you are the best person to do that :-). As I'm only starting in Agi etc, I've only questions and speculations to post. I've not done that because I'm afraid of sinking agi-forums to the level of agi-n00b-forums. But I'll take that risk someday, I can delete the post (unlike in a list), if it sounds too low quality. That's not a bug, that's a feature. And you can't edit my local inbox, and it won't go away when the machine with the list archives dies (trust me, eventually they all do). On the suggestion of creating a wiki, we already have it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_general_intelligence , as you know, and its exposure is much wider. I feel, wiki cannot be a good format for discussions. No one would like their views edited out by a random user. It serves the purpose best, when the knowledge is already established. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: Worthwhile time sinks was Re: [agi] list vs. forum
On 13/06/06, Yan King Yin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Will, I've been thinking of hosting a wiki for some time, but not sure if we have reached critical mass here. Possibly not. I may just collate my own list of questions and answers until the time does come. When we get down to the details, people's views may diverge even further. I can think of some potential points of disagreement: 0. what's the overall AGI architecture? 1. neurally based or logic based? I think this question would be better as analog or digital. While the system I am interested in uses logical operations (AND, OR etc) for running a program, I do not expect it to be constrained to be logical in the everday sense. 2. what's the view on Friendliness? 3. initially, self-improving or static? I think the distinction would need to be between static, weakly self-improving (like the human brain) and strongly self-improving. 4. open source or not? 5. commercial or not? I would also add 6. Does specialist hardware need to be made to make AGI practical? 7. Do you deal with combinatorial explosions in your AGI, if not why not? 7. Similarly for the No free lunch theorems. May be we can set up a simple poll place to see who agrees with whom?? It might be hard to keep the poll simple Will --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Worthwhile time sinks was Re: [agi] list vs. forum
On 6/13/06, William Pearson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It is not meant so much to replace our discussions on list but todisplay the various questions people have asked and the variousanswers to them in a persistant and easy to use fashion. Will Well I'm not sure if this requires group effort. If someone is really interested, one can start by compiling the material scattered in the list.Sanjay To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [agi] list vs. forum
I concur, hvaing these readily available in my mailbox, and able to replay to them in a simple manner is very useful. I would like to see them all indexed in Google as well though, to draw in alarger viewing audience.James RatcliffRussell Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/10/06, sanjay padmane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I feel you should discontinue the list. That will force people to post there.I'm not using the forum only because no one else is using it (or veryfew), and everyone is perhaps doing the same. And I feel the forum should be discontinued, so as to shift all the traffic to the list. Email is superior in every way, but the deciding factor for me is that the forum is an extra thing to keep track of, and since I have too many things to keep track of already, I'm not going to add another one even if the list is discontinued. If you really want to use the forum interface, though, why not implement linking between it and email? Something as simple as letting a user receive an email copy of each forum post, with a link to click if one wishes to reply, would do fine. Another advantage is that it will expose the discussions to google andit will draw more people with increasing content. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the list archives are already googleable? To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED] Thank YouJames Ratcliffhttp://FallsTown.com - Local Wichita Falls Community Websitehttp://Falazar.com - Personal WebsiteHosting Starting at $9.95Dialups Accounts - $8.95 __Do You Yahoo!?Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Worthwhile time sinks was Re: [agi] list vs. forum
Hi Sanjay, On 6/12/06, William Pearson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/06/06, sanjay padmane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I feel you should discontinue the list. That will force people to post there. I'm not using the forum only because no one else is using it (or very few), and everyone is perhaps doing the same. I also wouldn't be interested in using the forum. And, this is the reason why I have not killed the AGI list, but am rather happily growing it, even though I think forums are basically superior. Since starting the AGI list, it has grown steadily... Since starting the AGI Forum, it has grown ... er ... very slowly, in spite of announcements on the list and elsewhere. The ImmInst.org forums have convinced me of the value of the forum modality. However, I have to respect that fact that most AGI list members prefer a list. Sanjay, if you want to energize the AGI Forum (a motive I strongly encourage!) please post some high-quality content there ;- At its best, a Forum can be like a wiki in dialogue form. Not often achieved, of course, but nice when it *is* achieved... -- Ben --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Worthwhile time sinks was Re: [agi] list vs. forum
If we want to increase content and get more people interested I think the best thing to devote our time and effort to is a wiki rather than a forum. Threads have little chance of staying on topic and finding things in them as they meander around becomes nightmarish. As we can't present a definitive answer to what is intelligence the best we can do is try and classify the various possible answers to questions around intelligence so that people can see the different views and the projects/people that are working/thinking in that direction. A bit like this http://www.macrovu.com/CCTGeneralInfo.html But in wiki form and not so focused on the ambiguous term think. I expect we will get a variety of different classifications of approaches, from the logic based strong self-improvers to those that fastidiously copy the current knowledge of a human brain. People can then find the projects/people they are interested in and read their back postings on this list. Will, I've been thinking of hosting a wiki for some time, but not sure if we have reachedcritical mass here. Whenwe get down to the details,people'sviewsmay diverge even further. I can think of some potential points of disagreement: 0. what's the overall AGI architecture? 1. neurally based or logic based? 2. what's the view on Friendliness? 3. initially, self-improving or static? 4.open source or not? 5. commercial or not? May be we can set up a simple poll place to see who agrees with whom?? YKY To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: Worthwhile time sinks was Re: [agi] list vs. forum
Even though only a few have reacted to my (somewhat threatening ;-) ) proposal to discontinue this list, it seems that people are comfortable with it, anyhow...Someone can experiment with automated posting of all forum messages to the list, as and when they are created. Speaking of high quality, you are the best person to do that :-). As I'm only starting in Agi etc, I've only questions and speculations to post. I've not done that because I'm afraid of sinking agi-forums to the level of agi-n00b-forums. But I'll take that risk someday, I can delete the post (unlike in a list), if it sounds too low quality. On the suggestion of creating a wiki, we already have it here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_general_intelligence , as you know, and its exposure is much wider. I feel, wiki cannot be a good format for discussions. No one would like their views edited out by a random user. It serves the purpose best, when the knowledge is already established. SanjayOn 6/13/06, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Sanjay,On 6/12/06, William Pearson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 10/06/06, sanjay padmane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I feel you should discontinue the list. That will force people to post there. I'm not using the forum only because no one else is using it (or very few), and everyone is perhaps doing the same. I also wouldn't be interested in using the forum.And, this is the reason why I have not killed the AGI list, but amrather happily growing it, even though I think forums are basicallysuperior. Since starting the AGI list, it has grown steadily...Since starting the AGI Forum, it has grown ... er ... very slowly,in spite of announcements on the list and elsewhere.The ImmInst.org forums have convinced me of the value of the forum modality. However, I have to respect that fact that most AGI list members prefer a list.Sanjay, if you want to energize the AGI Forum (a motive I stronglyencourage!) please post some high-quality content there ;- At its best, a Forum can be like a wiki in dialogue form.Not oftenachieved, of course, but nice when it *is* achieved...-- Ben---To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [agi] list vs. forum
On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 12:41:16AM -0400, Philip Goetz wrote: Why do we have both an email list and a forum? Seems they both serve the same purpose. Both planes and ships are means of transportation. So why do we have both planes and ships? Email and the web are very different media, and in many ways complementary. A synthesis of both (a blog/forum/email) would be best, but this hasn't been done yet properly. So for time being, the forum is a very different medium from the list, and we should keep both for those who're more comfortable with either. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [agi] list vs. forum
On Sat, Jun 10, 2006 at 07:39:52PM +0530, sanjay padmane wrote: I feel you should discontinue the list. That will force people to post there. Or will cause email-only users to drop out of the conversation. Sorry, I don't do forums. I only do web because of tabs and RSS, and there's nothing like that available for forums. Message authentication is possible. Push is not possible. Self-archiving is not possible. Maybe in another ten years we'll have a web forum that is usable. I'm not using the forum only because no one else is using it (or very few), and everyone is perhaps doing the same. I'm not posting to the forum because I never post to forums. Another advantage is that it will expose the discussions to google and it will draw more people with increasing content. If list archives are not public, something is very wrong with this list's architecture. -- Eugen* Leitl a href=http://leitl.org;leitl/a http://leitl.org __ ICBM: 48.07100, 11.36820http://www.ativel.com 8B29F6BE: 099D 78BA 2FD3 B014 B08A 7779 75B0 2443 8B29 F6BE --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED] signature.asc Description: Digital signature
Re: [agi] list vs. forum
Phil, The answer is * I believe the Forum is a superior mode of communication, IF PEOPLE WILL USE IT, because of the much nicer threading and archiving facilities * People in this community seem to prefer to use a list to a forum So, the Forum exists in the hopes that eventually discussion will somehow transition there ;-) And the list exists because it is active and people are using it. The imminst.org Forums are very active, indicating that the Forum approach is not totally hopeless in a general sense... -- Ben G On 6/10/06, Philip Goetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do we have both an email list and a forum? Seems they both serve the same purpose. --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [agi] list vs. forum
I feel you should discontinue the list. That will force people to post there. I'm not using the forum only because no one else is using it (or very few), and everyone is perhaps doing the same. Another advantage is that it will expose the discussions to google and it will draw more people with increasing content. Sanjay On 6/10/06, Ben Goertzel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Phil, The answer is * I believe the Forum is a superior mode of communication, IF PEOPLE WILL USE IT, because of the much nicer threading and archiving facilities * People in this community seem to prefer to use a list to a forum So, the Forum exists in the hopes that eventually discussion will somehow transition there ;-) And the list exists because it is active and people are using it. The imminst.org Forums are very active, indicating that the Forum approach is not totally hopeless in a general sense... -- Ben G On 6/10/06, Philip Goetz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why do we have both an email list and a forum? Seems they both serve the same purpose. --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [agi] list vs. forum
On 6/10/06, sanjay padmane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I feel you should discontinue the list. That will force people to post there.I'm not using the forum only because no one else is using it (or veryfew), and everyone is perhaps doing the same. And I feel the forum should be discontinued, so as to shift all the traffic to the list. Email is superior in every way, but the deciding factor for me is that the forum is an extra thing to keep track of, and since I have too many things to keep track of already, I'm not going to add another one even if the list is discontinued. If you really want to use the forum interface, though, why not implement linking between it and email? Something as simple as letting a user receive an email copy of each forum post, with a link to click if one wishes to reply, would do fine. Another advantage is that it will expose the discussions to google andit will draw more people with increasing content. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the list archives are already googleable? To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [agi] list vs. forum
Thats right, I forgot, the archives are searchable. But the formats are not so good. Forums are more organized. There is also a chance of mixing up the lists, if subscribed to many lists. You have some more pros/cons here , but I guess its a matter of habit :-) The forum can return a notification with a link, when someone replies to a watched thread. But I doubt it can notify for all threads. May need some custom programming. Sanjay On 6/10/06, Russell Wallace [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 6/10/06, sanjay padmane [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I feel you should discontinue the list. That will force people to post there. I'm not using the forum only because no one else is using it (or very few), and everyone is perhaps doing the same. And I feel the forum should be discontinued, so as to shift all the traffic to the list. Email is superior in every way, but the deciding factor for me is that the forum is an extra thing to keep track of, and since I have too many things to keep track of already, I'm not going to add another one even if the list is discontinued. If you really want to use the forum interface, though, why not implement linking between it and email? Something as simple as letting a user receive an email copy of each forum post, with a link to click if one wishes to reply, would do fine. Another advantage is that it will expose the discussions to google and it will draw more people with increasing content. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression the list archives are already googleable? To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
[agi] list vs. forum
Why do we have both an email list and a forum? Seems they both serve the same purpose. --- To unsubscribe, change your address, or temporarily deactivate your subscription, please go to http://v2.listbox.com/member/[EMAIL PROTECTED]
