Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
Agreed :) Most of AOLserver core is ok being loaded into core Tcl although the server config and module/Tcl init framework incompatible. It can be made to work but old-style AOLserver modules would need to be updated. -Jim On Feb 28, 2008, at 6:53 PM, Jeff Hobbs wrote: Matthew M. Burke wrote: I am convinced we could attract some students, but I don't want to commit unless there's at least a little more positive response. Another possibility is that I know Clif Flynt, Jeff Hobbs and other Tcl folks are putting together an application. So perhaps the better approach would be to list some AOLserver-related projects with their application. AOLServer is dying to be rewritten as a small shim on core Tcl. ;) Jeff -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank. -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
On 2008.02.28, Matthew M. Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am convinced we could attract some students, but I don't want to commit unless there's at least a little more positive response. Another possibility is that I know Clif Flynt, Jeff Hobbs and other Tcl folks are putting together an application. So perhaps the better approach would be to list some AOLserver-related projects with their application. What do folks think? I think the silence from the community speaks volumes, unfortunately. -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://dossy.org/ Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/ He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on. (p. 70) -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
On 2/29/08, Dossy Shiobara [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What do folks think? I was just discussing this with a co-worker and he suggests that if there was a module to parse apache style .htaccess files, more people might be interested. Maybe there is an aspiring young student out there who would want to take this project up and submit for summer of code. Daniel -- | --- | Daniel P. Stasinski | http://www.saidsimple.com | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.disabilities-r-us.com | XMMP: [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://www.avenues.org | Google Talk: mooo| http://www.scriptkitties.com -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
Jim, Dossy: I would be nice to hear more about this, over the years I have heard these comments and hoped that it would someday be possible. But then I had a year long experience that makes me wonder. I wrote the following up last night, but it sounded to unhopeful, I'll post it and hope that someone can offer more insight than I got out of the experience: I've taken about a one year detour into Tcl only development. I actually started with a web services module that was thinly tied to AOLserver. It avoided using most ns* API. From the beginning the module abstracted out the most invasive API, that being ns_log. The main requirement was that I wasn't going to change the module code, the same code needed to work with AOLserver and Tcl. The first step was to use nstclsh as the tcl shell. I replaced ns_conn, ns_return and a few other helper procedures. I ended up with a the ability to run a server under tcpserver/inetd. The next step was to replace a few other ns APIs like ns_info. This allowed me to use tcl threads, which is much faster than tcpserver. Actually, the tcl threads server was faster at serving a web service than tclhttpd was at serving a simple page. Comparison: tclhttpd (just serving simple pages) 40-50 request/sec tcpserver: 40-50 requests/sec (process based) socket: 80-95 requests/sec Tcl Threads: 150-180 requests/sec AOLserver: 300-350 requests/sec However, besides the speed difference, AOLserver has many more facilities than those available with Tcl. The most important difference is that with AOLserver you don't have to think about thread management. Next most important is the filter/request pipeline. But there is also a different concept with Tcl threads which took me quite a while to even notice: the event loop. You never deal with the Tcl event loop in AOLserver, and it has a number of subtle requirements. In addition there is essentially no documentation on how to use it, or any well known examples to guide your development. I hate sounding so down on the possibilities, but there are simply no comparable examples in the Tcl world to AOLserver. If Tcl is actually a suitable platform for what AOlserver offers, nobody has demonstrated it even in parts. As far as AOLserver core, it is very stable. I have not heard of a bug in a long time that has affected anyone except those testing edge cases or under extreme performance. But under these conditions it is difficult to even characterize the behavior as buggy or not. There is another notable difference with AOLserver core: the logging system. AOLserver has a wonderful logging system that doesn't exist in the Tcl code. Then there is the configuration system. It is hard to get this type of thing right, and AOLserver has gone through a number of external formats, it seems the internal format has remained pretty much the same. Tcl simply has nothing like this. The concept of packages is focused on generic installation, whereas AOLserver usually ends up being highly customized. Hopefully most of this can be done via separate configuration files, but these don't mesh up with Tcl packages very well, most Tcl packages are not written as anything more than libraries, whereas AOLserver users are more focused on applications which use these packages. AOLserver provides a much more structured framework for application development. Tcl provides almost no structure beyond the annoying thrashing to find required packages. This system falls apart as soon as you want to customize or isolate a particular installation, then all the magic goes away and you have to dig in and learn all about what is actually happening. --- Anyway, I hope and wish that it would be possible to move to a Tcl system, it would be nice to hear more about how that could happen. tom jackson On Friday 29 February 2008 06:40, Jim Davidson wrote: Agreed :) Most of AOLserver core is ok being loaded into core Tcl although the server config and module/Tcl init framework incompatible. It can be made to work but old-style AOLserver modules would need to be updated. -Jim On Feb 28, 2008, at 6:53 PM, Jeff Hobbs wrote: Matthew M. Burke wrote: I am convinced we could attract some students, but I don't want to commit unless there's at least a little more positive response. Another possibility is that I know Clif Flynt, Jeff Hobbs and other Tcl folks are putting together an application. So perhaps the better approach would be to list some AOLserver-related projects with their application. AOLServer is dying to be rewritten as a small shim on core Tcl. ;) Jeff -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank. -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
On 2008.02.28, Matthew M. Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am convinced we could attract some students, but I don't want to commit unless there's at least a little more positive response. Another possibility is that I know Clif Flynt, Jeff Hobbs and other Tcl folks are putting together an application. So perhaps the better approach would be to list some AOLserver-related projects with their application. What do folks think? I think the silence from the community speaks volumes, unfortunately. I my case... My only desire would be getting AOLServer to work perfectly on 64bit platforms. I have not heard of anyone that has AOLServer working on it with a decent load (more than 10K hits / day) on a 64 bits platform and do not restart it for at least 1 month. In my case I run AOLServer with customized code on top of it. No OpenACS. No modules except nspostgres. In 32 bits it works like a charm. No memory leaks. It simply works (damn fast!). Has any of you AOLServer working on 64 bits? Are there any parts that need to be fixed / reworked to get it working in 64 bits? Regards, Juan José -- Juan José del Río| Comercio online / e-commerce (+34) 616 512 340| [EMAIL PROTECTED] Simple Option S.L. Tel: (+34) 951 930 122 Fax: (+34) 951 930 122 http://www.simpleoption.com -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
On 2008.02.28, Matthew M. Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am convinced we could attract some students, but I don't want to commit unless there's at least a little more positive response. Another possibility is that I know Clif Flynt, Jeff Hobbs and other Tcl folks are putting together an application. So perhaps the better approach would be to list some AOLserver-related projects with their application. What do folks think? I think the silence from the community speaks volumes, unfortunately. I'm not (currently) a Javascript programmer but I thought Dossy's proposal to make Javascript a 1st-class language in Aolserver was by far the most bang-for-the-buck, and most likely to restart interest in aolserver. And if aolserver had serious javascript, I'd probably learn javascript and put a lot of my own time into making it work right. -john -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 05:41:44PM +0100, Juan Jos? del R?o [Simple Option] wrote: In my case I run AOLServer with customized code on top of it. No OpenACS. No modules except nspostgres. In 32 bits it works like a charm. No memory leaks. It simply works (damn fast!). Hm, so you see memory leaks when compiled for 64 bit, but none when compiling the same code 32 bit - interesting. Can you reproduce the leakage under Valgrind? Has any of you AOLServer working on 64 bits? Sure, I've been using AOLserver 4.0.10.x for years on x86-64. But this happens to be only under light load, much less than 10k hits/day. Are there any parts that need to be fixed / reworked to get it working in 64 bits? Not that I'm aware of. You've probably seen the recent traffic about newer versions of Tcl apparently causing trouble by messing with the 64 bit build options, though. -- Andrew Piskorski [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.piskorski.com/ -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
What benefit (other than perception) would having javascript (a scripting language) in the server provide that TCL (a scripting language) does not provide? John Buckman wrote: On 2008.02.28, Matthew M. Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I am convinced we could attract some students, but I don't want to commit unless there's at least a little more positive response. Another possibility is that I know Clif Flynt, Jeff Hobbs and other Tcl folks are putting together an application. So perhaps the better approach would be to list some AOLserver-related projects with their application. What do folks think? I think the silence from the community speaks volumes, unfortunately. I'm not (currently) a Javascript programmer but I thought Dossy's proposal to make Javascript a 1st-class language in Aolserver was by far the most bang-for-the-buck, and most likely to restart interest in aolserver. And if aolserver had serious javascript, I'd probably learn javascript and put a lot of my own time into making it work right. -john -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank. -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank. begin:vcard fn:Jay J. Rohr n:Rohr;Jay email;internet:[EMAIL PROTECTED] x-mozilla-html:TRUE version:2.1 end:vcard
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 05:41:44PM +0100, Juan Jos? del R?o [Simple Option] wrote: In my case I run AOLServer with customized code on top of it. No OpenACS. No modules except nspostgres. In 32 bits it works like a charm. No memory leaks. It simply works (damn fast!). Hm, so you see memory leaks when compiled for 64 bit, but none when compiling the same code 32 bit - interesting. Can you reproduce the leakage under Valgrind? FYI, I see no leaks under 64bit, but I do see a fair amount of bloat. On 32bit Linux, my nsd process ran around 1.2gb, while under 64bits I'm around 7gb. However, no leaks. After a few days my nsd process size does not continue to grow, it is stable at ~17gb (I have a 10gb BerkeleyDB cache in process). I'm not clear on why anyone would need 64bit Aolserver unless they needed to use more than 2gb of RAM. I'm also not clear that the bloat is aolserver, and not tcl or other libraries I'm using. -john -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
The main difference to me is that the thread model is not the same. Thread communication in Tcl Threads is done by inserting events into a thread's event queue (or removing events). Similar communication in AOLserver uses a simple queue. Also, all I/O must be non-blocking. I haven't seen an example of how you can do both client/server http requests and database access in the same thread. So this difference impacts the mapping of AOLserver internals to what is currently available in Tcl. What I have been thinking, which isn't backed up with any real knowledge, is that the nsd binary (stuff that comes from the nsd/ directory) should be modified so that we have something like core modules (like mini-modules) and non-core modules, I'm not sure exactly what the distinction would be, but the point is to create something like a micro-kernel. But what should be in or out, or how this would work, I have no idea. nstclsh is very cool and gives you scheduled procs, logging, and a lot of threading code. I've copied the concept to create an nswish binary, but I don't write Tk code. But it seems that simple servers can be constructed with just nstclsh. If nstclsh could load modules, that would be a huge step forward. Just being able to use the ns_db API within a Tcl app would be cool, then at least my ported web services module would run under nstclsh and have database connectivity. This would allow also nswish Tk applications. Maybe interesting, maybe not. tom jackson On Friday 29 February 2008 09:08, Andrew Piskorski wrote: On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 07:55:28AM -0800, Tom Jackson wrote: However, besides the speed difference, AOLserver has many more facilities than those available with Tcl. The most important difference is that with Well, yes. And it would be very cool to see all or most of AOLserver's functionality re-factored so that it can be readily understood and used by OTHER Tcl-friendly applications and libraries. If well-done, I also expect that such a re-factoring will help clarify just what AOLserver has to offer and why it's good. I find it quite conceivable that stock AOLserver could in fact become a particular configuration of various Tcl-enabled libraries, likely all coordinated via Tcl's new ns_config package... And Tom, your email looks like a good start on describing some of the AOLserver's key generally useful functionality, and why you'd like to be able to use each part from tclsh. :) -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
On Fri, Feb 29, 2008 at 04:59:48PM +, John Buckman wrote: And if aolserver had serious javascript, I'd probably learn javascript and put a lot of my own time into making it work right. In your particular case, why? What's your motivation there? I'm not (currently) a Javascript programmer but I thought Dossy's proposal to make Javascript a 1st-class language in Aolserver was by far the most bang-for-the-buck, and most likely to restart interest in aolserver. Or Lua, or Erlang, those would both be interesting. But yeah, I suppose there'd be much more mainstream demand for JavaScript. Note, I suspect that refactoring AOLserver code for more flexible use by tclsh would be complementary, not antagonistic, to more complete support for other programming languages. If I was a hard-core aficionado of some other suitable high-level programming language, and yet was also interested in using AOLserver, direct language support would of course be more immediately critical, but ideally I'd want to see both. Also, nicely re-factored libraries of code might be enough to help convince me to add the specific support for my favorite language MYSELF. Btw, the way Distel turns Emacs into a stand-alone Erlang-compatible process sounds pretty cool. If you can do that to Emacs, clearly you could do it to AOLserver too, if you actually needed to for some reason. (I can't think of a good use case offhand, but then I'm not an Erlang programmer either.) http://fresh.homeunix.net/~luke/distel/ http://code.google.com/p/distel/ http://bc.tech.coop/blog/070719.html -- Andrew Piskorski [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.piskorski.com/ -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
On 2008.02.29, Jay Rohr [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What benefit (other than perception) would having javascript (a scripting language) in the server provide that TCL (a scripting language) does not provide? A wealth of documentation, in the form of books, tutorials, classes, etc. There's other benefits, of course, but this is the only one that really counts, right now. -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://dossy.org/ Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/ He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on. (p. 70) -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
Matthew M. Burke wrote: I am convinced we could attract some students, but I don't want to commit unless there's at least a little more positive response. Another possibility is that I know Clif Flynt, Jeff Hobbs and other Tcl folks are putting together an application. So perhaps the better approach would be to list some AOLserver-related projects with their application. What do folks think? An idea I floated a little while back was to make aolserver a competitor in the space of web hosting (particularly, one server hosting many independent domains). The main projects here would be - creating a configuration file wizard (to get up and running quicker) - adding new virtual hosts to a running server - user-setuid operation (that is, let the server read/write files as the owning user of the account, rather than as the server user. This would almost certainly require some kind of proxy process). Executing code as different users would be good too but once you get the file permissions out of the way that's less important. Database access is still an issue tho. The response I got was somewhat chilly in general (if you want apache you know where to get it) tho better from a few people on the naviserver project where they're more interested in trying out radical ideas :) -J -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
Matthew M. Burke wrote: I am convinced we could attract some students, but I don't want to commit unless there's at least a little more positive response. Another possibility is that I know Clif Flynt, Jeff Hobbs and other Tcl folks are putting together an application. So perhaps the better approach would be to list some AOLserver-related projects with their application. AOLServer is dying to be rewritten as a small shim on core Tcl. ;) Jeff -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
On 2008.02.28, Jeff Hobbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AOLServer is dying to be rewritten as a small shim on core Tcl. ;) Don't laugh, but when Jim Davidson and I spoke about AOLserver 5.0, that was one of the directions we were seriously considering, turning AOLserver into a series of packages to be loaded into core Tcl. It's still a possibility, although it raises the question of whether the investment in effort would be worth it, at this point. -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://dossy.org/ Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/ He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on. (p. 70) -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
God that would awesome. Jade On Thu, Feb 28, 2008 at 6:15 PM, Dossy Shiobara [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2008.02.28, Jeff Hobbs [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: AOLServer is dying to be rewritten as a small shim on core Tcl. ;) Don't laugh, but when Jim Davidson and I spoke about AOLserver 5.0, that was one of the directions we were seriously considering, turning AOLserver into a series of packages to be loaded into core Tcl. It's still a possibility, although it raises the question of whether the investment in effort would be worth it, at this point. -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://dossy.org/ Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/ He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on. (p. 70) -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank. -- Jade Rubick Acting Chief Technology Officer United eWay [EMAIL PROTECTED] tel (503)285-4963 fax (707)671-1333 www.UNITEDeWAY.org -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
On Wed, 2008-02-27 at 12:56 -0500, Dossy Shiobara wrote: On 2008.02.27, Matthew M. Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Google has just announced the summer of code program for this summer (http://code.google.com/soc/2008/). [...] [...] Obviously working on the Lua core is out, [...] Matthew, I think you sent this to the wrong mailing list. :-) -- Dossy 1) The mentoring organization (that would be the AOLserver community) It looks more like he has mixed AOL with Lua... is it really a bad idea? ;-P -- Juan José del Río| Comercio online / e-commerce (+34) 616 512 340| [EMAIL PROTECTED] Simple Option S.L. Tel: (+34) 951 930 122 Fax: (+34) 951 930 122 http://www.simpleoption.com -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
On 2008.02.27, Matthew M. Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Google has just announced the summer of code program for this summer (http://code.google.com/soc/2008/). [...] [...] Obviously working on the Lua core is out, [...] Matthew, I think you sent this to the wrong mailing list. :-) -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://dossy.org/ Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/ He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on. (p. 70) -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
Umnote to self: 0. Get previous email. 1. Scratch sentence about Lua core 2. Replace every occurrence of the word Lua with AOLserver. 3. Replace Lua Forge with the AOLserver Source Forge page. 4. Re-send email. Matt P.S. Sorry about the noise. As you've probably guessed, there are several projects I use/am involved with which I think should participate in GSoC. -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
Re: [AOLSERVER] Google Summer of Code
On 2008.02.27, Matthew M. Burke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: P.S. Sorry about the noise. As you've probably guessed, there are several projects I use/am involved with which I think should participate in GSoC. Okay, so if you were seriously suggesting that we participate in the Google SoC, I don't think it's worth the effort as I can't imagine us attracting any students who would want to apply. If you're convinced that I'm wrong, then I think you can and should definitely put in a SoC mentoring application on behalf of the AOLserver community. Perhaps, if nothing else, we can use this opportunity to finally nail down some kind of roadmap for AOLserver through the 4.5 releases and eventually, a 5.0 release. -- Dossy -- Dossy Shiobara | [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://dossy.org/ Panoptic Computer Network | http://panoptic.com/ He realized the fastest way to change is to laugh at your own folly -- then you can let go and quickly move on. (p. 70) -- AOLserver - http://www.aolserver.com/ To Remove yourself from this list, simply send an email to [EMAIL PROTECTED] with the body of SIGNOFF AOLSERVER in the email message. You can leave the Subject: field of your email blank.
