Re: [apple-crop] apple anti-cancer research
David and Robert, Your discussion has been interesting. I am forwarding your information to my daughter who is a student at Oregon Health and Science University. She is getting her degree in Dietetics and Nutrition and is insatiable when it comes to learning. Thanks for posting on apple-crop. Phil Glaize Virginia grower.. heading into bloom From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of David Doud Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:07 PM To: Apple-crop discussion list Subject: Re: [apple-crop] apple anti-cancer research On Apr 17, 2013, at 2:04 PM, robjwal...@gmail.com wrote: David: Thanks for the PDF. As I had thought, the only cell type studied was HT29, a human colon cancer cell line. No other tumor cell types or, more importantly, normal cell types were studied here. Proper experimental controls were not done, so the results cannot be generalized beyond the obvious findings...the apple extract used can kill one type of tumor cell in tissue culture, but so can a thousand other things. Also, there did not appear to be any vehicle controls used. The preparation of the apple extract is given in great detail, but the final product is dried powder. This powder had to be dissolved and sterilized before adding it to cultured cells, but the solvent used as the vehicle for this is not stated as far as I can tell, and it is never tested by itself to see if the vehicle alone has any toxic effects on the cells. Often DMSO is used as a vehicle for difficult to solubilize compounds and even diluted DMSO can injure or kill cells depending on the dose and time of exposure. There are 'control' groups mentioned here and there in the paper, but a control group of cells that simply has nothing added to it (no apple extract, no FU, no vehicle) is not the same as a vehicle control. Because the study was performed in considerable detail, one would hope that vehicle controls were performed, but this must be stated explicitly in the paper or else it cannot be assumed. Interestingly, the authors cite another paper (reference 11) where they showed that oral administration of LMWAP effectively protected ICR mice against CRC (LMWAP is a mixture of polysaccharides isolated from apples; CRC is colorectal carcinoma). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22429028 Again, this paper is not in my library's PDF collection, but if they are referring to the ICR mice that I am familiar with (http://www.taconic.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=758), it is impossible to demonstrate this effect in that mouse. The ICR mouse is just a regular white mouse with an intact immune system. This experiment cannot be done in such a mouse because it requires a mouse with a defective immune system that will permit human colon carcinoma cells to grow unimpeded. And so it goes... Robert Walter On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:32 PM, robjwal...@gmail.com wrote: This journal is kind of obscure and I can't get this article from my university library, but would be interested in seeing it in its entirety. If someone could get it to me as a PDF, I'd appreciate it. Cancer chemopreventatives, carcinogenesis, and cell culture happen to be among my specialties. Based on the abstract, I'll make a few comments. Of late, the Chinese have made a great effort in the area of chemopreventatives probably due to their long cutural history of traditional or herbal medicine. Many studies like the one in question have been published over the past 10-15 years using cultured human tumor cells treated with this or that naturally occurring agent including curcumin, resveratrol, silibinin, bitter melon extract, etc. Many of them show cytotoxic effects on tumor cells similar to those seen in the apple study. So, right away, we must ask, why haven't we stopped cancer using these agents? Unfortunately, most of these studies suffer from the same failing. The apple study showed a dose-dependent killing of cultured human tumor cells and assayed several apoptosis-related or cell cycle-related peptides or proteins. This seems convincing because these assays test for peptides that are of current interest in apoptosis studies, but here they only confirm that the cells are dying and point to the stage of cell cycle in which they are dying, nothing more. The problem is that cells in culture can be killed by almost anything and it will occur in a dose-related manner. Increasing doses of any salt like NaCl, KCl, MgCl2, CaCl2; any amino acid like glutamine, alanine, or glycine; any sugar like glucose, sucrose, or mannose; hormones like insulin, transferrin, or estrogen; even distilled water will kill cultured cells with increasing doses. This doesn't mean that they are specific for tumor cells, just that they will kill cells in culture and when the cells die, their expression of Bax, Bcl, Cdk, and cyclins will change in predictable ways. The control that is usually
Re: [apple-crop] apple anti-cancer research
Phil: Your daughter might be interested how this originated - on a forum, a friend, who buys into a lot of sketchy material, posted this link to a 'popular' website http://naturalsociety.com/apple-extract-kills-cancer-cells-outperforms-chemo-drugs/ - so - I'm guessing many more people will see the claim Study: Apple Extract Kills Cancer Cells, Outperforms Common Chemo Drugs than will be exposed to any critique such as Robert Walter posted for us - bogus is bogus, and altho this would, on the surface, seem to be positive for apples, it's cheating and not a prosperous way to promote ourselves David Doud grower IN thunderstorms, rain and floods, tornado watch, gonna be a while before I get anything else planted - and wondering how effective that COCS applied last sunday at 1/4 green is today... On Apr 18, 2013, at 9:46 AM, Phil Glaize wrote: David and Robert, Your discussion has been interesting. I am forwarding your information to my daughter who is a student at Oregon Health and Science University. She is getting her degree in Dietetics and Nutrition and is insatiable when it comes to learning. Thanks for posting on apple-crop. Phil Glaize Virginia grower…. heading into bloom From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of David Doud Sent: Wednesday, April 17, 2013 9:07 PM To: Apple-crop discussion list Subject: Re: [apple-crop] apple anti-cancer research On Apr 17, 2013, at 2:04 PM, robjwal...@gmail.com wrote: David: Thanks for the PDF. As I had thought, the only cell type studied was HT29, a human colon cancer cell line. No other tumor cell types or, more importantly, normal cell types were studied here. Proper experimental controls were not done, so the results cannot be generalized beyond the obvious findings...the apple extract used can kill one type of tumor cell in tissue culture, but so can a thousand other things. Also, there did not appear to be any vehicle controls used. The preparation of the apple extract is given in great detail, but the final product is dried powder. This powder had to be dissolved and sterilized before adding it to cultured cells, but the solvent used as the vehicle for this is not stated as far as I can tell, and it is never tested by itself to see if the vehicle alone has any toxic effects on the cells. Often DMSO is used as a vehicle for difficult to solubilize compounds and even diluted DMSO can injure or kill cells depending on the dose and time of exposure. There are 'control' groups mentioned here and there in the paper, but a control group of cells that simply has nothing added to it (no apple extract, no FU, no vehicle) is not the same as a vehicle control. Because the study was performed in considerable detail, one would hope that vehicle controls were performed, but this must be stated explicitly in the paper or else it cannot be assumed. Interestingly, the authors cite another paper (reference 11) where they showed that oral administration of LMWAP effectively protected ICR mice against CRC (LMWAP is a mixture of polysaccharides isolated from apples; CRC is colorectal carcinoma). http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22429028 Again, this paper is not in my library's PDF collection, but if they are referring to the ICR mice that I am familiar with (http://www.taconic.com/wmspage.cfm?parm1=758), it is impossible to demonstrate this effect in that mouse. The ICR mouse is just a regular white mouse with an intact immune system. This experiment cannot be done in such a mouse because it requires a mouse with a defective immune system that will permit human colon carcinoma cells to grow unimpeded. And so it goes... Robert Walter On Apr 16, 2013, at 11:32 PM, robjwal...@gmail.com wrote: This journal is kind of obscure and I can't get this article from my university library, but would be interested in seeing it in its entirety. If someone could get it to me as a PDF, I'd appreciate it. Cancer chemopreventatives, carcinogenesis, and cell culture happen to be among my specialties. Based on the abstract, I'll make a few comments. Of late, the Chinese have made a great effort in the area of chemopreventatives probably due to their long cutural history of traditional or herbal medicine. Many studies like the one in question have been published over the past 10-15 years using cultured human tumor cells treated with this or that naturally occurring agent including curcumin, resveratrol, silibinin, bitter melon extract, etc. Many of them show cytotoxic effects on tumor cells similar to those seen in the apple study. So, right away, we must ask, why haven't we stopped cancer using these agents? Unfortunately, most of these studies suffer from the same failing. The apple study showed a dose-dependent killing of cultured human
[apple-crop] apple anti-cancer research
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23511050 Chinese study - Oligosaccharide from apple induces apoptosis and cell cycle arrest in HT29 human colon cancer cells. If I read the abstract correctly, this was published last month - Dunno - it would be nice if someone knowledgable could review this - If it were the opposite association, I bet there would be banner headlines... David Doud Grower, Indiana 1/4 green, wet - nice to have a real spring this year - ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] apple anti-cancer research
This journal is kind of obscure and I can't get this article from my university library, but would be interested in seeing it in its entirety. If someone could get it to me as a PDF, I'd appreciate it. Cancer chemopreventatives, carcinogenesis, and cell culture happen to be among my specialties. Based on the abstract, I'll make a few comments. Of late, the Chinese have made a great effort in the area of chemopreventatives probably due to their long cutural history of traditional or herbal medicine. Many studies like the one in question have been published over the past 10-15 years using cultured human tumor cells treated with this or that naturally occurring agent including curcumin, resveratrol, silibinin, bitter melon extract, etc. Many of them show cytotoxic effects on tumor cells similar to those seen in the apple study. So, right away, we must ask, why haven't we stopped cancer using these agents? Unfortunately, most of these studies suffer from the same failing. The apple study showed a dose-dependent killing of cultured human tumor cells and assayed several apoptosis-related or cell cycle-related peptides or proteins. This seems convincing because these assays test for peptides that are of current interest in apoptosis studies, but here they only confirm that the cells are dying and point to the stage of cell cycle in which they are dying, nothing more. The problem is that cells in culture can be killed by almost anything and it will occur in a dose-related manner. Increasing doses of any salt like NaCl, KCl, MgCl2, CaCl2; any amino acid like glutamine, alanine, or glycine; any sugar like glucose, sucrose, or mannose; hormones like insulin, transferrin, or estrogen; even distilled water will kill cultured cells with increasing doses. This doesn't mean that they are specific for tumor cells, just that they will kill cells in culture and when the cells die, their expression of Bax, Bcl, Cdk, and cyclins will change in predictable ways. The control that is usually missing from these studies is: *normal human cell lines* like cultured primary skin cells (keratinocytes) or fibroblasts or normal kidney cells or normal pancreas or normal gut epithelial cells. If the agent of interest kills tumor cells but must be used at 100-10,000 times higher doses to kill normal cells, then you may have something, but 98% of these studies don't do this simple but essential control. A great deal of confusion results when this control is lacking. There are several widely used and potent chemotherapy agents that have been used for decades and are still actively used today. These agents were originally derived from plant sources and include colchicine and colcemid (from crocus), taxol (from yew), vinblastine and vincristine (from periwinkle) and podophyllotoxin for etoposide (from mayapple). So it is quite reasonable to expect that there will be other phytochemicals that are yet to be discovered which will be highly effective in preventing tumor development or in killing tumor cells. Studies like this one using apple oligosaccharide however, are not at all convincing no matter what we may wish for...but I haven't seen the full paper just the abstract. Rob Walter, PhD Research Scientist, Retired Stroger Hospital of Cook County Rush University Medical School. On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 7:53 PM, David Doud david_d...@me.com wrote: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23511050 Chinese study - Oligosaccharide from apple induces apoptosis and cell cycle arrest in HT29 human colon cancer cells. If I read the abstract correctly, this was published last month - Dunno - it would be nice if someone knowledgable could review this - If it were the opposite association, I bet there would be banner headlines... David Doud Grower, Indiana 1/4 green, wet - nice to have a real spring this year - * * ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
