Re: [apple-crop] Late summer drop and fruit size
Bonjour Vincent! Désolé, mais peut-être que vous devriez vous en tenir à l'entomologie et de la pathologie et de laisser la recherche horticole très dur très important pour les vrais experts! :-) On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Vincent Philion vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca wrote: Hello, sorry for the delay. Yes, correct. Crop load influenced fruit weight notwithstanding ReTain. Fruits left on tree at harvest were more numerous and larger when treated with Retain. Fruits were up to 56g larger (148g vs 92g) depending on the specifics of the ReTain application. What I also found interesting was that the average fruit pressure of retain treated fruit significantly dropped for fruit left on the trees. As if the fruit stuck to the tree with Retain, and continued to grow but got softer. The Brix index was also influenced by the number of fruits on the tree: lower Brix on trees with more fruit. Retain also increased sugar content. Not much else to report. I’m not usually into physiology. This was a “accidental” project for us! Vincent On 14janv., 2014, at 16:41, David Kollas kol...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Vincent: As I understand your most recent explanation, both the untreated and the ReTain-treated trees produced greater fruit size at harvest if they were borne on trees most heavily-set at start of experiment. And that the ReTain treated trees showed a greater size/initial number of fruit than did the untreated. If the difference in fruit size for treated versus untreated is small, I would not be much bothered by it. Can you tell us how much different they were? David Kollas On Jan 14, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Vincent Philion vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca wrote: Hello! Thank you all for your input! I did not explain why I was looking at drop and fruit size: it was an experiment on the use of ReTain. In the end I’m not sure I can pinpoint the reason this increased fruit size on trees with more apples (notwithstanding ReTain), but your input underlined that a number of variables can be involved! I liked Duane’s idea. If you’re curious, the report will read: ReTain Treatments significantly increased harvested McIntosh yield as compared to the control (p0.0001). Average fruit size at harvest was proportional to the total number of fruits on the trees present at the start of the experiment (p=0.01) and fruits treated with ReTain were larger than in the control (p=0.02). The effect of ReTain on harvest was expected (drop prevention) but the effect on fruit size was undetectable if the model was not adjusted to the initial crop load (thus my question) So the next question is now: why are ReTain treated fruits bigger than untreated fruit at harvest? bye for now, Vincent On 14janv., 2014, at 10:06, Duane Greene dgre...@pssci.umass.edu wrote: ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- Jon Clements aka 'Mr Honeycrisp' UMass Cold Spring Orchard 393 Sabin St. Belchertown, MA 01007 413-478-7219 umassfruit.com ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Late summer drop and fruit size
Jon, google translate est votre meilleur femme de chances de Québec! On Fri, Jan 17, 2014 at 5:02 PM, Vincent Philion vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca wrote: For once, I actually agree with you Jon. ;-) I don’t have your skills and talent, so I know I should stick to the easy topics like pathology that my simple mind can understand. So from your friendly comment I conclude that all this was all quite predictable? Good. My only goal here was to confirm that this data made sense. If it does, I’m happy. I don’t intend to publish in Nature. I rely on you for that. ;-) have a nice weekend! PS = You should come up here and teach us. Your French level is not bad! Enough to flirt with the women and order beer. The essential stuff. Vincent On 17janv., 2014, at 15:21, Jon Clements jon.cleme...@umass.edu wrote: Bonjour Vincent! Désolé, mais peut-être que vous devriez vous en tenir à l'entomologie et de la pathologie et de laisser la recherche horticole très dur très important pour les vrais experts! :-) On Thu, Jan 16, 2014 at 9:34 PM, Vincent Philion vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca wrote: Hello, sorry for the delay. Yes, correct. Crop load influenced fruit weight notwithstanding ReTain. Fruits left on tree at harvest were more numerous and larger when treated with Retain. Fruits were up to 56g larger (148g vs 92g) depending on the specifics of the ReTain application. What I also found interesting was that the average fruit pressure of retain treated fruit significantly dropped for fruit left on the trees. As if the fruit stuck to the tree with Retain, and continued to grow but got softer. The Brix index was also influenced by the number of fruits on the tree: lower Brix on trees with more fruit. Retain also increased sugar content. Not much else to report. I’m not usually into physiology. This was a “accidental” project for us! Vincent On 14janv., 2014, at 16:41, David Kollas kol...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Vincent: As I understand your most recent explanation, both the untreated and the ReTain-treated trees produced greater fruit size at harvest if they were borne on trees most heavily-set at start of experiment. And that the ReTain treated trees showed a greater size/initial number of fruit than did the untreated. If the difference in fruit size for treated versus untreated is small, I would not be much bothered by it. Can you tell us how much different they were? David Kollas On Jan 14, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Vincent Philion vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca wrote: Hello! Thank you all for your input! I did not explain why I was looking at drop and fruit size: it was an experiment on the use of ReTain. In the end I’m not sure I can pinpoint the reason this increased fruit size on trees with more apples (notwithstanding ReTain), but your input underlined that a number of variables can be involved! I liked Duane’s idea. If you’re curious, the report will read: ReTain Treatments significantly increased harvested McIntosh yield as compared to the control (p0.0001). Average fruit size at harvest was proportional to the total number of fruits on the trees present at the start of the experiment (p=0.01) and fruits treated with ReTain were larger than in the control (p=0.02). The effect of ReTain on harvest was expected (drop prevention) but the effect on fruit size was undetectable if the model was not adjusted to the initial crop load (thus my question) So the next question is now: why are ReTain treated fruits bigger than untreated fruit at harvest? bye for now, Vincent On 14janv., 2014, at 10:06, Duane Greene dgre...@pssci.umass.edu wrote: ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- Jon Clements aka 'Mr Honeycrisp' UMass Cold Spring Orchard 393 Sabin St. Belchertown, MA 01007 413-478-7219 umassfruit.com ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop -- Maurice Tougas Tougas Family Farm Northborough,MA 01532 508-450-0844 ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Late summer drop and fruit size
Hello, sorry for the delay. Yes, correct. Crop load influenced fruit weight notwithstanding ReTain. Fruits left on tree at harvest were more numerous and larger when treated with Retain. Fruits were up to 56g larger (148g vs 92g) depending on the specifics of the ReTain application. What I also found interesting was that the average fruit pressure of retain treated fruit significantly dropped for fruit left on the trees. As if the fruit stuck to the tree with Retain, and continued to grow but got softer. The Brix index was also influenced by the number of fruits on the tree: lower Brix on trees with more fruit. Retain also increased sugar content. Not much else to report. I’m not usually into physiology. This was a “accidental” project for us! Vincent On 14janv., 2014, at 16:41, David Kollas kol...@sbcglobal.netmailto:kol...@sbcglobal.net wrote: Vincent: As I understand your most recent explanation, both the untreated and the ReTain-treated trees produced greater fruit size at harvest if they were borne on trees most heavily-set at start of experiment. And that the ReTain treated trees showed a greater size/initial number of fruit than did the untreated. If the difference in fruit size for treated versus untreated is small, I would not be much bothered by it. Can you tell us how much different they were? David Kollas On Jan 14, 2014, at 12:26 PM, Vincent Philion vincent.phil...@irda.qc.camailto:vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca wrote: Hello! Thank you all for your input! I did not explain why I was looking at drop and fruit size: it was an experiment on the use of ReTain. In the end I’m not sure I can pinpoint the reason this increased fruit size on trees with more apples (notwithstanding ReTain), but your input underlined that a number of variables can be involved! I liked Duane’s idea. If you’re curious, the report will read: ReTain Treatments significantly increased harvested McIntosh yield as compared to the control (p0.0001). Average fruit size at harvest was proportional to the total number of fruits on the trees present at the start of the experiment (p=0.01) and fruits treated with ReTain were larger than in the control (p=0.02). The effect of ReTain on harvest was expected (drop prevention) but the effect on fruit size was undetectable if the model was not adjusted to the initial crop load (thus my question) So the next question is now: why are ReTain treated fruits bigger than untreated fruit at harvest? bye for now, Vincent On 14janv., 2014, at 10:06, Duane Greene dgre...@pssci.umass.edumailto:dgre...@pssci.umass.edu wrote: ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.netmailto:apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Late summer drop and fruit size
Hello Vincent, I usually am not an active participant in post but I thought that I might weigh in on your comment since I have been doing preharvest drop research for a number of years. Jim Krupa our technical assistant has been involved and he expressed an interest in doing an experiment to find out a little more about why fruit drop? The experiment was done on McIntosh and Delicious over two seasons. Briefly, 6 to 10 trees were selected. Half were designated to be drop trees and half were designated to be harvest trees. The experiment was carried out from the time the first fruit dropped until most of the fruit were on the ground. Each morning fruit under the drop tree were picked up and taken to the lab where they were weighed and internal ethylene was determined on each fruit. Red color, flesh firmness, soluble solids and starch rating were determined and seed number counted. This was repeated for fruit that dropped at 3:00 pm. Three times a week 10 fruit were harvested from the harvest trees and similarly processed. Seed number was not associated with fruit weight or drop although this has been documented in the literature. I suspect that this may be an issue when there are 0, 1 or 2 seeds per fruit but that was not the case here. The conclusion that we came to was all fruit that dropped were climacteric and showed signs of ripening (internal ethylene greater than 1 ppm, increased red color and reduced starch content). The appropriate question to ask then may be why did the fruit that drop ripen early? We know from research done here in the 1980s that fruit with very low seed number are also low in calcium. Fruit low in calcium may ripen earlier. I offer another explanation. Many of you know that recent reserach has indicated that a carbohydrate balance deficiency in trees druing June drop is a factor that infouences thinner response as well as the severity of June drop. This is based on the original work of Alan Lakso and taken to the field by Terence Robinson. The model is good and the practical application for thinning is important. However, if one looks at the carbon balance in Alan's model over the growing season you will note two things. First, there is likely to be a deficit during the June drop period and this has been highly publicized. A second period of deficit occurs at harvest time and this has been largely ingnored. It makes perfect sense since as fruit ripen there is a large increase in respiration (climacteric) which fuels the synthesis of enzymes involved with ripening. Vincent mentioned that were might be a shelf shedding mechanism in trees. When trees have a carbohydrate deficit they must respond. In some instances this response is shedding of fruit. Even with fruit it is survival of the fittest. This occurs at June drop, why not at harvest? Drop is frequently controlled by spurs. If spurs are shaded or leaf area is small then the fruit on these spurs are most likely to drop early. Mite damaged trees also show early drop. We have followed drop from McIntosh over the course of the season which often occurs over a 7 week period. Fruit increase in size about 1% per day they are on the tree. Consequently, it is not surprising that average fruit sized will increase over the harvest season. This is one of the attributes of using drop control compounds. I am not sure if I have helped in this discussion but drop can be precipitated by several events (seed number, heat, lack of light, reduced leaf area, damaged leaves, etc) but I do believe it comes right back to any factor that stimulates ripening will lead to increased drop. Duane On 1/13/2014 12:12 PM, Vincent Philion wrote: Hello, I'm analyzing some data and I have seemingly contradictory results. I'm hoping someone can comment and make sense of this: For a number of randomly selected trees, fruit drop was recorded starting late summer until harvest. For each tree, we recorded total fruit drop (and weight), harvested fruit (and weight) and the total (drop + harvest). As I was looking at the data, I noticed average harvested fruit size (weight/number) was related to Total fruits per tree... Nothing strange, until I realized harvested fruit size INCREASED with Total fruit number on tree. As if the fruit dropping left more energy for the remaining fruits to grow? I was expecting harvested fruit size to be smaller on trees that had more total fruit, not the other way around. I'm not sure this late natural fruit drop can be compared to very late hand thinning, but does anyone know if fruit size increase can be linked to late thinning (notwithstanding total yield that can go down)? Maybe this is normal? Any comment welcome! Vincent http://www.irda.qc.ca/assets/client/img/logo.png *Vincent Philion*,M.Sc. agr. Microbiologiste Phytopathologiste pomiculture *Institut de recherche et
Re: [apple-crop] Late summer drop and fruit size
Hello! Thank you all for your input! I did not explain why I was looking at drop and fruit size: it was an experiment on the use of ReTain. In the end I’m not sure I can pinpoint the reason this increased fruit size on trees with more apples (notwithstanding ReTain), but your input underlined that a number of variables can be involved! I liked Duane’s idea. If you’re curious, the report will read: ReTain Treatments significantly increased harvested McIntosh yield as compared to the control (p0.0001). Average fruit size at harvest was proportional to the total number of fruits on the trees present at the start of the experiment (p=0.01) and fruits treated with ReTain were larger than in the control (p=0.02). The effect of ReTain on harvest was expected (drop prevention) but the effect on fruit size was undetectable if the model was not adjusted to the initial crop load (thus my question) So the next question is now: why are ReTain treated fruits bigger than untreated fruit at harvest? bye for now, Vincent On 14janv., 2014, at 10:06, Duane Greene dgre...@pssci.umass.edumailto:dgre...@pssci.umass.edu wrote: Hello Vincent, I usually am not an active participant in post but I thought that I might weigh in on your comment since I have been doing preharvest drop research for a number of years. Jim Krupa our technical assistant has been involved and he expressed an interest in doing an experiment to find out a little more about why fruit drop? The experiment was done on McIntosh and Delicious over two seasons. Briefly, 6 to 10 trees were selected. Half were designated to be drop trees and half were designated to be harvest trees. The experiment was carried out from the time the first fruit dropped until most of the fruit were on the ground. Each morning fruit under the drop tree were picked up and taken to the lab where they were weighed and internal ethylene was determined on each fruit. Red color, flesh firmness, soluble solids and starch rating were determined and seed number counted. This was repeated for fruit that dropped at 3:00 pm. Three times a week 10 fruit were harvested from the harvest trees and similarly processed. Seed number was not associated with fruit weight or drop although this has been documented in the literature. I suspect that this may be an issue when there are 0, 1 or 2 seeds per fruit but that was not the case here. The conclusion that we came to was all fruit that dropped were climacteric and showed signs of ripening (internal ethylene greater than 1 ppm, increased red color and reduced starch content). The appropriate question to ask then may be why did the fruit that drop ripen early? We know from research done here in the 1980s that fruit with very low seed number are also low in calcium. Fruit low in calcium may ripen earlier. I offer another explanation. Many of you know that recent reserach has indicated that a carbohydrate balance deficiency in trees druing June drop is a factor that infouences thinner response as well as the severity of June drop. This is based on the original work of Alan Lakso and taken to the field by Terence Robinson. The model is good and the practical application for thinning is important. However, if one looks at the carbon balance in Alan's model over the growing season you will note two things. First, there is likely to be a deficit during the June drop period and this has been highly publicized. A second period of deficit occurs at harvest time and this has been largely ingnored. It makes perfect sense since as fruit ripen there is a large increase in respiration (climacteric) which fuels the synthesis of enzymes involved with ripening. Vincent mentioned that were might be a shelf shedding mechanism in trees. When trees have a carbohydrate deficit they must respond. In some instances this response is shedding of fruit. Even with fruit it is survival of the fittest. This occurs at June drop, why not at harvest? Drop is frequently controlled by spurs. If spurs are shaded or leaf area is small then the fruit on these spurs are most likely to drop early. Mite damaged trees also show early drop. We have followed drop from McIntosh over the course of the season which often occurs over a 7 week period. Fruit increase in size about 1% per day they are on the tree. Consequently, it is not surprising that average fruit sized will increase over the harvest season. This is one of the attributes of using drop control compounds. I am not sure if I have helped in this discussion but drop can be precipitated by several events (seed number, heat, lack of light, reduced leaf area, damaged leaves, etc) but I do believe it comes right back to any factor that stimulates ripening will lead to increased drop. Duane On 1/13/2014 12:12 PM, Vincent Philion wrote: Hello, I’m analyzing some data and I have seemingly contradictory results. I’m hoping
Re: [apple-crop] Late summer drop and fruit size
Vincent: Maybe the dropping left the LARGER fruits on the tree? I don't know if poor pollination results in both smaller fruit AND more early drop of the smallest, poorly-seeded fruits, but I can suppose it is a possible explanation of your observation. David Kollas Kollas Orchard, CT On Jan 13, 2014, at 12:12 PM, Vincent Philion vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca wrote: Hello, I’m analyzing some data and I have seemingly contradictory results. I’m hoping someone can comment and make sense of this: For a number of randomly selected trees, fruit drop was recorded starting late summer until harvest. For each tree, we recorded total fruit drop (and weight), harvested fruit (and weight) and the total (drop + harvest). As I was looking at the data, I noticed average harvested fruit size (weight/number) was related to Total fruits per tree… Nothing strange, until I realized harvested fruit size INCREASED with Total fruit number on tree. As if the fruit dropping left more energy for the remaining fruits to grow? I was expecting harvested fruit size to be smaller on trees that had more total fruit, not the other way around. I’m not sure this late natural fruit drop can be compared to very late hand thinning, but does anyone know if fruit size increase can be linked to late thinning (notwithstanding total yield that can go down)? Maybe this is “normal”? Any comment welcome! Vincent Vincent Philion,M.Sc. agr. Microbiologiste Phytopathologiste pomiculture Institut de recherche et de développement en agro-environnement Research and Development Institute for the Agri-Environment www.irda.qc.ca Centre de recherche 335, Rang des Vingt-Cinq Est Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec) J3V 0G7 vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca Bureau: 450 653-7368 poste 350 Cellulaire: 514-623-8275 Skype: VENTURIA Télécopie: 450 653-1927 Verger expérimental 330, Rang des vingt-cinq Est Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec) J3V 4P6 Téléphone et télécopieur : 450 653-8375 Local pesticide: 450-653-7608 Pour nous trouver, cliquer sur le lien: Laboratoire Verger Fiers héritiers du travail des frères Saint-Gabri : http://arboretum8gabrielis.wordpress.com Like most of the data I deal with, I'm best described as either zero inflated Poisson, or zero inflated negative binomial. Anything but Normal. Un expert est une personne qui a fait toutes les erreurs qui peuvent être faites dans un domaine très étroit. ~ Niels Bohr C'est pas parce qu'ils sont nombreux à avoir tort qu'ils ont raison… ~ Coluche To call in the statistician after the experiment is done may be no more than asking him to perform a post-mortem examination: he may be able to say what the experiment died of. ~ Sir Ronald Aylmer Fisher The plural of anecdote is not data. ~ Roger Brinner The combination of some data and an aching desire for an answer does not ensure that a reasonable answer can be extracted from a given body of data. ~ John Tukey Prediction is difficult, especially of the future. ~ Mark Twain (also attributed to Niels Bohr and Yogi Berra) There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. ~ Mark Twain or Disraeli Without deviation from the norm, Progress is not possible. ~ Frank Zappa If you don’t know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else. ~ Yogi Berra You can see a lot just by looking. ~ Yogi Berra Poor, but proudly at the highest step I'm qualified for. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle Inhibiteur de rodomontades depuis 1992. Ce que l'on conçoit bien s'énonce clairement, et les mots pour le dire arrivent aisément. ~ Nicolas Boileau-Despréaux Vingt fois sur le métier remettez votre ouvrage ~ Nicolas Boileau-Despréaux Keep your stick on the ice ~ The Red Green show Quid quid latine dictum sit, altim videtur. ~ Stéphane Laporte Audi alteram partem Qui potest capere capiat AVIS DE CONFIDENTIALITÉ Ce message peut contenir de l'information de nature privilégiée et confidentielle. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire visé ou croyez l'avoir reçu par erreur, nous vous saurions gré d'en aviser l'émetteur. Si ce message vous a été transmis par erreur, veuillez le détruire sans en communiquer le contenu à d'autres personnes ou le reproduire ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop ___ apple-crop mailing list apple-crop@virtualorchard.net http://virtualorchard.net/mailman/listinfo/apple-crop
Re: [apple-crop] Late summer drop and fruit size
Hello Vincent, Did you control for tree size, by means of, for instance, calculating yield per trunk cross sectional area. If you did not, then your bigger trees, which by definition became bigger because they were more vigorous, might be expected to carry larger fruits (even if Total fruits per tree is greater (but not too much greater)), by virtue of their vigorous nature. Con From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net on behalf of Vincent Philion Sent: Mon 13/01/2014 17:12 To: Apple-Crop Subject: [apple-crop] Late summer drop and fruit size Hello, I'm analyzing some data and I have seemingly contradictory results. I'm hoping someone can comment and make sense of this: For a number of randomly selected trees, fruit drop was recorded starting late summer until harvest. For each tree, we recorded total fruit drop (and weight), harvested fruit (and weight) and the total (drop + harvest). As I was looking at the data, I noticed average harvested fruit size (weight/number) was related to Total fruits per tree... Nothing strange, until I realized harvested fruit size INCREASED with Total fruit number on tree. As if the fruit dropping left more energy for the remaining fruits to grow? I was expecting harvested fruit size to be smaller on trees that had more total fruit, not the other way around. I'm not sure this late natural fruit drop can be compared to very late hand thinning, but does anyone know if fruit size increase can be linked to late thinning (notwithstanding total yield that can go down)? Maybe this is normal? Any comment welcome! Vincent http://www.irda.qc.ca/assets/client/img/logo.png Vincent Philion,M.Sc. agr. Microbiologiste Phytopathologiste pomiculture Institut de recherche et de développement en agro-environnement Research and Development Institute for the Agri-Environment www.irda.qc.ca http://www.irda.qc.ca/ Centre de recherche 335, Rang des Vingt-Cinq Est Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec) J3V 0G7 vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca Bureau: 450 653-7368 poste 350 Cellulaire: 514-623-8275 Skype: VENTURIA Télécopie: 450 653-1927 Verger expérimental 330, Rang des vingt-cinq Est Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec) J3V 4P6 Téléphone et télécopieur : 450 653-8375 Local pesticide: 450-653-7608 Pour nous trouver, cliquer sur le lien: Laboratoire https://plus.google.com/113874173074370918274/about?gl=CAhl=fr-CA Verger https://www.google.ca/maps/preview#!q=verger+irdadata=!4m15!2m14!1m13!1s0x4cc9016b3e604b3d:0x9e4816f2e6bea640!3m8!1m3!1d212357!2d-71.3416925!3d46.8563685!3m2!1i1324!2i934!4f13.1!4m2!3d45.543389!4d-73.341551 Fiers héritiers du travail des frères Saint-Gabri : http://arboretum8gabrielis.wordpress.com http://arboretum8gabrielis.wordpress.com/ Like most of the data I deal with, I'm best described as either zero inflated Poisson, or zero inflated negative binomial. Anything but Normal. Un expert est une personne qui a fait toutes les erreurs qui peuvent être faites dans un domaine très étroit. ~ Niels Bohr C'est pas parce qu'ils sont nombreux à avoir tort qu'ils ont raison... ~ Coluche To call in the statistician after the experiment is done may be no more than asking him to perform a post-mortem examination: he may be able to say what the experiment died of. ~ Sir Ronald Aylmer Fisher The plural of anecdote is not data. ~ Roger Brinner The combination of some data and an aching desire for an answer does not ensure that a reasonable answer can be extracted from a given body of data. ~ John Tukey Prediction is difficult, especially of the future. ~ Mark Twain (also attributed to Niels Bohr and Yogi Berra) There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. ~ Mark Twain or Disraeli Without deviation from the norm, Progress is not possible. ~ Frank Zappa If you don't know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else. ~ Yogi Berra You can see a lot just by looking. ~ Yogi Berra Poor, but proudly at the highest step I'm qualified for. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Principle Inhibiteur de rodomontades depuis 1992. Ce que l'on conçoit bien s'énonce clairement, et les mots pour le dire arrivent aisément. ~ Nicolas Boileau-Despréaux Vingt fois sur le métier remettez votre ouvrage ~ Nicolas Boileau-Despréaux Keep your stick on the ice ~ The Red Green show Quid quid latine dictum sit, altim videtur. ~ Stéphane Laporte Audi alteram partem Qui potest capere capiat AVIS DE CONFIDENTIALITÉ Ce message peut contenir de l'information de nature privilégiée et confidentielle. Si vous n'êtes pas le destinataire visé ou croyez l'avoir reçu par erreur, nous vous saurions gré d'en aviser l'émetteur. Si ce message vous a été transmis par erreur, veuillez le détruire sans en communiquer le contenu à d'autres personnes ou le reproduire
Re: [apple-crop] Late summer drop and fruit size
Vincent, You did not mention the variety you are working with, and it may or may not be relevant. Some varieties adapt well to a multi-pick system where remaining fruit increases in size when the largest are harvested. I suppose drop is a type of harvest. Some variety/rootstock/location combinations seem determined to produce a certain size apple regardless of crop load, rainfall, pruning or thinning. Did you also note vegetative growth of the tree? Some trees for me seem to devote more energy to starting vegetative growth under light crop load and then continue the vegetative growth at the expense of fruit size. A tree that is heavily loaded early may choose not to sprout new shoots and devote all energy to crop. (similar to results of Apogee) Is it plausible that as the number of fruit increase the energy devoted to crop growth increases? Crop load may stress some varieties into a higher output mode. In my experience results from very late hand thinning are VERY variety specific. Ernest Rollins 207-717-7057 Rollins Orchards 262 Dexter Rd Garland, Maine 207-924-3504 www.rollinsorchards.com From: apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net [mailto:apple-crop-boun...@virtualorchard.net] On Behalf Of Vincent Philion Sent: Monday, January 13, 2014 12:12 PM To: Apple-Crop Subject: [apple-crop] Late summer drop and fruit size Hello, Im analyzing some data and I have seemingly contradictory results. Im hoping someone can comment and make sense of this: For a number of randomly selected trees, fruit drop was recorded starting late summer until harvest. For each tree, we recorded total fruit drop (and weight), harvested fruit (and weight) and the total (drop + harvest). As I was looking at the data, I noticed average harvested fruit size (weight/number) was related to Total fruits per tree Nothing strange, until I realized harvested fruit size INCREASED with Total fruit number on tree. As if the fruit dropping left more energy for the remaining fruits to grow? I was expecting harvested fruit size to be smaller on trees that had more total fruit, not the other way around. Im not sure this late natural fruit drop can be compared to very late hand thinning, but does anyone know if fruit size increase can be linked to late thinning (notwithstanding total yield that can go down)? Maybe this is normal? Any comment welcome! Vincent http://www.irda.qc.ca/assets/client/img/logo.png http://www.irda.qc.ca/assets/client/img/logo.png http://www.irda.qc.ca/assets/client/img/logo.png Vincent Philion,M.Sc. agr. Microbiologiste Phytopathologiste pomiculture Institut de recherche et de développement en agro-environnement Research and Development Institute for the Agri-Environment www.irda.qc.ca http://www.irda.qc.ca/ Centre de recherche 335, Rang des Vingt-Cinq Est Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec) J3V 0G7 vincent.phil...@irda.qc.ca Bureau: 450 653-7368 poste 350 Cellulaire: 514-623-8275 Skype: VENTURIA Télécopie: 450 653-1927 Verger expérimental 330, Rang des vingt-cinq Est Saint-Bruno-de-Montarville (Québec) J3V 4P6 Téléphone et télécopieur : 450 653-8375 Local pesticide: 450-653-7608 Pour nous trouver, cliquer sur le lien: Laboratoire https://plus.google.com/113874173074370918274/about?gl=CAhl=fr-CA Verger https://www.google.ca/maps/preview#!q=verger+irdadata=!4m15!2m14!1m13!1s0x 4cc9016b3e604b3d:0x9e4816f2e6bea640!3m8!1m3!1d212357!2d-71.3416925!3d46.8563 685!3m2!1i1324!2i934!4f13.1!4m2!3d45.543389!4d-73.341551 Fiers héritiers du travail des frères Saint-Gabri : http://arboretum8gabrielis.wordpress.com http://arboretum8gabrielis.wordpress.com/ Like most of the data I deal with, I'm best described as either zero inflated Poisson, or zero inflated negative binomial. Anything but Normal. Un expert est une personne qui a fait toutes les erreurs qui peuvent être faites dans un domaine très étroit. ~ Niels Bohr C'est pas parce qu'ils sont nombreux à avoir tort qu'ils ont raison ~ Coluche To call in the statistician after the experiment is done may be no more than asking him to perform a post-mortem examination: he may be able to say what the experiment died of. ~ Sir Ronald Aylmer Fisher The plural of anecdote is not data. ~ Roger Brinner The combination of some data and an aching desire for an answer does not ensure that a reasonable answer can be extracted from a given body of data. ~ John Tukey Prediction is difficult, especially of the future. ~ Mark Twain (also attributed to Niels Bohr and Yogi Berra) There are three kinds of lies: lies, damned lies, and statistics. ~ Mark Twain or Disraeli Without deviation from the norm, Progress is not possible. ~ Frank Zappa If you dont know where you are going, you will wind up somewhere else. ~ Yogi Berra You can see a lot just by
