Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men...
On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 21:56 -0500, Reza - Asterisk Enthusiast wrote: Thanks to the de-regulation of the industry... its provided the smaller guys for greater opportunities... and if the big guns like Bell, Allstream and others are not quick to change -- they will loose millions in revenue. They already are. Just a small bit of clarification; the industry has not been deregulated. Far from it. In almost every area of Canada the rates the ILEC charges is set artificially high to encourage competition. Up until recently the ILECs were not allowed to compete on price for any wireline service. However, with the introduction and subsequent success of cable VoIP (Rogers, Shaw, etc), most residential service in Canada where cable VoIP exists is now free from economic (price) regulation. Note that this applies to residential, not business service. In the above described scenario; Bell is the ILEC, Allstream is the CLEC. Bell is price regulated; Allstream is not. Regards, -- John Lange President Canadian Association of Voice Over IP Service Providers. 1-866-940-CAVP (2287) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men...
Its the regulations that allow ITSPs to compete with the regulated phone companies. If it wasn't regulated, companies like Bell and Telus could sell VoIP lines for a fraction of what they do now whenever competition got stiff and not have to worry about selling it with a certain minimum set of guarantees and conditions to resellers. The only companies that would survive are the ones that owned the last mile. Telecom deregulation is a very bad thing, almost as bad as having a tiered internet. In the short run it would help consumers because of the cut throat ways the ILECS and other last mile providers would ruin their competition, but in the long run it would hurt them as no new companies would risk venturing into this space. We should actually have more regulations to stop the obvious telecom collusion and open up more elements of the networks to others, specially pertaining to DSL and WISP services. --- Shidan On Dec 7, 2007 12:42 PM, Bill Sandiford [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reza: I think when most people refer to de-regulation in the industry they are referring to the CRTC telling the incumbents what they can and cannot sell you and at what price. The only reason most ITSPs are in business (apart from intelligence and business savvy) is because the CRTC decided (with a few small exceptions ie 911, etc) not to regulate VoIP (unless it was being sold by an ILEC) Bill - Original Message - From: Reza - Asterisk Enthusiast [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: John Lange [EMAIL PROTECTED]; asterisk@uc.org Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men... John: Just a small bit of clarification; the industry has not been deregulated. Far from it. Can you please clarify? Are you 100% sure the industry has not be de-regulated? There was a time when one could not be an ITSP or small companies could not provide phone services with their own equipment. No one could provide phone services other than the ILEC or the CLEC. Speaking with the guys at Industry Canada / CRTC -- anyone can apply for licenses these days and when you pay the right fee with the correct paper work submission, obtaining a license is relatively straight forward. Becoming a CLEC is a different story. If the industry was not de-regulated... then as per your claim, we are doing illegal business. Are you talking about De-regulation as in regulating prices. If that's the case I completely agree with you. When I am using the term De-regulation, I mean anyone can be a telephone company or an ITSP these days regardless of them being an ILEC and CLEC. Please provide your thoughts and feedback on this when you have a chance. Best, Reza. - Original Message - From: John Lange [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: asterisk@uc.org Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men... On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 21:56 -0500, Reza - Asterisk Enthusiast wrote: Thanks to the de-regulation of the industry... its provided the smaller guys for greater opportunities... and if the big guns like Bell, Allstream and others are not quick to change -- they will loose millions in revenue. They already are. Just a small bit of clarification; the industry has not been deregulated. Far from it. In almost every area of Canada the rates the ILEC charges is set artificially high to encourage competition. Up until recently the ILECs were not allowed to compete on price for any wireline service. However, with the introduction and subsequent success of cable VoIP (Rogers, Shaw, etc), most residential service in Canada where cable VoIP exists is now free from economic (price) regulation. Note that this applies to residential, not business service. In the above described scenario; Bell is the ILEC, Allstream is the CLEC. Bell is price regulated; Allstream is not. Regards, -- John Lange President Canadian Association of Voice Over IP Service Providers. 1-866-940-CAVP (2287) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men...
Reza: I think when most people refer to de-regulation in the industry they are referring to the CRTC telling the incumbents what they can and cannot sell you and at what price. The only reason most ITSPs are in business (apart from intelligence and business savvy) is because the CRTC decided (with a few small exceptions ie 911, etc) not to regulate VoIP (unless it was being sold by an ILEC) Bill - Original Message - From: Reza - Asterisk Enthusiast [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: John Lange [EMAIL PROTECTED]; asterisk@uc.org Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 12:08 PM Subject: Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men... John: Just a small bit of clarification; the industry has not been deregulated. Far from it. Can you please clarify? Are you 100% sure the industry has not be de-regulated? There was a time when one could not be an ITSP or small companies could not provide phone services with their own equipment. No one could provide phone services other than the ILEC or the CLEC. Speaking with the guys at Industry Canada / CRTC -- anyone can apply for licenses these days and when you pay the right fee with the correct paper work submission, obtaining a license is relatively straight forward. Becoming a CLEC is a different story. If the industry was not de-regulated... then as per your claim, we are doing illegal business. Are you talking about De-regulation as in regulating prices. If that's the case I completely agree with you. When I am using the term De-regulation, I mean anyone can be a telephone company or an ITSP these days regardless of them being an ILEC and CLEC. Please provide your thoughts and feedback on this when you have a chance. Best, Reza. - Original Message - From: John Lange [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: asterisk@uc.org Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men... On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 21:56 -0500, Reza - Asterisk Enthusiast wrote: Thanks to the de-regulation of the industry... its provided the smaller guys for greater opportunities... and if the big guns like Bell, Allstream and others are not quick to change -- they will loose millions in revenue. They already are. Just a small bit of clarification; the industry has not been deregulated. Far from it. In almost every area of Canada the rates the ILEC charges is set artificially high to encourage competition. Up until recently the ILECs were not allowed to compete on price for any wireline service. However, with the introduction and subsequent success of cable VoIP (Rogers, Shaw, etc), most residential service in Canada where cable VoIP exists is now free from economic (price) regulation. Note that this applies to residential, not business service. In the above described scenario; Bell is the ILEC, Allstream is the CLEC. Bell is price regulated; Allstream is not. Regards, -- John Lange President Canadian Association of Voice Over IP Service Providers. 1-866-940-CAVP (2287) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men...
John: Thanks a million for getting all this clarified! Looks like I have to make some corrections on my future slide presentations and be a little bit more specific about regulation and de-regulation. Cheers! Reza. - Original Message - From: John Lange [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Reza - Asterisk Enthusiast [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: asterisk@uc.org Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 3:16 PM Subject: Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men... On Fri, 2007-12-07 at 12:08 -0500, Reza - Asterisk Enthusiast wrote: John: Just a small bit of clarification; the industry has not been deregulated. Far from it. Can you please clarify? Are you 100% sure the industry has not be de-regulated? 100% sure. There was a time when one could not be an ITSP or small companies could not provide phone services with their own equipment. No one could provide phone services other than the ILEC or the CLEC. Technically, the same still holds true today. Speaking with the guys at Industry Canada / CRTC -- anyone can apply for licenses these days and when you pay the right fee with the correct paper work submission, obtaining a license is relatively straight forward. If there was no regulation then you wouldn't have to apply for a license. What you just described is a regulatory process. Becoming a CLEC is a different story. If the industry was not de-regulated... then as per your claim, we are doing illegal business. If you were operating as a CLEC or an ILEC without a license then it would be illegal. But all VoIP providers that I'm aware of are operating as Resellers. Never the less, if you are a reseller you still have to be registered at the CRTC or you are operating illegally. (Registration can be done online and it's free.) Are you talking about De-regulation as in regulating prices. If that's the case I completely agree with you. There are varying levels and types of deregulation. What the CRTC typically does is forbear from regulating prices which technically isn't the same as deregulating but looks a lot like it. Resellers are technically not regulated at all because the law which dictates what the CRTC can regulate doesn't mention reselling. However, they do regulate the LECs and indirectly they exert control over the resellers. So for example; the CRTC tells the LECs that they should disconnect any reseller that doesn't provide 911 service. When I am using the term De-regulation, I mean anyone can be a telephone company or an ITSP these days regardless of them being an ILEC and CLEC. Anyone can be a CLEC provided you obtain the proper licenses and follow the rules (and have about 2.5 million to drop on the necessary equipment etc.) Please provide your thoughts and feedback on this when you have a chance. Back in the 80s 90s the CRTC changed the regulations to allow competition in long distance and for local service. -- John Lange President Canadian Association of Voice Over IP Service Providers. 1-866-940-CAVP (2287) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men...
| From: D. Hugh Redelmeier [EMAIL PROTECTED] | It turns out that encryption is easy but authentication is hard. I forgot to mention traffic analysis. This is a very powerful tool and difficult or expensive to protect against. The pen register stuff is all about traffic analysis. To avoid traffic analysis while communicating: - use covert channels - hide your real traffic within bogus traffic (must be indistinguishable). Requires a lot of traffic so this tends to be expensive. - hide your traffic within a cloud of other traffic (must be indistinguishable). This suggests aggregation but aggregation tends to work against the end-to-end security I prefer. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men...
On Fri, 2007-12-07 at 12:08 -0500, Reza - Asterisk Enthusiast wrote: John: Just a small bit of clarification; the industry has not been deregulated. Far from it. Can you please clarify? Are you 100% sure the industry has not be de-regulated? 100% sure. There was a time when one could not be an ITSP or small companies could not provide phone services with their own equipment. No one could provide phone services other than the ILEC or the CLEC. Technically, the same still holds true today. Speaking with the guys at Industry Canada / CRTC -- anyone can apply for licenses these days and when you pay the right fee with the correct paper work submission, obtaining a license is relatively straight forward. If there was no regulation then you wouldn't have to apply for a license. What you just described is a regulatory process. Becoming a CLEC is a different story. If the industry was not de-regulated... then as per your claim, we are doing illegal business. If you were operating as a CLEC or an ILEC without a license then it would be illegal. But all VoIP providers that I'm aware of are operating as Resellers. Never the less, if you are a reseller you still have to be registered at the CRTC or you are operating illegally. (Registration can be done online and it's free.) Are you talking about De-regulation as in regulating prices. If that's the case I completely agree with you. There are varying levels and types of deregulation. What the CRTC typically does is forbear from regulating prices which technically isn't the same as deregulating but looks a lot like it. Resellers are technically not regulated at all because the law which dictates what the CRTC can regulate doesn't mention reselling. However, they do regulate the LECs and indirectly they exert control over the resellers. So for example; the CRTC tells the LECs that they should disconnect any reseller that doesn't provide 911 service. When I am using the term De-regulation, I mean anyone can be a telephone company or an ITSP these days regardless of them being an ILEC and CLEC. Anyone can be a CLEC provided you obtain the proper licenses and follow the rules (and have about 2.5 million to drop on the necessary equipment etc.) Please provide your thoughts and feedback on this when you have a chance. Back in the 80s 90s the CRTC changed the regulations to allow competition in long distance and for local service. -- John Lange President Canadian Association of Voice Over IP Service Providers. 1-866-940-CAVP (2287) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men...
| From: Philip Mullis [EMAIL PROTECTED] | | As Bill stated IPSEC is a good way,if your uber paranoid other flavours of vpn | pptp etc.. not so good as the initial handshakes can be capture then you can | have a man-in-the-middle scenario, weve been use IPSEC here for over a year | and I can testify to its solidness, we use it to connect all our international | offices. The IPSec protocol was designed to prevent man-in-the-middle attacks. All it takes is authentication. The protocol always requires authentication (but of course you can weaken authentication enough to make it disappear). It turns out that encryption is easy but authentication is hard. Authentication requires pre-arranged methods of communicating authentication material, causing a kind of chicken-and-egg situation. Something like a phone book with public keys would be a reasonable way of distributing authentication material. But how do you convince yourself that the phone book has not been subverted? What you need to use depends on your threat model. Well, it actually depends on your real threats, not the ones you imagine. My threat models mean that I want end-to-end encryption. That makes authentication harder because there is an open-ended set of nodes that I want to authenticate. The FreeS/WAN project had a novel way of configuring IPSec to allow behind-the-scenes end-to-end IPSec without pre-arrangement between the parties. It authenticated based on IP address as identity and used the reverse domain (DNS) to distribute public keys. That now seems insufficient since many endpoints have dynamic IP addresses and many lack control of the reverse for their IP address. | Its not hard to setup either just requires extra equipment, and if your a law | office or otherwise, it would offer even greater security than copper :/ now | thats a spin for voip resellers to kick the bell muscle man in the ba**s with. | :) End-user to ITSP IPSec is easy, at least in theory. The Openswan project has deployed their IPSec code in OpenWRT routers (like the Asus WL-500gP). If the PAP2 was open source, and had a bit of spare room, it could probably run Openswan IPSec. Any asterisk box should be able to run Openswan. At the ITSP end, it is also easy. It would take extra hardware if many customers used it. At least for experimental implementation, no hardware would be needed (until their was a high uptake of the offering). As I understand it, the Openswan project offered to deploy IPSec for a local ITSP (for free, I think) but the ITSP was not interested. I find that interest in cryptography is really hard to gauge. Lots of people say they want it but few actually bother. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men...
John: Just a small bit of clarification; the industry has not been deregulated. Far from it. Can you please clarify? Are you 100% sure the industry has not be de-regulated? There was a time when one could not be an ITSP or small companies could not provide phone services with their own equipment. No one could provide phone services other than the ILEC or the CLEC. Speaking with the guys at Industry Canada / CRTC -- anyone can apply for licenses these days and when you pay the right fee with the correct paper work submission, obtaining a license is relatively straight forward. Becoming a CLEC is a different story. If the industry was not de-regulated... then as per your claim, we are doing illegal business. Are you talking about De-regulation as in regulating prices. If that's the case I completely agree with you. When I am using the term De-regulation, I mean anyone can be a telephone company or an ITSP these days regardless of them being an ILEC and CLEC. Please provide your thoughts and feedback on this when you have a chance. Best, Reza. - Original Message - From: John Lange [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: asterisk@uc.org Sent: Friday, December 07, 2007 9:52 AM Subject: Re: [on-asterisk] Scary Call from Bell Muscle Men... On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 21:56 -0500, Reza - Asterisk Enthusiast wrote: Thanks to the de-regulation of the industry... its provided the smaller guys for greater opportunities... and if the big guns like Bell, Allstream and others are not quick to change -- they will loose millions in revenue. They already are. Just a small bit of clarification; the industry has not been deregulated. Far from it. In almost every area of Canada the rates the ILEC charges is set artificially high to encourage competition. Up until recently the ILECs were not allowed to compete on price for any wireline service. However, with the introduction and subsequent success of cable VoIP (Rogers, Shaw, etc), most residential service in Canada where cable VoIP exists is now free from economic (price) regulation. Note that this applies to residential, not business service. In the above described scenario; Bell is the ILEC, Allstream is the CLEC. Bell is price regulated; Allstream is not. Regards, -- John Lange President Canadian Association of Voice Over IP Service Providers. 1-866-940-CAVP (2287) - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
