[Aus-soaring] Perlan Project

[Anthony Smith]

For those interested:

 

http://www.airbusgroup.com/int/en/news-media/Events/Airbus-Perlan-Mission-2.
html  

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Aerodynamics

[Anthony Smith]

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter Champness
Sent: Monday, 31 August 2015 6:57 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aerodynamics

 

What if you are not the manufacturer, but your aircraft is registered as 
experimental.  Does that give you the freedom to experiment? 

 

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 3:42 PM, Mark Newton  > wrote:

There's plenty of guidance from SAAA.

 

If you’ve built an EAB aircraft, you’re the manufacturer, you’re the authority 
that approves modifications. So if you want to put a camera mount on it, you 
just need to give due consideration in the design to make sure it doesn’t fall 
off (same as any other airframe part), test fly it, and get happy.

 

  - mark

 

 

On Aug 31, 2015, at 2:46 PM, Peter Champness  > wrote:

 

Is there a CASA web page about experimental aircraft phase 1 testing?

 

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 8:47 AM, Mark Newton  > wrote:

On 27 Aug 2015, at 10:50 am, Ross McLean  > wrote:

 

Beautiful!

And despite what CASA says, these guys had no problems mounting GoPro's on the 
wings.

 

It’s an Experimental. CASA is happy for you to mount as many gopros on the 
wings of those as you like, as long as they undergo the same phase-1 testing as 
the rest of the airframe.

 

 

  - mark

 

 


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[Aus-soaring] More bad news

[Anthony Smith]

http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/search-for-crashed-light-plane
-in-wa/story-e6frfku9-1227327992249 

 

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[Aus-soaring] Bad news reporting

[Anthony Smith]

Sorry, my bad.

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Nick
Gilbert
Sent: Thursday, 30 April 2015 1:31 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] More bad news

 

Still bad news, but...

 



Sent from my iPhone


On 30 Apr 2015, at 12:57 pm, Anthony Smith anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net
mailto:anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net  wrote:

http://www.news.com.au/national/breaking-news/search-for-crashed-light-plane
-in-wa/story-e6frfku9-1227327992249 

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy

[Anthony Smith]

Not a failure as such.  But I did do a flight in a club aircraft with only an 
airspeed indicator,  altimeter and a radio functional.  I knew that was all 
that was working at take-off though.  I flew in thermals for over an hour.

 

Fortunately the launch before mine marked a thermal for me.  But I managed to 
feel my way around the sky from there.  Did wonders for my early thermalling 
skills.

 

Anthony

 

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of James Dutschke
Sent: Monday, 27 April 2015 7:25 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] varios, redundancy

 

Straw poll.

 

Has anyone, had a vario failure. 


Sent from my iPhone


On 27 Apr 2015, at 19:14, Nick Gilbert cirru...@gmail.com 
mailto:cirru...@gmail.com  wrote:

Surely a backup electric vario is a more useful backup than a mechanical? With 
its own emergency battery you get a backup audio and averager as well as the 
needle. With all the stress that goes with a power failure having to stare at 
the instrument would make things worse. 

 

Nick

 


On 27 Apr 2015, at 5:41 pm, Peter Champness plchampn...@gmail.com 
mailto:plchampn...@gmail.com  wrote:

I have just been choosing instruments for a new glider.

 

I did wonder for a moment after reading Adam's post whether I had wasted money 
on the Winter Vario.

 

However I agree with Mike.  A set on basic instruments (redundancy) is good 
insurance.  In my case I have something in case of electrical failure.

 

No doubt thermal can be found and used without any instruments, but it 
difficult.

 

On Mon, Apr 27, 2015 at 5:32 PM, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com 
mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com  wrote:

At 08:14 AM 27/04/2015, you wrote:

There’s no need for a winter backup now

Maybe not a Winter vario as backup but you should have a backup. Adam's advice 
is probably the silliest thing I've read in a long time.

The only time you may reasonably want to rely on one vario is in a motorglider 
if you are prepared to start the motor and fly home if the single vario fails.

Too bad if you are half way round a 500km triangle and set to win the Nationals 
if you do reasonably this day.

For the paleo engineless gliders you are likely to risk an outlanding with its 
attendant hazards. Pretty stupid to risk breaking your glider or yourself over 
lack of a backup.

If you are serious about competition you should be equipped to cope with single 
failures of equipment. Most people carry two flight recorders for good reason.

A main navigation system and some reasonable backup is also necessary. Hint: 
fly with the backups working. The time to find out they have failed is NOT when 
you've had another failure.

The backup vario may also have a different speed of response and  will likely 
just display TE vario. Your primary should be showing netto (airmass) or 
relative netto ( airmass offset down by the sink rate in circling flight - this 
means it always shows the rate of climb you would get if you slowed down and 
circled, no matter your current airspeed). The two varios may show slightly 
different information without changing modes which can be useful.

We've all had even modern electronic equipment fail. Phones, PC's GPS , etc 
etc. It is pretty good nowadays but anyone doing what Adam says is tempting 
fate, Murphy's Law and what a physics teacher of mine called the innate 
cussedness of inanimate matter.

When you decide to use a backup you might like to consider that the Winter 
doesn't have an audio or an averager. Do you really want to be sharing thermals 
with other gliders without an audio? If flying cross country you would find you 
would miss the averager.

If you have a backup electronic vario it should have its own independent backup 
power supply. While a glider electrical system can be fused properly so that 
the radio for example developing an internal short doesn't take out the main 
battery fuse (and if everything dies because of this or similar , are you going 
to simply flip the switch to battery 2 and take out *its* fuse also?) I suspect 
many aren't.

If you decide to join the 21st century for your backup vario get in touch and 
I'll sell you something you'll be happy to fly with when you need it. 

Mike












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Borgelt Instruments - design  manufacture of quality soaring instrumentation 
since 1978
www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ 
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 


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[Aus-soaring] Airbus article on Perlan

[Anthony Smith]

Follow the link.

 

http://www.airbusgroup.com/int/en/news-media/Key-Documents/FORUM-magazine.ht
ml  

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Bolts

[Anthony Smith]

G'day Graham

 

I posted the original request.

 

Fortunately no-one responded with the 'Bunnings Aerospace' answer.   ; )

 

I understand the specs required and SAGA has an arrangement in place with
Coventry Fasteners for the supply of these to SA owners.

 

My problem is with the shank length.  The 6mm bolts readily available
through reputable suppliers come in 5mm increments.  I have a number of
bolted connections where the nearest bolt size is ~1mm or so too short.
Going up a size to get sufficient shank length means having some 4 washers
onto the end of the bolt.  Very annoying.  I have heard through the grape
vine that others had experienced similar problems on some aircraft. It may
well be that you can get the DIN 931 bolts in Europe in shorter increments.

 

The aircraft spec 6mm  bolts come in shank length increments of 1 or 2 mm
(depending on bolt length).  The thread length is also 10mm, which is
substantially shorter than the 20mm of the readily available bolts and saves
having to hack saw off the excess.  There are also options to have holes in
the thread for split pins and/or holes in the bolt head for lock wire.

 

I have identified too European aircraft bolt part numbers that may suit.
EN2889-060XXX is a 6mm aircraft bolt equivalent of the DIN931 (the XXX
refers to the shank length) and has very similar tolerances on the
dimensions.  Minor exception is that it is 900 MPa rather than 800 MPa in
strength.

 

The other is EN2859-060XXX.  This is an 1100MPa bolt with a close tolerance
shank.  This is my preferred bolt as the close tolerance shank will have a
much better fit with bearings and lugs and will reduce slop in the control
system a tad.  No doubt the higher strength and the tighter tolerances will
result in a higher price per bolt.

 

I have approached the logisiticians who work next door at Airbus Group
Australia Pacific and they are happy to quote a price on the supply of the
bolts.  I will discuss further with the SA RTO-Air if we want to find some
of the common shank lengths that are typically needed and see if we can
bring a batch into the country at a reasonable price.

 

Regards

 

Anthony

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Graham
Holland
Sent: Tuesday, 17 March 2015 8:59 AM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Bolts

 

A recent posting revealed some difficulty in sourcing bolts for gliders. I
didn't think they were that arcane. Basic Sailplane Engineering (BSE) says
that All German and some other European gliders use bolts that have been
manufactured to a DIN specification. (p.1.5.1) and that the most common
bolt meets DIN 931. So how easy is it to buy such a bolt? 

Din 931 has been superseded by ISO 4014-2011, Hexagon head bolts-product
grade A and B. This is identical to AS 1110.1-2000, ISO metric hexagon
headed bolts and screws - product grade A and B - bolts. Many Australian
fastener suppliers such as Coventry Fasteners (aka Konnect), Tower Fasteners
and James Glen supply high tensile steel bolts to AS 1110.1. Stainless steel
bolts to DIN 931 are also available. So it seems to be more a matter of
bolts for aircraft rather than aircraft bolts.

I would expect glider manufacturers to specify bolts, but I could not find
any reference to a bolt specification in the maintenance manual for the Duo
Discus and PW5 (they were to hand). Where would it be?

Graham

 

Graham Holland
27 Johnston Crescent
Lane Cove NSW 2066
Australia
02 9427 3282
grahamholl...@iinet.net.au mailto:grahamholl...@iinet.net.au 

 

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[Aus-soaring] Design Approval Procedures Manual

[Anthony Smith]

Hi all 

 

Has anyone been able to download the latest version (Issue 3) of the Design
Approval Procedures Manual from the GFA web site yet?  Or is it not yet
released?

 

Regards

 

Anthony

 

 

 

 

5.   Design Approvals Procedures Manual (DAPM)

Mike Burns has concluded a contract under the Airworthiness Development
Program to draft and have approved by CASA a Design Approvals Procedures
Manual (DAPM). This is Issue 3 of the DAPM dated December 2014 and is
endorsed by CASA for immediate use and has been approved by the GFA Board.

When a non-standard modification, repair or replacement part is introduced
to a certified sailplane or powered sailplane, (operated under GFA) the
Certificate of Airworthiness will be invalidated, but can be re-instated
provided that the non-standard modification or repair has been Design
Approved.

The DAPM outlines the procedures that enable (under CASA REG21.M) an
Authorised Person to provide Design Approval thereby revalidating the
sailplane's or powered sailplane's original Certificate of Airworthiness.

See the DAPM on the GFA web page under Docs/Forms to see what is involved.
However, this is a guide to the Engineers more than to you the member.

An Applicant, seeking Design Approval for a project, will start by
completing GFA Form AIRW_F009 and submitting it to the GFA CAD for
registration . Maintenance persons may also apply for repair approvals to
enable major repairs. The application should be made after informal
investigation of the project proposal with either the CAD, CTO or a 21.M AP
to ensure that there is no pre-existing work that could be utilised and that
what is proposed, is feasible, with no obvious adverse influences on
airworthiness or safety. Where possible, consultation with the original
sailplane manufacturer is appropriate.

NOTE: It is not expected that the Applicant will have fully detailed
engineering data available at the application stage, that will be developed
by the Applicant and the allocated 21.M AP as the design approval is
processed.

Work performed by the 21.M AP will typically be paid for by the person
requesting the Design Approval.

Note that if you proceed with a significant modification it does invalidate
the CoA. Please discuss. We may be able to issue you an Experimental
Certificate to enable you to experiment if you wish to take the risk.
However, to return it to CoA status is only possible using the Design
Approval process if the Engineers can approve what you have done - no
guarantee.



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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wool tuft testing

[Anthony Smith]

Something that may help Adam more for LE fairings is this: 

 

http://www.icas.org/ICAS_ARCHIVE/ICAS2002/PAPERS/294.PDF  

 

 

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike
Borgelt
Sent: Tuesday, 10 March 2015 5:15 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Wool tuft testing

 

Take a look at the root fairings on the P-38

http://www.gayot.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/04/lockheed-p-38-lightning
.jpg 


Note the fairing is at the leading edge. Particularly noticeable on the wing
to fuselage but also on the wing to booms.

No  fairing  or fillet at the TE.  Fixed an airflow problem apparently. A
more blended wing/body junction may have some merit.

Mike

 

At 01:54 PM 10/03/2015, you wrote:



G'day Anthony,

Thanks for your detailed reply, lots to think about  plan for. I'm going to
wool tuft test the wing root of my Ventus, as I want to improve on the
lamina flow  induced drag in that area, which ultimately will help with
climbing  handling.

Once I discover the separation points, I plan to 'fix it'..

Guessing I'll need to view the tufts at thermalling speeds/bank,  at my
usual cruise speeds.


Cheers,
WPP


 On 9 Mar 2015, at 18:38, Anthony Smith anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net
mailto:anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net  wrote:
 
 Adam
 
 I have done it on the wing tip of a large military aircraft.
 
 Wing loading is only a problem if you have a particular issue that is wing
 loading related.  In essence what are you looking for?  Is it Reynolds
 Number related or is it Angle of Attack related?  Or both?
 
 Wool lengths need to be visible to the camera or observer.  For my project
 we had a PC-9 as a chase plane with a photographer and video camera in the
 back seat.  So we had really big tufts. For your purpose, quite fine wool
 may work depending on how you plan to record the results. 
 
 You do not want the tufts to overlap.  Typical patterns have the end of
each
 tuft, a small gap and then the start of the tape adhering the next tuft.
 Lateral spacing is the same.  
 
 Wool thickness will depend on what speed you are operating at.  Also will
 depend on how visible you want it.  I used the thickest wool we could find
 in order to be visible to the camera.  Also we were operating at much
higher
 speeds than your average glider.  You will not need to be that thick.
Some
 simple experimenting with a range of wool sizes stuck to the wing root may
 give you an answer.
 
 How many tufts will depend on the length of the wool tuft.
 
 For my project, we adopted a diamond pattern.  This aligned really well
with
 some features on the wingtip that we wanted to study.  The size of the
 diamond was dictated by the length of the tuft and the features on the
 wingtip.A square pattern may work better for your problem.
 
 Installation:  You need to tie a knot in both ends of the wool tuft.  The
 knot under the tape helps to hold the tuft in place.  The knot in the free
 end stops the wool unravelling.  A simple knot will do.  Don't get carried
 away or the mass of the knot will affect the results.  A dob of super glue
 on the free end may also work just as well.  We used triangular pieces of
 fabric reinforced tape (instant airframe) to secure each tuft in place.
We
 had the point of the triangle faving forwards.  Wing gap tape with a good
 adhesive may suit you better.
 
 Some experimentation may be required.  However if you start off with
typical
 yaw string lengths you will not be far long.  You can also space them out
a
 bit initially (say at twice the tuft length) and then increase the density
 as you need to and where you need it.
 
 There appear to be plenty of photos if you google 'flow visualization
tuft'.
 
 Anthony
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
 [ mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net ] On Behalf Of Adam
 Woolley
 Sent: Monday, 9 March 2015 6:32 PM
 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
 Subject: [Aus-soaring] Wool tuft testing
 
 G'day all,
 
 Has anyone got any experience or thoughts on wool tuft testing a wing
root? 
 
 Does wing loading matter?
 What wool lengths  thickness is best?
 How many?
 What pattern?
 
 
 Cheers,
 WPP
 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Wool tuft testing

[Anthony Smith]

Adam

I have done it on the wing tip of a large military aircraft.

Wing loading is only a problem if you have a particular issue that is wing
loading related.  In essence what are you looking for?  Is it Reynolds
Number related or is it Angle of Attack related?  Or both?

Wool lengths need to be visible to the camera or observer.  For my project
we had a PC-9 as a chase plane with a photographer and video camera in the
back seat.  So we had really big tufts. For your purpose, quite fine wool
may work depending on how you plan to record the results. 

You do not want the tufts to overlap.  Typical patterns have the end of each
tuft, a small gap and then the start of the tape adhering the next tuft.
Lateral spacing is the same.  

Wool thickness will depend on what speed you are operating at.  Also will
depend on how visible you want it.  I used the thickest wool we could find
in order to be visible to the camera.  Also we were operating at much higher
speeds than your average glider.  You will not need to be that thick.  Some
simple experimenting with a range of wool sizes stuck to the wing root may
give you an answer.

How many tufts will depend on the length of the wool tuft.

For my project, we adopted a diamond pattern.  This aligned really well with
some features on the wingtip that we wanted to study.  The size of the
diamond was dictated by the length of the tuft and the features on the
wingtip.A square pattern may work better for your problem.

Installation:  You need to tie a knot in both ends of the wool tuft.  The
knot under the tape helps to hold the tuft in place.  The knot in the free
end stops the wool unravelling.  A simple knot will do.  Don't get carried
away or the mass of the knot will affect the results.  A dob of super glue
on the free end may also work just as well.  We used triangular pieces of
fabric reinforced tape (instant airframe) to secure each tuft in place.  We
had the point of the triangle faving forwards.  Wing gap tape with a good
adhesive may suit you better.

Some experimentation may be required.  However if you start off with typical
yaw string lengths you will not be far long.  You can also space them out a
bit initially (say at twice the tuft length) and then increase the density
as you need to and where you need it.

There appear to be plenty of photos if you google 'flow visualization tuft'.

Anthony


-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Adam
Woolley
Sent: Monday, 9 March 2015 6:32 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Wool tuft testing

G'day all,

Has anyone got any experience or thoughts on wool tuft testing a wing root? 

Does wing loading matter?
What wool lengths  thickness is best?
How many?
What pattern?


Cheers,
WPP

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[Aus-soaring] Aircraft spec metric bolts

[Anthony Smith]

Does anyone have a supplier for aircraft spec metric bolts - particularly
6mm diameter?

 

Examples of bolt part numbers would be:

EN2859-060XXX, or

NA0036-060XXX (where XXX is the shank length)

 

regards

 

Anthony

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[Aus-soaring] MORE: Tube rivets

[Anthony Smith]

All,

 

I have already had discussions with Katja at Schiebe Aircraft (which is a 
different company to the original Schiebe).  They suggest using 8mm bolts.

 

The story so far:

 

Schiebe regularly used the tube rivets to secure metal fittings to timber work 
– they look like hollow rivets.  Most obvious locations were the metal wing 
root fittings on the spar stubs and the fittings where the lift and drag pins 
were fitted to the wing root rib.  These tube rivets appear to have been made 
by Schiebe and not from a fastener manufacturer.

 

During the 10 yearly on GZQ we found the port and starboard elevator hinge 
fittings to have corrosion on them inside the horizontal stabiliser.  Each 
fitting is attached to a stub of timber which passes through the horizontal 
stabiliser spar web and is glued to a rib web.  The hinge fitting is attached 
the timber stub by a pair of these tube rivets.

 

The fittings have been removed (and I found damage to the timber stubs 
underneath). I need to replace the fittings – certainly the stbd one, the port 
one may be salvagable.  I fear that the using an 8mm bolt in lieu if the aft 
tube rivet on each fitting may foul the leading edge of the elevator – plus it 
is the heavier option.

 

Katja has kindly sent me photos of the tooling they currently use and supplied 
the detail on what steel tube to use.

 

Given the number of Motorfalkes around Oz, I was curious to see whether anyone 
had replaced these types of rivets and would hence have detail on the tooling 
and technique. 

 

Anthony

 

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ian Mc Phee
Sent: Friday, 30 January 2015 7:08 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Tube rivets

 

Suggest contact Katja at Scheibe but can say when removed the tubes have zero 
rust  have the original zinc Chromate in every case.  30 yrs ago we sampled 
one  used HT bolt through the centre of tube
Ian mcphee 

On 30/01/2015 12:42 PM, Anthony Smith anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net 
mailto:anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net  wrote:

Hi all

 

Does anyone have previous experience with replacing tube rivets on Scheibe 
aircraft eg Motorfalke, SF-27, Bergfalke or similar?

 

The tube rivets consist of 8mm (or other size) steel tube with each end rolled 
over.

 

I am particularly interested in the tooling and technique used.

 

Please contact me off list on  mailto:anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net 
anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net 

 

Regards

 

Anthony


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training

[Anthony Smith]

Actually, yes.  I must try that out sometime!


-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ulrich Stauss
Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 8:07 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training

Is this what you had in mind Anthony?
http://www.dg-flugzeugbau.de/index.php?id=seitenfaden-e

Ulrich
-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Anthony Smith
Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 16:49
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training

You probably could do something very easily for modern non-flapped gliders.  
AoA indicators have been around for a long time.  You could have three critical 
angles annotated on the device display: stall, climb and cruise.  Flapped 
gliders would need to have a method of knowing what the flap deflection is 
which would change these angles a bit depending on the deflection.  The problem 
would be whether pilots would want an extra device protruding into the laminar 
flow on the forward fuselage or not.

I may have mentioned the following previously:

As an aside, the static system on the P-3 Orion is excellent for detecting 
stall - just not in the expected way.  The original static system was on the 
forward fuselage.  However , it was found to have disturbed airflow when the 
bomb bay doors were open.  An alternate static location was found on the aft 
fuselage.  Arguably it was a better site as the error correction for the static 
system was significantly smaller and it was not affected by the bomb bay doors 
being open.  However, the new static ports were in the wake from the upper 
surface of the wing.  As soon as the wing root airflow on the wing upper 
surface starts to separate, the static system becomes subject to large pressure 
disturbances and the ASI and the altimeter become unresponsive and both of the 
needles start to bounce around.  So if you experience buffet in a P-3 and the 
ASI and altimeter needles are bouncing around, it is a stall. 

During discussions a few years ago about P-3 stall warning, I suggested that it 
may be feasible to directly tap into the static system and detect the pressure 
fluctuations from the flow separation and hence provide a stall warning.  The 
proposal was rejected as it needed a lot of R  D thrown at it to develop the 
idea.

Something like this may be the 'better mouse trap' for gliders.  A pressure 
transducer system connected to the upper surface trailing edge of the wing at a 
suitable point on each side  that trips a warning if separated flow is 
detected.  This would be a direct measurement of impending stall rather than 
implied through AoA or computing speed, g and wing loading etc.

Anthony

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Michael Derry
Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 10:29 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training

The report reminds us how useless the ASI is during spins. You are better off 
judging speed using the noise levels assessed by your ears.

Why hasn't some instrument maker built a better mousetrap than the one we have ?

On Sat, 27 Dec 2014 08:56:09 +1030
Ulrich Stauss usta...@internode.on.net wrote:

 This is a multipart message in MIME format.
 
 
 http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/research/Data_and_Progra
 ms/CFI/AFFTC-TR-89-27%20Spin%20Test.pdf
 
  
 
 Ulrich
 
  
 
 From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
 [mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron 
 Sanders
 Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 08:44
 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
 Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training
 
  
 
 Bernard,  good morning, i would lke o read that report too please?
 
  
 
 Ron
 
  
 
 On 27 December 2014 at 08:18, Bernhard ec...@internode.on.net wrote:
 
 Hello Paul, good morning all
 
  
 
 You might be interested to know that the US Air Force has already been 
 using the ASK21 for spin training over several
 
 decades.
 
  
 
 Therefore you might want to refer to a report by the US Air Force on 
 the spin characteristics of the ASK 21. It was done
 
by experts in the field and true professionals. When you read the 
 report you will find that it was perhaps the most
 
comprehensive study into the subject ever done. 
 
  
 
 To save you digging around I have attached a copy for you!
 
  
 
 Kind regards to all
 
  
 
 Bernard
 
  
 
 
 
 
 
 On 26 Dec 2014, at 10:05 pm, Paul Bart pb2...@gmail.com 
 mailto:pb2...@gmail.com  wrote:
 
  
 
  
 
 On 26 December 2014 at 19:33, Daryl Mackay darylmac

Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training

[Anthony Smith]

Actually, I was thinking a flush mounted static probe rather than a pitot.
It would be interesting to see if a transducer could pick up the pressure
fluctuations from separated flow and be able to see the difference from
attached flow.

After doing some work with the RAAF's P-3 wing tips, I am pretty sure it is
feasible.



-Original Message-

I saw a photo from 30 years ago of your upper wing surface near the trailing
edge pitot probe, Anthony. Pressure should be equal to pitot until the
thickening separated boundary layer encompasses the wing probe when the
pressure difference should increase rapidly. Might be useful on some gliders
which are very well behaved at low speeds and thermal nicely but don't climb
well unless flown a fair bit faster. 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] ASK21 spinning was Re: Spin training

[Anthony Smith]

Bergfalke IV decays into a spiral dive unless pro spin controls are held.  If 
you hold pro spin controls, it still decays into a spiral dive after three or 
so rotations.

 

Bocian used to stay in a spin until positive recovery controls were applied.  
Cath Conway told me way back when that anything Polish liked to spin.

 

Anyone tried letting go of the controls in a spin with a Puchaz?

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter (PCS3)
Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 7:57 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] ASK21 spinning was Re: Spin training

 

Page (v)
7. Some spins continued indefinitely if controls were released during the 
developed spin.
How many other gliders do this?  I am pretty sure the Blanik self recovers from 
a spin but have never tested it! :-) 
PeterS

On 27/12/2014 8:26 AM, Ulrich Stauss wrote:

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john.cochrane/research/Data_and_Programs/CFI/AFFTC-TR-89-27%20Spin%20Test.pdf

 

Ulrich

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net  
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ron Sanders
Sent: Saturday, 27 December 2014 08:44
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Spin training

 

Bernard,  good morning, i would lke o read that report too please?

 

Ron

 

On 27 December 2014 at 08:18, Bernhard ec...@internode.on.net 
mailto:ec...@internode.on.net  wrote:

Hello Paul, good morning all

 

You might be interested to know that the US Air Force has already been using 
the ASK21 for spin training over several 

decades.

 

Therefore you might want to refer to a report by the US Air Force on the spin 
characteristics of the ASK 21. It was done 

   by experts in the field and true professionals. When you read the report you 
will find that it was perhaps the most 

   comprehensive study into the subject ever done. 

 

To save you digging around I have attached a copy for you!

 

Kind regards to all

 

Bernard 

 






On 26 Dec 2014, at 10:05 pm, Paul Bart pb2...@gmail.com 
mailto:pb2...@gmail.com  wrote:

 

 

On 26 December 2014 at 19:33, Daryl Mackay darylmac...@gmail.com 
mailto:darylmac...@gmail.com  wrote:

 

 

Suffice to say no instructor willingly uses the ASK21 for spin awareness 
training at Beverley.

 

​ Hi Daryl

 

Would you mind explaining why? This is a genuine inquiry as my club is about to 
take a delivery of one.​

 

 

​ Cheers

 

Paul ​

 






Cheers

Paul

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Re: [Aus-soaring] two pawnees for sale

[Anthony Smith]

Being Pawnee's they both would be 'sweaters' on a hot day.

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of
opsw...@bigpond.net.au
Sent: Sunday, 14 December 2014 4:27 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Cc: Grietje Wansink
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] two pawnees for sale

-any two sweaters. 




--- Grietje Wansink grietje.wans...@gmail.com wrote: 

=
For sale:
two pawnees:
flown by mostly two pilots for the last 14 years.
Never a cracked cylinder.


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Would you fly on a pilotless plane?

[Anthony Smith]

It starts to sound like the old joke of the modern airliner only having a pilot 
and a dog in the cockpit.  The pilots job is to feed the dog.  The dog is there 
to bite the pilot if he tries to touch the controls.

 

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter Champness
Sent: Monday, 22 September 2014 5:50 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Would you fly on a pilotless plane?

 

The stats were interesting.  Pilot error is the leading cause of airliner 
accidents, greater than all other causes combined.

 

However maybe we still want a pilot there.  Sometimes they manage the right 
response when all else fails.

 

On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 1:28 PM, Nelson Handcock nelson.handc...@gmail.com 
mailto:nelson.handc...@gmail.com  wrote:

Somewhat offtopic perhaps, but would be interested in observations/reactions 
from the soaring community

http://www.brisbanetimes.com.au/technology/sci-tech/are-you-ready-to-fly-on-a-pilotless-plane-20140921-10j70w.html



 


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Discus - was 20M gliders

[Anthony Smith]

The Discus was the first to explore a new concept in glider design.

 

Previously designers had tried to provide a very wide laminar drag bucket from 
min sink through to VNE (or thereabouts).

 

The Discus designers decided to optimise the airfoil from around min sink speed 
to a reasonable inter thermal speed (ie 80 kts without ballast).  The idea was 
to have a great polar performance between climb and cruise speeds and then use 
water ballast to optimise the aircraft for a given day. The result was an 
exceptionally low drag airfoil within that CL range, that then got very draggy 
beyond the 80 kts (low CL end when empty) of the curve.  It shows up as quite a 
pronounced kink in the drag polar.

 

The result was impressive for its day with L/D for a std class ship jumping 
from 38 to 44:1  (claimed) with quite a gain in the cruise L/D too. The 
downside was that if you got the ballast too light for a day, you really 
couldn’t go faster than your inter thermal speed from the kink in the polar 
without a pretty big drag penalty.  To get the best out of the aircraft you had 
to get it correctly ballasted for the conditions .

 

It obviously worked as the majority - if not all - of the std class gliders 
today follow the same principal in the design of the airfoil.

 

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter Champness
Sent: Monday, 14 July 2014 6:37 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M gliders

 

That is quite interesting about the Discus suffering loss of performance above 
80 knots.  I thought the polar curves were more or less the same with 
progressive loss of L/D with speed.  Do any other gliders have the same 
problem?  Is the issue understood?

 

 

On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Harry hw.medlic...@optusnet.com.au 
mailto:hw.medlic...@optusnet.com.au  wrote:

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks for the erudite explanation of drag, Reynolds numbers etc.  I can only 
write as a pilot fairly ignorant of what factors influence a gliders 
performance but the following may be pertinent.

 

Glider manufacturers optimise design, particularly wing design, to be at 
greatest efficiency over a quite small speed range. Better to be highly 
efficient over a small speed range than less efficient over a large speed 
range. Manufacturers used to look at peak efficiency over 50 to 80 knots dry 
but I suspect modern aerofoils may compress this range even more and maybe look 
at optimisation towards the higher end of the speed range.

 

Manufacturers tend to be coy about actual polar curves but the original Discus 
published polar curve was more honest than most. It showed a distinct break and 
deterioration in performance at about 80 knots dry.. I assumed this was the 
point where the reduction in angle of attack reached a point where the airflow 
over the nearly flat lower side of the wing resulted in a break up of the 
laminar airflow. This reduction in performance was so severe that it was a 
waste of time climbing in a strong thermal once you could final glide at 80 
knots dry and proportionally more if ballasted. The gliders performance 
degraded so much that it was waste of time.climbing higher. even if a very 
strong thermal. once the correct  final glide speed could be flown.

 

Drag on the fuselage must be related to the angle of the fuselage to the 
airflow. It could well be that some fuselages are less affected than others. 
Schleicher fuselages tend to be quite slim past the cockpit. Perhaps drag 
varies not only with speed but also with fuselage design with some fuselages 
less affected by changes of angles of attack to the incoming airflow. 

 

Easy to see why glider designers have such a hard time designing the optimum 
performance glider. Get it wrong and couple of millions worth of Euros would be 
wasted and maybe the company goes broke.

 

Harry Medlicott

 

From: Mike Borgelt mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com  

Sent: Monday, July 14, 2014 12:00 PM

To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net  

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M gliders

 

Rob, 
I've done enough 2 seat cross country flying to realise the fun involved, I'm 
talking aerodynamics.

Harry,

There may be more wetted area and cross section on the 2 seat fuselage but 
comparing a Discus2 B to an Arcus  (this necessarily approximate) I get about 
32% more cross section on the Arcus fuselage and about 49% more wetted area. 
Shape is similar so I'd expect similar drag coefficients. The mass is 800 Kg vs 
525 at gross which is 52% greater so at any given sink rate the POWER is 52% 
greater. The wing area is 15.6 M^2 vs 10.16 M^2 so a ratio of 1.54 (rounded 
up). 
No large differences (slightly worse at 750Kg) and as the Arcus has flaps I'd 
expect it to perform the same at mid range speeds and better at high speeds 
where the Standard Class 

Re: [Aus-soaring] Discus - was 20M gliders

[Anthony Smith]

Typically an non-flapped airfoil will have curvature on the lower side of the 
airfoil to help keep the airflow accelerated on the lower surface as the angle 
of attack is reduced.  An airfoil with laminar flow on the lower surface all 
the way to near CL=0 will have a fair degree of curve to the lower surface.  
Look at many of the non-flapped Wortmann sections.

 

As you make the lower surface flatter, the laminar flow will drop out at 
increasing CL’s.

 

Martin Simons lists the airfoil as HX-83-Nase 80.  I suspect that it was part 
of the first generation inverse design using a computer.  It does not appear to 
have a lot of lower surface curvature.

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter Champness
Sent: Monday, 14 July 2014 7:27 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Discus - was 20M gliders

 

Very Interesting.

 

Do we know what characteristics of the airfoil lead the  narrow drag bucket?

 

On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 7:38 PM, Anthony Smith anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net 
mailto:anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net  wrote:

The Discus was the first to explore a new concept in glider design.

 

Previously designers had tried to provide a very wide laminar drag bucket from 
min sink through to VNE (or thereabouts).

 

The Discus designers decided to optimise the airfoil from around min sink speed 
to a reasonable inter thermal speed (ie 80 kts without ballast).  The idea was 
to have a great polar performance between climb and cruise speeds and then use 
water ballast to optimise the aircraft for a given day. The result was an 
exceptionally low drag airfoil within that CL range, that then got very draggy 
beyond the 80 kts (low CL end when empty) of the curve.  It shows up as quite a 
pronounced kink in the drag polar.

 

The result was impressive for its day with L/D for a std class ship jumping 
from 38 to 44:1  (claimed) with quite a gain in the cruise L/D too. The 
downside was that if you got the ballast too light for a day, you really 
couldn’t go faster than your inter thermal speed from the kink in the polar 
without a pretty big drag penalty.  To get the best out of the aircraft you had 
to get it correctly ballasted for the conditions .

 

It obviously worked as the majority - if not all - of the std class gliders 
today follow the same principal in the design of the airfoil.

 

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net  
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net ] On Behalf Of Peter 
Champness
Sent: Monday, 14 July 2014 6:37 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] 20M gliders

 

That is quite interesting about the Discus suffering loss of performance above 
80 knots.  I thought the polar curves were more or less the same with 
progressive loss of L/D with speed.  Do any other gliders have the same 
problem?  Is the issue understood?

 

 

On Mon, Jul 14, 2014 at 4:10 PM, Harry hw.medlic...@optusnet.com.au 
mailto:hw.medlic...@optusnet.com.au  wrote:

Hi Mike,

 

Thanks for the erudite explanation of drag, Reynolds numbers etc.  I can only 
write as a pilot fairly ignorant of what factors influence a gliders 
performance but the following may be pertinent.

 

Glider manufacturers optimise design, particularly wing design, to be at 
greatest efficiency over a quite small speed range. Better to be highly 
efficient over a small speed range than less efficient over a large speed 
range. Manufacturers used to look at peak efficiency over 50 to 80 knots dry 
but I suspect modern aerofoils may compress this range even more and maybe look 
at optimisation towards the higher end of the speed range.

 

Manufacturers tend to be coy about actual polar curves but the original Discus 
published polar curve was more honest than most. It showed a distinct break and 
deterioration in performance at about 80 knots dry.. I assumed this was the 
point where the reduction in angle of attack reached a point where the airflow 
over the nearly flat lower side of the wing resulted in a break up of the 
laminar airflow. This reduction in performance was so severe that it was a 
waste of time climbing in a strong thermal once you could final glide at 80 
knots dry and proportionally more if ballasted. The gliders performance 
degraded so much that it was waste of time.climbing higher. even if a very 
strong thermal. once the correct  final glide speed could be flown.

 

Drag on the fuselage must be related to the angle of the fuselage to the 
airflow. It could well be that some fuselages are less affected than others. 
Schleicher fuselages tend to be quite slim past the cockpit. Perhaps drag 
varies not only with speed but also with fuselage design with some fuselages 
less affected by changes of angles

Re: [Aus-soaring] Ventus 3.

[Anthony Smith]

A list of possible suspects

 

http://www.morewords.com/ends-with/us/ 

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Staniforth
Sent: Wednesday, 14 May 2014 12:40 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Ventus 3.

 

Still hoping it will be Lingus.
Pez D. Spencer Sailplane Racer cartoons at:
http://archive.soaravenal.com/Pez.htm
Jim

On 5/13/2014 7:07 AM, Redmond Quinn wrote:

et tu Brutus

 

Redmond

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Matthew
Scutter
Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014 10:29 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Ventus 3.

 

How about Senarus (latin..ish for sixth), which comes after Quintus (latin
for fifth).

 

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Mark Newton new...@atdot.dotat.org
mailto:new...@atdot.dotat.org  wrote:

Bolus.

 

  - mark

 

On May 13, 2014, at 9:11 PM, Adam I'Anson adam.ian...@gmail.com
mailto:adam.ian...@gmail.com  wrote:






The Dingus 

Regards,

 

Adam I'Anson


On 13 May 2014, at 6:59 pm, Matthew Scutter yellowplant...@gmail.com
mailto:yellowplant...@gmail.com  wrote:

I doubt die tritus would fly in german.

On 13 May 2014 17:25, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com  wrote:

At 07:32 AM 13/05/2014, you wrote:




Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary==_NextPart_000_0031_01CF6E7D.7732D0A0
Content-Language: en-au

The Bogus?
 



Love it!

However there seem to be multiple reports from different sources that the
new glider will happen sooner rather than later. I was told that one dealer
ordered 8 of them.

I wouldn't expect an 18/21/23 though as that might cut into the Quintus  and
would leave them without a new 15m glider.

BTW what exactly is the Ventus 2axS that Tilo is flying in the GP?

Anyway my bet on the new name is Tritus. Maybe Tertius is better Latin but
doesn't read or sound as well. Maybe an outside chance for Volus?

I guess we'll see.

Mike






Borgelt Instruments - design  manufacture of quality soaring
instrumentation since 1978
www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ 
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
tel:%2B61-42835%205784 
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Ventus 3.

[Anthony Smith]

Airbus?

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Jim
Staniforth
Sent: Wednesday, 14 May 2014 12:40 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Ventus 3.

 

Still hoping it will be Lingus.
Pez D. Spencer Sailplane Racer cartoons at:
http://archive.soaravenal.com/Pez.htm
Jim

On 5/13/2014 7:07 AM, Redmond Quinn wrote:

et tu Brutus

 

Redmond

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Matthew
Scutter
Sent: Tuesday, 13 May 2014 10:29 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Ventus 3.

 

How about Senarus (latin..ish for sixth), which comes after Quintus (latin
for fifth).

 

On Tue, May 13, 2014 at 9:28 PM, Mark Newton new...@atdot.dotat.org
mailto:new...@atdot.dotat.org  wrote:

Bolus.

 

  - mark

 

On May 13, 2014, at 9:11 PM, Adam I'Anson adam.ian...@gmail.com
mailto:adam.ian...@gmail.com  wrote:






The Dingus 

Regards,

 

Adam I'Anson


On 13 May 2014, at 6:59 pm, Matthew Scutter yellowplant...@gmail.com
mailto:yellowplant...@gmail.com  wrote:

I doubt die tritus would fly in german.

On 13 May 2014 17:25, Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
mailto:mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com  wrote:

At 07:32 AM 13/05/2014, you wrote:




Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary==_NextPart_000_0031_01CF6E7D.7732D0A0
Content-Language: en-au

The Bogus?
 



Love it!

However there seem to be multiple reports from different sources that the
new glider will happen sooner rather than later. I was told that one dealer
ordered 8 of them.

I wouldn't expect an 18/21/23 though as that might cut into the Quintus  and
would leave them without a new 15m glider.

BTW what exactly is the Ventus 2axS that Tilo is flying in the GP?

Anyway my bet on the new name is Tritus. Maybe Tertius is better Latin but
doesn't read or sound as well. Maybe an outside chance for Volus?

I guess we'll see.

Mike






Borgelt Instruments - design  manufacture of quality soaring
instrumentation since 1978
www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ 
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
tel:%2B61-42835%205784 
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 


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Re: [Aus-soaring] confor foam

[Anthony Smith]

Sounds like a business opportunity doesn't it?


These people get the foam in a large billet, and will cut you a piece to
the size and thickness required. From memory, their price was NOT
competitive, but that was years ago - maybe they now do a better deal?



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[Aus-soaring] Slingsby t.53

[Anthony Smith]

 

 

http://victoriancollections.net.au/items/5108825f2162ef0e303871d5

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Slingsby t.53

[Anthony Smith]

I believe that there was only ever one in Oz and it was never very popular.
The last I had heard of it was when it was offered on e-bay.  

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike
Borgelt
Sent: Sunday, 9 February 2014 4:55 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Slingsby t.53

 

I know Narrogin GC had one back in about 1968-69 for a while. 


They got rid of it. Maybe that is the same one.


Mike

At 04:00 PM 9/02/2014, you wrote:



and 
http://www.freewebs.com/vintageglidersqld/apps/photos/photo?photoid=45705473



On 09/02/2014, at 3:49 PM, Anthony Smith wrote: 



http://victoriancollections.net.au/items/5108825f2162ef0e303871d5 

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[Aus-soaring] Sextant: was bohli compass for sale

[Anthony Smith]

Believe it or not, in the late 90's I had a sextant in a case under my desk.
It was standard issue for a certain large maritime patrol aircraft.  We were
in the process of upgrading the aircraft to include GPS.  I needed the
sextant to as a reference to calculate the change in weight and balance.

Presumably the Navigators on board were still being trained to use it up to
that time.  There was a special mount in the roof of the fuselage to attach
it to for use.

True!


-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of DMcD
Sent: Thursday, 26 September 2013 3:35 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] bohli compass for sale

The compass rule reminds me of the offshore yacht racing rules which
required a sextant as an emergency backup for GPS or Satnav.

Apart from almost nobody being able to use a sextant or being able to use it
on the deck of a small boat in a sea or being able to do the calculations to
fix your position some half an hour earlier, the chances were that there was
complete overcast during the event, especially if it was anywhere near
Victoria or Tasmania.

Finally, they agreed that one could have a second (battery powered?) GPS as
backup for the main one. I can remember that my first Garmin would take so
long to get a fix when first switched on that the rechargeable batteries
would run out of electricity before you got a fix.

So there was no substitute for keeping a running fix on a chart. And you can
steer a yacht with a compass much better than a sailplane, especially at
night.

D
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[Aus-soaring] Laminated birch

[Anthony Smith]

Hi all

 

I need to purchase (or otherwise acquire) two relatively small pieces of 9mm
thick laminated birch (aircraft grade).  If you have some that you are
willing to sell or know of a supplier, please let me know off list.

 

Regards 

 

Anthony

 

P.S. I tried to send this message a day ago, but it hasn't appeared on the
list for some reason.  Sorry if you get two messages from me about this.

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Laminated birch

[Anthony Smith]

A point to note is that plywood has alternating layers where the grain is at
90 degrees (or some other angle layup as specified).  

 

The laminated birch timber that I am after has all the layers with the grain
in the same direction.

 

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Scott
Penrose
Sent: Tuesday, 16 July 2013 7:21 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Laminated birch

 


I need to purchase (or otherwise acquire) two relatively small pieces of 9mm
thick laminated birch (aircraft grade).  If you have some that you are
willing to sell or know of a supplier, please let me know off list.
 

 

Actually just noticed this page -
http://www.marinetimbers.com.au/sc/103/aircraft_and_models

 

But it only shows up to 6mm - maybe just ask them.

 

Scott

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Aerodynamics Query

[Anthony Smith]

Out of curiosity, did you try any performance measurement before and after 
adding the vent?

 

Anthony

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Adam Woolley
Sent: Monday, 15 April 2013 6:04 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Aerodynamics Query

 

Don't tease me James, you know I'd probably do it if pushed!

 

 


On 14/04/2013, at 20:24, james dutschke james.m.dutsc...@gmail.com wrote:

Add a porous skin and plumb it to the vent. Boundary layer suction complete

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Fwd: FW: Safety Cushions

[Anthony Smith]

Some other reading on the topic

 

http://www.streckenflug.at/shop/images/dynafoam_freeflight.pdf 

 

http://www.spina-bac.biz/yankeeromeo/DSI/foam_ostiv.pdf 

 

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Morgan
Sent: Thursday, 12 July 2012 12:10 AM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Fwd: FW: Safety Cushions

 

I read the document and it seems to have lots of good advice. I don't
understand how bouncing of the non-energy-absorbing foam causes injuries.
They say that bouncy foam is bad but then the discussion of why bouncing
might be bad says that the glider bounces off the ground and comes up and
hits the pilot who is still descending. 

 

The diagram titled BOUNCING shows the pilot falling towards the glider with
an air gap between him and the cushion. If the pilot has bounced off the
cushion, why is he descending? The text says that the pilot is in free-fall
at this point. Let's assume that the seatbelt is relatively loose and the
pilot is 5cm above the seat. How does a fall from 5cm make the injuries
significantly worse?

 

-  Morgan Sandercock 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Ian Mc Phee
Sent: Wednesday, 11 July 2012 4:13 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Fwd: FW: Safety Cushions

 

This article from BGA is very worth a read.  People who saw the crash may
remember after crash he just got out of glider and walked around and I love
his statement.

 

Kiwis must have confor in their gliders while the Poms highly recommend it
and most club gliders have it.

 

I personally believe it should be mandatory in Australian gliders and just
maybe one person who is now in a wheel chair and was sitting on crap makers
yellow foam cushions may be walking today.  For those that know confor foam
give the demo of slamming your fist into 3cm of confor on a brick wall to
your friends.  

 

As many who know me know I will never sign out a form 2 unless it has confor
foam cushion. (nor will I sign out a crap hard to read Altimeter or an
undercart without decent green -down and red -up) 

 

Lets hope there are a few more AUS gliders using confor cushions this season
ou from a wheelchair.

 

Treat cost of confor foam as a one off insurance policy which may save you
from a wheelchair for the rest of your life.

 

Ian McPhee

 

 

 

From: Terry, Ged (UK) 

Date: 11 July 2012 17:36
Subject: FW: Safety Cushions
To: Ruth Patching patch...@westnet.com.au, Robert Moore
robc...@adam.com.au, r.g.richter r.g.rich...@bigpond.com, JR
jma99...@bigpond.net.au, ga...@sharpbuilding.com.au
ga...@sharpbuilding.com.au, Dave and Jenne Goldsmith
daveandje...@gmail.com


-Original Message-
From: off...@gliding.co.uk [mailto:off...@gliding.co.uk]
Sent: 11 July 2012 08:25
Subject: Safety Cushions

--! WARNING ! -- This message
originates from outside our organisation, either from an external partner or
from the internet.
Keep this in mind if you answer this message.
Follow the 'Report Suspicious Emails' link on IT matters for instructions on
reporting suspicious email messages.


To: BGA Full and Assistant Instructors

You will be aware that BGA RP 38 recommends that all glider cockpits should
be equipped with cushions containing energy absorbing materials.

These cushions are widely used in club gliders but less so in privately
owned gliders.

The BGA has produced a booklet explaining how safety cushions work and how
they can reduce injury not just in a crash but in the heavy landings that
occur from time to time on instructing flights. We are hoping the booklet
will encourage all non-users to install energy absorbent cushions.

You can download a copy of the booklet from
http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/documents/safetyfoam.pdf and your
CFI has hard copy versions of the booklet for distribution.

An EMail highlighting the issue and providing a link to the booklet will be
sent to all private owners in the next few days.  Please help us by
encouraging all pilots to fly with a safety cushion.

Best regards

Peter Claiden
Chairman, BGA Safety Committee






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recipient and may also be privileged. If you are not the intended
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You should not copy it or use it for any purpose nor disclose or
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-- 
Dave and Jenne Goldsmith
daveandje...@gmail.com
61 (0)3 54 28 3358 tel:61%20%280%293%2054%2028%203358 
PO Box 577, Gisborne, Vic, 3437 Australia

Re: [Aus-soaring] Shelf life etc of Jet A1

[Anthony Smith]

Robert

 

I can make some enquiries for you. Some very rough answers:

 

1.Defence stores Jet A-1 (that is A one) for years in bulk supply
tanks.  It is a heavier fuel and takes an awful long time for the lighter
constituents to evaporate away (flash point increases as a result).  They do
a flash point test to verify that it is still OK to use.

2.   The quality of the storage container will determine rates of
ingress for particle contaminants and water.  

3.   Anecdotal evidence says yes.  Jet fuel is typically a 'finer cut'
than ordinary diesel (which has a broader temperature range of
constituents).  If anything your car will run far cleaner than diesel with
less deposits.  Most military aviation organizations are using jet fuel for
the diesel vehicles and generator sets now.  Saves them carting two kinds of
fuel around. I am not aware of specific alterations to the vehicles to
enable jet fuel use.  Some manufacturers of cars do not recommend the
ethanol -diesel due to the lower flash point (ignition temperature).

4.   Sulfur content is really based on source of the crude and is highly
variable.  There is technology creeping into the refineries to remove some
to most of the sulfur.  Look at mercaptan content if you can get the data -
can be broadly classed as Thiols.

5.   Given that you are likely to buy a reasonable quantity and use it
sparingly over the course of 12 months:  All the usual issues with long term
fuel storage.

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Robert Hart
Sent: Tuesday, 10 July 2012 5:45 PM
To: Soaring in Australia
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Shelf life etc of Jet A1

 

Hi folks

In the 12 months it's going to take my JS1 turbo to arrive, I am
endeavouring to work out how best to manage the fuel. The advice is that I
should use Jet A1 rather than diesel as it must be low sulphur diesel and
that is hard (apparently) to guarantee here.

So I beg your indulgence about a few issues

1.  What is the shelf (or tank) life of Jet AI?
2.  Will that shelf life depend on the sort of tank it's in (aircraft,
jerry can, 44 gallon drum etc)?
3.  Once Jet A1 has passed its (aviation) use by date, can I use it
safely in my diesel car (as that would be a way to avoid throwing it away
somewhere).
4.  Is low sulphur diesel really that hard to find (guaranteed) here in
Australia?
5.  What other things should I be thinking about in terms of fuel?

 

-- 



Robert Hart  ha...@interweft.com.au
Darling Downs gliding weather information
http://the-white-knight-speaks.blogspot.com.au/ 
+61 438 385 533 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Shelf life etc of Jet A1

[Anthony Smith]

-
Fuel fungus is an issue if any moisture gets into the storage drum and grows on 
the fuel water interface. Will block fuel filters very quickly and resembles a 
fine filament.   
-

Research 'Cladosporium Resinae' and 'Pseudomonas Aeruginosa'.  Defence uses an 
additive called FSII (fuel system icing inhibitor) to help dissolve traces of 
water into the fuel.  FSII is also rather toxic and knocks off the fuel bugs.

The fuel bugs can be serious because they can also eat plastics and rubbers.  
They excrete an acid byproduct which is pretty bad for metals too.


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Re: [Aus-soaring] MORE: Hypoxia / chamber run video

[Anthony Smith]

 WILL LOOSE.

 

Geoff Vincent (who is a member of this forum), and an experienced wave flyer
has devoted considerable time to documenting what is required to be totally
prepared, If you want to go wave flying, and are new to the game,  I
suggest that you get in contact with Geoff - geoff.vinc...@optusnet.com.au

 

Regarding glider pilots using the RAAF hypobaric chamber I offer the
following comment. The head of the AAF is a very experienced glider pilot,
and I suggest that our new president (Anita), gets in contact with him (Air
Marshall Geoff Brown), on this topic.However, I further suggest that you do
not hold your breath if you expect a positive outcome. 

 

Cheers, 

 

Gary

- Original Message - 

From: Ian Mc Phee mailto:mrsoar...@gmail.com  

To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net  

Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2012 6:40 PM

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] MORE: Hypoxia / chamber run video

 

In the good old days Brad Edwards took a bus load group of us down to RAAF
Richmond for an aviation Medicine day and afternoon was a run in
decompression chamber and from memory we were taken to 23000ft and no way
could any of us complete the counting back by three ie given 100, 97, 94,
__,__  There is a well know audio of think F5 pilot having trouble closing
his canopy then finally takes off and no mater how hard controllers tried
they could not get him to move the Oxy regulators levers forward (giving him
100% oxy) and he just went into subconsciousness to eventually crash. 

 

Gather the only serviceable decompression chambers are in NZ now.  DAMEs in
AUS just experience mixed gasses these days. I think it is a shame at least
commercial pilots are not required to do a mixed gas run and that would be
more useful than the english test all new pilots must now do to get a PPL
and pay a contractor $100 for the 10min test.

 

Ian M  

On 8 July 2012 09:35, Anthony Smith anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net wrote:



Towards the end, the 'pilot' is unable to put his mask back on, not from
lack of motor control or lack of conciousness, but just from not caring.


No from not caring.  I still cared and wanted to put the mask back on.  My
experience was the complete inability to get my brain from A to B.

I heard the voice say Number 3, put your mask back on.

It took some time to remember that I was 'Number 3' - even though I thought
I was fine and was reacting OK.

Then there was the fumbling with the mask and the few moments (actually
quite a few moments) staring at it whilst I tried to work out which way was
up on the mask and how to get it onto my face - even though I thought I was
fine and was reacting OK.

Once the mask was on, the tunnel vision disappeared (hadn't realized that I
had tunnel vision) and all the colours came flooding back (hadn't realized
that the world had gone black and white either).

I would not have believed anyone afterwards when they told that it took so
long for me to think and react, except I saw the second group in the chamber
behave in exactly the same way.

A remarkable experience and the results are somewhat similar to a long
drinking session.




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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Hypoxia / chamber run video

[Anthony Smith]

It is unlikely that the RAAF will do a run for the general public (due to
liability issues).

Last time I enquired at Edinburgh, the answer was no.

You can try asking then again though.



-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Matthew
Scutter
Sent: Saturday, 7 July 2012 9:14 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Hypoxia / chamber run video

Here's a fascinating video demonstrating the effects of oxygen deprivation:
http://www.wimp.com/hypoxiabrain/

Towards the end, the 'pilot' is unable to put his mask back on, not from
lack of motor control or lack of conciousness, but just from not caring.
Food for thought for those engaging in high altitude soaring.

I understand you used to be able to arrange chamber runs with the RAAF, does
anyone know if this is still possible?

-Matthew
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[Aus-soaring] MORE: Hypoxia / chamber run video

[Anthony Smith]

Towards the end, the 'pilot' is unable to put his mask back on, not from
lack of motor control or lack of conciousness, but just from not caring.


No from not caring.  I still cared and wanted to put the mask back on.  My
experience was the complete inability to get my brain from A to B.  

I heard the voice say Number 3, put your mask back on.

It took some time to remember that I was 'Number 3' - even though I thought
I was fine and was reacting OK.

Then there was the fumbling with the mask and the few moments (actually
quite a few moments) staring at it whilst I tried to work out which way was
up on the mask and how to get it onto my face - even though I thought I was
fine and was reacting OK.

Once the mask was on, the tunnel vision disappeared (hadn't realized that I
had tunnel vision) and all the colours came flooding back (hadn't realized
that the world had gone black and white either).

I would not have believed anyone afterwards when they told that it took so
long for me to think and react, except I saw the second group in the chamber
behave in exactly the same way.

A remarkable experience and the results are somewhat similar to a long
drinking session.




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Re: [Aus-soaring] ABC radio transponder story

[Anthony Smith]

Personally, I foresee a future where we will all have some form of compulsory 
collision avoidance system.  I think that it is unavoidable (pardon the joke).

 

I subscribe to the view that we would be much better off to get ourselves 
(gliders) sorted out now.  That way we have some “hope” of collectively 
negotiating the future with the authorities rather than having the authorities 
dictate to us a potentially less desirable the solution.

 

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Stuart  Kerri 
FERGUSON
Sent: Wednesday, 4 July 2012 12:55 PM
To: tom claffey; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ABC radio transponder story

 

BUT not all gliders are fitted with FLARM !

 

We would have to make them compulsory too.

Stuart FERGUSON 

Phone - 0419 797508

 


On 04/07/2012, at 13:03, tom claffey to...@yahoo.com wrote:

REX could buy Flarms of course! ;] I would be happy if they made them mandatory.

After all, it is them wanting us to change, we outnumber them as well.

Tom


  _  


From: Mike Borgelt mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net 
Sent: Wednesday, 4 July 2012 12:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] ABC radio transponder story

 

At 11:21 AM 4/07/2012, you wrote:



Forwarded from Kim Taylor:

Hi All,

 
This morning on ABC radio AM programme a story regarding the regional
airline Rex pushing for gliders to carry transponders. 

Rex had a near miss  involving a glider and one of their air ambulances.

 

Link to story : http://www.abc.net.au/am/content/2012/s3538383.htm

 

 

Regards,

 

Kim T

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It would be nice if the GFA spokesperson got his facts straight.

A transponder like a Trig TT21 or 22 draws only 300mA or so and that includes 
the altitude encoder. It fits a sub 57mm hole and is in two parts so the bit in 
the panel is very short.

Not only that it is ADSB ready so it only needs a suitable approved GPS unit 
and it is an ADSB OUT solution. Can be had for $2500 currently, maybe a bit 
less. The only issue with ADSB OUT is the approvedGPS source and this is an 
area where some intelligent lobbying will pay. (God help us if the GFA does 
this)

Claiming size/weight/power problems is a joke when power hungry colour moving 
map displays draw around 500mA and new battery technology allows over 2.5 times 
the energy storage for less weight than the old sealed lead acid tech.

I find a fair number of RAAus aircraft don't have transponders either and these 
will be as much of a hazard as gliders to Air Ambulance and Regional airline 
ops although the RAAus guys seem to be better at radio use. I guess Rex have 
TCAS in their Air Ambulances as otherwise you need to be in radar coverage at 
least with Mode C. The Trig is a Mode S transponder BTW(includes Mode C).

Imagine if the ABC found out that glider pilots are unlicensed.

Mike


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Re: [Aus-soaring] Mandl extractor - Is it snake oil or is there something to it?

[Anthony Smith]

Air into the cockpit must equal air out.

 

If you are ramming air into the cockpit and do not have a suitable exit,
where does it go?  Predominantly out around the edges of the canopy and
worse still along through the wing roots and out the air brake box.  In
'very bad' examples it is the equivalent of having the airbrakes unlocked
(but not open) which is enough of a performance drop to be noticeable to the
pilot.

 

The solution is to provide a 'nice' way of exiting the air without
disturbing the surface flow too much.  The JS1 idea is very neat, but
complex.  The DG way is relatively crude.  

 

In older types , an air extractor is a way of getting your 34:1 Std Libelle
(or similar) a bit back towards the quoted 38:1.

 

Personally, I plan to have an extractor on the Bergfalke behind the (fixed)
main wheel.  I can't make the louvers like Jonkers, and detest the crudity
of the DG design, so I am playing with the concept of making a true reverse
NACA duct (which is NOT the same as having a NACA scoop facing backwards)
behind the fixed main wheel.  The reason why? It is impossible to completely
seal the nose release in the Bergfalke.  As I have air coming in
continuously, I might as well have somewhere to dump it and the air behind
the main wheel is already pretty disturbed (which may actually defeat the
reverse NACA concept - the original NACA inlet duct design was for laminar
flow).

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Mike
Borgelt
Sent: Tuesday, 5 June 2012 5:44 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Mandl extractor - Is it snake oil or is there
something to it?

 

At 04:40 PM 5/06/2012, you wrote:



Not sure about independent, but Jonker does the same thing for their
JS1's, and I've heard of experimental ASW20 mods to add one.
http://www.jonkersailplanes.co.za/index.php?pageid=36

-Matthew


No the JS-1 vent is not the same as the Mandl extractor although both aim to
suck exit air out through a low pressure point. The Mandl device is on the
bottom of the fuselage and looks to be in around the trailing edge of the
wing location in the fore and aft sense. The JS-1 vent is on top of the
fuselage not far aft of the canopy and it has a little wing in it to get the
air to flow along the surface better. The JS-1 location is likely a lower
pressure area (top of wing and fat part of fuselage) than the lower fuselage
lined up with the wing TE where the pressure is about back to static
pressure. Also the Mandl extractor doesn't seem to try to flow the exit air
parallel to the airstream. Some tests with dye or tufts would be interesting
as well as static pressure measurements. Don't forget also if you manage to
put the vent in a low pressure area and close the inlet, cockpit pressure
will be a fair bit lower than outside - maybe up to 100 feet or so altitude
equivalent with consequent effects on the pressure altitude measured by your
logger.

This is by no means a new idea to have an exit vent. Wil Schumann used the
back of the gear doors as an extractor on his H301b Libelle. I had an exit
vent on my Mini Nimbus in 1978. Gliders are coming out with better cockpit
ventilation nowadays. It took long enpough. failure to provide adequate
ventilation in the cockpit is like failing to provide proper cooling for the
engine in a powered aircraft.

Mike




Borgelt Instruments - design  manufacture of quality soaring
instrumentation since 1978
www.borgeltinstruments.com http://www.borgeltinstruments.com/ 
tel:   07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784
mob: 042835 5784 :  int+61-42835 5784
P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Mandl extractor - Is it snake oil or isthere something to it?

[anthony . smith]

 More like: a robust platform that allows easy minor alterations for 
those inlcined to have a go. 
 
 On Wed 06/06/12 9:32 AM , Derek drudd...@iinet.net.au sent: 
 
Did someone mention silk purses?  
 
FROM: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] ON BEHALF OF 
Anthony Smith 
 SENT: Tuesday, 5 June 2012 7:43 PM 
 TO: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.' 
 SUBJECT: Re: [Aus-soaring] Mandl extractor - Is it snake oil or is 
there something to it?   
 
Air into the cockpit must equal air out.  
 
If you are ramming air into the cockpit and do not have a suitable 
exit, where does it go? Predominantly out around the edges of the 
canopy and worse still along through the wing roots and out the air 
brake box. In ‘very bad’ examples it is the equivalent of having 
the airbrakes unlocked (but not open) which is enough of a performance 
drop to be noticeable to the pilot.   
 
The solution is to provide a ‘nice’ way of exiting the air 
without disturbing the surface flow too much. The JS1 idea is very 
neat, but complex. The DG way is relatively crude.   
 
In older types , an air extractor is a way of getting your 34:1 Std 
Libelle (or similar) a bit back towards the quoted 38:1.  
 
Personally, I plan to have an extractor on the Bergfalke behind the 
(fixed) main wheel. I can’t make the louvers like Jonkers, and 
detest the crudity of the DG design, so I am playing with the concept 
of making a true reverse NACA duct (which is NOT the same as having a 
NACA scoop facing backwards) behind the fixed main wheel. The reason 
why? It is impossible to completely seal the nose release in the 
Bergfalke. As I have air coming in continuously, I might as well have 
somewhere to dump it and the air behind the main wheel is already 
pretty disturbed (which may actually defeat the reverse NACA concept 
– the original NACA inlet duct design was for laminar flow).   
 
FROM: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net [1] 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] [2] ON BEHALF OF 
Mike Borgelt 
 SENT: Tuesday, 5 June 2012 5:44 PM 
 TO: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
 SUBJECT: Re: [Aus-soaring] Mandl extractor - Is it snake oil or is 
there something to it?  
 
At 04:40 PM 5/06/2012, you wrote:  
 
Not sure about independent, but Jonker does the same thing for their 
 JS1's, and I've heard of experimental ASW20 mods to add one. 
 http://www.jonkersailplanes.co.za/index.php?pageid=36 [3] 
 
 -Matthew  
 
 No the JS-1 vent is not the same as the Mandl extractor although both 
aim to suck exit air out through a low pressure point. The Mandl 
device is on the bottom of the fuselage and looks to be in around the 
trailing edge of the wing location in the fore and aft sense. The JS-1 
vent is on top of the fuselage not far aft of the canopy and it has a 
little wing in it to get the air to flow along the surface better. The 
JS-1 location is likely a lower pressure area (top of wing and fat 
part of fuselage) than the lower fuselage lined up with the wing TE 
where the pressure is about back to static pressure. Also the Mandl 
extractor doesn't seem to try to flow the exit air parallel to the 
airstream. Some tests with dye or tufts would be interesting as well 
as static pressure measurements. Don't forget also if you manage to 
put the vent in a low pressure area and close the inlet, cockpit 
pressure will be a fair bit lower than outside - maybe up to 100 feet 
or so altitude equivalent with consequent effects on the pressure 
altitude measured by your logger. 
 
 This is by no means a new idea to have an exit vent. Wil Schumann 
used the back of the gear doors as an extractor on his H301b Libelle. 
I had an exit vent on my Mini Nimbus in 1978. Gliders are coming out 
with better cockpit ventilation nowadays. It took long enpough. 
failure to provide adequate ventilation in the cockpit is like failing 
to provide proper cooling for the engine in a powered aircraft. 
 
 Mike 
 
BORGELT INSTRUMENTS - design COLOR: bluewww.borgeltinstruments.com 
 tel: 07 4635 5784 overseas: int+61-7-4635 5784 
 mob: 042835 5784 : int+61-42835 5784 
 P O Box 4607, Toowoomba East, QLD 4350, Australia  
 
Links: 
-- 
[1] mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[2] mailto:[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] 
[3] http://www.jonkersailplanes.co.za/index.php?pageid=36 
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[Aus-soaring] CAR 35 engineer

[Anthony Smith]

Hi all

 

Does anyone have the contact details for Mike Burns?

 

Alternatively, contact details for another glider friendly approved CAR 35
engineer?

 

Regards

 

Anthony 

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[Aus-soaring] Welded Steel Tube Repairs

[Anthony Smith]

A quick question for those involved with welded steel tube fuselages:

 

When designing / fabricating repairs, what reference / repair design
document do you refer to?  As an example repairs carried out in accordance
with X?

 

Private replies are welcome.  Particularly interested in anything other than
the US FAA publication 'AC 43.12-1B Chg 1'.

 

Anthony

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider Insurance

[Anthony Smith]

For what it is worth, I received correspondence from 'Marsh' suggesting I
consider them for a quote for aviation insurance.  This arrived at the same
time as the OAMPS renewal.   I had already completed the renewal for OAMPS
and have not investigated further.

 

I have the contact details for 'Marsh' if anyone is interested.

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Re: [Aus-soaring] UK glider pilot parachutes

[Anthony Smith]

Presumably he was over unlandable terrain and out of options.  With a real
risk of injury if he stayed in the cockpit, it was probably best to bail
out.

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of MIKE
BORGELT
Sent: Monday, 20 February 2012 8:21 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] UK glider pilot parachutes

 

Makes you wonder why he bailed out.
Control system problem?
Spin recovery?

Mike

At 09:46 PM 19/02/2012, you wrote:



Airframe looks almost undamaged and intact.
 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-kent-17088948
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Re: [Aus-soaring] UK glider pilot parachutes

[Anthony Smith]

The article quotes the road that the gliding club is on (as shown on google
earth).  It appears the glider may have come down in the only significant
patch of trees for some distance..

 

Having successfully put foot in mouth, I should check google earth more
often.

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Robert Hart
Sent: Monday, 20 February 2012 8:31 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] UK glider pilot parachutes

 

On 20/02/12 19:30, MIKE BORGELT wrote: 

At 06:37 PM 20/02/2012, you wrote:



Content-Type: multipart/alternative;
 boundary==_NextPart_000_0036_01CCF002.DF6EE790
Content-Language: en-au

Presumably he was over unlandable terrain and out of options.  With a real
risk of injury if he stayed in the cockpit, it was probably best to bail
out.
 


In Kent???

Quite (Kent's the county I spent my childhood in - and learned to fly
gliders in), If someone was high enough to bail out successfully (at least
3,000ft) I find it hard to believe that there was no landable terrain in
glide range.



-- 
Robert Hart  ha...@interweft.com.au
+61 (0)438 385 533   http://www.hart.wattle.id.au
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Colditz Cock

[Anthony Smith]

I saw the original replica at Duxford - unfortunately in a de-rigged state.


 

However I was always under the impression from Paul Reid's book that the
aircraft was intended as a two seater.  The original pilot was to be Douglas
Bader and his pax was to be Winston Churchill's nephew (it was feared that
he would be held to ransom at the end of the war).

 

The launch (in the middle of the night with a full moon) would have been
interesting.  Supposedly a set of rails was to be laid on the prison chapel
roof and a bathtub full of concrete was going to be dropped down the
medieval sized chimney to drag the launch dolly down the rails.  Apparently
part of the guard's barracks was on the ground floor of said chimney.  I
reckon the guards may have worked out that something was up when the bathtub
arrived..

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Christopher
Mc Donnell
Sent: Thursday, 9 February 2012 3:06 PM
To: Gliding mail list
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Colditz Cock

 

It seems a second replica is being built.

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2098594/Great-escape-plot-Colditz-Po
Ws-finally-realised-glider-gramophone-springs-takes-sky.html?ito=feeds-newsx
ml

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[Aus-soaring] A road less travelled to the back of Bourke

[Anthony Smith]

A random question for a wet evening in Adelaide.

 

Does anyone have experience of the condition of the Wilcannia to Bourke Rd
(via Tilpa and Louth) in NSW? Particularly interested if it is simply
quicker and easier to go via Cobar (yes, glider trailer will be attached to
car).

 

Please reply direct to myself.

 

Regards

 

Anthony

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider visibility-UK-BGA

[Anthony Smith]

Not necessarily.  A range of high intensity LED strobes are coming into the
market.  An example is:

 

http://www.aeroleds.com/  

 

It may soon be feasible to run a pair of wing tip strobes off a second
battery for aircraft operating in high traffic areas. 

 

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of John
McFarlane
Sent: Tuesday, 20 September 2011 8:07 AM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider visibility-UK-BGA

 

Back to Day-Glo wing tips and noses again - small wheel

 

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Christopher
Mc Donnell
Sent: Tuesday, 20 September 2011 7:24 AM
To: Gliding mail list
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Glider visibility-UK-BGA

 

http://www.atc-network.com/News/39650/CAA-funds-visibility-trial

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[Aus-soaring] Something for the vintage types

[Anthony Smith]

Hi all

 

I am in the middle of a 40 yearly for GZQ.  I am looking at purchasing some
lengths steel tube from Germany: in particular metric sizes of 1.0308 (ST
35) and 1.7214 (4130 Chrome Moly) which are more difficult to source here in
Oz.  This will be particularly suited to Motorfalkes, Bergfalkes , SF 27 and
possibly ASK-13 and other steel tube Schleicher (may need to be corrected
here because I am more intimate with Scheibe types). 

 

Are there any other vintage aficionados out there who particularly desire
precision cold drawn seamless tubing interested in sharing some of the
shipping costs?  Or is everyone happy with imperial sized 4130 tube (Airport
Metals and similar suppliers)?

 

Regards

 

Anthony 

 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Stalls

[anthony . smith]

  
 
The artificial horizon (AH) will only tell you if you are climbing or 
descending. It works on the direction you are travelling in.  
 
Most larger aircraft will have an angle of attack device, either a 
vane or probe, mounted on either side of the nose. This can be used in 
a stall warning system.  
 
Stall angle is not as simple on high speed / high altitude aircraft 
as it is to low speed / low altitude aircraft like gliders. Unlike 
gliders where the stall angle is a constant, an airliner cruising at 
~Mach 0.8 (give or take a bit) stall angle is a complex variable. At 
those mach numbers it doesn't take too much accelleration of the air 
flow over (and under) the wing to exceed Mach 1. The presence of 
strong shock waves on the surface of the wing can greatly alter the 
lift. The typical affect is that the stall angle is greatly reduced. 
(Note that the lift that the wing produces per degree of angle of 
attack increases with Mach number up to a certain point which can 
compensate a bit.) Note also that when the airliner is low and slow, 
the stall angle returns to a relative constant as per what we are used 
to as glider pilots.  
 
Stall angle gets really complicated and modern airliners will have a 
computer to work it all out and provide warning to the crew. Most of 
the time this takes the form of a 'stick shaker' - a system which 
mechanically shakes the control column to alert the crew.  
 
it is not the first time that this has happened in recent history. I 
read in an Air Safety magazine relatively recently that an airliner 
pilot on approach into Alice Springs encountered stall warning twice. 
The first time he tried to power out of it as allegded with the Air 
France crew. the second time he remembered to lower the nose as well. 
 
 On Mon 30/05/11 12:26 PM , DMcD slutsw...@gmail.com sent: 
  I know nothing about nothing which is probably apparent from my 
 postings, but can someone tell me, do instruments like an artificial 
 horizon give these pilots any indication of nose angle or angle of 
 incidence? 
 
 I was attempting to explain a stall like this to #2 wife and had 
 difficulty understanding why they did not put the nose down or look 
at 
 an instrument to tell them their AOA since they would have had some 
 minutes to think about this during what appears to have been a tail 
 down plunge. 
 
 At least if the SOPs have changed, I can persuade her to get on 
another plane. 
 
 D 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Small creatures ...

[Anthony Smith]

I do recall the big mouse plague at Lochiel some time ago.  GZM took off and
as it rotated into full climb on the first launch, mice were bailing out
from the main and tail wheels.

I am generally against widespread use of poison for two reasons:

1.  Once it is out of the packet you cannot control where it eventually ends
up: native wild life, pets, kids etc

2.  The mice eat the poison and then crawl off into a cosy corner to die.
After a couple of days they stink!  Wing roots, cockpits, tail planes, bunk
rooms, kitchens, you name it. You pull everything apart to track down where
the stench is coming from.

I generally use traps of one sort or another and regularly clean them out
and reset them.  We regularly set up a rubbish bin with a several inches of
water in the bottom and them projected a 'plank' out over the bin. The end
of the plank had the smelly food attached to a long wine bottle neck or
similar slippery surface.  The mice would walk the plank and slip off the
glass into the bin of water where they would drown.  It wasn't unusually to
have quite a tally in the bin and it controlled the smell too.


-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of
opsw...@bigpond.net.au
Sent: Tuesday, 17 May 2011 5:09 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Cc: Terry Neumann
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Small creatures ...

Bromakill and mouseoff in suitable locations around the hangar. keep topping
it up.



 Terry Neumann tfneum...@internode.on.net wrote: 

=

Rigging is off the agenda.OK - here's something different then.   
How about /mus musculus/ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/House_mouse  and 
their close relatives.

Central SA is having something of a mouse plague at present.  From what 
I heard on the amateur radio a few nights back, the problem extends well 
into the eastern states also.

They really make themselves at home in an environment where they are not 
disturbed all that often.  That means most gliding establishments - 
including the aircraft =-O .

How to best manage all aspects of this little challenge must be 
exercising a few people's thoughts right now.

Discuss ??

Terry


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Re: [Aus-soaring] rigging controls checks (Foka etc)

[anthony . smith]

 Must be time for some Blanik bashing surely? 
 
 On Tue 17/05/11 3:07 PM , tom.wilk...@internode.on.net sent: 
 
   We are unlikely to change this by talking about  
  it - so can we please talk about something else now? 
   
  Wombat 
 
 Hey Wombat, just because you write a reasoned post doesn't mean that 
the rest of us can't continue to spout more nonsense. 
 
 Now, what else can I start here - we had jets, electric drives, 
rigging checks. Haven't bashed instructors for a while, they sign for 
all sorts of things and even let beginners go it alone, Surely can't 
be qualified for that! I know, I've experienced one make a mistake! 
 
 Rgds - Rolf 
 
  What about climate change? Haven't had a long drawn out and 
unnecessary debate on that for at least 10 minutes . . . Tom  
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Music while flying?

[anthony . smith]

  
 
If I had music playing I would lose the functionality of my audio 
altimeter.  
 
(Justine is quite talkative at altitude - particularly at 10,000 ft. 
The conversation diminishes with decreasing altitude till she is 
absolutely silent whislt I grovel away looking for a save. I don't 
need to look at the altimeter anymore.)  
 
 On Thu 14/04/11 3:56 PM , John Parncutt jparn...@bigpond.net.au sent: 
   For those thinking of hooking up their ipods etc to the cd input on 
the radio bear in mind that will increase the current drawn by the 
radio and reduce the charge available from the battery. Whenever i 
have used music on a long flight i prefer to use an ipod with the 
rarbuds at low level so i can still hear whats going on around me.  
  Cheers   
 
  John  
 Sent from my iPad  
 On 14/04/2011, at 3:37 PM, Raj  rbhola...@adelaide.on.net [1] 
wrote: 
 
“What's your aircraft Rego?? I'll keep an eye out for it.”  
 
Should you be keeping an eye out for ALL aircrafts regardless of 
rego?  
 
:-P  
 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Music while flying?

[anthony . smith]

 Windmills of your mind was featured in the re-make as well 
 
 On Fri 15/04/11 12:19 PM , Terry tfneum...@internode.on.net sent: 
 
 Windmills of your mind is an obvious. If you are  
 over 40, you will probably know why (hint - think Steve McQueen). 
 
 Terry 
 (Presently in Canberra - gee the Cu's are nice over here) 
 
 (Sigh.) 
 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Rope break

[Anthony Smith]

J did have a camera, but she was so entranced by the rope she forgot to take
the pic!

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Christopher
Mc Donnell
Sent: Tuesday, 12 April 2011 6:23 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Rope break

 

Having started this thread I award the prize for the best yarn to Anthony
for his unravelling rope scenario.

It was like something out of Sat'dy arvo matinee movie plot.

Pity they did not have their usual cameras with them.

 

As a wincher it feels *wrong* passing through the non manoeuvring area on
tow, trusting in the rope.

But then, it is what you are used to.

I remember EP taking a power aerobatic pilot on a first winch launch. You
could hear her squealing up the launch from the ground.

Felt *wrong*. No speed, no engine, steep angle.

 

Chris

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider airspace incursion

[Anthony Smith]

If it was 8k and above the airfield and they were observing it on radar, 
why could they not bring a/c under it?

- Have to allow for the tow ropes for the horses to drag the zeppelin
along..


-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter
Stephenson
Sent: Friday, 25 March 2011 9:54 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider airspace incursion

If it was 8k and above the airfield and they were observing it on radar, 
why could they not bring a/c under it? I have flown over Brisbane 
International from SE to NW at right angles to the 01/19 RWY at 1500' 
with clearance of course.
PeterS

On 25/03/2011 7:26 PM, Mats Henrikson wrote:
 All incoming and outgoing traffic at Oslo Airport Gardermoen was halted
for
 more than an hour on Thursday afternoon, after an unidentified hang
glider
 or sail plane was observed circling over the airport at 8000 ft.
 I read Norwegian and have been checking the articles I can find
 online. There isn't really much more info than what you've got above -
 some UFO (in the true meaning of the abbreviation) was spotted at 8k
 feet, but they were unable to identify exactly what it was. It appears
 they are have drawn the conclusion it must be a soaring craft of some
 sort since it stayed up there longer than a small aircraft should
 have enough fuel for. There doesn't appear to be any photos of it. I
 saw no reports of anybody spotting it from the ground, nor is there
 anything mentioning how many times it was sighted and at what
 intervals.

 To me it reads like an airline crew spotted something they could not
 identify, reported it to air traffic control who took suitable
 precautions, and the media filled in the rest.

 Mats
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[Aus-soaring] Fin mount for a TE probe

[Anthony Smith]

Hi  all

The Bergfalke is having a major refurbishment at the moment and I need to
find a fin mount for a TE tube.  

The existing one is fitted at the wrong angle and it looks like I need to
destroy it in order to remove it.

regards

Anthony

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Blurring the lines

[anthony . smith]

  
 
Buy an ES-59 Arrow! 
 
 ON MON 24/01/11 9:50 AM , DMCD slutsw...@gmail.com SENT:  
 
 It's a shame because the idea of flying in a modern primary and 
 thermalling on a puff has a lot of attractions. 
 
 D 
 
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[Aus-soaring] Kinky gulls

[Anthony Smith]

There's a challenge!

 

Gull wings do have a slight aerodynamic advantage - when applied properly!
But they also have a weight and cost penalty. The advantage in aerodynamics
is not huge, but it is there.

 

As a generalization:  for a roughly circular fuselage, you should get
minimum interference drag if the wing joins onto the fuselage at a straight
line to the centre of the fuselage (ie perpendicular to the fuselage
surface).  As you get further away from the aerodynamic effect of the
fuselage (a fuselage diameter or so out) you can straighten the wing out to
the desired dihedral angle (in a graceful arc rather than a kink, of
course).  A mid wing aircraft should have the wing making a straight line to
the centre of the fuse.  A high wing aircraft should have a gull wing  and a
low wing aircraft should have an inverted gull (like the F4U Corsair fighter
of WW2).  Note that this theory was also applied to various aircraft with
wings mounted on pylons above the fuselage (eg PBY Catalina, Slingsby T21).
(A side note was that some late 1930's aircraft had a reduction in chord
right near the wing root to also try and reduce the interference drag.  Eg
He 111 bomber and Lysander army co-op aircraft).

 

Of course, where they went wrong in the 'old days' with gull wings was that
they were copying bird wings (albatrosses and similar) which had the bend in
the wing for completely different reasons (and places), or worse they bent
the wing for aesthetic reasons.  Because it was often misapplied, it worked
on some aircraft and not others.

 

A couple of things then happened: The first was it was easier to get big
gains in performance by using better airfoils (NACA 6 series and then
Wortmann and Eppler etc).  Then almost everyone went to the mid wing
configuration anyway and the concept all but died out.  Powered aircraft
don't bother with it because the higher cost and weight of the gull wing
over ride the improvement in performance. 

 

There was at least one project for a gull wing standard class glider in
recent years in Germany.  The project was aimed at minimum interference drag
at the wing root and aimed to have a high mounted wing so that the gull wing
would join on the fuselage at a region where there was the least AoA
alteration due to flow around the fuselage (ie a sweet spot on the fuse).  I
did see some concept pics at the Streifeneder web site years ago, but they
are not there now. 

 

As far as the kinky wings go, I am sure that the performance improvement
from the polyhedral (multi-dihedral?) design more than compensates for the
losses from the kinks in the wing in the same way that the poly tapered
Discus planform had a significant performance gain more than the losses from
the kinks in the wing taper.

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of
gstev...@bigpond.com
Sent: Thursday, 23 December 2010 7:38 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] At long last

 

Now that Chris is a very KINKY comment!

 

Seriously, in the old days Gull wings were a fad that did nothing for the
performance - somebody please correct me if I am wrong!

However in this age of mathematical certainty, and more relevantly,
extensive wind tunnel testing, I would be surprised if your comment would
hold up under analysis for modern ships. 

I do however take it as a 'bit in cheek comment.

Gary

- Original Message - 

From: C K mailto:fibremi...@gmail.com  

To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net  

Sent: Thursday, December 23, 2010 5:37 PM

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] At long last

 

Congratulations to the team. I hope the performance increase is enough to
overcome all the performance reducing kinks in the wing.
Have an enjoyable Christmas.

Chris



On Thu, Dec 23, 2010 at 3:15 PM, Future Aviation ec...@internode.on.net
wrote:

Dear fello gliding addicts.

It might have taken a bit longer than expected but it looks like it
was worth the wait.

http://www.alexander-schleicher.de/index_e.htm

A new chapter in gliding history or just another generation of open
class gliders? Only time will tell!

May I take this opportunity to wish all glider pilots and their
families a Merry Christmas and many enjoyable flights in 2011.

Bernard




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Re: [Aus-soaring] Kinky gulls

[Anthony Smith]

Yes.

The mathematics for a 2D wing (ie planar wing) resolve down to minimum
induced drag is for an elliptical planform (Supermarine Spitfire being the
all time classic example).  The downwash behind such a wing in theory is
uniform across the span (and therefore it has a uniform CL too across the
span).  The only issue then becomes the entire wing reaching CL max (ie
stall) at once - a spectacularly abrupt stall, and probably a 'wing dropper'
when thermalling.  

The mathematics for 3D wings resolves to min induced drag with elliptical
dihedral too - the wing essentially morphs into really graceful blended
winglets at the tips.  The size of the ellipse for the dihedral (controlling
blended winglet height) starts to increase the surface area of the wing too
much and the increase in profile drag starts to overcome the induced drag
benefit.

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of DMcD
Sent: Thursday, 23 December 2010 10:37 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Kinky gulls

As far as the kinky wings go, I am sure that the performance improvement
from the polyhedral (multi-dihedral?) design more than compensates for the
losses from the kinks in the wing in the same way that the poly tapered
Discus planform had a significant performance gain more than the losses from
the kinks in the wing taper.

Isn't it true though that a smoothly eliptical foil in both plan and
dihedral is better than a kinked wing and that the reason this only
exists on models and in theory is that the cost of making the mould to
produce a smooth profile in dihedral or plan is considered too
expensive?

D

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Pregnant planes

[Anthony Smith]

I would need to see a couple of pics and see. A bit of data would also help
eg weight increase from the pregnancy and how much faster does it cruise. 

It is possible that there is some kind of separation issue under the wing
adjacent to the fuse that was magically fixed / reduced by the wider rear
seat. From memory the underside of the wing was pretty flat though (not a
lot of under side camber).

I doubt we will be able to work it without playing with a normal Super Cub
and some tape and wool.


-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Texler,
Michael
Sent: Friday, 24 December 2010 11:54 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Pregnant planes

 
on a similar topic a friend From NZ tells me the pregnant Supercub
(widened in back seat for 2 people) cruises faster than normal cub.  I
have never asked Gavin Wills about this. Not sure why.  
 
The area rule? ;-) Applies to transonic aircraft, might get a Supercub
going that fast
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Area_rule
 
Just guessing that the widened fuselage may provide a smoother contour
and hence less profile drag?

Is there a real answer from an aeronautical engineer?

Merry Christmas all

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Blaniks (was IS28 Trailer)

[Anthony Smith]

Personally, I wouldn't hold a lot of hope for the poor old L-13.  

 

Eddy current testing through other layers of metal to detect cracks is
difficult (and you will need specialist gear and probably a specialist
operator).  A lot of operators of old aircraft (particularly Oz Dept of
Defence and similar) is investing a lot of money into this area and it is
still in the 'experimental' area, even for scanning through a single layer
of intervening metal (ie a simple scab patch on a metal aircraft).  The more
layers you have to look through to detect a crack, the more unreliable your
results get.

 

The most reliable way from a crack detection point of view would be to
remove the layers of metal that are in the way.  This isn't so easy on the
traditional Blanik.  The Lewellyn mod may be the only real answer and the
cost of installing the mod may be prohibitive. 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Kym Z
Sent: Saturday, 20 November 2010 11:24 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Blaniks (was IS28 Trailer)

 

Hi Peter,

I received an email update via USA.  You've probably already seen the
statement from A.I. Kunovice, but the SSA's comments are interesting -
perhaps we may end up with a modified version of the eddy current testing
which we already do here in Aus.

Email copied below FYI:

As most SSA members and users of the ubiquitous L-13 Blanik know, this 
glider has been the subject of a number of manufacturer's Mandatory 
Service Bulletins and Airworthiness Directives issued by the European 
Aviation Safety Administration EASA), and more recently by the FAA. 
Currently most of the world's fleet of L-13's is grounded.

At the request of SSA and numbers of other organizations and operators 
around the world, the holder of the current Type Certificate (Aircraft 
Industries in Kunovice, Czech Republic) has provided the following 
statement:

Kunovice September 30, 2010

OPINION Aircraft Industries, a.s. on the means to restore airworthiness 
of GLIDERS L 13 and L 13 A

With regard to the accident glider L 13 sn 175117 (in Austria 12 June 
2010), where the initial findings first led investigators to suspect 
the fatigue cracks associated with fracture of the left wing flange 
where it joins the hinge leaf; and also identified a significant strain 
due to high overall acrobatic flight frequency of about 8% of the last 
400 hours of operation (with the previous roughly 2000 hours of 
operation not having any records at all) - to the attention of 
operators and certification agencies concerned with the problem of 
fatigue life of the glider and criteria for its certification.

Investigation of the accident is still not officially closed.

Aircraft Industries, as manufacturer, stresses that the service life of 
L 13 gliders and other related types is based on the concept of safe 
life, which was established based on fatigue tests of the glider and 
fatigue tests of samples. Tests consisted of applied cyclic loading 
derived from the published average operating conditions in the glider's 
operational documentation. In the event that actual operating 
conditions of the glider deviate towards greater burden on the glider 
(the frequency of improper acrobatics, etc.), safe life of the glider 
drops significantly below the standard service life.

Following the issue of Mandatory Bulletin L13/109a and EASA AD 
2010-0119-E, it was revealed that many gliders L 13 have missing or 
incomplete records of actual operating conditions. This situation 
precludes the ability to assess what proportion of fatigue life has 
been exhausted and what part remains available, which is contrary to 
the concept of safe fatigue life.

In this situation, taking into account the finding that visual 
inspection of the critical binding site required by Bulletin L13/109a 
is unable to ensure reliable identification of all cracks, Aircraft 
Industries a.s. considers that the appropriate way to restore the 
airworthiness of gliders L 13 and L 13A is the development, 
certification and deployment of NDT methods that can reliably identify 
any incipient cracks in critical areas, together with the determination 
of periodic tests and analysis of the speed of crack propagation at 
critical locations to determine residual structural strength in 
critical areas. Aircraft Industries a.s., in cooperation with the 
Research and Testing Institute in Prague is preparing a system of 
checks using the eddy current technique. Given that the critical 
point is hidden below the two layers of sheet metal and flat head 
rivets, the development of the means of processing the data is more 
time consuming.

Aircraft Industries a.s. expects to restore the airworthiness of 
gliders with proper operational records, by implementation of approved 
NDT methods with satisfactory results. Furthermore, we assume that the 
method will be 

[Aus-soaring] Speed to fly and g load

[Anthony Smith]

Hi Bernard

I had a look through Fred Thomas: Fundamentals of Sailplane Design as well
as Frank Irving: The paths of Soaring Flight.  For once I think Frank Irving
explained it better!

Ultimately the best speed to fly is proportional to the square root of the g
load as we discussed on the phone.  The best way to explain it I think is
this:

The lift to drag ratio at any particular lift co-efficient is constant.  If
we increase the g load to 1.4 g, our best L/D is increased by a factor of
1.18 (the square root of 1.4) to maintain the best L/D lift co-efficient.
At this new speed, the drag will be 1.4 times the drag at 1 g at best L/D
but our sink rate will be increased by 1.66 times (the best L/D sink rate to
the power of 1.5).   

Enjoy NZ and don't drink all the Sav Blanc

Anthony

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Training via Simulator

[anthony . smith]

  
 
Er.. I know Rolf is TIC here but unfortunately the computer doesn't 
insert the required miracle in time. See media reports of an Oz 
Defence Force UAV which crashed in Canada a little while ago with a 
trainee operator driving it. 
 
 On Thu 30/09/10 3:28 PM , rolf a. buelter rbuel...@hotmail.com 
sent: 
   And first solo is conducted on an UAV where the on board computer 
takes seamlessly over if the pilot makes a stupid mistake :-) 
 
 Rolf 
 
  Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 12:53:51 +1000 
  From: gr...@actionforms.com.au 
  To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net 
  Subject: [Aus-soaring] Training via Simulator 
   
  The Lismore Aero club have a PC with dual screens and a joystick 
running a 
  flight simulator. Current students show new students how to use the 
  simulator and fly circuits. New students don't get to fly aircraft 
until 
  they can successfully complete circuits on the simulator. 
   
  This reduces costs for the students and wear on the training 
aircraft and 
  instructors. 
   
  It's about time gliding started using technology to help people 
learn to fly. 
   
  Cheers, 
   
  Greg. 
   
   
   
   The software is Condor as far as I know, which is certainly 
capable of 
   spinning, but I doubt the simulator will accurately represent the 
'feel' 
   of 
   it. 
   
   I have demonstrated spins in condor to people before and it's 
great for 
   demonstrating rate of height loss as well as airspeed in a fully 
developed 
   spin. Conventional recovery procedure works the same as usual. 
   
   I do not think anyone is (yet?) advocating for simulators to 
replace 
   conventional two-seat training, but rather to supplement it. One 
could do 
   several hundred circuits in a simulator over the course of a day, 
whereas 
   the best I've managed at my club is probably six. 
   
   ~Matthew~ 
   On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 12:29 PM, Mike Borgelt  
   mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com wrote: 
   
   At 11:02 AM 30/09/2010, you wrote: 
   
   I've seen a few gliding simulators come and go, and this is 
without a 
   doubt the most promising with regards to meaningful training of 
new 
   pilots. 
   Hope to see you all there! 
   -- Forwarded message -- 
   From: Andrew Wright   andrew.wri...@adelaide.edu.au 
   Date: Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:28 AM 
   Subject: [Ascmembers] Exciting new developements in Gliding 
Simulator 
   
   Hi Everyone. 
   
   
   
   This is one not to be missed!. 
   
   
   
   A new motion interactive gliding simulator will be demonstrated 
at the 
   next SAGA Winter lecture. 
   
   
   
   Does it spin? 
   
   Must ask because that seems to be the first question asked by 
   Australians 
   when a new two seat basic training glider is mentioned. 
   
   Mike 
   
   
   Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring 
instruments since 
   1978 
   phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 
  begin_of_the_skype_highlighting + 61 746 
  355784 end_of_the_skype_highlighting 
   fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 
   cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 
   
   email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com 
   website: www.borgeltinstruments.com 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Fwd: [Ascmembers] Exciting new developements inGliding Simulator

[anthony . smith]

  
 
I am told that it does indeed spin.   
 
I am told that initial testing showed that the forces/motions applied 
to the cockpit had to be moderated so that the pilot was not subjected 
to undue strain (ie not flung out of the sim).  
 
 On Thu 30/09/10 12:29 PM , Mike Borgelt 
mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com sent: 
  At 11:02 AM 30/09/2010, you wrote: 
 I've seen a few gliding simulators come and go, and this is without  
 a doubt the most promising with regards to meaningful training of  
 new pilots. Hope to see you all there! 
 -- Forwarded message -- 
 From: Andrew Wright  
  
 Date: Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:28 AM 
 Subject: [Ascmembers] Exciting new developements in Gliding 
Simulator 
  
 Hi Everyone. 
  
  
  
 This is one not to be missed!. 
  
  
  
 A new motion interactive gliding simulator will be demonstrated at  
 the next SAGA Winter lecture. 
  
  
 
 Does it spin? 
 
 Must ask because that seems to be the first question asked by  
 Australians when a new two seat basic training glider is mentioned. 
 
 Mike 
 
 Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments 
since 1978 
 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 
 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 
 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 
 
 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com 
 website: www.borgeltinstruments.com [1]  
 
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[Aus-soaring] Peter Masak's book on Performance Enhancement of Modern Sailplanes

[Anthony Smith]

Hi all,

Many years ago I bought a copy of Performance Enhancement of Modern
Sailplanes by Peter Masak.  Since then I have regularly loaned it to
interested parties (most likely at the coaching week at Waikerie).

At the moment it is not in my library.  If you did happen to borrow it from
me and still have it, could you please return it?

Cheers

Anthony

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Felt for Tail Dolly?

[Anthony Smith]

Which reminds me of a rather famous quote from one night at the Adelaide Uni
GC shed at West Beach:

Redmond, where do you go to get felt?



-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of David
Conway
Sent: Tuesday, 21 September 2010 8:54 PM
To: aviatrix726-soar...@yahoo.co.uk; 'Discussion of issues relating to
Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Felt for Tail Dolly?

It's referred to as engineering felt and is available in various grades

Look up in www.yellowpages.com.au

http://www.yellowpages.com.au/search/listings?clue=feltlocationClue=All+Sta
tesx=38y=16

Cheers

David

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Jenny
Ganderton
Sent: Tuesday, 21 September 2010 7:29 PM
To: Aus-Soaring
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Felt for Tail Dolly?

Hi all
Does anyone know where you can obtain felt (preferably white) suitable 
for relining a tail dolly? I think it would need to be about 5mm thick. 
The original felt has worn very thin.

Thanks
Jenny
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Tape

[anthony . smith]

  
 
FWIW I use a couple of different tapes:  
 
- Short term use ie a few months (eg wing roots) I use the Bowlus 
tape from Bruce Taylor.  
 
- Long term use ie 12 months or more, I use 3M type 471 tape. The 3M 
stuff is available from most packaging distributors and can be cut to 
a custom width (suits some of the wider gaps on the old Bergy). Whilst 
it is more expensive, it is exceedingly good and very, very durable.  
 
All of the adhesives used by tape manufacturers are liable to react 
with UV light and will leave a hard yellow residue after a very long 
period of application. You may wish to either: replace the tape every 
12 months and do a small amount of clean up each time, or replace the 
tape when it has completely deteriorated and do a major clean up. The 
3M tape I had on the Bergy's elevator trim tab was in place for nearly 
5 years before the 10 yearly survey caught up with it 
 
 Anthony  
 
 On Wed 22/09/10 9:12 AM , Grant Davies gr...@davies.id.au sent: 
 
*
 
Hi there,  
 
Can anyone point me in the right direction for good tape for wings 
and control surfaces please?  
 
The cheap cloth stuff has way too much glue and when the it 
deteriorates (way to soon) I always have a big messy job ahead of me 
to clean it all off.   
 
Kindest Regards  
 
Grant Davies  
 
m. 0419 818 315  
 
f. 07 41 54 14 36  
 
e. gr...@davies.id.au  
 
FROM: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] ON BEHALF OF Jenny 
Ganderton 
 SENT: Tuesday, 21 September 2010 10:48 PM 
 TO: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia. 
 SUBJECT: Re: [Aus-soaring] Felt for Tail Dolly?  
 
Hi Catherine,
 
I found that place on the internet, but wasn't sure what grade I 
would need. Thanks for your help.   
 
Jenny 
 
 --- On TUE, 21/9/10, CATHERINE CONWAY __wrote:  
 
 From: Catherine Conway  
 Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Felt for Tail Dolly? 
 To: aviatrix726-soar...@yahoo.co.uk , AUS Soaring  
 Received: Tuesday, 21 September, 2010, 9:05 PM   
 
Usually the specification for such felt which needs to be dense and a 
bit hard is engineering firm white felt (fwf) 
 
 Try this place 
 
 http://www.feltfabricating.com/ [1] 
 
 Unfortunately it's not cheap  
 
 Cath 
 
 Sent from my iPhone 
 
 On 21/09/2010, at 7:31 PM, Jenny Ganderton  wrote: 
 
  Hi all 
  Does anyone know where you can obtain felt (preferably white) 
suitable  
  for relining a tail dolly? I think it would need to be about 5mm 
thick.  
  The original felt has worn very thin. 
   
  Thanks 
  Jenny 
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[Aus-soaring] Soaring Possums(?) and dynamic soaring

[Anthony Smith]

Gary

 

Whilst at uni, a bloke in the year above me researched the glide ratio of Sugar 
Gliders.  He used dead specimens collected from assorted zoos across Australia 
that were frozen in their gliding posture.  During his final presentation he 
told the story that during his study, he had a lot of trouble with the 
mechanical bits of the wind tunnel.  One day when he had difficulty, he forgot 
to put his Sugar Glider specimen back into the freezer.  Some hours later with 
the mechanical bits sorted, he turned the tunnel back on, only to have his now 
thawed dead possum tear itself off its mounts and disappear down the tunnel – 
towards the fan.  He then spent hours cleaning up bits of possum from the wind 
tunnel.  I forget what the actual measured glide ratio was.

 

As far as dynamic soaring goes, I think the USAF researched it a little while 
back using L23’s pulling up into wind gradients.

 

Anthony

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Gary Stevenson
Sent: Monday, 30 August 2010 2:56 AM
To: usta...@internode.on.net; Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in 
Australia.
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Soaring Birds

 

Ulrich,

That is beautifully written, and so true.

 

Your comment on flying with a wedge tail eagle reminds me of a chance encounter 
I once had in a thermal with a gaggle of 5 Wedge Tailed Eagles,at a place now 
long gone, called Bowling Green [Ingo Renner used it as a TP for a very 
successful 100 km triangle world record attempt, many years ago] in southern 
NSW. 

 

[Apart from that one encounter, and over a period of more than 30 years 
gliding, I have never seen more than two eagles together on the wing before or 
since, and even then, never in a gaggle.]

 

 I joined their gaggle just slightly above them (they did not scatter on my 
approach), and thus I was able to observe them at very close quarters. I noted 
there was quite a difference in the size of the birds [was this some sort of 
family?], but the one thing that has stayed with me to this very day is the 
differentiation in markings of these birds. From above, it was very obvious 
that each bird had totally different upper surface wing markings. Why has this 
not been recorded in the definifitative texts? It is very obvious: No one (to 
my knowledge), had ever observed and reported on this phenomenon of a wedge 
tailed eagle gaggle (family?) from above.

 

Moving on.

In what now seems to be almost another life, I had (quite by chance), the 
opportunity to observe the Wandering Albatross (Diomeda  exulans), totally free 
in its natural environment in the middle of the Southern Ocean. David 
Attenborough has done a definitive photo study on this  the most studied of 
birds but unfortunately I did not find the link to his doco on the subject, so 
that I might post it here. I suggest that if you have any interest in soaring, 
you follow this up. I am not sure if it was mentioned in the doco, but these 
birds can potentially live for at least 50 years. In most cases they mate for 
life. The major threat to their lives is  the hooks on long line fishing  
systems. They go for the bait, get snagged by the hook, and drown.

 

Let me make some points and ask some questions:

 

Firstly, a personal statement  - despite the amount of research that has been 
done, I suspect that there are further surprises when it comes to considering 
the many aspects of  the Wandering Albatross.

 

It is suggested in the literature that their glide ratio is about 22:1. How was 
this derived and by whom?

 

From observation, I found that each and every bird has its own unique 
markings, and was therefore instantly recognisable.

 

It is total nonsense to believe that any Albatross flies for ever, and does not 
settle quite comfortably on the surface of the ocean below.

 

The folding of all that wing (up to 4 m span), is something that has to be seen 
to be believed.{There is potentially  a possible commercial/military payoff 
here.}

 

These birds are masters of dynamic soaring.

 

Ingo proposed and demonstrated (many years ago), that under a specifically 
defined set of conditions, dynamic soaring is possible for gliding pilots. As 
far as I know this has never been followed up.

 

If you think you are good, do you think you can better soar than a Wandering 
Albatross?

 

Regards,

Gary

 

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: Ulrich Stauss mailto:usta...@internode.on.net  

To: Discussion of issues relating to 
mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net  Soaring in Australia. 

Sent: Saturday, August 28, 2010 11:26 PM

Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Death of a movement - start of a sport

 

Hi Andrew,

any chance of involving the family in your flying adventures? It would probably 
mean sacrificing a little of your own flying and a somewhat greater financial 
burden but it can pay off big time further down the track. With 3 kids and a 
wife who gets 

Re: [Aus-soaring] L-13 etc

[anthony . smith]

 Out of interest Mike, out of your little EEA group that are ex-glider 
pilots, what kind of flying are they doing now in their ultralights / 
homebuilts? Local flying, cross-country / touring???  
 
 On Wed 25/08/10 5:31 PM , Mike Borgelt 
mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com sent: 
  At 03:15 PM 25/08/2010, you wrote: 
 Which probably begs the question 'how many pilots try ultralights  
 and walk away every year?' 
  
  
 Cheers 
  
 Derek 
 
 When you are growing at 8 to 9.5% a year and the rate is increasing  
 you must be doing something right. 
 
 Might be more interesting to know how many are disillusioned GFA  
 members. Most of the people in our little EAA group here were glider  
 pilots at one time. Now they fly RAAus or experimental homebuilts on 
PPLs. 
 
 Mike 
 Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments 
since 1978 
 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 
 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 
 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 
 
 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com [1] 
 website: www.borgeltinstruments.com [2]  
 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] UK airspace incursion

[anthony . smith]

  
 
It must be difficult at this time of the year airspace wise, as there 
is an airshow on almost every weekend somewhere in the country during 
the summer holiday season. The quantity of NOTAMs or equivalent must 
be staggering.  
 
J and I did a holiday over there some years back and went to the 
Duxford airshow (absolutely the best airshow I have ever been to btw). 
Whilst we were at the show we met a whole stack of backpackers who 
were airshow junkies and were traversing the countryside simply to go 
to where ever the next airshow was... last weekend was so and so, this 
weekend is Duxford, next weekend is such and such. Sure enough the air 
show proceedings were delayed whilst a glider wandered through the 
middle of it all. I always wondered how close he came to having a 
Spitfire intercept and escort him out of the area.  
 
My one bit of flying there, in a Bergfalke 4 no less : ) , was at 
Burn gliding club. Whilst flying in the hazy summer weather, we had 
gliders local soaring, a Canberra bomber (the last of the EW ones) 
doing racetracks overhead and the power jocks from the next airfield 
over zipping by. All very busy. 
 
 On Wed 25/08/10 12:50 PM , rolf a. buelter rbuel...@hotmail.com 
sent: 
   Hi Adam, 
 
 Don't think age of the pilots involved makes a scrap of difference, 
being nationals one would hope the necessary experience would have 
provided better outcomes. I read a number of posts in various forums 
(would forae be correcter?) and the task was close but not through 
airspace. There is some confusion if it was briefed appropriately. 
 
 Rgds - Rolf 
 
- 
 From: aussiejuniort...@hotmail.com 
 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net 
 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 11:36:15 +0930 
 Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Another UK accident 
 
  I knew someone would point that out! Sadly yes, it did happen there. 
It would've only been marginally better if it happened at a seniors.. 
Spoke to Andy May the other night about it, he said it was due to poor 
task setting. WPP 
   FROM: rolf a. buelter [1]  SENT: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 11:16 
AM TO: aus soaring [2]  SUBJECT: Re: [Aus-soaring] Another UK accident 
 
 Dare one add that the occasion was their junior nationals? 
 
 Rolf 
 
- 
 From: aussiejuniort...@hotmail.com [3] 
 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net [4] 
 Date: Wed, 25 Aug 2010 10:48:46 +0930 
 Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Another UK accident 
 
 Not good, though worse yet is the 21 pilots who flew through the red 
arrows display and had it cancelled! Wonder what that'll mean for UK 
gliding in the future.. : ( Thank gosh the pilot is ok, WPP   
   FROM: Christopher Mc Donnell [5]  SENT: Wednesday, August 25, 2010 
9:08 AM TO: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net [6]  SUBJECT: 
[Aus-soaring] Another UK accident  
  Pic is one in a million
http://www.theargus.co.uk/news/8348523.Glider_crashes_at_Shoreham_Airshow/ 
[7]  
- 
 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] L-13

[Anthony Smith]

The initiative of a cheap flight data recorder is good.  Given the profusion
of Flarm and other flight data loggers (which collect most of the parameters
you want anyway), what you really want is a cheap fatigue meter. 

 

The problem you will face is that the principal cost in a fatigue monitoring
program isn't the cost of the fatigue meter.

 

Once you have a fatigue meter fitted to a fleet of fatigue prone airframes,
who is going to crunch all the data that is collected?  The time and effort
to process the information into something useable by the owners / operators
is quite considerable and normally only expended on 'expensive' aircraft.

 

This all being said, the Blanik will expire sooner rather than later, simply
because there is not have sufficient data to guarantee that the risks are
low enough to continue operating them.  How many other metal gliders are
there out there in significant numbers?  KRO-3 Puchatek, Pilatus B-4, IS-28,
IS-29?

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of
ventu...@unwired.com.au
Sent: Saturday, 21 August 2010 4:15 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] L-13

 


I see this issue as a heads up to the need for developing and fielding a
glider FDR.

 

The commercial aviation world lives with monitoring, engines for
performance, temps, fuel burn etc, airframes for fatigue etc.  They know
there are issues, and they don't like nasty surprises. They want to avoid
disasters obviously, but they also want to avoid costly damage  repairs,
and on the other side, the unnecessary expense of unnecessary maintenance.
The extension of many TBO's has only been made possible by the building of
the appropriate operational data records that allowed extensions to those
TBO's.  Thus, Condition Monitoring is now an integral part of the business.

 

The gliding world has been hit with a nasty surprise.  The effects of L-13
grounding, if permanent, will be severe, and may terminally damage gliding
in this country, and perhaps some others.  Perhaps gliding should consider
catching up with commercial aviation thinking, in a hurry.

 

The technology exists today to design, build and field a relatively simple
and cheap GFDR, using single chip 3 axis accelerometers, that could record
all necessary parameters quite simply, which could be downloaded and stored
on PC's just as easily as our existing loggers.  The downloads should also
be regularly uploaded to a central repository at say GFA (or elsewhere), and
could also be used by clubs and RTOA's etc to monitor not only individual
aircraft, but type and fleet usage trends.  The data may also have secondary
benefits in monitoring flight performance with a view to indirectly
assisting in analyzing the effectiveness of training etc.  In the worst
case, they may even be of invaluable assistance in accident investigation.

 

Perhaps some of our techno-savvy / engineering students / young guns in the
Joey League, might like to give this matter some thought.  Sound like a good
thesis project for an Engineering Student at an Australian University doing
Aeronautical Engineering, or System Process and Control Electronic
Engineering, or similar ?   God forbid, perhaps even the GFA might consider
sponsoring a design contest, and the development of a prototype or two.
Comments ?

 

 

 

 

- Original Message - 

From: emilis prelgauskas mailto:emi...@emilis.sa.on.net  

To: Discussion of issues relating to
mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net  Soaring in Australia. 

Sent: Saturday, August 21, 2010 3:37 PM

Subject: [Aus-soaring] L13

 

Thank you Ian, for your work to connect people with L13 with people with
older 2 seaters for interim loan, hire, etc.
Those who offered 2 seaters on the list might like to either join that
matching service or look at the loan, hire, etc. methods being used
with an eye to the capital capabilities of the clubs affected. 



The factory email to me:

Dear L13, L13A BLANIK operators,
 
Let me call your attention to new issued EASA AD No.: 2010-0160-E dated
30.7. 2010. Its full text is attached.
 
The AD establishes stricter conditions for next operation of the L13, L13A
BLANIK with immediate validity.
The gliders whose complete history of flight spectrum is not proved are
prohibited to operate.
Acrobatic flights are prohibited.
The gliders whose flight limits were exceed more than 50% of dual flights
and/or acrobatic flights are more then 2% and/or the gliders flew more than
5 take offs per 1 flight hour - the gliders are grounded.
 
By this information all evaluations and statements issued by Aircraft
Industries, a.s. till today loose their validity. If the gliders do not
comply with the conditions mentioned hereinabove their next operation is
prohibited.
 
We are sorry for this information. However we are in intensive deal with
EASA and we try to find a solution.
 
Thank you for your 

Re: [Aus-soaring] Foka Wings

[Anthony Smith]

See http://www.sylacaugasoaring.com/SZD%20COBRA%20WARNING.htm 

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Peter
Stephenson
Sent: Saturday, 14 August 2010 9:25 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Incident in the UK

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foka_%28glider%29
No mention on how the wings are connected.
PeterS

On 13/08/2010 12:00 AM, gavin wrigley wrote: 

Not too much known at the moment, but I believe that the glider was a Foka. 
 
 Date: Thu, 12 Aug 2010 12:34:24 +1000
 From: p...@internode.on.net
 To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
 Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Incident in the UK
 
 
 I do not like the Twin Astir wing connection system because it is hard 
 to check that the connectors are in the correct position. Just checking 
 them can inadvertently disconnect them!
 PeterS
 
  On 12/08/2010 10:07 AM, Mike Borgelt wrote:
  It is possible to fly and not have the wings come off even without 
  the main pin on a Slingsby Kestrel.
 
  Happened to a pilot I knew in the UK. Fortunately the wings didn't 
  part company until the end of the landing roll after an auto tow 
  when he noticed that BOTH wingtips were resting on the ground.
 
  Sounds like this may have been a K13. Anybody know for sure? The 
  Brits had a wing come off a K7 a few years ago under similar 
  circumstances IIRC.
 
  Mike
 
  At 09:15 AM 12/08/2010, you wrote:
  From several reports you can perhaps read between the lines that the 
  wings both fell off at the top of a winch launch.
  Aircraft was rigged and flown once previously in the day.
 
 
  - Original Message - From: Dave Donald
mailto:icans...@y7mail.com icans...@y7mail.com
  To: aus-soaring  mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
  Sent: Thursday, August 12, 2010 8:20 AM
  Subject: [Aus-soaring] Incident in the UK
 
 
  Does anyone know anything about this?
 
 
http://www.news.com.au/world/woman-killed-when-wings-fall-off-glider/story-e
6frfkyi-1225904193456 
 
 
 
  Dave
 
 
 
 
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  Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments 
  since 1978
  phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
  fax Int'l + 61 746 358796
  cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
 
  email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Energy management, and who said flying light twins was BORING?

[anthony . smith]

  
 
 Mike  
 
Do you have a copy of Barnaby Wainfan's article that explains his 
opinions? I wouldn't mind a peruse as I am sure that I can come up 
with a few arguments to the contrary. 
 
 Anthony  
 
 On Thu 29/07/10 9:13 AM , Mike Borgelt 
mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com sent: 
  Barnaby Wainfan does an aerodynamics column in Kitplanes. 
 
 He's also a Private and glider pilot. 
 
 IIRC when analysing aircraft configuration dependent spin recovery  
 tendencies light twins with engines on the wings were a bad spin  
 recovery configuration. 
 Sailplanes were similar in his opinion. 
 
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[Aus-soaring] Another Australian aviation hero moves on

[anthony . smith]

  
 
A hero of the technological era of aviation.  
 

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/business/aviation/black-box-inventor-david-warren-dies-at-85/story-e6frg95x-1225895120709
 
[1] 
 
 
Links: 
-- 
[1] 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] BGA accidents

[anthony . smith]

 I had a brief peruse of it last night as well. Did it mention what 
percentage of flights / hours were TIFs / AEFs or did I miss that 
part? 
 
 On Wed 31/03/10 12:47 PM , gavin wrigley gavi...@hotmail.com sent: 
   Worthwhile reading. 
 
 Of interestthe BGA 'Basic' instructor rating requires a very 
serious effort to attain. If reccommended, the candidate has to pay a 
substantial fee and then attend (at least) three days of theory and 
practical training. There is a sort of probation period and then an 
'acceptance' test before being allowed to take 'Trial Lessons'/Air 
experience flights. Without going into detail, I am sure that the 
training is more thorough than GFA require for a similar privelige.  
 
 The UK hase more changeable weather, some 'interesting' airfields, 
AND COMMERCIAL PRESSURE. 
 
 The fact that these 'Trial' flights have a disproportionate rate of 
crashery has been observed (by the BGA instructors panel) for a while 
 
 'Basic' Instructors use Trial flights to build experience/hours. 
 
 The Clubs use this to build revenue. Very few 'Trial Flights' return 
as members...most are revenue earners/grandpa's birthdays etc. 
 
 Beware the revenue trap/gift certificate/treasurers agenda!!! 
 
  Date: Tue, 30 Mar 2010 19:03:49 +1000 
  To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net 
  From: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com 
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] BGA accidents 
   
  Go here and download the file 
   
   
  http://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/safety/newsletters.htm 
   
  Seems their trial instructional flights are more dangerous than  
  sporting gliding. 
   
  I don't see any recognition of the real problem though. 
   
   
  Mike 
  Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments 
since 1978 
  phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 
  fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 
  cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 
   
  email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com 
  website: www.borgeltinstruments.com  
   
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- 
 Meet local singles online. Browse profiles for FREE! [1]  
 
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[Aus-soaring] Variometers

[Anthony Smith]

Hi all,

 

The Adelaide Uni GC is interested in acquiring a second hand B40 vario
(functioning) and perhaps a second hand mechanical vario (also functioning).

 

If you have either of the above, please contact me off list with an offer.

 

Merry Christmas

 

Anthony

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Re: [Aus-soaring] coloured markings

[anthony . smith]

  
 
I do recall once seeing an SZD Pirat which had very large areas of 
flouro orange on it. It was eye watering up close. You certainly could 
positively identify it from a long way away.  
 
Despite having bright or obvious markings, you still need to look 
out. One of the (less than) amusing things with Justine's photography 
of other gliders whilst flying is seeing how many pics actually have 
the pilot of the other glider looking back at us. It is a depressingly 
small number on some occaisions. We have even had the occaision where 
we have shown the other pilot the pics after the flight and get the 
startled look and question When did you take those?. 
 
 Anthony  
 
 On Wed 25/11/09 8:52 AM , Colin Collyer c.coll...@aerosonde.com 
sent: 
 
*  
* 
 
Hi All  
 
 Re David L’s note, my experience is just the opposite. I fly free 
flight, and seeing the models from a distance is important, as you 
can’t time it if you can’t see it. Generally dark colours on the 
bottom to stand out against sky, and bright colours on the top and 
‘sides’ to stand out on the ground. Silver Mylar ( reflective ) is 
the best method of ‘spotting’ models at a distance as it flashes 
at least once every circle. Top of tips and fuselage sides work best  
 
 Also I fly Scale gliders, and definitely white is not a high vis 
colour. Models with big block rego on the bottom stand out much 
better.  
 
 To make fluros work, they need to be of a fair area, and outlined 
in thick black, and are better for looking down on, not up.  
 
 The atmosphere and relationship between the sun and viewer has more 
effect than all of the above !  
 
 There was a Kooka at Bordertown white with red tips (nearly half 
span) with big bold GNZ on the bottom, and it could be seen for 
miles…… maybe that’s the answer  
 
 Cheers  
 
 Col  
 
-Original Message- 
 FROM: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] ON BEHALF OF David 
Lawley 
 SENT: Wednesday, November 25, 2009 8:23 AM 
 TO: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net 
 SUBJECT: [Aus-soaring] coloured markings  
 
Hi all, 
 
 On the subject of visibility markings. 
 
 Some years ago I found one of my comp F3B models hard to see at a 
distance in its all white paint scheme. 
 
 I put large flurescent geen/orange and red stripes on the wing-and 
it made no difference. 
 
 Even gliders with red noses and rudders are no more visible at a 
distance. I remember reading somewhere once that small distant objects 
appear gray/black regardless of coulouring. The reason now eludes. 
 
 Solar cells are fine on an engine cover, as the doors are not 
carrying any structual load. I wonder about solar cells placed on wing 
roots however! 
 
 Dave L   
- 
 
Brought to you exclusively by Windows Live Download new and classic 
emoticon packs at Emoticon World [1] 
 
Links: 
-- 
[1] http://windowslive.ninemsn.com.au/emoticon.aspx? 
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[Aus-soaring] New winglets for Airbus A320 family

[anthony . smith]

  
 
 
http://www.eads.net/1024/en/businet/airbus/airbus_commercial_aircraft/airbus_press_releases/press/press/20091115_airbus_air_new_zealand_sharklet.html
 
[1]  
 
For those interested in winglets and the like  
 
Links: 
-- 
[1] 
http://www.eads.net/1024/en/businet/airbus/airbus_commercial_aircraft/airbus_press_releases/press/press/20091115_airbus_air_new_zealand_sharklet.html
 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] I want one !

[Anthony Smith]

Bah! There are no Bergfalkes!  (At least it saves me from making up and 
painting little naked pilots to make the model complete).

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of 
bb...@internode.on.net
Sent: Tuesday, 27 October 2009 9:49 AM
To: Aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] I want one !

 


Why stop at one?

http://www.cumulus-soaring.com/models.htm

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliding Men in suits (warning this posting maycontain humour...)

[anthony . smith]

 Why not. There have been a number of examples of the opposite, with 
pilots flying without clothing in the altogether. 
 
 On Thu 08/10/09 2:51 PM , Texler, Michael 
michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au sent: 
 
 We could always go retro. 
 The Adelaide Uni Gliding Club started life as the Adelaide 
University 
 Engineers Gliding Club. They flew is nice suits! 
 http://www.augc.on.net/Image.php?image=50 [1]  
 
 I dunno, perhaps we could have, Gliding in Suits day. 
 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliding Men in suits (warning this posting maycontain humour...)

[anthony . smith]

  
 
Strange as it may seem, that is one Bergfalke rating that I have not 
achieved.  
 
Of course in my case I would insist on it being mutual naked 
Bergfalke pilots. Just gotta make sure that all the prickles are 
removed from the cushions first.  
 
 On Fri 09/10/09 1:19 PM , Catherine Conway con...@agile.com.au sent: 
  You mean like the Naked Bergfalke Pilot rating ;)  
  On 08/10/2009, at 5:00 PM, anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net wrote: 
 Why not. There have been a number of examples of the opposite, with 
pilots flying without clothing in the altogether. 
 
 On Thu 08/10/09 2:51 PM , Texler, Michael 
michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au sent: 
 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliding Men in suits (warning this postingmaycontain humour...)

[anthony . smith]

  
 
Yes.   
 
Of course it is also a new use for those 'Remove Before Flight' 
tags. 
 
 On Fri 09/10/09 1:48 PM , Derek Ruddock derek.rudd...@optus.com.au 
sent: 
 
That’s the type of flight where you have to debriefing before the 
actual flight I suppose J  
 
-Original Message- 
 FROM: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net 
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] ON BEHALF OF 
anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net 
 SENT: Friday, 9 October 2009 2:00 PM 
 TO: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.; 
Catherine Conway 
 SUBJECT: Re: [Aus-soaring] Gliding Men in suits (warning this 
posting maycontain humour...)  
 
Strange as it may seem, that is one Bergfalke rating that I have not 
achieved.  
 
Of course in my case I would insist on it being mutual naked 
Bergfalke pilots. Just gotta make sure that all the prickles are 
removed from the cushions first.  
 
 ON FRI 09/10/09 1:19 PM , CATHERINE CONWAY con...@agile.com.au SENT: 
  
 
You mean like the Naked Bergfalke Pilot rating ;)
 
On 08/10/2009, at 5:00 PM, anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net wrote:  
 
Why not. There have been a number of examples of the opposite, with 
pilots flying without clothing in the altogether. 
 
 ON THU 08/10/09 2:51 PM , TEXLER, MICHAEL 
michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au [1] SENT:  
 
  
 
Links: 
-- 
[1] 
http://webmail.internode.on.net/JAVASCRIPT:TOP.OPENCOMPOSE(\\'michael.tex...@health.wa.gov.au\\',\\'\\',\\'\\',\\'\\')
 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] weighing aircraft

[anthony . smith]

 

Systems like this are offered as 'options' on several large
airliners.  Most airlines don't bother with it though.  The low uptake
of such technology by the airline companies suggest that there are
either some hidden problems or, more likely, ongoing costs that make
it prohibitive. 

A few thoughts as to why it isn't standard: 

- Regular calibration of the system.  This would be quite an ongoing
cost plus at least a couple of days down time whilst you do it. 

- Wind compensation.  Having weighed large aircraft, you would be
surprised by how much the numbers on the scales bounce around withthe
slightest breeze.  BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica,
sans-serif;font-size:12px; } 
 On Mon 22/06/09 12:37 PM , Mike Borgelt
mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com sent:
  At 12:41 PM 22/06/2009, you wrote: 
 Anyone see the breakdown of the tailstrike event at tulla recently
and think 
 eh? 
 How come pilots have to put a weight into the computer? 
 Why doesn't this type of a/c weigh itself? This is hardly high end
technical 
 stuff! 
 If it does, how come the pilots over-rode the number by so much? 
 WPP and kero burners, can you help? 
  
 Off- topic I know, happy to go personal 
  
 Wayne 
 I think the DC-9 had this. Also checked C of G. Probably more 
 important on a short haul aircraft but maybe it is a good idea to 
 keep the people in the loop in case the weighing system fails. 
 Billy Walker has something like this in his new glider design. 
 As for the Airbus tailstrike, you'd think that distance makers 
 alongside the runway with the crew checking acceleration (speed/time

 at each marker) would be a good idea. We have these markers at 
 Toowoomba which is unusual but it is nice to see the speed coming up

 with the knowledge of how much runway is still available. The runway

 goes over a hill which means you can't see the other end until close

 to 1/3 of the way along or 2/3 in the other direction. 
 Apparently the manufacturers haven't yet been able to come up with
an 
 acceleration checking system for takeoff. This was remarked on in a 
 recent news item on www.flightglobal.com [1] 
 on improvements in automatic flight control systems. 
 Mike 
 Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments
since 1978 
 phone Int'l + 61 746 355784 
 fax Int'l + 61 746 358796 
 cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784 
 email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com [2] 
 website: www.borgeltinstruments.com [3] 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Stemme produce a UAV based on the S6 motor glider

[anthony . smith]

 

The deciding factor is always the cost per payload or cost per
performance factor.  

The big question will be whether the S15 is able to undercut the
price of similar systems by using an already certified airframe. The
next question will be whether it can perform as well with its
'compromise' airframe (ie one already design to carry people) versus
an airframe designed only to carry avionics as a payload. With the
radar pod under the wing, I presume that it needs to circle in order
to give 360 degree coverage or does the pod hang low enough to see
under the fuselage? 

 Presumably they come from the same production line as the S6
initially. I wonder if this will make the S6 any cheaper?

 On Tue 16/06/09 3:30 PM , Simon Hackett si...@internode.com.au sent:
  I don't know, but there are certainly similarities - including the
use 
 of a Rotax 914 Turbo as the engine in the platform.

 But I'm no expert on them. Are you?

 Regards,
 Simon

 On 16/06/2009, at 1:04 PM, Mike Borgelt wrote:

  At 10:14 AM 16/06/2009, you wrote:
  For your interest, see attached pdf's.
 
  Here's a machine-translation of the German text in the first
  attachment; The S15 is a remote sensing variant of the Stemme S6 
  motor
  glider that was certified and entered series production some time

  ago.
 
  I think its pretty nifty to see a motor glider turned into a UAV!
 
  Regards,
  Simon
 
  So they're re-inventing the Predator A?
 
  Mike
  Borgelt Instruments - manufacturers of quality soaring instruments

  since 1978
  phone Int'l + 61 746 355784
  fax Int'l + 61 746 358796
  cellphone Int'l + 61 428 355784
 
  email: mborg...@borgeltinstruments.com [1]
  website: www.borgeltinstruments.com [2]
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[Aus-soaring] DI minimum age?

[Anthony Smith]

Hi all

 

My stupid question for the month (mostly because Redmond and myself have
been too busy to ask the authorities) to the collective:  

 

Is there a minimum age requirement for a DI rating?  If so, what is it?

 

Reply to: anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net 

 

Thanks

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Re: [Aus-soaring] DI minimum age?

[Anthony Smith]

Thanks to all.  The answer is 15 and a solo pilot.  Looks like a 14 year old
I know will be disappointed for a while longer.

 

 

From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Anthony
Smith
Sent: Friday, 8 May 2009 6:32 PM
To: 'Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.'
Subject: [Aus-soaring] DI minimum age?

 

Hi all

 

My stupid question for the month (mostly because Redmond and myself have
been too busy to ask the authorities) to the collective:  

 

Is there a minimum age requirement for a DI rating?  If so, what is it?

 

Reply to: anthony.sm...@adelaide.on.net 

 

Thanks

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[Aus-soaring] More: DG1000 dc pack

[anthony . smith]

 

 Back onto the original topic: 

A very quick perusal of the comments on the DG website illustrate
that they were quite concerned over the risk of electric shock. My
thoughts are: 

If the battery pack is in the fuselage you do not have to disconnect
/ connect high DC voltage leads when you de-rig and rig. Therefore no
risk of electric shock. 

Fuselage mounted supply also means greater reliability (because you
aren't messing around with the connections regularly) and less risk of
a bad connection over heating and causing a potential fire. 

I am sure DG considered the pro's and con's very seriously and it
would have been entertaining to be in the design meeting where it was
all hammered out

 On Thu 02/04/09 10:25 AM , Wayne Carter wa...@rite-weigh.com.au
sent:

 If Dg put their battery pack in the motor compartment, per the
latest
 newsletter, or anywhere in the fuselage as they reckon is safer (I
can see
 their point but would call it bunk, If I had a heavy landing I would
want
 that battery mass to be within the cart-wheeling wing some 50 metres
in
 front of me, not crushing my spine into the instrument panel)-
perhaps they
 could put it on a sliding beam?

 Just a few hundred millimeters would allow the mass to move the
overall CG
 for improvements to run/climb attitude, surely?
 Or is that a false theory?

 Input please!-enlighten me (hey there is a pun)

 Wayne

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[Aus-soaring] E-mail address for Peter Champness?

[Anthony Smith]

Hi all

Could Peter Champness kindly get in touch with me?

Alternatively, does someone have his current e-mail address (I only have an
old ozemail address for him)

Thanks 

Anthony 

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Teflon tape supplier required

[Anthony Smith]

It depends on what variety of Teflon tape you are after and for what
purpose.

I know I can get a wide variety of different tapes through Armstrong
Packaging at Port Adelaide.  I suspect any major packaging supplier could do
the same.

For a gliding specific product, eg the Teflon wear tape for under gap seals,
you may try the few gliding specific suppliers around eg Tom Gilbert and
others. 

-Original Message-
From: aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net
[mailto:aus-soaring-boun...@lists.internode.on.net] On Behalf Of Roger
Browne
Sent: Saturday, 24 January 2009 2:51 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Teflon tape supplier required

I  got a variety of tapes directly from 3M in the  past.   They were 
expensive and would not supply small quantities.   Worth giving them a try.

Roger Browne
 Hi

 I am trying to source self adhesive teflon tape.  I require tape 20 or
 25mm.  I would appreciate contact details.

 Cheers

 Paul

   

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[Aus-soaring] Bergy performance - was 180 degree turns

[anthony . smith]

 

  BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }
The figures for the Bergy in that spreadhseet are definitely wrong at
the low speed end, but probably more accurate at the high speed end. 

I haven't found where the data for that aircraft in the Polar10
spreadsheet came from but suspect that it may have been one of the
German Bergy 4's modified for self launch. 

The Boomerang polar is actually very close up to ~80 kts.  Given
that the Bergy 4 uses a similar Wortmann profile of the same vintage,
that isn't such a surprise.
 On Thu 11/09/08 3:23 PM , Texler, Michael
[EMAIL PROTECTED] sent:
 With regard to the Bergie figures, apologies to Anthony (the figures
were from POLAR10.xls). Thus lower sink rates would lead to lesser
height loss in the turn. 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] For a very rare reality...

[anthony . smith]

 

  BODY { font-family:Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;font-size:12px; }
The real catch here is that the simulator must accurately reflect the
performance and handling of the aircraft under the circumstances. 

A link back to Mike Borgelt's comment on the RAAF doing the double
asymetric training in large aircraft (particularly the P-3 Orion since
it regularly stooges around with #1 engine shut down).  The RAAF was
doing the  double asymetric training in aircraft as the simulators
they had for P-3, C-130 and B-707 did not accurately reflect what
happened in reality with stall and spin. 

On a side note, the US Navy very recently had a P-3 nearly spin in
from 6,000 ft.  #1 engine was shut down for loiter.  #2 started to
develop vibrations and was being shut down.  #1 was being restarted. 
Airspeed was well below minimum controllable. Pilot in command started
a left hand turn (into the dead engines) to get away from active
Canadian airspace.  Aircraft departed into left hand spin.  Pilot in
command applied full right rudder but did not retard throttle for #3
and #4 engines.  Aircraft recovered from spin after Flight Engineer
got #1 engine going and applied max power to #1.  Recovery height was
quoted as 75 ft. 

Pilot in command was a military QFI.
 On Thu 11/09/08 4:56 PM , Texler, Michael
[EMAIL PROTECTED] sent:
 Perhaps Tom Wilksch's idea of using a simulator should be given some
serious thought (airlines have been doing that for years!). 
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Oxygen Cylinder's on international flights

[anthony . smith]

 

The Mountain High cyclinders normally come with some form of US
Department of Transport (DoT) approval (mine did).  This should keep
you out of trouble with at least the US airlines.  If you have a copy
of the paper work with you, it will help with the other airlines if
you are queried. 

How do you plan to keep contaminants out of your cylinder when it is
open?  The alternate question is how do you plan to clean the cylinder
when you get back here?
 On Fri 05/09/08 9:13 AM , Robinson, Peter B (Information Systems)
[EMAIL PROTECTED] sent:
   I am buying an MH Oxygen system when I visit the States shortly
and I am trying to determine what grief I will get from the airlines
of having a Oxygen cylinder in my luggage.   The Valve will be remove
from the cylinder so it will just be an open Aluminium cylinder.  
Anyone had any experience ?   I will be flying on American Airlines,
Cathy Pacific and British Airways.   Regards Peter  
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Special Request - Work Experience

[Anthony Smith]

Dion

You could get her to talk to Tony Bernardo at Australian
Aerospace at RAAF Edinburgh.  

Aust Aero (Edn) may be able to offer her a week of work
experience. High school students typicall get to cover the
range of activities carried out here including: work on the
hangar floor with a P-3, logisitics, engineering (with one
of my blokes - probably Jonothan Icimsoy if you have bumped
into him in gliding circles), project management, finance
and business management.

It isn't the Air Force, but it is the next best thing as a
Defence Contractor (actually from my point of view it is
better than the Air force).

Talk to Tony Bernardo on 08 8256 3423 or
[EMAIL PROTECTED] 

Positions may be limited and we have already got two high
school students coming through that I know of.   Make sure
she has a look through http://www.ausaero.com.au/ first as a
bit of pre-knowledge about Aust Aero (particularly the
Edinburgh and Richmond sites with the P-3) will go a long
way.

Anthony



 G'day everyone!
 
 So as some of you may know, I work in an all girls school
 in Adelaide. A little while ago I had a student come up to
 me who was looking for work experience. She'd been to the
 career counsellor who in turn pointed her towards me
 saying I was a pilot and might have a few contacts.
 
 The student is 16 / 17 (in Year 11) and looking to become
 a pilot in the airforce when she graduates. For this years
 work experience, she wants to do the aero engineering side
 of things. I discussed this with her, and realised that
 she's a very determined girl. She seemed to know her stuff
 , already knowing a fair bit about aviation (apparently
 she's wanted to go into the airforce since she started
 school). When I mentioned the student to one of the
 teachers, she said that this particular student isn't
 scared doing the extra yard. As the teacher put it, she's
 not scared of a bit of hard work and doesn't mind getting
 dirty, willing to do what's needed to get the job done.
 From what I've seen of the student, I can strongly agree.
 In my opinion, I reckon she'd make a good helping hand for
 a week :)
 
 So I'm looking for someone in Adelaide (or surrounding
 areas I guess) who would be willing to take her on for one
 week for work experience. I must admint, I would prefer
 her not to have the hanger position of shitkicker, and
 actually have someone who would get her into the work (I
 believe she's good enough in all areas, and would do just
 as well as anyone else).
 
 If you can take her on, or know someone who might be
 willing, I would be very greatful if you would contact me.
 This would be very appreciated.
 
 Thanks,
 
 Dion Baker
 
 -- 
 timmo you know what i hate
 timmo errors that wont go away
 Guilty So you dislike children too
 
 
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[Aus-soaring] More: Special Request - Work Experience

[Anthony Smith]

Dion

Actually the website is pretty average.  You / she can have
a chat to me about Australian Aerospace if you like by
e-mail or at work on 08 8393 3319.

Anthony


 Dion
 
 You could get her to talk to Tony Bernardo at Australian
 Aerospace at RAAF Edinburgh.  
 
 Aust Aero (Edn) may be able to offer her a week of work
 experience. High school students typicall get to cover the
 range of activities carried out here including: work on
 the hangar floor with a P-3, logisitics, engineering (with
 one of my blokes - probably Jonothan Icimsoy if you have
 bumped into him in gliding circles), project management,
 finance and business management.
 
 It isn't the Air Force, but it is the next best thing as a
 Defence Contractor (actually from my point of view it is
 better than the Air force).
 
 Talk to Tony Bernardo on 08 8256 3423 or
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
 
 Positions may be limited and we have already got two high
 school students coming through that I know of.   Make sure
 she has a look through http://www.ausaero.com.au/ first as
 a bit of pre-knowledge about Aust Aero (particularly the
 Edinburgh and Richmond sites with the P-3) will go a long
 way.
 
 Anthony
 
 
 
  G'day everyone!
  
  So as some of you may know, I work in an all girls
  school in Adelaide. A little while ago I had a student
  come up to me who was looking for work experience. She'd
  been to the career counsellor who in turn pointed her
  towards me saying I was a pilot and might have a few
  contacts. 
  The student is 16 / 17 (in Year 11) and looking to
  become a pilot in the airforce when she graduates. For
  this years work experience, she wants to do the aero
  engineering side of things. I discussed this with her,
  and realised that she's a very determined girl. She
  seemed to know her stuff , already knowing a fair bit
  about aviation (apparently she's wanted to go into the
  airforce since she started school). When I mentioned the
  student to one of the teachers, she said that this
  particular student isn't scared doing the extra yard. As
  the teacher put it, she's not scared of a bit of hard
  work and doesn't mind getting dirty, willing to do
  what's needed to get the job done. From what I've seen
  of the student, I can strongly agree. In my opinion, I
  reckon she'd make a good helping hand for a week :)
  
  So I'm looking for someone in Adelaide (or surrounding
  areas I guess) who would be willing to take her on for
  one week for work experience. I must admint, I would
  prefer her not to have the hanger position of shitkicker
  , and actually have someone who would get her into the
  work (I believe she's good enough in all areas, and
  would do just as well as anyone else).
  
  If you can take her on, or know someone who might be
  willing, I would be very greatful if you would contact
  me. This would be very appreciated.
  
  Thanks,
  
  Dion Baker
  
  -- 
  timmo you know what i hate
  timmo errors that wont go away
  Guilty So you dislike children too
  
  
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Special Request - Work Experience

[Anthony Smith]

Hi Glenn
 
Regretably, as far as I know, the RAAF do not (or can not) arrange for
week long work experience as requested by Dion.  They do arrange for 1
day visits for potential ADFA recruits regularly though and these are
worth attending.  The Air Force Cadets also have regular camps and so
forth.
 
As a defence contractor, it is possible for us to arrange for work
experience on the base.  It ends up being pseudo defence work experience
as Aust Aero's work force at EDN is heavily embedded within the RAAF and
we work in a mixed environment of RAAFies and contractors working
shoulder to shoulder.  We even get the children of RAAF personnel doing
work experience through us as they can't get work experience through the
RAAF.  Sad but true.
 
You also have to remember that there is very little that a Year 11
student can actually do in that environment.  They have neither the
education to do the engineering / logisitics / finance nor the skills
background to do the hangar floor stuff.  It is an absolute challenge to
keep them from getting bored after the first hour. 
 
Certainly she should be already talking to Defence Recruiting, however
the only way that I presently know of achieving Dion's original request
is to give Tony Bernardo at Australian Aerospace a call.  He might also
try Tenix, Raytheon or British Aerospace as they have engineering
functions with access to EDN.
 
 
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Glenn
McLean
Sent: Wednesday, 28 May 2008 5:07 PM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] Special Request - Work Experience
 
Dion,
The RAAF spends an absolute fortune trying to recruit persons such as
this. I suggest you contact recruiting in adelaide and arrange for work
experience on the base. Usually several positions are made available for
potential ADFA joiners and Airforce Cadets.
Regards
Glenn Mclean 
- Original Message - 
From: D S Baker mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]  
To: Aus Soaring mailto:aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net  
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2008 3:59 PM
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Special Request - Work Experience
 
G'day everyone!
 
So as some of you may know, I work in an all girls school in Adelaide. A
little while ago I had a student come up to me who was looking for work
experience. She'd been to the career counsellor who in turn pointed her
towards me saying I was a pilot and might have a few contacts.
 
The student is 16 / 17 (in Year 11) and looking to become a pilot in the
airforce when she graduates. For this years work experience, she wants
to do the aero engineering side of things. I discussed this with her,
and realised that she's a very determined girl. She seemed to know her
stuff, already knowing a fair bit about aviation (apparently she's
wanted to go into the airforce since she started school). When I
mentioned the student to one of the teachers, she said that this
particular student isn't scared doing the extra yard. As the teacher put
it, she's not scared of a bit of hard work and doesn't mind getting
dirty, willing to do what's needed to get the job done. From what I've
seen of the student, I can strongly agree. In my opinion, I reckon she'd
make a good helping hand for a week :)
 
So I'm looking for someone in Adelaide (or surrounding areas I guess)
who would be willing to take her on for one week for work experience. I
must admint, I would prefer her not to have the hanger position of
shitkicker, and actually have someone who would get her into the work (I
believe she's good enough in all areas, and would do just as well as
anyone else).
 
If you can take her on, or know someone who might be willing, I would be
very greatful if you would contact me. This would be very appreciated.
 
Thanks,
 
Dion Baker

-- 
timmo you know what i hate
timmo errors that wont go away
Guilty So you dislike children too 

  _  

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Re: [Aus-soaring] Tow Planes

[Anthony Smith]

Anyone tried talking to European clubs where the fuel costs are (or
were) higher than here?



-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Robert
Dorning
Sent: Saturday, 3 May 2008 11:51 AM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Tow Planes

Dear all

I have only recently re-joined this list and hope I'm not raising a  
topic which has recently been done to death.

The Gliding Club of Victoria (GCV) operates four conventional high- 
hour GA-type tugs which have rising maintenance and surging avgas  
fuel costs. We've decided to explore a longer-term strategic solution  
to these issues to reduce launch costs for our members and head off  
prohibitive launch costs. Areas to be explored include use of Light  
Sport aircraft, re-engining our tugs with newer engines (eg diesel),  
conventional GA types, winching and greater use of motorgliders. Of  
particular interest is the useability of lighter newer aircraft for  
towing in hot  heavy conditions.

This can't be a problem that is unique to GCV so we're keen to find  
out what others have done and learnt and see how we might be able to  
move some general solutions along. What groups have already tackled  
these issues? What other ideas should we look at?

All ideas and comments would be welcome.

Robert


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[Aus-soaring] Thermalling a P-3 Orion

[Anthony Smith]

More likely that the heat from the exhausts will increase
the thermal strength.  

Note that a moderately loaded P-3 will be trying to thermal
at 160 kts or so and a turn radius of approx 490 m (about 10
times the turn radius of the Boomerang that Cath was
presumably flying).





 Yes the wake turbulence might even increase your climb
 rate
 
 luke
 
 - Original Message - 
 From: stuart smith [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in
 Australia.  aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
 Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 4:04 PM
 Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] F111 Bird Strike
 
 
 I figure that sharing a thermal with an Orion isn't a
 problem as long as  you
  are both centred in the thermal properly.  The Orion
  would be flying much larger circles than you.
 
 
  Stuart
  - Original Message - 
  From: Mark Newton [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in
  Australia. aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
  Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 9:07 AM
  Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] F111 Bird Strike
 
 
 
  On 22/04/2008, at 6:56 AM, Terry Neumann wrote:
  JR wrote:
 
  I shared a thermal at 8,300 feet with an air force
 Orion!!, that was  unexpected
  JR
 
 
  I hope you were both turning  in the same direction
 :-P 
  I shared a thermal at 13,000' with a horse-drawn
 zeppelin.  He wasn't  turning at all, just
 dolphin-soaring along a street. 
  'course, you tell kids these days and they don't
 believe you. 
- mark
 
 
 --
 --  I tried an internal modem,  
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]   but it hurt when I walked.
  Mark Newton  - Voice:
 +61-4-1620-2223 - Fax: +61-8-82231777 - 
 
 
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[Aus-soaring] Zig Zag tape

[Anthony Smith]

Hi all

I am looking to acquire two lengths of zig zag turbulator
tape for a work project.  Must be at least 700mm in length
each.  If anyone has a couple of suitable off-cuts that they
are willing to sell me, would they please contact me off
list?

regards

Anthony
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Swimmers getting helped by new surfaces

[Anthony Smith]

From what I know:

Some of the surface technology revolves around either grooves, riblets
or fibres to channel the boundary layer around a body in a particular
way (believe it or not there was even a trial of swimmers who shaved or
didn't shave their body hair - the result was that body hair could
improve your swimming speed providing it was within a particular length
range).  

Note for the humuorously inclined:  we could do a trial to see if body
hair length improves the performance of a glider pilot.

Back on topic - The technology is being used in America's Cup yachting
and other areas as well.

The big problem is that the surface is optimised for one particular
speed.

In a swimmer, the particular speed is a tad faster than what you would
go without the costume.

With gliding we come across a number of problems:

- we have two optimum speeds: climb and cruise.  We can't optimise for
one without detriment to the other. You could have a climb surface or a
cruise surface but not both.

- with air (rather than water) the grooves or riblets are very fine.
They would be easily damaged (giving the surface a buff and polish could
easily damage them) or easily clogged by bugs or dirt.

The technology is being trialled on older airliners (they have one
optimum speed: cruise at altitude) with 3M making adhesive plastic
sheets that you stick on in critical areas (appliqué I think they call
the technology).  The trials did show a big improvement in economy.  The
big problem was the technology and the effort to apply it, cost more
than the fuel that was saved.  With increasing fuel costs, who knows??

No Blaniks were riveted in the writing of this e-mail.

Anthony

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Michael
Derry
Sent: Wednesday, 26 March 2008 10:57 PM
To: aus-soaring@lists.internode.on.net
Subject: [Aus-soaring] Swimmers getting helped by new surfaces

In the news today there is much mention of swimmers using hi-tech suits
rather than swimming in brief costumes to improve their times.

Does anyone on this list know much about this subject and is there any
relevance from what these people have learned that can help us to
improve the performance of our gliders ?

Michael Derry
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Re: [Aus-soaring] Glider Trailers

[Anthony Smith]

Whilst I know the e-mail was tongue in cheek:  a pig or dog
trailer refers to the design of the trailer.

I think that a pig trailer has a central set of axles and
a drawbar that carries the balance load of the trailer. 

A dog trailer has a set of steerable wheels at the front
and fixed at the back and the drawbar carries no load, but
steers the front wheels.

A trucky or transport type would be able to say for sure... 

 


required minimum distance means: 
  (a) for a long vehicle in a road train area-200
  metres or, if another law of this jurisdiction
  provides another distance for the area, that
  distance, or (b) for a long vehicle in another
 area-60 metres or, if another law of this jurisdiction
  provides another distance for the area, that
 distance.
 
 Well, that's pretty clear!
 
  18. Conditions on exemption of certain pig trailers 
  
 
 Is a 'pig' trailer one that tows like an univited
 mother-in-law? 
 
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[Aus-soaring] Handicaps - was ASG29 handicaps

[Anthony Smith]

Well recent experience seems to show that handicaps can work quite well
under particular conditions.  

The Easter Regatta at Gawler featured a DG-1000 versus a Bergfalke 4 -
the only two seaters in the regatta.  

The Bergy 4 won on the Saturday on handicap by a small margin.  The
DG-1000 pipped the Bergy 4 for second place by an even smaller margin on
the Sunday on handicap.

Both days had low wind (the illustrious Bergfalke outlanded on the
Friday whilst valiantly trying to drive up wind on a windy day and the
Monday was a no-fly day).

There was some very expert task setting by Phil Ritchie (who confessed
that he didn't believe in handicaps - but was seen industriously dusting
down the DG-1000 prior to launch on the Sunday).  Both Saturday and
Sunday saw the Bergfalke and the plastic singles start and finish at
about the same times.

Sometimes these things work. sometimes they don't

 

-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Matthew
Gage
Sent: Wednesday, 19 March 2008 8:24 AM
To: Discussion of issues relating to Soaring in Australia.
Subject: Re: [Aus-soaring] -ASG29 handicaps

They tried something very similar in sailing in the late 80's early  
90's - it was a very expensive failure for very similar reasons.

They also tried multi-number handicaps for different conditions -  
again this failed as unless you get a uniform day, they are even worse  
than what we have now as 60%+ of pilots will object to the conditions  
chosen for scoring !!



On 18/03/2008, at 10:43 PM, Tim Shirley wrote:

 Gary,

 Whether you disagree with the second point or not, the fact is that  
 at the time it was one reason given by pilots for disliking the  
 system.  They didn't come to this opinion before they tried it, and  
 you might be the same :)

 Believe me, it was adequately trialled!  You should have been at the  
 pilots meetings...

 In regard to resurrecting it, I'm afraid that the maths was  
 horrendous.  Murray Evans held a PhD in applied maths, I think.   
 Also, using SeeYou scoring it would be difficult or perhaps  
 impossible to program, because SeeYou expects a fixed handicap.  So  
 unless someone (not me) is prepared to write a scoring system from  
 scratch, then I think we can consign the idea to history.  Scoring  
 isn't a walk in the park anyway, and layering this type of thing on  
 top of it will not exactly help.

 Potentially, there are simpler approaches that might work - for  
 example, some form of handicap adjustment based on a fixed factor  
 like Strong, Average or Weak conditions, with each glider having  
 effectively three different handicaps.  Somehow you have to apply a  
 different handicap on each day.  Still hard to program, but a bit  
 easier than all the curve fitting maths.

 I think it is easier to have a 2 week comp to even things out.

 Cheers

 Tim

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[Aus-soaring] Subaru and gliding

[Anthony Smith]

http://www.mysubaru.com.au/symmetry/adventure1.htm
 
 
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