date:20051010

Dearest Dr. Fananapazir,

I am most grateful for your deepeing into the subject of the Islamic 'Messiah'. These traditions that you share are very interesting indeed. May I ask, if there are any more in relation to the revolution brought by our beloved Imam and the (partial) abrogation of what was?

To my knowledge, much of the works compiled by Shi'ah scholars were not ascertaining the authenticity of what was sought, rather, aimed only to compile what they could find. This would place doubt on any tradition relating to 'such' a matter.

Your brother in Al-Abha,
Monder

Khazeh Fananapazir [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Dear Gilberto
As usual [if not more so] I am grateful for your comments below which I reproduce so that the good fragrance of our exchange may remain on these e-pages!
You wrote:

**We've been through a lot of these issues before. As a Bahai you almost NEED to believe that Islam is useless and old because otherwise there wouldn't have been a NEED for the Bab or Bahaullah. But there are ways to understand all of the above issues properly in a way so that the Shariah makes sense for modern times. A lot of people have an oversimplified notion of what the Shariah requires and how it should be implemented.

how can we deal with the law of DHIMMITUDE on the one hand and push
along interfaith in all its implications?

When people talk about "dhimmitude" they may be referring to a whole set of laws which non-Muslim people in Muslim lands were often subject to. The bulk of them were not required by the Quran and sunnah but were imposed by the rulers of that day.

In terms of what Islam actually teaches, Ahl al-Kitab (people of previous religions) are supposed to protected by the Muslim state where they would have the right to practice their religion with a great deal of autonomy. They would pay their taxes (jizya) which is a nominal amount of money. In different eras, Muslim rules made the jizya large or small or waived it all together.

or how can we take the laws relating to
killing someone because of "irtidaad" [=apostasy], simply because they
changed their faith etc etc

From what I've read, in the time of the prophet people weren't killed for simple apostasy. But it was for apostasy combined with acts of violence. In the context of an Islamic state with Muslim citizens then converting out of Islam and then committing acts of violence based on that rejection would be treason, which is still a capital offence in the civilized US.

Peace

Gilberto

Dear Gilberto

You always share such good stuff. One day soon by the grace of God, by the bounty and fuyuuz.aat [grace] of Bahaullah I shall even see your face so familiar I am with your electronic pages.

THERE IS ONE point that this servant will respond to.

You wrote:
***. As a Bahai you almost NEED to believe that Islam is useless and old because otherwise there wouldn't have been a NEED for the Bab or Bahaullah.***

The matter I would suggest is something more wonderful and more profound.

In the Holy Quran there is a verse about **NASKH** 2:106
And for whatever verse We abrogate [=nansakh] or cast into oblivion, We bring a better or the like of it; knowest thou not that God is powerful over everything?

Whatever verses we cancel [=nansakh], or cause thee to forget, we bring a better or its like. Knowest thou not that God hath power over all things?

Whatever verse we shall abrogate [=nansakh], or cause [thee] to forget, we will bring a better than it, or one like unto it. Dost thou not know that God is almighty?

*** Ma nansakh min ayatin aw nunsiha na/ti bikhayrin minha aw mithliha alam taAAlam anna Allaha AAala kulli shay-in qadeerun ***

As one can imagine throughout the early Islamic History when the Holy Imams [the descendants of the Imam Ali lived on earth right up to 260 AH] throughout this period people would ask the Imams what this refers to? In other words what would be abrogated?

The Holy Imams would give explicit answers that the Promised One would bring a new Book, a New Law

These amazingly enthralling hadiths are readable

http://al-shia.com/html/ara/books/behar/behar52/a14.html

In fact in this text mention is made of Aadhirbayjan as the locus where this happens. [the exalted Babs later Writings and Laws were all in Adhirbaayjan where He was also martyred]

This prediction that a new Book will come **Yubaayu un Naas alaa Kitaabin Jadeedin**
Is found in many sites

http://www.ejlasmahdi.com/ejlas2/site/library_f/mm09.htm

http://www.shiaweb.org/books/llah_llhaq_2/pa37.html

and many more.

In the New Testament too there are references to all things being renewed, refreshed

**
Act 3:19 when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Rev 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

The essentials are unchangeable [ the most frequent attribute of

RE: A couple of questions

Dearest Khazeh,

And lowly one accepted... Forever indebted.

Yahoo! Messenger
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calling worldwide with voicemail

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Re: A couple of questions

On 10/10/05, Monder M Zbaeda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear friends,

 I have sat here and watched this interesting discussion unfold. I am very
 pleased to see the respectful discourse. So many voices with one common
 goal, as the fields of flowers embrace each other in the splendour of the
 Sun. Colours coalesce and in that beauty is manifest.

 I wished to address this thought to our dear brother Gilberto. As mentioned
 by Dr. Fananapazir, you saw the beauty of Islam for what it was. Did you
 feel it to be more appropriate to this Age than the previous Dispensations
 of God?

Im not certain how to answer that question. Mainly because I see the
past religions differently from the typical Bahai perspective. When I
think about Judaism and Christianity, I would be very skeptical about
how accurately or  faithfully they have been transmitted. For example,
I don't believe that God would ever command anyone to commit genocide
and yet that's exactly what is found in the Old Testament. I would
also question whether Paul is a faithful representative of Jesus'
teachings or did he actually distort Christianity and push it in the
wrong direction.

So are the teachings of Islam more appropriate than the pure
unadulterated teachings of Moses or the pure unadulterated teachings
of Jesus? Well Im not sure we have the last 2 options available for
comparison.

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: A couple of questions

On 10/9/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Bahai believes that many of those commandments [of the Qur'an] are
 actually not valid, and unsuitable and inappropriate for the modern day,
 while claiming that thier own laws ARE suitable for the modern-day, then
 that would be a very clear example of Bahais claiming to be superior to
 Islam. You might be nice and polite about it. But I don't see how you can
 really get around it. 

Hajir:
 Gilberto, I think what you are getting hung up on [regarding superiority],
 is that you see Muhammad  the Qur'an separate and distinct from Baha'u'llah
 and the Aqdas (general definition refering to all of Baha'u'llah's
 writings).  If they were really distinctly separate from one another, then
 yes, I see the sense of superiority that one would not be able to get
 around.

Actually, I see the situation very differently. To me it makes sense
to just say, Muslims should be the best Muslims they can be. Bahais
should be the best Bahais they can be. And leave it to God to judge
people's deeds and intentions.


 Thus, one cannot concluding that the Aqdas is superior to the Qur'an ..
 **How can something be superior over itself**?

Still, the Aqdas is not the same as the Quran. They are different.
With different laws.

 The only reason that the
 Aqdas is more applicable to our age is because the Book of God was revealed
 in 600's AD (Qur'an), with an intermission of about 1000 years, and then
 continued in the 1800's AD (Bayan  Aqdas).

And if you say that then you don't really believe that the Quran and
the Aqdas are the same.



Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: A couple of questions

On 10/9/05, Tim Nolan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Hello Gilberto,

 I am no scholar, so I can't comment on the Qur'an or the sharia,
 but I hope you will not mind if  I contribute a layman's view.

I wouldn't claim to be a scholar either. I think this is all just
about contributing and exchanging thoughts as we can.

 Gilberto:
 As a Bahai you almost
 NEED to believe that Islam is useless and old because otherwise there
 wouldn't have been a NEED for the Bab or Bahaullah.

 Tim:
 Do you need to believe that Christianity is useless and old because
 otherwise there wouldn't have been any need for Muhammad?

Personally, no. I wouldn't say there was a *need* for Muhammad in that
sense. But God in his mercy chose to send him. But recently, some
Bahais *have* spoken in terms of a *need* for the Bab or Bahaullah.

Tim:
 In fact, a belief that Islam is useless would make it impossible for me
 to believe in Baha'u'llah.  How can a revelation from God ever
 be useless?  The fact that Islam is good and true does not
 mean that God has nothing more to teach us. The revelation
 of God is an endless, fathomless ocean, and no  Manifestation
 -including Baha'u'llah - has ever brought us everything God has to teach us.
 God's lessons are revealed gradually, step by step, because that
 is how humanity can grasp them.



Thanks, Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: Progressive Understanding of the Afterlife

Dear friends,

A wayfarer beseeches your wisdom.
In the Abrahamic faiths preceeding the Baha'i faith, the Afterlife (overlap with Day of Judgement),as a topic has been dealt with a great deal in the scriptures.Images of eutopia versus eternal chastisement depending on our 'wordly' deeds have been portrayed numerous times. To myunderstanding, according to the Baha'i faith, the next life isn't discussed much. The concepts of heaven and hell are metaphors fornearness and remoteness from God's grace and mercy, and not muchelse, apart from the fact that the soul still progresses towardsit's Lord in the 'land of Abha'.My question is why wasn't man ready to understand that these imagesportrayed in the scriptures were actually spiritual metaphorsto preventmankind from clinging on to these 'realities' literally. It would not be unreasonable to assume that theManifestations knew of the peoples' perceptions even though theymight have not intended!
their
utterances to be taken literally. Sowhy the change now? It seems quite paradoxal,i.e. that humanity has evolved but less of the subject matter is alluded to.

Monder
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Re: A couple of questions

Salaamun 'Alaikum wa Rahmatullah..

Dear Gilberto, your words manifest a thorough methodology which is always humbling to see. It is true that the Judeo-Christian tradition has been 'altered' by man, but I believe that the essence is still intact for those who are truly sincere to drink from the Kawthar.

I thus ask you dear brother, (explicitly) why you felt it was necessary for Allah to send us the Torah with His Holiness Moses, the Injil with the Beloved Christ and the Qur'an with Rasul Allah Muhammad al-Mustafa(S)?

Yours in Islam,
MonderGilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I"m not certain how to answer that question. Mainly because I see thepast religions differently from the typical Bahai perspective. When Ithink about Judaism and Christianity, I would be very skeptical abouthow accurately or faithfully they have been transmitted. For example,I don't believe that God would ever command anyone to commit genocideand yet that's exactly what is found in the Old Testament. I wouldalso question whether Paul is a faithful representative of Jesus'teachings or did he actually distort Christianity and push it in thewrong direction.So are the teachings of Islam more appropriate than the pureunadulterated teachings of Moses or the pure unadulterated teachingsof Jesus? Well I"m not sure we have the last 2 options available forcomparison.PeaceGilbertoThe information !
 contained
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Day of Judgement

Dearest friends,

I have asked this question many a times, but have yet to receive a satisfactory reply. I shall be brief..

Why is this Day of Judgement different to any other, with thecoming of the resepectiveMessengers of God?

Much love,
Monder M Zbaeda
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RE: Baha'i Liberation Theology ((long quote))

2005-10-10 Thread Mark A. Foster

Ian,

Sorry for the delay, but I wanted to make sure I had enough time to respond to 
your message.

At 03:53 PM 10/6/2005, you wrote:
I know *a lot* of Serbs and Croatians and they would be stunned by your 
statement that they did not live in a Communist state. So would Milvan Djilas 
(author of the explosive The New Class: An Analysis of the  Communist 
System [1957])His insider's book was especially focussed on Yugoslavia as a 
Communist state.

I didn't say that they did not live in a communist state. I suggested that 
there is no such *thing* as a communist state. There are only particular social 
constructions (nations) which may have certain observable similarities. Tito, 
through his political genius, allowed Yugoslavia functioned in both the first 
and second world. 

Both Tito's Yugoslavia and Sung's North Korea were run on strict 
Marxist/Communist dogma: class struggle, Party as vanguard, historical and 
dialectical materialism etc.

Where is the class struggle in Kim Il Sung's North Korea? And how did the 
so-called revolutions and class struggles in certain nations relate to Marx's 
views? You are, IMO, confusing labels with constructions.

But I did not say all totalitarian states are communist. China is was and to 
a large extent still totalitarian e.g. does not recognise the difference 
between public and private spheres of existence - which is why it persecutes 
people for private opinions. Religious beliefs and keeps close control of the 
internet.

That would, as I think would be defined by most political scientists and 
political sociologists, qualify it as authoritarian, not totalitarian.

But first they advocated dictatorship of the proletariat - a phase no 
Communist country has ever gotten beyond. The fact is there has never been a 
Communist state which has not also been totalitarian. They are correlates.

No. It is a stage they never reached. In order to have a dictatorship of the 
proletariat (socialism), the working class (not some class of intelligentsia 
which claims to represent them) needs to be in charge.

And, as I've said before, what person - then or now - with a lick of people 
smarts would ever take the vision of a stateless modern society seriously? 
That was just honey for flies.

That is ad hominem, i.e. attacking the messenger. There are a lot of very smart 
people who advocate various interpretations of Bakunin's and Marx's ideas of 
communism. 

People lived under a particular governments whose policies were guided by the 
work of Marx, Lenin, Stalin etc. Those ideas and works shared a certain 
number of similarities labelled 'Communism.' It could have labelled XYZ but 
the similarities remain.

The similarities, IMO, were either a result of oppression (the iron curtain) or 
were mostly linguistic (using the same word to describe North Korea and 
Yugoslavia or Lenin and Stalin).

What's important however  - and the key issue in this discussion -  is the 
fact that the Chinese leadership has recognised that a modern industrialized 
society cannot be built on Marxist/Communist principles.

I don't believe that a modern industrial society, on the foundations of 
corporate capitalism, should be built at *all*. Actually, I would like to see 
it almost completely dismantled (in spite of the suffering which would result). 
I have no desire to see future generations grow up under the ideologies 
supporting corporate and political greed.

Really? He was 'only' the leader of the world's most powerful Communist state 
for 18 years. That's 25% of the span of Communist rule in Russia. I would 
think his words and deeds *very* relevant.

Not to Trotsky. 

We have more than Trotsky's words - we have his actions and there is nothing 
in his actions to suggest he would have become anything than their heir of 
Lenin vis-à-vis his reliance on terror and force. Trotsky/Stalin? Six of one, 
half-a-dozen of the other.

Trotsky was not in charge, and it is entirely speculative to comment on the 
kind of government which might have developed if he ever did hold the reins of 
power. 

I see we could have a real debate about the nature of perspectivism.

I adopted what I call perspectivism when I was in graduate school. It is 
incorporated into my Ph.D. dissertation on pentecostalism. I have no idea how 
to debate the subject without getting back into the realism-nominalism 
discussion, which I am not anxious to do. 

Until about 10 years ago, my perspectivism was a bit essentialistic, i.e., 
different perspectives on real essences. However, functionally, my views were 
not so different from what they are right now.

BTW, this still doesn't make it clear why you dragged Trotsky into the 
conversation.

Because Trotksy, IMO, was among the finest fruits produced by the communist 
movement, and we were discussing communism and Marxism.

Not at all. I don't switch hats/perspectives/viewpoints and answer 
counter-arguments by saying, Well, I was speaking as a common sense realist 
not as a

RE: Baha'i Liberation Theology ((long quote))

2005-10-10 Thread Mark A. Foster

Ian,

At 06:59 PM 10/8/2005, you wrote:
Here's an interesting quote to consider amidst all this corporation bashing:
Social inequality is the inevitable outcome of the natural inequality of 
man. Human beings are different in ability and should, therefore, be 
different in their social and economic standing. Extremes of wealth and 
poverty should, however, be abolished...
-- Shoghi Effendi, Directives from the Guardian 20 

As a Baha'i, I have no interest in eliminating social inequality. The socialism 
in the Baha'i texts (e.g., houses of finance) does, however, appear to be 
structured to eliminate the sort of social inequity which is promoted by the 
corporatocracy.

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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RE: Day of Judgement

2005-10-10 Thread Susan Maneck

Why is this Day of Judgement different to any other, with the coming of the
resepective Messengers of God?

Dear Monder,

I'm not sure it is except in terms of the potency of this Revelation and
what it is meant to acheive. All Prophets of the past have foretold this
Day:

   It is evident that every age in which a Manifestation of God hath lived
is divinely ordained, and may, in a sense, be characterized as God's
appointed Day. This Day, however, is unique, and is to be distinguished from
those that have preceded it. The designation Seal of the Prophets fully
revealeth its high station. The Prophetic Cycle hath, verily, ended. The
Eternal Truth is now come. He hath lifted up the Ensign of Power, and is now
shedding upon the world the unclouded splendor of His Revelation. (Bahá'u'
lláh: Gleanings, p. 60)

This is the how Isaiah describes this Day:

He will judge between the nations and will settle disputes for many
peoples. They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into
pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they
train for war anymore.

No other Day has accomplished what this one is destined to do.

warmest, Susan



 
 
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RE: A couple of questions

2005-10-10 Thread Barbara Griffith

Hello all, just a short note from one who has listened from the back row to all the wisdom coming from those more learned than I...

I teach at William Sears Baha'i School, grades 3 and 4. One of my students said in class yesterday that he was "part Christian" What a beautiful segway to this issue. We talked about the Manifestations and that there is only one God. We talked about being the product of all religious teachings. So simple yet so profound these children of mine.

With love from a Baha'i who just celebrated her third birthday in the faith

BarbaraFirouz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Dear Tim,

I fully concur with you. I was raised a Shiah Muslim and when I decided to become a Bahai, I never thought I am abandoning Islam, or its Teaching. I thought and still think that I am a true Muslim even though the government of Iran considers me an apostate and a death penalty awaits me by my government. I just consider Bahai as the next chapter of the never ending Book of God.

Regards,
Firouz

I think it depends on who is defining the change of belief.

I was raised as a Christian (Roman Catholic). When I

embraced the Baha'i Faith, I did not reject the teachings of

Jesus, so in my view I am not an apostate from Christianity.

But I think some Christians would say I am an apostate.

Tim Nolan

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Power of Unity !







Baha'u'llah wrote:

"the whole of the human race can be illumined with the LIGHT OF UNITY, and the remembrance of His Name is able to set on fire the hearts of all men, and BURN AWAY THE VEILS that intervene between them and His glory."

"So powerful is the light of unity that it can illuminate the whole earth."

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Re: A couple of questions

"Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto,At 10:55 AM 10/9/2005, you wrote:I think if we want to say that the different religions of the world are "one", for me that would mean emphasizing the commonalities between them.To my understanding, the Baha'i view of the oneness of religion (i.e., "the religion of God") is based on the Covenant or Will of God. According to that Will or Covenant, God decides which teachings will continue from one Dispensation to the next (the eternal or spiritual teachings) and which ones are susceptible to change (the social teachings). Then, as God's creations, we humans are asked by God to accept His Will or Covenant.In other words, the center of the unity of religions is not, IMO, located in perceived similarities between certain teachings - even though similarities may, under some circumstances, be observed. It is situated in the dependence on God's Covenant or Will of *everything* which is revealed (both eternal and social). Throu!
gh that
dependence, an individual can demonstrate the unity of religions in her own life.

Dear Mark,

Thank you for a very succinct description of what it would have taken me a thousand words to say.

The apparent changes from dispensation to dispensation are because God WILLS the change, not because we are "more advanced now". Of course civilization and society are more advanced - its because God wills it and man cannot obstruct the unfoldment of God's will (try though he may).

Regards,
Scott

As human beings, we are endowed with freedom of choice, and we cannot shuffle off our responsibility upon the shoulders of God or nature. We must shoulder it ourselves. It is our responsibility. Arnold J. Toynbee

Re: A couple of questions

Dearest Hajir,

Although this was addressed to dear Dr. Fananpazir, I believe these are among the gemsthatyou werereferring to:

To every people (was sent) a messenger: when their messenger comes (before them), the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged. (10:47)

Verily We have sent thee in truth, as a bearer of glad tidings, and as a warner: and there never was a people, without a warner having lived among them (in the past). S. 35:24
You are only a warner, and to every people there is a guide (13:7)

And verily, We have sent among every Ummah a Messenger (proclaiming): "Worship Allah, and avoid all false deities.'' Then of them were some whom Allah guided and of them were some upon whom the straying was justified (16:36).

Much love,
MonderHajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto:
So are the teachings of Islam more appropriate than the pureunadulterated teachings of Moses or the pure unadulterated teachingsof Jesus? Well I"m not sure we have the last 2 options available forcomparison.Hi,

I see part of your dilemma. Shoghi Effendi does say that the Qur'an is wholly authentic. I believe Shoghi Effendi means that the early followers of Muhammad perfectly recorded God's Revelation to Muhammad,that there were no (1) unintentionalmisquotes and that (2)there were no intentional modifications to change major commandment(s) of God.

But the Bible is not perfectly authentic according to Shoghi Effendi and Baha'u'llah. In other words, there may have been (1) unintentional misquotes. But these in no way, shape, or form changed the overall message of Jesus. Baha'u'llah does state that nothing in the recorded Gospel was adulterated by (2) intentional modification.

So to my understanding, although there may have been minor changesto the actual words of Jesus (there aren't many quotes of Jesus in the Bibleanyway), nothing was intentionally modified to change the foundation or overall message of God through the revelation of Jesus.

Therefore, I would say YES: today, 2000 years after the revelation of Jesus and 1000 years after the revelation of Muhammad, itmay bepossible to compare the revelation of Jesus to the revelation of Muhammad to determine the relative applicability of the Words of God to our day. If the revelation of Jesus and the revelation of Muhammad were equally applicable to our day, then the only explanation for the revelation of Muhammad would be that God simply Willed it. But I think there is more to it than that. The message contained in the revelation of Muhammad was TARGETED (God the Greatest Marketer) to an audience that lived some thousand years after the coming of Jesus.

In my view, when the writings state that the Word of God is eternal, they refer to the essence of the Word which is One with God. Outward _expression_ of the Word materializes in our world, in our language, using our terms. The only way we understand the Word of God is by understanding the analogies,the symbols, and the message they convey. Mark Foster Ian Kluge can add a lot here.

So, since human beings obviously grow and change over time, how can we apply the same message to the people for all time?

Does it really matter if the change was as a result of unintentional misquotes of the Messenger of God, or as a result of the changes in the condition and perception and capability of humankind? Afterall, the underlying message of Jesus did get conveyedcorrectlyto the people in such a way that it actually did guide the people from 60AD or so to about 600 AD. How can one believe that God left man to himself during that duration? Khazeh, isn't there a quote in the Qur'an somewhere that states that God always guides his people?

Regards,
Hajir

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Re: A couple of questions

On 10/10/05, Monder M Zbaeda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Salaamun 'Alaikum wa Rahmatullah..


Wa alaikum salaam wa rahamatullah,

 Dear Gilberto, your words manifest a thorough methodology which is always 
 humbling to see.

Thanks. I appreciate that.

 It is true that the Judeo-Christian tradition has been
 'altered' by man, but I believe that the essence is still  intact for those 
 who are truly sincere to drink from the  Kawthar.

Ok. I think I would agree with this but my way of making sense of that
statement seems different from what alot of Bahais seem to be saying
(from my perspective).

If we can agree that the essence (the really important part) is still
intact in the old religions then there isn't a need for the new one.

 I thus ask you dear brother, (explicitly) why you felt it was necessary for
 Allah to send us the Torah with His Holiness Moses, the Injil with the
 Beloved Christ and the Qur'an with Rasul Allah Muhammad al-Mustafa(S)?

God in his mercy chose to remind mankind of the message, but in some
sense the message has already been delivered. I wouldn't say it was
necessary. Even in the time of the prophet Muhammad there were
Hanifs, spiritual people who had rejected the idolatry around them and
were worshiping the one true God. Even in the time of Jesus, there
were spiritual communities of Jews who had a pretty deep understanding
of the law and had a healthy attitude towards the law.

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: A couple of questions

On 10/10/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Gilberto:  Is Saiedi saying that Islamic laws are still valid in the
 modern-day? 

 Hi,

 I think I see what you are saying.  No, Saiedi is not saying that the
 Islamic laws are still valid for the modern-day.  So from this framework,
 the Baha'i Framework, the concept of Progressive Revelation as described by
 Saiedi is non-contradictory.

But that's not the contradiction. If a Bahai is saying that the laws
of Islam are not applicable and are out of date then it is on some
level disparaging to what Muslims believe. But Bahais seldom
acknowledge the fact that it is disparaging. That's all I'm saying.

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: A couple of questions

So from a Bahai perspective one can believe that there are accidental misquotes and modifications in the contemporary Quran?
No, based on my understanding, there are no accidental misquotes or accidental modifications in the contemporary Qur'an (unlike the contemporary Bible). Yet, these accidents in the Bible did not withhold, or diminish, or affectthe guidance of God to the people from the beginning of the dispensation of Jesus until the revelation of Muhammad (Qur'an). Yeah, I see what you are saying. But personally I wouldn't be as generous. I would say mainstream Christianity represents a significant departure from Jesus' original teaching. And I think Paul was largely responsible for the shift.
Please educate me, what exactly do you mean by saying that St. Paul was largely responsible for the shift from the original teachings in the Gospel?

Do you mean that St. Paul was responsible for modifying the content of the contemporary Gospel (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John)?

Or do you mean that St. Paul was responsible for incorrect interpretation of the contemporary Gospel?Thanks,
Hajir
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Re: A couple of questions

If a Bahai is saying that the laws of Islam are not applicable and are out of date then it is on some level disparaging to what Muslims believe. But Bahais seldomacknowledge the fact that it is disparaging. That's all I'm saying.

Okay, even though I have not thought this through yet, I will take your word for it. So if the Baha'i belief in the inapplicability of the Islam lawto our day is disparaging, why isn't the Muslim belief that the true Gospel is lost disparaging as well (since Christians believe in the validity of their Gospel)?

Thanks,
Hajir
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RE: A couple of questions

2005-10-10 Thread Max Jasper

Title: Message







Meaning of Perverting the Holy 
Text
This is one of the instances that have been referred 
to. Verily by "perverting" the text 
is not meant that which these foolish and abject souls have fancied, even as 
some maintain that Jewish and Christian divines have effaced from the Book such 
verses as extol and magnify the countenance of Muhammad, and instead thereof 
have inserted the contrary. How utterly vain and false are these words! Can a 
man who believeth in a book, and deemeth it to be inspired by God, mutilate it? 
Moreover, the Pentateuch had been spread over the surface of the earth, and was 
not confined to Mecca and Medina, so that they could privily corrupt and pervert 
its text. Nay, rather, by corruption of the text is meant that in which all 
Muslim divines are engaged today, that is the interpretation of God's holy Book 
in accordance with their idle imaginings and vain desires. And as the Jews, in 
the time of Muhammad, interpreted those verses of the Pentateuch, that referred 
to His Manifestation,after their own fancy, and refused to be satisfied 
with His holy utterance, the charge of "perverting" the text was therefore pronounced 
against them. Likewise, it is clear, how in this day, the people of the Qur'n 
have perverted the text of God's holy Book, concerning the signs of the expected 
Manifestation, and interpreted it according to their inclination and 
desires.

(Baha'u'llah, The 
Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 86)

Our purpose in relating these things 
is to warn you that were they to maintain that those verses wherein the signs 
referred to in the Gospel are mentioned have been perverted, were they to reject 
them, and cling instead to other verses and traditions, you should know that 
their words were utter falsehood and sheer calumny. Yea "corruption" of the text, in the sense We have 
referred to, hath been actually effected in particular instances. A few of these 
We have mentioned, that it may become manifest to every discerning observer that 
unto a few untutored holy Men hath been given the mastery of human learning, so 
that the malevolentopposer may cease to contend that a certain verse 
doth indicate "corruption" of the 
text, and insinuate that We, through lack of knowledge, have made mention of 
such things. Moreover, most of the verses that indicate "corruption" of the text 
have been revealed with reference to the Jewish people, were ye to explore the 
isles of Qur'nic Revelation.

(Baha'u'llah, The 
Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 88)









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Re: A couple of questions

Gilberto: But that's not the contradiction. If a Bahai is saying that the lawsof Islam are not applicable and are out of date then it is on somelevel disparaging to what Muslims believe. But Bahais seldomacknowledge the fact that it is disparaging. That's all I'm saying.

Even some of the writings of Baha'u'llah are not applicable to our age, so we apply this same principle to ourselves. To me, thisproves that the belief in Progressive Revelation is not meant to disparage any community:

For example, the command to shave one's head after pilgrimage, in His Tablet of the Hajj. Baha'u'llah modified this rule in the Kitab-i-Aqdas by stating that one should never shave his head.

Even the command not to shave one's head itself is not applicable to our age, because the Universal House of Justice has yet to activate it.
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Re: A couple of questions

On 10/10/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  If a Bahai is saying that the laws of Islam are not applicable and are out
 of date then it is on some level disparaging to what Muslims believe. But
 Bahais seldom
 acknowledge the fact that it is disparaging. That's all I'm saying.

 Okay, even though I have not thought this through yet, I will take your word
 for it.  So if the Baha'i belief in the inapplicability of the Islam law to
 our day is disparaging, why isn't the Muslim belief that the true Gospel is
 lost disparaging as well (since Christians believe in the validity of their
 Gospel)?

On some level, I would have to admit that my beliefs about the Bible
*are* disparaging. I'm very critical of certain parts of the Bible.
There are certain teachings which I think are actually immoral. Not
just for modern-times but pretty much for all times.

In spite of that, I think Christians can be good people. I think
Christians can be saved without necessarily becoming Muslim. I
think God judges the quality of a persons heart and what their
intentions are, and judges what opportunities they had. I would be
open about disagreeing with certain Christian doctrines, but I don't
think that means I look down on Christians or say they have a less
developed religion than I do.

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: A couple of questions

On 10/10/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto:
  Yeah, I see what you are saying. But personally I wouldn't be as
  generous. I would say mainstream Christianity represents a significant
  departure from Jesus' original teaching. And I think Paul was largely
  responsible for the shift.


 Please educate me, what exactly do you mean by saying that St. Paul was
 largely responsible for the shift from the original teachings in the Gospel?

When Jesus came he had many followers. And if you look at the history
of early Christianity, there were many different groups with radically
different beliefs and understandings of who Jesus was. Mainstream
Christianity comes out of one branch, but even in the Bible itself you
can read about how Paul was the leader of one faction, but there were
others who disagreed with him.

What I would suggest is that one of the non-Pauline branches is a more
accurate reflection of what Jesus actually taught.


Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-10 Thread Mark A. Foster

Hi, Scott,

At 10:58 AM 10/10/2005, you wrote:
The apparent changes from dispensation to dispensation are because God WILLS 
the change, not because we are more advanced now. Of course civilization 
and society are more advanced - its because God wills it and man cannot 
obstruct the unfoldment of God's will (try though he may). 

Yes. However, I would suggest that man *can* obstruct the unfoldment of God's 
Will (as with the kings and rulers in the 19th century), but only if God wills 
it. ;-)

Via moderna, Mark A. Foster . http://markfoster.net
... [a] word is ... a universal. - William of Ockham
Structurization Tech: http://tech.structurization.com 



 
 
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Re: A couple of questions

On 10/10/05, Hajir Moghaddam [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto:
  From my perspective, technological advancement and changese in the
  social order don't really change human nature or the human condition.
  So the basic parameters of morality and behavior are pretty stable
  over large sweeps of history.

Hajir:
 So in this sense, you are right, the nature and general condition of man has
 not changed, for without the existence of human beings who is capable of
 recognizing His Lord, God would not be the Best Creator.

Ok.

Hajir:
 *(2) Morality and Behavior
 Yet, I am surprise you haven't acknowledge the fact that in the last 200 
 years, humanity has progressed more than the combination of all previous
 history?  We're on the moon, have studied the depths of our oceans, have 
 mapped the human genome, have created computer with more memory and faster
 processing than the human brain, have clone living animals, have discovered
 planets circling distant stars, to name a few.

Gilberto:
That's all true, but I don't think that changes basic morality. The
fact that man walked on the moon doesn't make it ok to steal. The fact
that we can clone animals, doesn't make lying ok. I think changes in
technology make our life more complicated. And what that means is that
there are more ways to manifest our virtues and our vices. But the
basic ethical core is the same. So instead of stealing your neighbor's
primitive cutting tool you can steal their IPod. But the moral
principle is the same.

 Don't you think these discoveries have an impact on human morality and
 behavior?

How so?

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: A couple of questions

Sure, I understand that the Bahai belief is that the Bible is
substantially intact. But I think that if you just look at the
question directly, and just look at what research has been done on the
Bible and don't just appeal to some other scripture, its pretty clear
that significant changes have been made.

Almost all Biblical scholars, for instance, accept what is called the
documentary hypothesis. This is the idea that the Penteteuch (the
first five books of the Bible, traditionally attributed to Moses) were
actually written several centuries after Moses and had multiple
authors.

Or if you study the actual variations which exist in the text, it is
also pretty clear. Protestants and Catholics and Ethiopian ORthodox
Christians all have different Bibles. Either Some of them are too big,
or some of them are too small, or both. But at least 2 of them must
have been changed from the original.

And there are other arguments which could be made along other lines as well.

Peace

Gilberto

On 10/10/05, Max Jasper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


 Meaning of Perverting the Holy Text

 This is one of the instances that have been referred to. Verily by
 perverting the text is not meant that which these foolish and abject souls
 have fancied, even as some maintain that Jewish and Christian divines have
 effaced from the Book such verses as extol and magnify the countenance of
 Muhammad, and instead thereof have inserted the contrary. How utterly vain
 and false are these words! Can a man who believeth in a book, and deemeth it
 to be inspired by God, mutilate it? Moreover, the Pentateuch had been spread
 over the surface of the earth, and was not confined to Mecca and Medina, so
 that they could privily corrupt and pervert its text. Nay, rather, by
 corruption of the text is meant that in which all Muslim divines are engaged
 today, that is the interpretation of God's holy Book in accordance with
 their idle imaginings and vain desires. And as the Jews, in the time of
 Muhammad, interpreted those verses of the Pentateuch, that referred to His
 Manifestation, after their own fancy, and refused to be satisfied with His
 holy utterance, the charge of perverting the text was therefore pronounced
 against them. Likewise, it is clear, how in this day, the people of the
 Qur'án have perverted the text of God's holy Book, concerning the signs of
 the expected Manifestation, and interpreted it according to their
 inclination and desires.

  (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 86)

 Our purpose in relating these things is to warn you that were they to
 maintain that those verses wherein the signs referred to in the Gospel are
 mentioned have been perverted, were they to reject them, and cling instead
 to other verses and traditions, you should know that their words were utter
 falsehood and sheer calumny. Yea corruption of the text, in the sense We
 have referred to, hath been actually effected in particular instances. A few
 of these We have mentioned, that it may become manifest to every discerning
 observer that unto a few untutored holy Men hath been given the mastery of
 human learning, so that the malevolent  opposer may cease to contend that a
 certain verse doth indicate corruption of the text, and insinuate that We,
 through lack of knowledge, have made mention of such things. Moreover, most
 of the verses that indicate corruption of the text have been revealed with
 reference to the Jewish people, were ye to explore the isles of Qur'ánic
 Revelation.

  (Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 88)




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RE: A couple of questions

Gilberto:

To me it makes sense to just say, Muslims should be the
best Muslims they can be. Bahais should be the best Bahais they can be. And
leave it to God to judge people's deeds and intentions.

But how one defines good or best? I am
sure those Muslims who have called for Jihad against West and USA consider
themselves as the best Muslim. They may think that they are following the laws
of Islam, i.e. Jihad to the best of their abilities. Some Islamic countries
consider killing the apostate, stoning women to death for acts of adultery, chopping
ones hand for robbery, or beheading a person for some crime is following
Islam to its best of Shariah. Are these considered best in todays world?

Regards,

Firouz

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Re: A couple of questions

2005-10-10 Thread Tim Nolan

Hi Gilberto,

Personally, no. I wouldn't say there was a *need* for Muhammad in thatsense. But God in his mercy chose to send him. But recently, someBahais *have* spoken in terms of a *need* for the Bab or Bahaullah.

As I see it, the fact that God sent the Bab and Baha'u'llah indicates
that there was a need for them, in God's eyes. This does not mean that
Islam had become invalid or useless. But humanity was ready for more of
God's revelation. No religion is final, including Islam, including
the Baha'i Faith. Just my opinion.

Tim Nolan
Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free.

RE: A couple of questions

Gilberto:

Yeah, I see what you are saying. But personally I wouldn't be as
generous. I would say mainstream Christianity represents a significant
departure from Jesus' original teaching. And I think Paul was largely
responsible for the shift.

At the same time, don't you think the mainstream Muslims represent a
significant departure from Prophet Muhammad Teachings? Please carefully
observe majority of Muslims in Muslim countries and the fatwas of Islamic
scholars during last century or so.

In another email you quoted:
I wouldn't say it was necessary. Even in the time of the prophet Muhammad
there were Hanifs, spiritual people who had rejected the idolatry around
them and were worshiping the one true God. Even in the time of Jesus, there
were spiritual communities of Jews who had a pretty deep understanding of
the law and had a healthy attitude towards the law.

I agree here with you and even at the time of Baha'u'llah there were
spiritual Muslims and Christians. Even today there are some spiritual people
among the followers of all the past religions. But we are talking about
mainstream as you mentioned.

Regards,
Firouz







 
 
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Re: A couple of questions

"Mark A. Foster" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Hi, Scott,At 10:58 AM 10/10/2005, you wrote:The apparent changes from dispensation to dispensation are because God WILLS the change, not because we are "more advanced now". Of course civilization and society are more advanced - its because God wills it and man cannot obstruct the unfoldment of God's will (try though he may). Yes. However, I would suggest that man *can* obstruct the unfoldment of God's Will (as with the kings and rulers in the 19th century), but only if God wills it. ;-)

Mark,

You're a rogue. You know that is the kind of statement that drives argumentative agnostics absolutely bonkers don't you?

Regards,
Scott

Re: A couple of questions

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Gilberto:That's all true, but I don't think that changes basic morality. Thefact that man walked on the moon doesn't make it ok to steal. The factthat we can clone animals, doesn't make lying ok. I think changes intechnology make our life more complicated. And what that means is thatthere are more ways to manifest our virtues and our vices. But thebasic ethical core is the same. So instead of stealing your neighbor'sprimitive cutting tool you can steal their IPod. But the moralprinciple is the same.

Basic morality is essentially a spiritual truth, isn't it? What about laws governing how human rights should be protected? How many wives a man might have? Laws that guide us in making out our wills? Laws that allow us to take international disputes to an arbitrator rather than commit war? The outlawing of slavery? The Qur'an and the Bible permit it you know.

Social laws govern all kinds of things about how humans interact other than violence and theft, you know. How does the Qur'an suggest we treat intellectual property? For a single instance of how man's requirements have changed over the centuries.

Regards,
Scott

Re: A couple of questions

On 10/10/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


Scott writes:
 Basic morality is essentially a spiritual truth, isn't it? What about laws
 governing how human rights should be protected?

I would say that if a human right is worthy of the name, then it is
something which all human beings should have by nature, for the entire
history of humanity. It's not something which depends on technology.

 How many wives a man might
 have?

I would suggest to you that even in the year 2005 there are places in
the developing world where for one reason or another there is a
shortage men and the government doesn't adequately provide for the
needs of poor women and children and that a reasonable way to arrange
society is for men who are wealthy enough to take multiple wives.


 Laws that allow us to take
 international disputes to an arbitrator rather than commit war?

Why would those rules change?

 The
 outlawing of slavery? The Qur'an and the  Bible permit it you know.

Why is slavery wrong? I thought Shoghi Effendi said something about
slavery violating human dignity. But if that's the case then slavery
has ALWAYS been wrong. No?


Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: A couple of questions

On 10/10/05, Firouz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Gilberto:
  To me it makes sense to just say, Muslims should be the best Muslims they
 can be. Bahais should be the best Bahais they can be. And leave it to God to
 judge people's deeds and intentions.

Firouz:
 But how one defines good or best?

As an individual you follow your conscience, informed and guided by
whatever scripture or religious/spiritual/moral path you happen to
follow.

 I am sure those Muslims who have called
 for Jihad against West and USA consider themselves as the best Muslim.

I'm not sure what your point is. Bahais who hate Muslims also think
they are good Bahais too. We all have to engage in a process of
self-criticism. But that's an individual process.

Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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Re: A couple of questions

Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On 10/10/05, Scott Saylors <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote: Gilberto Simpson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>wrote:Scott writes: Basic morality is essentially a spiritual truth, isn't it? What about laws governing how human rights should be protected?I would say that if a "human right" is worthy of the name, then it issomething which all human beings should have by nature, for the entirehistory of humanity. It's not something which depends on technology.
---

Human rights are defined by the Revelations, and the Revealers refine the law.
-- How many wives a man might have?I would suggest to you that even in the year 2005 there are places inthe developing world where for one reason or another there is ashortage men and the government doesn't adequately provide for theneeds of poor women and children and that a reasonable way to arrangesociety is for men who are wealthy enough to take multiple wives.
--

Some societies had a shortage of women and polyandry was practiced there - tibet and Bhutan for instance.
-- Laws that allow us to take international disputes to an arbitrator rather than commit war?Why would those rules change?
--

Because weapons are so destructive today that ALL men and women everywhere are threatened by war between two states. The outlawing of slavery? The Qur'an and the Bible permit it you know.Why is slavery wrong? I thought Shoghi Effendi said something aboutslavery violating human dignity. But if that's the case then slaveryhas ALWAYS been wrong. No?
-

Not according to the Bible or the Qur'an it wasn't. The sacred texts regulated slavery to some extent, but did not ban it. It was not until Baha`u'llah made a specific decree that slavery was banned by religion.

Regards,
Scott

Re: A couple of questions

On 10/11/05, Scott Saylors [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Gilberto Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 On 10/10/05, Scott Saylors wrote:

  Gilberto Simpson wrote:

 Scott writes:
  Basic morality is essentially a spiritual truth, isn't it? What about laws
  governing how human rights should be protected?

Gilberto:
 I would say that if a human right is worthy of the name, then it is
 something which all human beings should have by nature, for the entire
 history of humanity. It's not something which depends on technology.

 ---

Scott:
 Human rights are defined by the Revelations, and the Revealers refine the
 law.


Gilberto:
I think I see what you are saying. I would just disagree.
 --

Scott:
  How many wives a man might
  have?

Gilberto:
 I would suggest to you that even in the year 2005 there are places in
 the developing world where for one reason or another there is a
 shortage men and the government doesn't adequately provide for the
 needs of poor women and children and that a reasonable way to arrange
 society is for men who are wealthy enough to take multiple wives.

Scott:
 Some societies had a shortage of women and polyandry was practiced there -
 tibet and Bhutan for instance.

Gilberto:
So are you arguing in favor of polyandry?

Gilberto:
One reason why polyandry and polygamy are different from one another
is that under polyandry paternity is much much harder to determine.

So the two aren't just equivalent.

Scott:

  Laws that allow us to take
  international disputes to an arbitrator rather than commit war?

Gilberto:
 Why would those rules change?

 --
 Because weapons are so destructive today that ALL men and women everywhere
 are threatened by war between two states.


Gilberto:
Maybe you need to be specific about which rules change. I would just
say that the general principles are the same in either case.



Scott:
  The
  outlawing of slavery? The Qur'an and the  Bible permit it you know.

Gilberto:
 Why is slavery wrong? I thought Shoghi Effendi said something about
 slavery violating human dignity. But if that's the case then slavery
 has ALWAYS been wrong. No?


Scott:
 Not according to the Bible or the Qur'an it wasn't. The sacred texts
 regulated slavery to some extent, but did not ban it. It was not until
 Baha`u'llah made a specific decree that slavery was banned by religion.


Gilberto:
I think you are oversimplifying the situation. In both the Quran and
the Bible, slavery is seen as problematic and freeing slaves is
commendable.

[90.12] And what will make you comprehend what the uphill road is?
[90.13] (It is) the setting free of a slave,
[90.14] Or the giving of food in a day of hunger
[90.15] To an orphan, having relationship,
[90.16] Or to the poor man lying in the dust.
[90.17] Then he is of those who believe and charge one another to show
patience, and charge one another to show compassion.
[90.18] These are the people of the right hand.

And there are other similar passages in the Quran as well. Already
there is the value which says that freedom is better than slavery and
it is a good thing to try to free slaves.



Peace

Gilberto


 
 
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RE: A couple of questions

Gilberto:
I'm not sure what your point is. Bahais who hate Muslims also think
they are good Bahais too. We all have to engage in a process of
self-criticism. But that's an individual process.

I don't think Baha'is hate Muslims or anyone else as hatred is against the
Teachings of Baha'u'llah. But many of the laws that Muslims follow today,
i.e. Jihad is part of the Teaching of Islam followed by some Muslims,
killing of apostates are done today in some Muslim countries. In a few
Muslim countries women are still stoned to death for adultery.

Here is what Baha'u'llah says about hatred:

Religious fanaticism and hatred are a world-devouring fire, whose violence
none can quench.

O people of Justice! Be as brilliant as the light, and as splendid as the
fire that blazed in the Burning Bush. The brightness of the fire of your
love will no doubt fuse and unify the contending peoples and kindreds of the
earth, whilst the fierceness of the flame of enmity and hatred cannot but
result in strife and ruin. We beseech God that He may shield His creatures
from the evil designs of His enemies. He verily hath power over all things.

There are so many other quotes of Abdu'l-Baha against hatred. So please just
do not assume that Baha'is hate Muslims.

Regards,
Firouz





 
 
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RE: A couple of questions

2005-10-10 Thread Khazeh Fananapazir

On 10/10/05, Firouz [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:Firouz: But how one defines good or best?As an
individual you follow your conscience, informed and guided by whatever scripture
or religious/spiritual/moral path you happen to follow. I am sure
those Muslims who have called for Jihad against West and USA consider
themselves as the best Muslim.I'm not sure what your point
is. Bahais who hate Muslims also think they are good Bahais too. We all have to
engage in a process of self-criticism. But that's an individual
process.PeaceGilberto

Dear Firuz and Gilberto, Scott, Hajir, Susan, Jasper, Monder,
and others

Dear Friends We should be careful lest we keep on iterating,
repeating, rehearsing the same ground over and over.
Gilberto dear Brother I would say that the statement "Bahais
hating Moslems" is not accurate. Bahais do not hate Moslems. Astaghfirullah. God
forbid. Bahais hating Moslems would be a contradiction in terms.
Gilberto dear Brother. Bahais are to love all humankind. [and in
relation to the "Specificity of Judgement" in this Day ie Monder Zbaedi's
question] this Passage says it all
**In every dispensation, there hath been
the commandment of fellowship and love, but it was a commandment limited to the
community of those in mutual agreement, not to the dissident foe. In this wondrous age, however, praised be God, the commandments of God
are not delimited, not restricted to any one group of people, rather
have all the friends been commanded to show forth fellowship and love,
consideration and generosity and loving-kindness to every community on
earth. Now must the lovers of God arise to carry out these instructions of
His: let them be kindly fathers to the children of the human race, and
compassionate brothers to the youth, and self-denying offspring to those bent
with years. The meaning of this is
that ye must show forth tenderness and love to every human being, even to your
enemies, and welcome them all with unalloyed friendship, good cheer, and
loving-kindness. When ye meet with cruelty and persecution at another's hands,
keep faith with him; when malevolence is directed your way, respond with a
friendly heart. To the spears and arrows rained upon you,
expose your breasts for a target mirror-bright; and in return for curses, taunts
and wounding words, show forth abounding love. Thus will all peoples
witness the power of the Most Great Name, and every nation acknowledge the might
of the Ancient Beauty, and see how He hath toppled down the walls of discord,
and how surely He hath guided all the peoples of the earth to oneness; how He
hath lit man's world, and made this earth of dust to send forth streams of
light. (`Abdu'l-Baha: Selections ... `Abdu'l-Baha,
Pages: 20-21)
This Passage is our motto and modus
vivendi.

But Gilberto you are
right that on occasion in all these exchanges sometimes something harsh is said
and repartee'd but InShaa Allah this is never the
norm.
We should remind
ourselves every hour of the above holy, precious, soul-enthralling Utterance
from someone Who is the Mainstay of the Oneness of Humanity and the Centre of
God's Covenant.

'Abdu'l-Baha also
said.
**. The more love is
expressed among mankind and the stronger the power of unity, the greater will be
this reflection and revelation, for the greatest bestowal of God is love.
Love is the source of all the bestowals of God. Until love takes
possession of the heart, no other divine bounty can be revealed in it.
(`Abdu'l-Baha: Promulgation of Universal Peace*, Page:
15)
so the more love i
express towards you Gilberto and the Moslems and Christians and Hindus and
agnostics and and the stronger and greater the descent of God's
bestowals.

The only other point is that in the
Holy Qur'an there is reference to God HimSelf revealing the Qur'an and God
HimSelf revealing subsequently [THUMMA means after a lapse of time] Its
Bayaan.

This Verse i am about to mention is
very very precious. A great Man Suhrawardi discovered its thought and suggested
this verse refers to a subsequent Revelation and sadly he was
killed.
http://theosophy.org/tlodocs/teachers/Suhrawardi.htm
Shihab al-Din Yahya ibn Habash ibn Amirak al-Suhrawardi was born in A.D.
1153 in the village of Suhraward near modern Zamjan in Persia. In time he would
be called al-Maqtul, 'he who was killed', and al-Shahid, 'the martyr', but
subsequent centuries settled on a name that at once described him and pronounced
its judgement Shaikh al-Ishraq, 'Master of Illumination'.

That verse is
75:17
[but i beg us all to ponder some of
these verses. on this list and on so many lists people reply fast and furious to
e-mails...th more we reflect and pray and love the closer to the
truth]
75:17
**
Inna AAalayna jamAAahu
waQur-anahu
It is we who will collect it into
Quran.

Thumma inna AAalayna Bayanahu
[notice THUMMA]

Then upon US rests the expounding
thereof. [notice
THEN here IS THE TRANSLATION OF **THUMMA**]

RE: A couple of questions