Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
In a message dated 12/10/2004 7:04:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: unity of thought refers to keeping one's mind and heart centered on Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha, i.e., the Covenant. It has nothing directly to do with the fundamentalist indoctrination process used by Ruhi. Dear Mark, This is how the term is used by Abdu'l-Baha in the Seven Candles of Unity: "The second candle is unity of thought in world undertakings, the consummation of which will erelong be witnessed" That's seems to refer more to the UN reaching a consensus than Baha'is being "on the same page" even about the Covenant. I just went back and looked at Baha'u'llah's Tablet of Unity. The phrase doesn't even occur there. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
Michael, At 08:36 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote: Unity in diversity does not imply uniformity! Why is there so much objection to a methodical system being introduced? The objections I have seen are not to a methodical system being introduced. They are to this particular methodical system being introduced. The study circle brings together a variety of people with a variety of opinions in a harmonious, welcoming atmosphere of learning (IMO). I would be interested in the demographics of long-term Ruhi participation and how it correlates with the general Baha'i populations in different areas. My guess* would is that we would see a negative correlation between participation and SES (socioeconomic status). The objections I see seem to be actuated by prejudice and an unwillingness to participate. That is not fair, Michael. All, or most, of the people here with degrees of unfavorable views of Ruhi have attended Ruhi meetings. Prejudice refers to prejudging based on stereotypes. In my case, I intentionally kept an open mind before going to my first Ruhi meeting. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
I said: Seems a tad hypocritical to me but that is just my take on this whole exchange. I just want to say that after I posted I noted that here is someone who has taken a year long vacation from just about anything Baha'i telling others to get off their fanny and do something. Dick Am I the pot or the kettle? D. _ Dont just search. Find. Check out the new MSN Search! http://search.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200636ave/direct/01/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
In a message dated 12/10/2004 9:15:56 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK, great. So develop something you think will. Surely you don't think the House of Justice would object to that do you? If they do, then I for one know this isn't the Baha'i Faith it used to be. But I'd have a hard time believing they'd get in the way. I doubt the House would object to any degree with developing new material. It is not the House that is pushing Ruhi. It is the Regional Teaching Institutes who will brook no variance. They say we HAVE Ruhi, so we should USE Ruhi and not waste time developing other material. Even the Fundamental Verities material has been totally eclipsed and we HAVE that material. I have done Books 1, 2, 4 and 7. One was okay, because the group functioned well. I have seen groups that do not function well. Book 2 made me uncomfortable because as much as it emphasized the Text it emphasized the opinion of the editors. Book 4 was basic, but very useful for most believers who have not made much study of the history of the Faith. Book 7 was interesting because in many ways it seemed to open up the system for a lot more flexibility than Book 1 would suggest. Unfortunately that spirit of flexibility does not seem to make it very far out of the book seven circle. I rarely see it practiced. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
RE: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
I doubt the House would object to any degree with developing new material. It is not the House that is pushing Ruhi. It is the Regional Teaching Institutes who will brook no variance. They say we HAVE Ruhi, so we should USE Ruhi and not waste time developing other material.[Susan Maneck] Dear Scott, I think it is more than that. As far as I can tell the ITC is behind the big Ruhi push. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
Hi, Susan, At 10:49 PM 12/9/2004, you wrote: I guess the question is will that 'unity of thought' not then be a literalistic one? And is that really what our Writings encourage? Given my personal emphasis on orthopraxy and polydoxy over orthodoxy, that is one of my concerns, as well. IMO, unity of thought refers to keeping one's mind and heart centered on Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha, i.e., the Covenant. It has nothing directly to do with the fundamentalist indoctrination process used by Ruhi. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
Unity in diversity does not imply uniformity! Why is there so much objection to a methodical system being introduced? Harmony of thought also does not negate the independent search for truth. The study circle brings together a variety of people with a variety of opinions in a harmonious, welcoming atmosphere of learning (IMO). Of course there are widely differing experiences but isn't this true of life in general? The objections I see seem to be actuated by prejudice and an unwillingness to participate. - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 1:53 PM Subject: Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi In a message dated 12/10/2004 7:04:01 A.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: unity of thought refers to keeping one's mind and heart centered on Baha'u'llah and `Abdu'l-Baha, i.e., the Covenant. It has nothing directly to do with the fundamentalist indoctrination process used by Ruhi. Dear Mark, This is how the term is used by Abdu'l-Baha in the Seven Candles of Unity: The second candle is unity of thought in world undertakings, the consummation of which will erelong be witnessed That's seems to refer more to the UN reaching a consensus than Baha'is being on the same page even about the Covenant. I just went back and looked at Baha'u'llah's Tablet of Unity. The phrase doesn't even occur there. warmest, Susan __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.809 / Virus Database: 551 - Release Date: 09/12/2004 __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
From: Mark A. Foster [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Baha'i Studies [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi Date: Fri, 10 Dec 2004 08:45:32 -0600 On the one hand you say: I would be interested in the demographics of long-term Ruhi participation and how it correlates with the general Baha'i populations in different areas. My guess* would is that we would see a negative correlation between participation and SES (socioeconomic status). And then you say: Prejudice refers to prejudging based on stereotypes. In my case, I intentionally kept an open mind before going to my first Ruhi meeting. Seems a tad hypocritical to me but that is just my take on this whole exchange. Forgive me for jumping in. Actually, its nice to see some life on this list! Gives me hope that the Faith might just have some life in it yet. I've been on a self-imposed year of patience with the Faith and being away from activity has given me some different perspectives. Anyway, I am a bit surprised at the consistent negativity towards Ruhi even though the House has over and over made it plain it has no intentions of forcing exclusivity to any form of deepening/teaching/studying. If you don't want to participate, fine. Who is forcing this on you? if there are people who are really taken with it and even NSA's who want to focus on it - is that affecting your own spiritual journey? Are they forcing you to participate? I'll be honest - Ruhi style learning is not my cup of tea. I took the first book and left the 2nd book (or was it the 3rd? - the one on teaching) because I was uncomfortable with it. But I can accept that there are members of our community who have gotten a lot out of it and from what I can tell there are 2nd generation study circles going on in the community which speaks to the value some here have put on the method. Granted, you (and I for that matter) may think it is overdone by some institutions and individuals but so what? Isn't the Faith big enough to overcome such mistakes? I sure hope so. If the Faith is what it means to be it better. Someone mentioned their objection to Ruhi being that it doesn't address the needs of the educated, well off westerners. OK, great. So develop something you think will. Surely you don't think the House of Justice would object to that do you? If they do, then I for one know this isn't the Baha'i Faith it used to be. But I'd have a hard time believing they'd get in the way. I mean, why is it so important to put down the efforts of obviously sincere and motivated individuals in a process that is at the worst a way of learning that doesn't fit your own particular style of learning and at the best, has been a positive influence in some communities around the world? Move on and do something you feel would be constructive. Surely the tent is big enough for that? _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/ __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
Hi, Dick, At 09:14 AM 12/10/2004, you wrote: On the one hand you say: I would be interested in the demographics of long-term Ruhi participation and how it correlates with the general Baha'i populations in different areas. My guess* would is that we would see a negative correlation between participation and SES (socioeconomic status). And then you say: Prejudice refers to prejudging based on stereotypes. In my case, I intentionally kept an open mind before going to my first Ruhi meeting. Seems a tad hypocritical to me but that is just my take on this whole exchange. I don't believe so. If so, social scientists exercise hypocrisy whenever they formulate hypotheses. On the one hand, you attempt to bracket' any personally held stereotypes (emotional generalizations). On the other, you make a prediction (hypothesis) about about possible relationships between variables. The two are not inconsistent. Anyway, I am a bit surprised at the consistent negativity towards Ruhi even though the House has over and over made it plain it has no intentions of forcing exclusivity to any form of deepening/teaching/studying. If you don't want to participate, fine. What if an NSA makes homefront pioneering goals contingent on conducting Ruhi classes? That sounds pretty exclusive to me. Who is forcing this on you? if there are people who are really taken with it and even NSA's who want to focus on it - is that affecting your own spiritual journey? Are they forcing you to participate? There are different types of pressure. Isn't the Faith big enough to overcome such mistakes? I sure hope so. If the Faith is what it means to be it better. I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise. Someone mentioned their objection to Ruhi being that it doesn't address the needs of the educated, well off westerners. OK, great. So develop something you think will. Surely you don't think the House of Justice would object to that do you? If they do, then I for one know this isn't the Baha'i Faith it used to be. But I'd have a hard time believing they'd get in the way. Eventually, I will get around to doing so. I had promised to start a list on this subject, but other things have taken my time. However, at least in the short term, Ruhi will be the only game in town (at least in the U.S.). I mean, why is it so important to put down the efforts of obviously sincere and motivated individuals in a process that is at the worst a way of learning that doesn't fit your own particular style of learning and at the best, has been a positive influence in some communities around the world? I can't speak to the rest of the world, but I do not see much in the way of positive influence, at least as I would define it, in the U.S. Mark A. Foster * http://markfoster.net Sacred cows make the tastiest hamburger -- Abbie Hoffman __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
In studying any course of the Ruhi Institute, participants are expected to achieve three levels of comprehension. The first is a basic understanding of the meaning of words and sentences. Thus, for example, after reading the quotation, The betterment of the world can be accomplished through pure and goodly deeds, through commendable and seemly conduct, the student is asked, How can the betterment of the world be accomplished? At first glance, this type of question may appear too simple. But, before reaching such a conclusion, one should examine the following two observations: Often, the tutor will divide the study group into pairs; one person in each pair is asked to read the quotation aloud, and the other is asked to formulate a question, the answer of which would be the quotation. This task of constructing a question from a sentence does not turn out to be as simple as it appears. The majority of participants need numerous exercises in order to acquire this apparently simple skill. The second observation has to do with the participants who insist on giving their own opinions and strongly resist giving a simple repetition of the quotation as the answer to a question. Clearly, there is nothing wrong in having and expressing one's own ideas; but an understanding of the Writings must begin by focusing the mind on what is being read before allowing one's imagination to roam and personal opinions to flow freely. It is quite likely that by first developing in believers who are in the early stages of their study of the Faith a capacity to focus attention on the immediate and explicit meaning of sentences they read from the Holy Writings, we will be contributing to the achievement of unity of thought in our communities, since such a unity can only be achieved when personal opinions are illuminated by Divine Wisdom. (Ruhi Books, Learning About Growth) __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:35:22 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: It is quite likely that by first developing inbelievers who are in the early stages of their study of the Faith a capacityto focus attention on the immediate and explicit meaning of sentences theyread from the Holy Writings, we will be contributing to the achievement ofunity of thought in our communities, Does this postulate that those in the early stages of the study of the Faith have no valid opinions or personal interpretations? I like the bias of the Ruhi editors less and less the more I read it. I have done four of the Ruhi books myself and the further they get from the rigid "method" of Book 1, the better I like them. Regards, Scott __ You are subscribed to Baha'i Studies as: mailto:archive@mail-archive.com To unsubscribe, send a blank email to mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] To subscribe, use subscribe bahai-st in the message body to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Baha'i Studies is available through the following: Mail - mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Web - http://list.jccc.edu/read/?forum=bahai-st News - news://list.jccc.edu/bahai-st Public - http://www.escribe.com/religion/bahaist Old Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.net New Public - http://www.mail-archive.com/bahai-st@list.jccc.edu
Re: No Personal Opinions in Ruhi
In a message dated 12/9/2004 10:35:17 P.M. Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Thus, for example, after reading thequotation, The betterment of the world can be accomplished through pureand goodly deeds, through commendable and seemly conduct, the student isasked, "How can the betterment of the world be accomplished?" At firstglance, this type of question may appear too simple. But, before reachingsuch a conclusion, one should examine the following two observations: Often,the tutor will divide the study group into pairs; one person in each pair isasked to read the quotation aloud, and the other is asked to formulate aquestion, the answer of which would be the quotation. This task ofconstructing a question from a sentence does not turn out to be as simple asit appears. The majority of participants need numerous exercises in order toacquire this apparently simple skill. Dear Max, I did find, much to my surprise, that this was true of the majority of the participants in my own study circle. Even though most of the participants had college degrees, they just couldn't 'get' this part which seemed obvious to me from the start. I realized at that point I was vastly overestimating the ability of most Baha'is to read a text. My son made that point as well when he voiced his disagreement with me over Ruhi. "Mom," he says, "the Writings are hard to read." I was surprised because Neil had been reading these texts fluently in Feast since he was eight. It never occurred to me that he might not be understanding them. "It is quite likely that by first developing inbelievers who are in the early stages of their study of the Faith a capacityto focus attention on the immediate and explicit meaning of sentences theyread from the Holy Writings, we will be contributing to the achievement ofunity of thought in our communities" I guess the question is will that 'unity of thought' not then be a literalistic one? And is that really what our Writings encourage? warmest, Susan b.n+Zbzrzf+r &iZGj)mf%ymZxm+- ymzm)y %+- yjJ"Va^~efjbqgibqi
