Re: Nutrient blockers
Lloyd, Can we come back to aluminium/calcium ratios, please. Assuming the 'ideal' is 0:400, I want you to consider a scenario where a 'strip' of african lovegrass 2-4 metres wide weaves through undulating pastureland for a distance of approximately one km. The soil with the lovegrass when analysed shows an Al/Ca ratio of 100:150 whereas the ratio on both sides of the strip where there is no lovegrass indicates 0:350. The pH is around 5.5. I'm interested in what your conclusions would be in that situation. roger
Re: Nutrient blockers
- Original Message - From: Roger Pye [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 19, 2002 7:38 PM Subject: Re: Nutrient blockers Lloyd, Can we come back to aluminium/calcium ratios, please. Assuming the 'ideal' is 0:400, I want you to consider a scenario where a 'strip' of african lovegrass 2-4 metres wide weaves through undulating pastureland for a distance of approximately one km. The soil with the lovegrass when analysed shows an Al/Ca ratio of 100:150 whereas the ratio on both sides of the strip where there is no lovegrass indicates 0:350. The pH is around 5.5. I'm interested in what your conclusions would be in that situation. roger Hi Roger This is a bit of a trick question I think! I really should see the site before commenting but lets excercise our imagination for a bit. I am assuming the numbers you are using are from James? If so they would be the result of a pendulum analysis? I dont have a problem there, I've seen him use it close up, but depending on how he framed his questions and his base knowledge of soil testing/analysis could put a different meaning on ratios etc to what I am used to from hard chemistry tests. The lovegrass could be something as simple as seed washed in from offsite in previous seasons. It likes to grow in acid soil conditions maybe it also can promote acidic soil solution by its root exudates? There really could be a hundred explanations for this - contamination from some chemical - say a spray tanker or sheep dip trailed out across the paddock. A leaky bag of seed when the first lovegrass was introduced to the area. A change in the subsurface structure. I get the feeling that something is going on underground in this area but it really is a puzzle. However like most puzzles there is probably a simple answer! I would like to see conventional soil tests and if it was my site I would do that sampling the lovegrass band separate from the other area - still won't tell the cause though will it? More later I think Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Nutrient blockers
- Original Message - From: tachung_h [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 11:28 PM Subject: RE: Nutrient blockers What are the experience from members of this list in using Humic Acid to buffer the negative impact of inorganic fertilizer such as NH4 and to allow minerals to be easily absorbed by plants. Hi TaChung Huang (¶À¤j©¾) I have been using Humic acid and molasses for exactly this purpose to buffer the effects of any inputs and cultivation. They both compensate any carbon loss from cultivating and energy use up to assimulate inputs. I have been using Humic acid for 6 months over the autunm /winter months and this spring i have seen some changes for the better. Every time i add some thing or cultivate the soil i spray with a mixture of 100 litres worm leachate, 2.5 litres humic acid, 500gms of Molasses[ i use a 500 gm honey pot and drop the whole lot into container and stir . A 10 litre knapsack will cover 300m2 at a slow walking speed. Cheers Tony Robinson -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lloyd Charles Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 5:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Nutrient blockers - Original Message - From: tachung_h [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:41 AM Subject: RE: Nutrient blockers Hi Lyoyd: Thank you for the kind assistance and explanations. It is very helpful. What does it mean when people say that long term usage of inorganic fertilizer will cause the soil to become acidic? Is it because the fertilizer itself is acidic? There are some fertilisers that are acidic but the main cause of soil acidity seems to be from chemical reactions involved in the nitrogen cycle and breakdown of organic matter There are several mechanisms involved 1. The actual chemistry of the fertiliser applied - when ammonium NH4 is converted to Nitrate NO3 there is excess hydrogen into the soil solution - these fertilisers need about 2kg of lime per kg of Nitrogen to neutralise the released hydrogen. 2. Leaching of Nitrate leaves excess hydrogen 3. Excess application of nitrogen fertiliser burns up soil organic matter leading to further excess of nitrate and leaching (this can happen with excessive animal manures too) Good healthy microbial activity will prevent much of this from happening by buffering the negative effects, by locking up applied nitrogen and releasing it slowly as plants require it. Or is it because the calcium is bonded with other ions and leached away? Soils low in calcium (unbalanced) require higher inputs (overdosing)of salt fertilisers to get a satisfactory yield - the plants are watery, brix readings low, and the plants more susceptible to drought stress, diseases and insect attack. There is much more to this than I have written here L Charles Regards TaChung Huang
Re: Nutrient blockers
- Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 11:53 PM Subject: Re: Nutrient blockers Thanks, Tony. Would you mind being more precise with your recommendations, especially in regard to the humic acid? (I guess I really need the same info about the molasses, also.) Sort of Which? What Kind of? How Much? How frequently, and so on? Thanks! -Allan Hi Allan I use a certified organic product called Humusol made in NewZealand from imported raw material derived from Leonardite. Manufactures recommendation 20 litres/ha autumn/winter followed by 20 L/ha spring in aminium of 400 litres water Best results will be obtained with 25-30 ml rain 5-10 days after cultivation. Because I like to spray each time I add something /cultivate the soil during the autumn I do all my soil prepartion/ bed forming in the autumn cover with a light layer of wood chips and leave for the winter to digest I use the humusol at the rate 1-40. I spray with a mixture of 100 litres worm leachate, or water 2.5 litres humusol, 500 gms of Molasses[ I use a 500 gm honey pot and drop the whole lot into container and stir . A 10 litre knapsack will cover 300m2 at a slow walking speed. I then spray again after planting . This springs planting it will become part of a post planting sequential spray. Cheers Tony
Re: Nutrient blockers
- you could try calcium lignosulfonate Lloyd Charles Hi Lloyd what is calcium lignosulfonate? please. I need to boost my sulphate levels to suck up surplus cations especially Mg This sound interesting. Thankyou Tony NZ Hi Tony I have not used it so am shooting in the dark a bit - its a chelated liquid calcium (not liquid lime) and is an allowable organic input - much more expensive and lower calcium than clacium nitrate - I have suggested it would be worth trying by certified organic producers as a weed suppressant with molasses which is how we are using calcium nitrate (and getting good results). This is the sort of situation where the constraints of certification are often counter productive - but I realise there need to be rules and rules must be easily interpreted and simple to enforce or they dont work! The small amount of calcium nitrate we use (2 to 4 kg / ha / year ) enhances the growth and quality of our crops and improves soil conditions for the microbes, has almost eliminated broadleaf weeds in the early crop growth stage and has depressed the growth of ryegrass to the stage that we can keep it down with follow up foliar nutrition in most cases. If calcium lignosulfonate would get a similar result for a certified grower it would be a major gain for organic grain farmers!! Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Nutrient blockers
- Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 11:40 PM Subject: Re: Nutrient blockers Good quality humic acid is a valuable material - used in small quantities - but beware there are some coal based products that are detrimental to plant growth so you need to test first or know someone that has used the product successfully on crop plants. There are humates made for use in mining (for addition to drilling mud) that just dont work in agriculture. LCharles Lloyd - It's o.k. and appropriate to name the brands that you work worth and to suggest other brands that you've heard work well on biological soils. -Allan As a dry humate I like the russian Gumat - I use this in seed dressings. Liquid that I have used so far comes from American colloid co Arlington Illinois. This is a nice product with satisfactory energy readings for our conditions and reasonably priced - probably will be replaced by the russian stuff now that I have located some of that. There may be better materials than these but they work ok for me in my conditions and are readily available in my local area. Have heard good reports on the Mennafee - new mexico humate but its expensive here and difficult for me to get. Dont know what else to add - these seem to work ok so I am not inclined to change unless I happen onto something better. Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Nutrient blockers
Dear Mr Charles, Your emails are being sent to [EMAIL PROTECTED] my server says the isp is mis-rooting the email thanks for seeing into this Sincerely, Pie Lloyd Charles wrote: - Original Message - From: tachung_h [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 8:28 PM Subject: RE: Nutrient blockers What are the experience from members of this list in using Humic Acid to buffer the negative impact of inorganic fertilizer such as NH4 and to allow minerals to be easily absorbed by plants. Good quality humic acid is a valuable material - used in small quantities - but beware there are some coal based products that are detrimental to plant growth so you need to test first or know someone that has used the product successfully on crop plants. There are humates made for use in mining (for addition to drilling mud) that just dont work in agriculture. LCharles Regards TaChung Huang
Re: Nutrient blockers
Dear Sir, Your emails are reaching [EMAIL PROTECTED] My server says the senders isp is mis-routing the emails Thanks for looking into this situation, Sincerely, M. Pie tachung_h wrote: What are the experience from members of this list in using Humic Acid to buffer the negative impact of inorganic fertilizer such as NH4 and to allow minerals to be easily absorbed by plants. Regards TaChung Huang (¶À¤j©¾) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lloyd Charles Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 5:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Nutrient blockers - Original Message - From: tachung_h [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:41 AM Subject: RE: Nutrient blockers Hi Lyoyd: Thank you for the kind assistance and explanations. It is very helpful. What does it mean when people say that long term usage of inorganic fertilizer will cause the soil to become acidic? Is it because the fertilizer itself is acidic? There are some fertilisers that are acidic but the main cause of soil acidity seems to be from chemical reactions involved in the nitrogen cycle and breakdown of organic matter There are several mechanisms involved 1. The actual chemistry of the fertiliser applied - when ammonium NH4 is converted to Nitrate NO3 there is excess hydrogen into the soil solution - these fertilisers need about 2kg of lime per kg of Nitrogen to neutralise the released hydrogen. 2. Leaching of Nitrate leaves excess hydrogen 3. Excess application of nitrogen fertiliser burns up soil organic matter leading to further excess of nitrate and leaching (this can happen with excessive animal manures too) Good healthy microbial activity will prevent much of this from happening by buffering the negative effects, by locking up applied nitrogen and releasing it slowly as plants require it. Or is it because the calcium is bonded with other ions and leached away? Soils low in calcium (unbalanced) require higher inputs (overdosing)of salt fertilisers to get a satisfactory yield - the plants are watery, brix readings low, and the plants more susceptible to drought stress, diseases and insect attack. There is much more to this than I have written here L Charles Regards TaChung Huang
Re: Nutrient blockers
Dear Mr Balliett, Your emails are reaching [EMAIL PROTECTED] in error, My server says the senders isp is mis-routing the email Thanks for looking into this matter. Sincerely M Pie Allan Balliett wrote: Thanks, Tony. Would you mind being more precise with your recommendations, especially in regard to the humic acid? (I guess I really need the same info about the molasses, also.) Sort of Which? What Kind of? How Much? How frequently, and so on? Thanks! -Allan Allan try adding some humic acid and molasses to your sprays when you are doing the ground perparation and adding compost this will help give the microbes a buzz untill your organic matter [humus] content is higher enough to do it naturally. Use this at soil preparation and until plants are established and the just use mollasses with your sprays until harvest. Molasses is the quictest way to raise energy levels to overcome problems as you have described. Also a good boost when plants are under stress.
Re: Nutrient blockers
Friends - I took the exact to this contrary cell this afternoon. Let's hope for the best. -Allan Balliett, moderator, BIODYNAMICS NOW!
RE: Nutrient blockers
What are the experience from members of this list in using Humic Acid to buffer the negative impact of inorganic fertilizer such as NH4 and to allow minerals to be easily absorbed by plants. Regards TaChung Huang (¶À¤j©¾) -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lloyd Charles Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 5:44 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Nutrient blockers - Original Message - From: tachung_h [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:41 AM Subject: RE: Nutrient blockers Hi Lyoyd: Thank you for the kind assistance and explanations. It is very helpful. What does it mean when people say that long term usage of inorganic fertilizer will cause the soil to become acidic? Is it because the fertilizer itself is acidic? There are some fertilisers that are acidic but the main cause of soil acidity seems to be from chemical reactions involved in the nitrogen cycle and breakdown of organic matter There are several mechanisms involved 1. The actual chemistry of the fertiliser applied - when ammonium NH4 is converted to Nitrate NO3 there is excess hydrogen into the soil solution - these fertilisers need about 2kg of lime per kg of Nitrogen to neutralise the released hydrogen. 2. Leaching of Nitrate leaves excess hydrogen 3. Excess application of nitrogen fertiliser burns up soil organic matter leading to further excess of nitrate and leaching (this can happen with excessive animal manures too) Good healthy microbial activity will prevent much of this from happening by buffering the negative effects, by locking up applied nitrogen and releasing it slowly as plants require it. Or is it because the calcium is bonded with other ions and leached away? Soils low in calcium (unbalanced) require higher inputs (overdosing)of salt fertilisers to get a satisfactory yield - the plants are watery, brix readings low, and the plants more susceptible to drought stress, diseases and insect attack. There is much more to this than I have written here L Charles Regards TaChung Huang
Re: Nutrient blockers
Thanks, Tony. Would you mind being more precise with your recommendations, especially in regard to the humic acid? (I guess I really need the same info about the molasses, also.) Sort of Which? What Kind of? How Much? How frequently, and so on? Thanks! -Allan Allan try adding some humic acid and molasses to your sprays when you are doing the ground perparation and adding compost this will help give the microbes a buzz untill your organic matter [humus] content is higher enough to do it naturally. Use this at soil preparation and until plants are established and the just use mollasses with your sprays until harvest. Molasses is the quictest way to raise energy levels to overcome problems as you have described. Also a good boost when plants are under stress.
Re: Nutrient blockers
- Original Message - From: tachung_h [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 8:28 PM Subject: RE: Nutrient blockers What are the experience from members of this list in using Humic Acid to buffer the negative impact of inorganic fertilizer such as NH4 and to allow minerals to be easily absorbed by plants. Good quality humic acid is a valuable material - used in small quantities - but beware there are some coal based products that are detrimental to plant growth so you need to test first or know someone that has used the product successfully on crop plants. There are humates made for use in mining (for addition to drilling mud) that just dont work in agriculture. LCharles Regards TaChung Huang
Re: Nutrient blockers
- Original Message - From: Allan Balliett [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, October 13, 2002 8:53 PM Subject: Re: Nutrient blockers Thanks, Tony. Would you mind being more precise with your recommendations, especially in regard to the humic acid? (I guess I really need the same info about the molasses, also.) Sort of Which? What Kind of? How Much? How frequently, and so on? Thanks! -Allan Hi Allan Humic acid - we would use a good quality liquid formulation at only about a litre to the hectare once or maybe twice a year with some molasses 2 to 4 litres /hectare but am tending more to using it in a compost based brew that results in about 150 to 200 ml per hectare per trip (say three to five applications per year) of humic acid, fish, kelp, and molasses in the brew, plus we will put about another 2 litres per hectare of molasses in the sprayer tank at application. If you use a high quality powdered humate such as the Gumat brand or similar I think the rate would be much less. Molasses - we use as above in brew mix - and with just about anything we spray - molasses is a great mixer, sticker, spreader, it helps to mix components. We probably are using plenty of it - about 10 to 12 litres per hectare total per year - but usually applying only two to a maximum of four litres at any one time. I use the heaviest rate on stubble for breakdown and as a post sowing pre emergence weed deterrent with liqiud calcium (calcium nitrate) - you could try calcium lignosulfonate or one of the liquid limes for this purpose - mix 2 litres calcium with 4 to 6 litres molasses per hectare. Most times i have got a couple of litres of tank brew in too. Tony's usage will be different to mine and probably more relevant to your situation - hope this is of some help. Cheers Lloyd Charles Allan try adding some humic acid and molasses to your sprays when you are doing the ground perparation and adding compost this will help give the microbes a buzz untill your organic matter [humus] content is higher enough to do it naturally. Use this at soil preparation and until plants are established and the just use mollasses with your sprays until harvest. Molasses is the quictest way to raise energy levels to overcome problems as you have described. Also a good boost when plants are under stress.
Re: Nutrient blockers
Good quality humic acid is a valuable material - used in small quantities - but beware there are some coal based products that are detrimental to plant growth so you need to test first or know someone that has used the product successfully on crop plants. There are humates made for use in mining (for addition to drilling mud) that just dont work in agriculture. LCharles Lloyd - It's o.k. and appropriate to name the brands that you work worth and to suggest other brands that you've heard work well on biological soils. -Allan
Re: Nutrient blockers
- Original Message - From: tachung_h [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Saturday, October 12, 2002 3:41 AM Subject: RE: Nutrient blockers Hi Lyoyd: Thank you for the kind assistance and explanations. It is very helpful. What does it mean when people say that long term usage of inorganic fertilizer will cause the soil to become acidic? Is it because the fertilizer itself is acidic? There are some fertilisers that are acidic but the main cause of soil acidity seems to be from chemical reactions involved in the nitrogen cycle and breakdown of organic matter There are several mechanisms involved 1. The actual chemistry of the fertiliser applied - when ammonium NH4 is converted to Nitrate NO3 there is excess hydrogen into the soil solution - these fertilisers need about 2kg of lime per kg of Nitrogen to neutralise the released hydrogen. 2. Leaching of Nitrate leaves excess hydrogen 3. Excess application of nitrogen fertiliser burns up soil organic matter leading to further excess of nitrate and leaching (this can happen with excessive animal manures too) Good healthy microbial activity will prevent much of this from happening by buffering the negative effects, by locking up applied nitrogen and releasing it slowly as plants require it. Or is it because the calcium is bonded with other ions and leached away? Soils low in calcium (unbalanced) require higher inputs (overdosing)of salt fertilisers to get a satisfactory yield - the plants are watery, brix readings low, and the plants more susceptible to drought stress, diseases and insect attack. There is much more to this than I have written here L Charles Regards TaChung Huang
RE: Nutrient blockers
Hi Lyoyd: Thank you for the kind assistance and explanations. It is very helpful. What does it mean when people say that long term usage of inorganic fertilizer will cause the soil to become acidic? Is it because the fertilizer itself is acidic? Or is it because the calcium is bonded with other ions and leached away? Regards TaChung Huang -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lloyd Charles Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 8:49 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Nutrient blockers - Original Message - From: tachung_h [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 7:39 AM Subject: RE: Nutrient blockers HI Lloyd : In what form does Al exist when the PH is above the cutoff point? The basic framework of the clay particles in soil is Aluminium Al(OH)6 and Silica SiO4 . a strong acid soil solution breaks down some of the clay structure and Aluminium becomes soluble - plant available as Al+++ How does calcium get depleted? Does it leach away like the inorganic N ? We export it from the farm in the bones of animals, in milk, in grains and hay sold off farm. We change the nutrient ratio balance by adding other things like potassium fertiliser, or we lock up calcium by adding acid phosphate fertilisers that combine with soil calcium, and yes it leaches down the profile out of the root zone. Many agronomists disagree with this last bit but if you dig deep enough most any where you will find a layer of accumulated calcium Cheers Lloyd Charles. Regards TaChung Huang
Re: Nutrient blockers
Once we get that far then active organic matter and microbial activity can do a lot to retrieve the situation, the soil critters have a huge capacity to buffer pH, sequester (tie up) nutrients that are in oversupply, and to release those that are lacking. This takes time and my opinion is that in an intensive growing situation - vegetables - fruit trees - cut flowers - any high return crop - the money spent on lime, rock phosphate, rock dust, trace elements should be quickly recovered in increased production and higher quality. Once a soil is up and running we can use energetics to sustain it but its too much to expect of Biodynamics, Radionics, Homeopathics, or any other subtle energy system - if we think that these methods can bring back sick soils without some physical application of whats lacking. My opinion anyway! Cheers Lloyd Charles Dear list I heartily agree with what Lloyd has said . If your soil nutrient levels are out of kilter for one reason or another it is very hard to get BD, organics to work properly. It has taken me 5 years of research and much help from this list to work out why BD has not worked properly on my property in the last 10 years. The reason being is that my Base Saturation levels are way out of kilter caused by past management practices. Very high phosphate and magnesium levels and low potash .Thanks to Phil Wheelers book Non Toxic Farming I now have the information to change this . It has meant using softer fertilisers like Sulphate of Potash and Sulphate of Ammonia and Calcium Sulphate[ gypsum] in small quantities and the use of lime to get the right BS levels along with all the BD preps BC and potencies Sulphate of Potash and Sulphate of Ammonia and Calcium Sulphate to speed the process up. To each 50 m2 raised bed 3 m3 of sand sawdust and compost has been applied to help dilute the surplus nutrients and to bring organic matter in assist microbial activity. With the use of a brix ,pH,and a conductivity meter,observation and monitoring of crop production levels I am now seeing a steady improvement in crop health. A Foliar feeding programme is also part of this scenario it is the quickest way to correct any deficiencies during the season . For further research read Non_Toxic Farming Handbook by Philip Wheeler and Ronald Ward. Science in Agriculture by Arden Anderson Farming in the 21st Century by Dan Skow Source of books Acres USA web site http://www.acresusa.com This is what I have done with help from this list Thanks Cheers Tony Robinson
Re: Nutrient blockers
For further research read Non_Toxic Farming Handbook by Philip Wheeler and Ronald Ward. Science in Agriculture by Arden Anderson Farming in the 21st Century by Dan Skow Source of books Acres USA web site http://www.acresusa.com This is what I have done with help from this list Thanks Cheers Tony Robinson I'll add to what Tony and Lloyd have said. This first year at Blue Ridge I find my organic matter level is no better than 2.7percent. I didn't know what this meant until a few weeks ago. Although we got lots of compliments on the garden at the conference, most of those compliments ended with for a first year garden. What I found out ultimately was the foliar sprays and bd sprays were NOT registering.Neither was compost tea, either as a root soak innoculant or as a disease supressing foliar. I had, btw, applied the reqested rock powders directly to the soil to adjust to the albrecht ratios. I feel, however, that with OM below 3.0, I just couldn't muster enough microbial buzz to really see any of this stuff working. On the other hand, in my home garden in Shepherstown, I started doing BD in 1985. By about 1992 the soil had moved from red WV clay to something akin to pottin soil. I had used much BD compost, but not an awful lot. I used the preps much more than any Demeter certified farm w.b. required to. The upshot: when I sequentially spray in the garden, the plants stand at attention for days afterwards. The affect of the preps is so profound that even organic growers ask me how I get my plants to 'look so good.' I feel that my early misunderstanding of AP's work has set back my effectiveness in startup gardens, like this summer's experience at Blue Ridge. This coming year, it's going to be 20tons of BD compost to the acre, with the compost containing the rock powders necessary to achieve Albrecht balancing. I'm starting with preps already this season and hope to apply ALL THE PREPS regularly until spring (and there after) It's easy to forget that the Ag lectures were given to established European farmers who were working very well developed farms. It's little wonder that RS left out a lot of basic farm talk as he explained how to bring the soil back to life. -Allan
Re: Nutrient blockers
- Original Message - From: Roger Pye [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 5:54 PM Subject: Nutrient blockers Does anyone know whether aluminium locks calcium up in soils? roger -- Hi Roger Other way round!!- calcium locks up aluminium - Its a chain of events - calcium depletion - then low pH - then the acidity makes aluminium available - Al is a +++ so its some of the last to come unstuck. So you are not going to have available aluminium at toxic levels unless you have the extreme low pH that comes with a serious lack of calcium (or magnesium in a real sandy soil). This will be at pH less than 4.5 calcium chloride - in our red soils we can go as low as 4.2 before serious trouble - in your country probably 4.4 would be the cutoff point. . Aluminium levels rocket upwards as the pH drops that last half point or so. So the aluminium is a result of a lack of available calcium not the cause of it. Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Nutrient blockers
Lloyd and all, Is there a way to raise ph and calcium without using lime? Or is lime the answer? Daniel - Original Message - From: Lloyd Charles [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 7:04 AM Subject: Re: Nutrient blockers - Original Message - From: Roger Pye [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 5:54 PM Subject: Nutrient blockers Does anyone know whether aluminium locks calcium up in soils? roger -- Hi Roger Other way round!!- calcium locks up aluminium - Its a chain of events - calcium depletion - then low pH - then the acidity makes aluminium available - Al is a +++ so its some of the last to come unstuck. So you are not going to have available aluminium at toxic levels unless you have the extreme low pH that comes with a serious lack of calcium (or magnesium in a real sandy soil). This will be at pH less than 4.5 calcium chloride - in our red soils we can go as low as 4.2 before serious trouble - in your country probably 4.4 would be the cutoff point. . Aluminium levels rocket upwards as the pH drops that last half point or so. So the aluminium is a result of a lack of available calcium not the cause of it. Cheers Lloyd Charles
RE: Nutrient blockers
HI Lloyd : In what form does Al exist when the PH is above the cutoff point? How does calcium get depleted? Does it leach away like the inorganic N ? Regards TaChung Huang -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Lloyd Charles Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 7:04 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Nutrient blockers - Original Message - From: Roger Pye [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, October 10, 2002 5:54 PM Subject: Nutrient blockers Does anyone know whether aluminium locks calcium up in soils? roger -- Hi Roger Other way round!!- calcium locks up aluminium - Its a chain of events - calcium depletion - then low pH - then the acidity makes aluminium available - Al is a +++ so its some of the last to come unstuck. So you are not going to have available aluminium at toxic levels unless you have the extreme low pH that comes with a serious lack of calcium (or magnesium in a real sandy soil). This will be at pH less than 4.5 calcium chloride - in our red soils we can go as low as 4.2 before serious trouble - in your country probably 4.4 would be the cutoff point. . Aluminium levels rocket upwards as the pH drops that last half point or so. So the aluminium is a result of a lack of available calcium not the cause of it. Cheers Lloyd Charles
Re: Nutrient blockers
- Original Message - From: tachung_h [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, October 11, 2002 7:39 AM Subject: RE: Nutrient blockers HI Lloyd : In what form does Al exist when the PH is above the cutoff point? The basic framework of the clay particles in soil is Aluminium Al(OH)6 and Silica SiO4 . a strong acid soil solution breaks down some of the clay structure and Aluminium becomes soluble - plant available as Al+++ How does calcium get depleted? Does it leach away like the inorganic N ? We export it from the farm in the bones of animals, in milk, in grains and hay sold off farm. We change the nutrient ratio balance by adding other things like potassium fertiliser, or we lock up calcium by adding acid phosphate fertilisers that combine with soil calcium, and yes it leaches down the profile out of the root zone. Many agronomists disagree with this last bit but if you dig deep enough most any where you will find a layer of accumulated calcium Cheers Lloyd Charles. Regards TaChung Huang
Re: Nutrient blockers
Title: Re: Nutrient blockers Lloyd, you've praised others for their writing, with a little tweaking you will be quoted on this: L*L Markess This takes time and my opinion is that in an intensive growing situation - vegetables - fruit trees - cut flowers - any high return crop - the money spent on lime, rock phosphate, rock dust, trace elements should be quickly recovered in increased production and higher quality. Once a soil is up and running we can use energetics to sustain it but its too much to expect of Biodynamics, Radionics, Homeopathics, or any other subtle energy system - if we think that these methods can bring back sick soils without some physical application of whats lacking. My opinion anyway! Cheers Lloyd Charles
