Re: [Bitcoin-development] Standardizing automatic pre-negotiation of transaction terms with BIP70? (Emulating Amazon one-click purchase at all merchants)
Why would anyone want to do anything about payment before choosing what he wants to buy and for what price? I've never used Amazon but isn't filling a form with shipping information enough? 2015-02-10 11:21 GMT+01:00 Natanael natanae...@gmail.com: BIP70 is a protocol for getting a user's wallet client communicate with a merchant's server in order to agree on details like where to send the payment, how much to send, what the shipping address is, sending a receipt back, and much more using various extensions that adds more functionality. There could even be advanced functionality for automatically negotiating terms. One example could be selecting a multisignature arbitrator both sides trust. Another could be to agree on the speed and type of delivery. Many more types of decisions could be automatically agreed upon. But as it is now, it is designed to be initiated at the time of payment. If you always want next-day delivery from online stores then you won't always know if that's an option until you've filled the digital basket and gone through checkout. If you only want to shop with an arbitrator involved same thing applies. Everything that BIP70 enables happens at the last step only, as it is right now. If there could be a BIP70 HTML tag on web shops that automatically triggered your wallet as soon as you visit the page, it would be possible for a browser extension that talks to your wallet to tell you right away if the web shop you're currently looking at has terms you consider acceptable or not (note: if your wallet client isn't installed on or linked to that same machine, a visible Qr code would be an acceptable alternative which you can scan in advance before you start shopping). This notification can even be automatically updated as you add and remove things from your cart and details like shipping options change. This would massively simplify the shipping experience and make every web shop feel like Amazon. Of course this has privacy implications and increases exposure to potential wallet exploits, but the wallet can ask you if you intend to shop or not at each site before it even connects and send any information at all in order to mitigate both of those problems. This way it should be reasonably safe. Another option would be to automatically connect but limit what data is sent in order to remain privacy preserving, until the user agrees to send private information. This second method would also open up for the merchant to other send relevant information such as details about various certifications from third parties, which can include a certification that shows they have been been audited and approved by by entity X for purpose Y. If your wallet has that entity whitelisted it will show you that certificate (for example Acme Audits have audited and approves of Merchant M's privacy policy and data protection). With a list of predefined types of certifications that the wallet understand and accepts, it could (by choice of the user) require a certificate to be present to even allow you to make a purchase (lack of required certifications would result in automatic denial). No certificate = your wallet never proceed to send private information. Thoughts? - Sent from my tablet -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Standardizing automatic pre-negotiation of transaction terms with BIP70? (Emulating Amazon one-click purchase at all merchants)
Den 10 feb 2015 11:34 skrev MⒶrtin HⒶboⓋštiak martin.habovst...@gmail.com : Why would anyone want to do anything about payment before choosing what he wants to buy and for what price? I've never used Amazon but isn't filling a form with shipping information enough? That's not what this is about. BIP70 isn't just payment, it is about communication the terms of the sale. Let's say you're visiting an international webshop. But they don't ship to your country. Wouldn't you want to know that before your start filling the cart? With this, your wallet / browser extension could tell you right away that you can't shop there. No time wasted! That's just one requirement of many where you would benefit from being told right away if it is acceptable for both parties or not. -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Standardizing automatic pre-negotiation of transaction terms with BIP70? (Emulating Amazon one-click purchase at all merchants)
Let's say you're visiting an international webshop. But they don't ship to your country. Wouldn't you want to know that before your start filling the cart? With this, your wallet / browser extension could tell you right away that you can't shop there. No time wasted! Why my wallet has to do anything with me being in some country? The webshop may detect my location and tell me if they ship to where I'm currently in. Why should I associate more private information (my location) with my wallet than strictly necessary? Why should I automatically advertise my shipping address to every webshop without my explicit consent? The wallet must be convenient only as much as it allows for better security and privacy, but not trading off security and privacy for some unrelated convenience. -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Standardizing automatic pre-negotiation of transaction terms with BIP70? (Emulating Amazon one-click purchase at all merchants)
On 02/10/2015 02:41 AM, Natanael wrote: Den 10 feb 2015 11:34 skrev MⒶrtin HⒶboⓋštiak martin.habovst...@gmail.com mailto:martin.habovst...@gmail.com: Why would anyone want to do anything about payment before choosing what he wants to buy and for what price? I've never used Amazon but isn't filling a form with shipping information enough? That's not what this is about. BIP70 isn't just payment, it is about communication the terms of the sale. Hi Natanael, BIP70 exists for seller non-repudiation (i.e. a cryptographically signed receipt for payment) and establishing strong seller identity in a face-to-face or other non-web scenario (since TLS doesn't help). Anything else is incidental. Let's say you're visiting an international webshop. But they don't ship to your country. Wouldn't you want to know that before your start filling the cart? With this, your wallet / browser extension could tell you right away that you can't shop there. No time wasted! That's just one requirement of many where you would benefit from being told right away if it is acceptable for both parties or not. There's quite a bit that can be done with wallets and web sites, but personally I'd freak out if my wallet prompted me because I visited a web site. e signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Standardizing automatic pre-negotiation of transaction terms with BIP70? (Emulating Amazon one-click purchase at all merchants)
I still don't understand. The website can have this information available. This is exactly what e-bay does - it displays shipping information to my country before I do anything. What's the problem? Also with other stuff, website can do it and browser extension can do it too without messing with Bitcoin. 2015-02-10 11:41 GMT+01:00 Natanael natanae...@gmail.com: Den 10 feb 2015 11:34 skrev MⒶrtin HⒶboⓋštiak martin.habovst...@gmail.com: Why would anyone want to do anything about payment before choosing what he wants to buy and for what price? I've never used Amazon but isn't filling a form with shipping information enough? That's not what this is about. BIP70 isn't just payment, it is about communication the terms of the sale. Let's say you're visiting an international webshop. But they don't ship to your country. Wouldn't you want to know that before your start filling the cart? With this, your wallet / browser extension could tell you right away that you can't shop there. No time wasted! That's just one requirement of many where you would benefit from being told right away if it is acceptable for both parties or not. -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Standardizing automatic pre-negotiation of transaction terms with BIP70? (Emulating Amazon one-click purchase at all merchants)
Den 10 feb 2015 11:48 skrev MⒶrtin HⒶboⓋštiak martin.habovst...@gmail.com : I still don't understand. The website can have this information available. This is exactly what e-bay does - it displays shipping information to my country before I do anything. What's the problem? Also with other stuff, website can do it and browser extension can do it too without messing with Bitcoin. 1: IP isn't guaranteed to work correctly both because you might be using a VPN out Tor. 2: Yes, the site can display all options right away, but are you willing to read all of them too? 3: Detailed information is not necessary, nor does it have to be unprompted. It doesn't need to tell you more than which country you are in. It can even prompt you with a popup that has a slider that shows exactly how much information and of what kind you're about to share (including none, if that's your choice). 4: It doesn't need to share raw data. Take a look at anonymous credentials: http://www.zurich.ibm.com/idemix/ https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/622.pdf 5: It can wait for prompting until you add the first item to the cart. -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Standardizing automatic pre-negotiation of transaction terms with BIP70? (Emulating Amazon one-click purchase at all merchants)
2015-02-10 12:12 GMT+01:00 Natanael natanae...@gmail.com: Den 10 feb 2015 11:48 skrev MⒶrtin HⒶboⓋštiak martin.habovst...@gmail.com: I still don't understand. The website can have this information available. This is exactly what e-bay does - it displays shipping information to my country before I do anything. What's the problem? Also with other stuff, website can do it and browser extension can do it too without messing with Bitcoin. 1: IP isn't guaranteed to work correctly both because you might be using a VPN out Tor. Still possible using web browser extension. 2: Yes, the site can display all options right away, but are you willing to read all of them too? Why not? And again, browser extension can do it without bitcoin wallet - no need to connect unrelated things. 3: Detailed information is not necessary, nor does it have to be unprompted. It doesn't need to tell you more than which country you are in. It can even prompt you with a popup that has a slider that shows exactly how much information and of what kind you're about to share (including none, if that's your choice). 4: It doesn't need to share raw data. Take a look at anonymous credentials: http://www.zurich.ibm.com/idemix/ https://eprint.iacr.org/2013/622.pdf 5: It can wait for prompting until you add the first item to the cart. Everything you described is possible without Bitcoin involved - why would we mix unrelated things? P.S.: I believe in Unix philosophy. ;) -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/ ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Standardizing automatic pre-negotiation of transaction terms with BIP70? (Emulating Amazon one-click purchase at all merchants)
We can certainly imagine many BIP70 extensions, but for things like auto-filling shipping addresses, is the wallet the best place to do it? My browser already knows how to fill out this data in credit card forms, it would make sense to reuse that for Bitcoin. It sounds like you want a kind of Star-Trek negotiation agent thing, where your computer knows how to seek out the best deal because all the metadata is standardised. Such a thing would be an interesting project, but it's probably not best done in BIP70 given how it's deployed and used today. Rather, I'd suggest looking at the various HTML5 data standards which would allow merchants to advertise things like where they ship to in a machine readable and crawlable form. -- Dive into the World of Parallel Programming. The Go Parallel Website, sponsored by Intel and developed in partnership with Slashdot Media, is your hub for all things parallel software development, from weekly thought leadership blogs to news, videos, case studies, tutorials and more. Take a look and join the conversation now. http://goparallel.sourceforge.net/___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
