[Bitcoin-development] 0.9.0rc3 tagged
Haven't seen any message about this on the mailing list yet, so FYI: 0.9.0rc3 has been tagged. The significant change compared to rc2 is that the mining code fee policy now matches relay fee policy. Also a rare crash in the wallet code was fixed. There are some further small build system, documentation and GUI changes. Please start your gitian builds. Wladimir -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] 0.9.0rc3 tagged
Binaries for 0.9.0rc3 are available at: https://bitcoin.org/bin/0.9.0/test/ Please help sanity test. We will also need more 'gitian builders' for the final 0.9.0 release (Wladimir and I are the only builders so far for the rc3 binaries), so if you are running Linux or OSX and are willing to help please start up those virtual machines and start building dependencies. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting people to care. Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same boring shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end nothing happens. I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the change to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000), also mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc. Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated education effort. Wladimir -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Indeed. And users were crying for mBTC. Nobody was asking for µBTC. I must admit I was not aware if this thread. I just watched other wallets and at some point decided its time to switch to mBTC. On 03/13/2014 02:31 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: The standard has become mBTC and that's what was adopted. It's too late to try and sway this on a mailing list thread now. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:29 PM, Gary Rowe g.r...@froot.co.uk mailto:g.r...@froot.co.uk wrote: The MultiBit HD view is that this is a locale-sensitive presentation issue. As a result we offer a simple configuration panel giving pretty much every possible combination: icon, m+icon, μ+icon, BTC, mBTC, μBTC, XBT, mXBT, μXBT, sat along with settings for leading/trailing symbol, commas, spaces and points. This allows anyone to customise to meet their own needs beyond the offered default. We apply the NIST guidelines for representation of SI unit symbols (i.e no conversion to native language, no RTL giving icon+m etc). Right now MultiBit HD is configured to use m+icon taken from the Font Awesome icon set. However reading earlier posts it seems that μ+icon is more sensible. Let us know what you'd like. Links: m+icon screenshot: http://imgur.com/a/WCDoG Font Awesome icon: http://fortawesome.github.io/Font-Awesome/icon/btc/ NIST SI guidelines: http://physics.nist.gov/Pubs/SP811/sec07.html On 13 March 2014 12:56, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com mailto:jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. On Sun, Nov 17, 2013 at 9:28 PM, Wendell w...@grabhive.com mailto:w...@grabhive.com wrote: We're with uBTC too. Been waiting for the signal to do this, let's do it right after the fee system is improved. -wendell grabhive.com http://grabhive.com | twitter.com/hivewallet http://twitter.com/hivewallet | gpg: 6C0C9411 On Nov 15, 2013, at 6:03 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: Go straight to uBTC. Humans and existing computer systems handle numbers to the left of the decimals just fine (HK Dollars, Yen). The opposite is untrue (QuickBooks really does not like 3+ decimal places). -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net mailto:Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
vendor hat: on Based on this seeming consensus, BitPay was headed towards uBTC internally, and hoped to coordinate messaging and rollout with others in the community. Ah well, proceed apace, and Bitcoin Wallet will catch up, I suppose. Multiple unit changes negatively impact users, but we are already there :/ On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting people to care. Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same boring shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end nothing happens. I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the change to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000), also mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc. Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated education effort. Wladimir -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
BitPay should use mBTC as well. Unless you can point to any major wallets, exchanges or price watching sites that use uBTC by default? I think it is highly optimistic to assume we'll need another 1000x shift any time soon. By now Bitcoin isn't obscure anymore. Lots of people have heard about it. Getting from $1 to $1000 was amazing, but it was possible through huge media coverage. Getting from $1000 to $1,000,000 would take massive adoption of the kind Bitcoin isn't ready for yet. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 2:45 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: vendor hat: on Based on this seeming consensus, BitPay was headed towards uBTC internally, and hoped to coordinate messaging and rollout with others in the community. Ah well, proceed apace, and Bitcoin Wallet will catch up, I suppose. Multiple unit changes negatively impact users, but we are already there :/ On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting people to care. Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same boring shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end nothing happens. I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the change to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000), also mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc. Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated education effort. Wladimir -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: BitPay should use mBTC as well. Unless you can point to any major wallets, exchanges or price watching sites that use uBTC by default? I think it is highly optimistic to assume we'll need another 1000x shift any time soon. By now Bitcoin isn't obscure anymore. Lots of people have heard Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in this manner. mBTC is problematic because you do not need 1000x shift in value to produce annoyances for major accounting packages that are hard-limited to two decimal places. Further, spreadsheets hide information if formatting is configured naively -- that is, if formatting is configured for bitcoin the way it is configured for other currencies. Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result, popular software systems have been written with that assumption. -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
[Bitcoin-development] seanmcmaho...@gmail.com
-- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Jeff's arguments are understood and supported by those who worked in finance. Existing financial applications have often problems dealing with more than 2 decimals. People who work in finance are used to two decimals. Neither systems nor people in finance have a problem with large numbers though. For above practical reasons I am also for moving to a unit that equals 100 satoshi. I heard the name bit for it which I like. Regards, Tamás Blummer Founder, CEO Bits of Proof http://bitsofproof.com -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 03/13/2014 10:32 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:53 AM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: BitPay should use mBTC as well. Unless you can point to any major wallets, exchanges or price watching sites that use uBTC by default? I think it is highly optimistic to assume we'll need another 1000x shift any time soon. By now Bitcoin isn't obscure anymore. Lots of people have heard Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in this manner. mBTC is problematic because you do not need 1000x shift in value to produce annoyances for major accounting packages that are hard-limited to two decimal places. Further, spreadsheets hide information if formatting is configured naively -- that is, if formatting is configured for bitcoin the way it is configured for other currencies. Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result, popular software systems have been written with that assumption. I whole-heartedly agree with Jeff. micro-BTC was the way to go to end user confusion and make things easier for software systems which are designed to handle money (i.e. two decimal places). I also echo the sentiment about people being able to handle large numbers well. We've been working with Marty Zigman who's creating a Bitcoin plugin for NetSuite accounting platform, and he was already forced to switch micro-BTC long ago for exactly the reasons described above. I think the system will track up to 3 decimal places without causing all sorts of heartache and automatic rounding. Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if there's any way to revisit this, I'm there. We're just about to do another Armory release and could support this very easily. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 04:50:14PM +0100, Mike Hearn wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in this manner. That ship sailed months ago. If you wanted a big push for uBTC, then would have been the time. Though given that it'd have made lots of normal balances incredibly huge, perhaps it's a good thing that didn't happen. Also milli is a unit people encounter in daily life whereas micro isn't. Is it milli / micro / nano or milli / nano / micro? I bet a lot of people would get that wrong. I think the ship of hand-wavy, data-free logic sailed with 'money supply == 21 million', so why not enjoy the ride? If we care about real people and real use cases, then let's talk about indexing the money supply to some blockchain-observable value and add demurrage instead of of bikeshedding the color of the latest coat of paint. If you have to export to financial packages that can't handle fractional pennies, then by all means represent prices in whatever units you like for that purpose, but in software designed for ordinary people in everyday life mBTC is a pretty good fit. Besides, fractional pennies crop up in existing currencies too (the famous Verizon Math episode showed this), so if a financial package insists on rounding to 2dp then I guess it may sometimes do the wrong thing in some business cases already. Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result, popular software systems have been written with that assumption. Lots of people use currencies that don't have any fractional components at all ! So perhaps all prices should be denominated in satoshis to ensure that they're not surprised :) I'm surprised every time I pull up to a gas pump and the price is 3.24 per gallon. But I don't really care what the price is, as long as there's an e85 pump. If I could pay at the pump with bitcoin, I wouldn't even look at the price, I'd only care if my tank got filled up or if I have to drive slower to get better mileage. Hell, I'd have an app that would tell me what gas station to go to that got me the best miles per bitcoin based on where I actually wanted to go. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
cynic hat: on Every volatility bump messes up expectations of what a bitcoin is worth, so why are we bikeshedding uBTC vs mBTC? Just be done with it and do mBTC now, and plan uBTC for just after the next price spike to $10KUSD or whatever, and then plan on rolling back to mBTC when the price crashes from altcoin money supply inflation competition. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:45:54AM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: vendor hat: on Based on this seeming consensus, BitPay was headed towards uBTC internally, and hoped to coordinate messaging and rollout with others in the community. Ah well, proceed apace, and Bitcoin Wallet will catch up, I suppose. Multiple unit changes negatively impact users, but we are already there :/ On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting people to care. Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same boring shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end nothing happens. I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the change to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000), also mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc. Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated education effort. Wladimir -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' ho...@hozed.org 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soulgrid.coop Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 13.03.2014, at 17:14, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote: We've been working with Marty Zigman who's creating a Bitcoin plugin for NetSuite accounting platform, and he was already forced to switch micro-BTC long ago for exactly the reasons described above. I think the system will track up to 3 decimal places without causing all sorts of heartache and automatic rounding. Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if there's any way to revisit this, I'm there. We're just about to do another Armory release and could support this very easily. Not suprised that people dealing with real world finance problems and people who are not engineers come to the same conclusion. Welcome Alan! Why not add 'bit' as an option or even default to Armory? Regards, Tamas Blummer Founder, CEO Bits of Proof http://bitsofproof.com signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
BTW, its not like this would be the first time this was raised, instead the ship left while ignoring arguments. The idea of is up there for votes since March 2013 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=149150.0 and received the most votes. I remembered this last time on this list here: http://sourceforge.net/p/bitcoin/mailman/message/31640769/ Regards, Tamas Blummer Founder, CEO Bits of Proof http://bitsofproof.com signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 13 March 2014 16:50, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in this manner. That ship sailed months ago. If you wanted a big push for uBTC, then would have been the time. Though given that it'd have made lots of normal balances incredibly huge, perhaps it's a good thing that didn't happen. Also milli is a unit people encounter in daily life whereas micro isn't. Is it milli / micro / nano or milli / nano / micro? I bet a lot of people would get that wrong. If you have to export to financial packages that can't handle fractional pennies, then by all means represent prices in whatever units you like for that purpose, but in software designed for ordinary people in everyday life mBTC is a pretty good fit. Besides, fractional pennies crop up in existing currencies too (the famous Verizon Math episode showed this), so if a financial package insists on rounding to 2dp then I guess it may sometimes do the wrong thing in some business cases already. Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result, popular software systems have been written with that assumption. Lots of people use currencies that don't have any fractional components at all ! So perhaps all prices should be denominated in satoshis to ensure that they're not surprised :) The (number) line has to be drawn somewhere. Wallets are free to suppress more than 2dp of precision and actually Andreas' app lets you choose your preferred precision. So I think in the end it won't matter a whole lot, if the defaults end up being wrong people can change them until wallet authors catch up. +1 agree with Mike on everything A couple of points: 1. bitcoinity already switched to mbtc aka millitbits ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MilliBit ) and it was positively recieved, they got quite a few donations 2. If you watch Gavin's talk at the CFR he suggests the community comes to a consensus through implementations rather than top down decision making (If I understood correctly) I think it's up to wallet maintainers whether to switch the default. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Mike is making an assumption that is not necessary, which is the price of the most commonly used unit should be between is $.50 and $1000. The issue to revisit or not shouldn't require $1,000,000 Bitcoin price. Typing a ton of decimals is incredibly annoying. Doing the mental math in my head is annoying. Even if a cup of coffee costs 3.12345 mBTC, that's a lot more annoying than 3123.45 uBTC. The points that people liked mBTC better than BTC doesn't mean anything when comparing uBTC to mBTC. Many people just stopped thinking at the mBTC level, do not understand the implications involved in switching to uBTC, or even considered uBTC. The idea that we can just poll what people want to give them the ideal experience is also flawed, in that users often don't know what they want until they have it in front of them. There is basically no downside to uBTC, except a few places already switched to mBTC. For exchanges, which are dealing with decimals since they will do BTC/USD rather than the opposite, it might make sense for them to continue to use mBTC or BTC. For wallets and prices for users, especially when there are large decimals since the price is still based on more stable currencies, then converted to Bitcoin, let's switch to what is easiest. I haven't seen a single good argument for keeping it in mBTC (other than some people already did it). On the other hand, I've seen numerous great reasons for switching to uBTC. My two cents. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 11:39 AM, Melvin Carvalho melvincarva...@gmail.comwrote: On 13 March 2014 16:50, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 3:32 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Such hand-wavy, data-free logic is precisely why community coordination is preferred to random apps making random decisions in this manner. That ship sailed months ago. If you wanted a big push for uBTC, then would have been the time. Though given that it'd have made lots of normal balances incredibly huge, perhaps it's a good thing that didn't happen. Also milli is a unit people encounter in daily life whereas micro isn't. Is it milli / micro / nano or milli / nano / micro? I bet a lot of people would get that wrong. If you have to export to financial packages that can't handle fractional pennies, then by all means represent prices in whatever units you like for that purpose, but in software designed for ordinary people in everyday life mBTC is a pretty good fit. Besides, fractional pennies crop up in existing currencies too (the famous Verizon Math episode showed this), so if a financial package insists on rounding to 2dp then I guess it may sometimes do the wrong thing in some business cases already. Fundamentally, more than two decimal places tends to violate the Principle Of Least Astonishment with many humans, and as a result, popular software systems have been written with that assumption. Lots of people use currencies that don't have any fractional components at all ! So perhaps all prices should be denominated in satoshis to ensure that they're not surprised :) The (number) line has to be drawn somewhere. Wallets are free to suppress more than 2dp of precision and actually Andreas' app lets you choose your preferred precision. So I think in the end it won't matter a whole lot, if the defaults end up being wrong people can change them until wallet authors catch up. +1 agree with Mike on everything A couple of points: 1. bitcoinity already switched to mbtc aka millitbits ( https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/MilliBit ) and it was positively recieved, they got quite a few donations 2. If you watch Gavin's talk at the CFR he suggests the community comes to a consensus through implementations rather than top down decision making (If I understood correctly) I think it's up to wallet maintainers whether to switch the default. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Even if a cup of coffee costs 3.12345 mBTC, that's a lot more annoying than 3123.45 uBTC. This is subjective though. To me the first price looks like the price of a cup of coffee (or I just mentally double it). The second looks like the price of an expensive holiday. If users really find this so terrible, merchants have a simple solution: do the rounding before presenting the price. Then the price looks like 3.12 mBTC which is sort of what I'd expect it to look like. But some wallets already make digits 2dp smaller so visually you can get precision whilst still looking similar to what you might expect (this is what Bitcoin Wallet does). I haven't seen a single good argument for keeping it in mBTC (other than some people already did it). That's the good argument! -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
This ship may have already sailed, but... Using milli- and micro- notation for currency units is also not very well supported. Last time this thread was active, I believe there was a suggestion to use 1 XBT == 1 uBTC. This would bring us completely within the realm of supported behavior in accounting applications. On 03/13/2014 09:29 AM, Jeff Garzik wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote: Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if there's any way to revisit this, I'm there. We're just about to do another Armory release and could support this very easily. mBTC now just means the issue -will- be revisited in the future. Just a question of when, not if. People and software in various nations handle big numbers for small values (e.g. Yen) just fine. People and software do -not- handle extra decimal places well, field experience shows. vendor hat: on To roll out QuickBooks support --without converting any numbers, a key financial attribute-- mBTC is simply insufficient today, not in the future. I also argue that it is a security risk, as follows: To support accounting packages limited to 2 decimal places, decimal point conversion must be performed. This produces a situation where your accounting system shows numbers that do not visually match the numbers in the bitcoin software. That, in turn, making auditing more difficult, particularly for outsiders. Shipping with mBTC defaults was decidedly unwise, considering that -- like BTC -- it fails to solve existing, known problems that uBTC can solve, and considering the inevitable mBTC-uBTC switch. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:18 PM, Mark Friedenbach m...@monetize.io wrote: Using milli- and micro- notation for currency units is also not very well supported. Last time this thread was active, I believe there was a suggestion to use 1 XBT == 1 uBTC. This would bring us completely within the realm of supported behavior in accounting applications. Yes. That was in Tamas's recursive link, and also brought up on github by jcorgan. +1 -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
It certainly is not subjective, in that people are far more used to dealing with whole numbers than decimals. Try reading the first one, then reading the second one. Tell those numbers to someone else, have them write it down, and see how many people screw up the first vs. the second. This has nothing to do with whether it looks expensive. There are reasons for wanting the numbers to be higher as well, as evidenced by the number of Dogecoin enthusiasts who like having more, even if it doesn't matter. That part gets more subjective, but still favors micros in most cases. Sure, 3000 may sound like a lot, but if you have a lot more, it's all a different scale. If the argument is for keeping things based on what is already done, why even switch to millis? After all, everyone is used to full Bitcoins, why even change to millis? Whatever your arguments are there, for switching base bitcoins to millis, try to see why they fail at micros (other than the subjective argument that I'm used to decimal units of currency being worth a cup of coffee, even though numerous people all over the world don't have that conditioning). On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:13 PM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: Even if a cup of coffee costs 3.12345 mBTC, that's a lot more annoying than 3123.45 uBTC. This is subjective though. To me the first price looks like the price of a cup of coffee (or I just mentally double it). The second looks like the price of an expensive holiday. If users really find this so terrible, merchants have a simple solution: do the rounding before presenting the price. Then the price looks like 3.12 mBTC which is sort of what I'd expect it to look like. But some wallets already make digits 2dp smaller so visually you can get precision whilst still looking similar to what you might expect (this is what Bitcoin Wallet does). I haven't seen a single good argument for keeping it in mBTC (other than some people already did it). That's the good argument! -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On Thursday, March 13, 2014 4:37:02 PM slush wrote: Display based on locale. Please don't bring locale into this. Bitcoin has always been intentionally locale-independent (hence BTC using xxx,xxx,xxx.xx format even in locales which swap the commas and periods). Localising display makes different locales more or less incompatible at a human level, even if they use the same blockchain. Luke -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Well it looks like the consensus is to do it, instead of talking about it. I'm going to make sure we get uBTC into the next Armory release. Hmm - be careful with the word consensus here. A bunch of people on a mailing list does not make consensus ;) If you survey other wallets, you'll find most already switched to mBTC, that it took some effort to do so (look at the size of the patches for instance) and that probably, nobody is super-keen to change again so soon. So uBTC would make you different to most of the other wallets and services in wide usage. If Armory wants to do that, that's no problem, maybe it will be a competitive advantage - just saying, don't quote this thread as indicating some kind of community consensus. Wallets and services that are using mBTC (that I know of) blockchain.info MultiBit Bitcoin Wallet (Android) Hive Bitcoinity KnC Wallet (defaults to BTC but can be switched to mBTC in settings, uBTC not an option) Mullvad btcstore.eu Doing a google search for [bitcoin mBTC] and [bitcoin uBTC], the former has a bunch of sites and services with prices in mBTC. The latter only has faucets, as far as I can tell, which sort of makes sense. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 03/13/2014 01:51 PM, Mike Hearn wrote: Well it looks like the consensus is to do it, instead of talking about it. I'm going to make sure we get uBTC into the next Armory release. Hmm - be careful with the word consensus here. A bunch of people on a mailing list does not make consensus ;) If you survey other wallets, you'll find most already switched to mBTC, that it took some effort to do so (look at the size of the patches for instance) and that probably, nobody is super-keen to change again so soon. So uBTC would make you different to most of the other wallets and services in wide usage. If Armory wants to do that, that's no problem, maybe it will be a competitive advantage - just saying, don't quote this thread as indicating some kind of community consensus. Wallets and services that are using mBTC (that I know of) blockchain.info http://blockchain.info MultiBit Bitcoin Wallet (Android) Hive Bitcoinity KnC Wallet (defaults to BTC but can be switched to mBTC in settings, uBTC not an option) Mullvad btcstore.eu http://btcstore.eu Doing a google search for [bitcoin mBTC] and [bitcoin uBTC], the former has a bunch of sites and services with prices in mBTC. The latter only has faucets, as far as I can tell, which sort of makes sense. I actually was not aware that so many had already switched to mBTC. I guess it shows how much I use other wallets. You misunderstood my consensus comment. I was simply stating the consensus of debating on the mailing list endlessly is not as effective as doing it. Thus I was just going to do it and see who follows. But that also assumed there was not a critical mass who'd already switched -- I must admit I'm not so confident anymore... I am/so strongly opposed //to mBTC /compared to uBTC, I was ready to take a small leap of faith (with associated risks), to help push the consensus. Of course it would still remain configurable, but the default will make a big difference. -Alan -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 3/13/14, Troy Benjegerdes ho...@hozed.org wrote: cynic hat: on Every volatility bump messes up expectations of what a bitcoin is worth, so why are we bikeshedding uBTC vs mBTC? Just be done with it and do mBTC now, and plan uBTC for just after the next price spike to $10KUSD or whatever, and then plan on rolling back to mBTC when the price crashes from altcoin money supply inflation competition. No, even if bitcoin crashes to 1 usd you don't need to change back to BTC, you can keep the existing-accounting-tools friendly micro. That's the whole point, having one true only unit change. You would only need to change it if there was a sub-satoshi hardfork, which doesn't seem necessary anytime soon. On 3/13/14, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: I think it is highly optimistic to assume we'll need another 1000x shift any time soon. By now Bitcoin isn't obscure anymore. Lots of people have heard about it. Getting from $1 to $1000 was amazing, but it was possible through huge media coverage. Getting from $1000 to $1,000,000 would take massive adoption of the kind Bitcoin isn't ready for yet. We shouldn't make any assumptions about the future price of bitcoin to make the decision. On 3/13/14, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: Even if a cup of coffee costs 3.12345 mBTC, that's a lot more annoying than 3123.45 uBTC. This is subjective though. To me the first price looks like the price of a cup of coffee (or I just mentally double it). The second looks like the price of an expensive holiday. This sounds very US-centric to me. Aren't you thinking in usd? It won't look like an expensive holiday to, say, someone used to Viet Nam Dong (VND), Uzbekistani Som (UZS) or Mongolian Tugrik (MNT). http://coinmill.com/BTC_calculator.html#BTC= 0.00312345 People seem to like mBTC is just an ad populum fallacy: millions of flies can actually be wrong. Also you haven't showed them micros, maybe they like it too. So the only valid argument I've heard in favor of mBTC so far is some wallets/services are doing it wrong already. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
You would only need to change it if there was a sub-satoshi hardfork, which doesn't seem necessary anytime soon. + We shouldn't make any assumptions about the future price of bitcoin to make the decision. Hmmm ;) Didn't you just make an assumption about the future price? This sounds very US-centric to me. Aren't you thinking in usd? The currencies I'm familiar with are CHF, USD, EUR and GBP, which all have roughly similar values. I guess such currencies make up the bulk of the Bitcoin userbase at the moment. People seem to like mBTC is just an ad populum fallacy: millions of flies can actually be wrong. Also you haven't showed them micros, maybe they like it too. Saying it's already popular and would take work to change is not really a fallacy now, is it? But anyway, this is getting silly. You don't have to convince me. Go visit all the services I listed above, plus all the ones I didn't find in my five minutes of searching, and convince them they're wrong like the flies and switching is the best use of their time :o -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Another vote in support of uBTC. I made my position clear in May of last year. Since then, Dogecoin has essentially PROVEN the psychological value of a low-valued large-balance currency. (From: https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=220322.msg2334059#msg2334059) The whole unit change seems so disruptive and difficult to coordinate now -- do we really want to have to deal with another one later when there are way more people to try to coordinate? I really think we should look to the endgame and figure out where we want to be. I'd propose moving to uB (micro-bitcoin = 1e-6) as the standard unit now and forever. For now, it can be referred to as uB or uBTC, but over time, once it's ubiquitous, it should just be called a bitcoin. Because the smallest unit is the satoshi (1e-8), this means uB-denominated prices would get 2 decimal places maximum, which is the most that any consumer wants to deal with anyway. At the same time, I'd propose inverting the exchange rate, so instead of quoting uB/USD = .00013, it would be quoted as USD/uB = 7692. This is exactly the same way Yen are quoted relative to USD (USDJPY = 100.66), and is also the same way other private virtual currencies such as WoW gold are quoted. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 11:29 AM, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: You would only need to change it if there was a sub-satoshi hardfork, which doesn't seem necessary anytime soon. + We shouldn't make any assumptions about the future price of bitcoin to make the decision. Hmmm ;) Didn't you just make an assumption about the future price? This sounds very US-centric to me. Aren't you thinking in usd? The currencies I'm familiar with are CHF, USD, EUR and GBP, which all have roughly similar values. I guess such currencies make up the bulk of the Bitcoin userbase at the moment. People seem to like mBTC is just an ad populum fallacy: millions of flies can actually be wrong. Also you haven't showed them micros, maybe they like it too. Saying it's already popular and would take work to change is not really a fallacy now, is it? But anyway, this is getting silly. You don't have to convince me. Go visit all the services I listed above, plus all the ones I didn't find in my five minutes of searching, and convince them they're wrong like the flies and switching is the best use of their time :o -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
I agree with you Jeff. The unit switch needs to happen once and once only, but that is exactly why I said the defaults really need to change in Bitcoin-Qt since that is still the main reference implementation and it will influence others. Bitpay could also take the lead here and make the switch to their defaults. That would greatly assist the uBTC movement. Regardless of what anyone says, Bitcoin-Qt is still the main reference implementation and the best way to encourage a change in the community at large is for the default units to be changed here. Core devs can surely garner enough consensus among themselves to accept and merge a PR to that effect. That will send a message, more than anything else that can be done. My two satoshi. Drak On 13 March 2014 16:29, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 12:14 PM, Alan Reiner etothe...@gmail.com wrote: Of course, as Mike said, this ship may have already sailed, but if there's any way to revisit this, I'm there. We're just about to do another Armory release and could support this very easily. mBTC now just means the issue -will- be revisited in the future. Just a question of when, not if. People and software in various nations handle big numbers for small values (e.g. Yen) just fine. People and software do -not- handle extra decimal places well, field experience shows. vendor hat: on To roll out QuickBooks support --without converting any numbers, a key financial attribute-- mBTC is simply insufficient today, not in the future. I also argue that it is a security risk, as follows: To support accounting packages limited to 2 decimal places, decimal point conversion must be performed. This produces a situation where your accounting system shows numbers that do not visually match the numbers in the bitcoin software. That, in turn, making auditing more difficult, particularly for outsiders. Shipping with mBTC defaults was decidedly unwise, considering that -- like BTC -- it fails to solve existing, known problems that uBTC can solve, and considering the inevitable mBTC-uBTC switch. -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
On 3/13/14, Mike Hearn m...@plan99.net wrote: You would only need to change it if there was a sub-satoshi hardfork, which doesn't seem necessary anytime soon. + We shouldn't make any assumptions about the future price of bitcoin to make the decision. Hmmm ;) Didn't you just make an assumption about the future price? You can just remove my assertion about the likeliness of the need of sub-satoshis and the main claim still stands. The currencies I'm familiar with are CHF, USD, EUR and GBP, which all have roughly similar values. I guess such currencies make up the bulk of the Bitcoin userbase at the moment. Fair enough, not US-centric but western-centric then. In any case the 3000 micros will look like expensive claim is still very relative. People seem to like mBTC is just an ad populum fallacy: millions of flies can actually be wrong. Also you haven't showed them micros, maybe they like it too. Saying it's already popular and would take work to change is not really a fallacy now, is it? No, it's not. That's what I said the current adoption by some wallets and services was the only valid argument immediately after dismantling the actual fallacy. Did you missed that last sentence or are you intentionally using a straw man argument? In summary, yes, that's point is valid, I'm not saying it isn't. I just wanted to keep us away from the rest argument but pointing out they are not logic. I repeat, that's the ONLY valid argument I've heard so far. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] moving the default display to mbtc
Second this comment. A change like this so soon after mt gox debacle would be one more sign of bitcoins 'instability' for skeptics and average folk who read only headlines. In general, it seems some people are looking to try and change the publics mental price of BTC which is more of a non-technical challenge. Gavin On 14/03/2014, at 12:21 am, Troy Benjegerdes ho...@hozed.org wrote: cynic hat: on Every volatility bump messes up expectations of what a bitcoin is worth, so why are we bikeshedding uBTC vs mBTC? Just be done with it and do mBTC now, and plan uBTC for just after the next price spike to $10KUSD or whatever, and then plan on rolling back to mBTC when the price crashes from altcoin money supply inflation competition. On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 09:45:54AM -0400, Jeff Garzik wrote: vendor hat: on Based on this seeming consensus, BitPay was headed towards uBTC internally, and hoped to coordinate messaging and rollout with others in the community. Ah well, proceed apace, and Bitcoin Wallet will catch up, I suppose. Multiple unit changes negatively impact users, but we are already there :/ On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 9:34 AM, Wladimir laa...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Mar 13, 2014 at 1:56 PM, Jeff Garzik jgar...@bitpay.com wrote: Resurrecting this topic. Bitcoin Wallet moved to mBTC several weeks ago, which was disappointing -- it sounded like the consensus was uBTC, and moving to uBTC later --which will happen-- may result in additional user confusion, thanks to yet another decimal place transition. I've kind of given up getting any consensus about this, or even getting people to care. Everyone agrees that a decimal shift would be good, but it's the same boring shed painting discussion every time on how many decimals. In the end nothing happens. I can't really blame Andreas for finally taking action and making the change to mBTC. People in the community are familiar with mBTC because some exchanges and price sites used mBTC (at least for a while when $1000), also mBTC seems to be catching on on reddit etc. Moving to muBTC (which in itself would be better because it is the final unit change ever needed without hardfork) would require more coordinated education effort. Wladimir -- Jeff Garzik Bitcoin core developer and open source evangelist BitPay, Inc. https://bitpay.com/ -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Troy Benjegerdes 'da hozer' ho...@hozed.org 7 elements earth::water::air::fire::mind::spirit::soulgrid.coop Never pick a fight with someone who buys ink by the barrel, nor try buy a hacker who makes money by the megahash -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech ___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
[Bitcoin-development] Physical key / edge detection software and PIN to generate private key
BIP: XX Title: Physical key / edge detection software and PIN to generate a Bitcoin private key Author: Jack Scott Status: Idea Type: Standard Track Created: 13-3-2014 Abstract: A method is proposed to generate a Bitcoin private key by using a physical key in conjunction with image recognition software and a PIN. Use edge detection software applied to incoming video feed to convert the shape of a physical key into an equation that describes the key. The hash of the key's equation plus a user generated five digit pin can then be used to create a Bitcoin private key. -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
Re: [Bitcoin-development] Physical key / edge detection software and PIN to generate private key
On Fri, Mar 14, 2014 at 3:38 AM, Jack Scott jack.scott.pub...@gmail.comwrote: A method is proposed to generate a Bitcoin private key by using a physical key in conjunction with image recognition software and a PIN. Use edge detection software applied to incoming video feed to convert the shape of a physical key into an equation that describes the key. The hash of the key's equation plus a user generated five digit pin can then be used to create a Bitcoin private key. Some practical nits: - Physical keys are vulnerable to photography-based reproduction attacks. That gets even worse if you use them to identify to a digital system as you can leave out the tiresome manual reproduction step. - The output from computer vision algorithms is notoriously noisy. If you use that as input for hashing a private key, it may become hard/impossible to reproduce (also, physical objects may deform over time). Wladimir -- Learn Graph Databases - Download FREE O'Reilly Book Graph Databases is the definitive new guide to graph databases and their applications. Written by three acclaimed leaders in the field, this first edition is now available. Download your free book today! http://p.sf.net/sfu/13534_NeoTech___ Bitcoin-development mailing list Bitcoin-development@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/bitcoin-development
