Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment
Ya know Cecil, I received some startling advice on raising these sheep that came from a non-sheep person. He said that when I obtained exotic animals (and whether we like it or not, we are dealing with an exotic animal), it became my responsibility to know more about them than anybody on the planet. Otherwise they would die, and it would be my fault - felony ignorance. He had a clarity of insight that amazed me. Without knowing much about the sheep, he summed it up...They are out of their natural environment, they are offered feed they may not be adapted to, they are not acclimatized (very few of my remaining sheep come from this area), they are a combination of opposing reproductive characteristics. He told me I had to know more about them than the vet...I had to know more about them than anyone else in the area...because if I was going to raise them successfully, **I** was going to have to adapt to **them** in order to work through the process of adapting my particular flock to my circumstances. As we - or I - wade through the challenges of understanding what I can do with them and what I cannot, we have to keep in mind that Industry is pushing Livestock producers to absorb the waste products of ethanol production. They do this by publishing a nutritional analysis and letting us find out for ourselves if the physical body can utilize foodlike substances not found in nature. You can just look into any feedlot and see the sickness that alternative feeds with apparently high nutritional profiles wreak on the animals there. Ag has always been a dumping ground for industrial waste. My farrier raises pigs and he says that distillers grains and corn gluten meal, et al are not successful for raising pigs. Why??? It has the nutrition, but for some reason, the pigs can't use that nutrition. It's like me finding out the fatal flaw in beet pulp...first of all I propose that the animals do not have the gut capacity for large quantities of forage...and then I attempt to feed them beet pulp, which has nearly the same nutritive value as corn, but is enormously bulky. The feed value may be the same, but the way the body handles it is what defines whether it will be a successful feed. As an interesting side note, beet pulp is so expensive these days because it's being used in pet foods. Dogs are not adapted to beet pulp, but it has high nutritional value...see where I'm going with this?? What kind of food allergies are going to crop up in the next generation of pets? Better market for steroids. Another interesting side note is that the Chinese have tried putting some nordic flounder genes in beet pulp to get them to grow in colder climates. I don't mind if the dog eats flounder, but I'm not too keen about feeding a flounder-sugar beet bastard to my sheep. And I have no idea where my beet pulp originates. You seem to be experiencing the same discouraging results with an alternative feed - the blackbellies refuse to adapt to it. So...??? The bottom line is do you have the financial means to absorb the experiments, while you continue to adapt your sheep, or do you just sensibly dispose of the poor doers and build your flock according to what makes the most economic sense. I have the luxury of not expecting any serious income from the sheep, but I AM getting tired of absorbing the losses. I desperately wanted to be a 100% grass farmer, but now I see that dream slipping away. My problem is, I am too stubborn to give up the notion that I can adapt my registered flock to meet my expectation (I have a few that never disappoint me). It's getting to be an expensive hobby though. I love the lamb so much, I do not want to risk outcrossing. I have even been thinking about infusing some polled blood into the flock (these would never be registered as AB), to see if I could improve reproductive performance without going outside the blackbelly. Actually my best performing lamb this year is a ram lamb with tiny little horn buds - he's almost smooth headed. Where did that come from in a flock with very good horns!! What's the connection? The ewe, a registered AB, milked like a cow and has a pedigree of horns. My dilemma is now, whether several more years of selection for a higher plane of performance within my AB flock will be repaid in value added to the sale of proven breeding stock, or if I should just stick to meat production. There is little point in continuing to register animals if the goal isn't to improve them. It's a big problem, because I would like to some day make exceptional quality breeding stock available to other producers, but not for $45 a lamb...more like $450 a lamb. If I give up on that, I lose half my interest in my work. But in order to improve them, I need to understand down to the molecular level, what makes them tick. White or lighter coloring might come from an infusion of domestic blood that could carry more
Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment
Barb, You stated My problem is, I am too stubborn to give up the notion that I can adapt my registered flock to meet my expectation (I have a few that never disappoint me). It's getting to be an expensive hobby though. I love the lamb so much, I do not want to risk outcrossing. I have even been thinking about infusing some polled blood into the flock (these would never be registered as AB), to see if I could improve reproductive performance without going outside the blackbelly. Actually my best performing lamb this year is a ram lamb with tiny little horn buds - he's almost smooth headed. Where did that come from in a flock with very good horns!! What's the connection? The ewe, a registered AB, milked like a cow and has a pedigree of horns. My dilemma is now, whether several more years of selection for a higher plane of performance within my AB flock will be repaid in value added to the sale of proven breeding stock, or if I should just stick to meat production. There is little point in continuing to register animals if the goal isn't to improve them. It's a big problem, because I would like to some day make exceptional quality breeding stock available to other producers, but not for $45 a lamb...more like $450 a lamb. If I give up on that, I lose half my interest in my work. Don't feel like you are the only breeder with these questions. One thing I would like to point out is that genetic diversity produces better animals. One thing I do remember from my genetics classes at the university is one amazing statement the professor made. Without 30 different base lines it is impossible to keep a blood line pure. This is a common theme among geneticists all though the number of base lines vary. Nearly all of the current AB and BB lines are from only 2 different base lines. Without some out-crossing, it is nearly impossible to keep the breed alive. We are using BB and AB together to produce better quality and size. Even within these two lines, there have been out-crossing before we started with them. The influence of previous breeders with Rambouillet and Mouflon is quite prevalent in all the flocks we have visited over the years. The pictures we have of Caribbean BB, although similar, have more color variations that what is prevalent here in the United States. Sharon Wintermute ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment
Barb, I for one like the research you do. Although it doe not always apply for our environment, it is of interest so we know not to go that route. We have considered planting one field in turnips since the sheep some to love them so much. But it is cost prohibitive. Lately it seems that the ax has been swung towards Mark and I so much, we are tired and basically are trying to stay out of it. Sometimes I just can't seem to do that. We have over 500 sheep so I know exactly what you are going through. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb Lee Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:54 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment Sharon, If my current thinking continues to reel out on this same track, I visualize either going to a breed where the groundwork is already done (what's the fun in that), or hm..what other word is there...hybridizing? My greatest disappointment at this point is that I feel I am talking to a mud fence. There is neither reinforcement, nor opposition. I've put my neck on the proverbial chopping block with all this stuff I'm talking about. I've handed a lot of people the axe. Why isn't anybody at least taking a swing? What's the point if nobody is willing to contribute? For all my talk, I know full well that without the genetic input from other well founded breeding programs, my own feeble attempt at breed improvement is doomed. Barb - Original Message - From: The Wintermutes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment Barb, You stated My problem is, I am too stubborn to give up the notion that I can adapt my registered flock to meet my expectation (I have a few that never disappoint me). It's getting to be an expensive hobby though. I love the lamb so much, I do not want to risk outcrossing. I have even been thinking about infusing some polled blood into the flock (these would never be registered as AB), to see if I could improve reproductive performance without going outside the blackbelly. Actually my best performing lamb this year is a ram lamb with tiny little horn buds - he's almost smooth headed. Where did that come from in a flock with very good horns!! What's the connection? The ewe, a registered AB, milked like a cow and has a pedigree of horns. My dilemma is now, whether several more years of selection for a higher plane of performance within my AB flock will be repaid in value added to the sale of proven breeding stock, or if I should just stick to meat production. There is little point in continuing to register animals if the goal isn't to improve them. It's a big problem, because I would like to some day make exceptional quality breeding stock available to other producers, but not for $45 a lamb...more like $450 a lamb. If I give up on that, I lose half my interest in my work. Don't feel like you are the only breeder with these questions. One thing I would like to point out is that genetic diversity produces better animals. One thing I do remember from my genetics classes at the university is one amazing statement the professor made. Without 30 different base lines it is impossible to keep a blood line pure. This is a common theme among geneticists all though the number of base lines vary. Nearly all of the current AB and BB lines are from only 2 different base lines. Without some out-crossing, it is nearly impossible to keep the breed alive. We are using BB and AB together to produce better quality and size. Even within these two lines, there have been out-crossing before we started with them. The influence of previous breeders with Rambouillet and Mouflon is quite prevalent in all the flocks we have visited over the years. The pictures we have of Caribbean BB, although similar, have more color variations that what is prevalent here in the United States. Sharon Wintermute ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info ___ This message is from the Blackbelly mailing list Visit the list's homepage at %http://www.blackbellysheep.info
Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment
I only have about 140 if I count the lambs. However, since the market will not allow me to receive what they are worth, and I did not get the research grant for rotational grazing to improve pastures, then I will have to thin out the flock. What will stay will be the ones that remain healthy and require no assistance. Unless I can market them through a website that I am trying to get set up. If I can market them as pets and 4 legged lawnmowers, then the situation may change. Barb: I really appreciate the efforts you have made and the amount of time you have committed to testing the various changes you have made. Personally I rely too much on memory. I worked in a paper intensive agency for 30 years and just am burned out on that paperwork stuff. Cecil The Wintermutes wrote: Barb, I for one like the research you do. Although it doe not always apply for our environment, it is of interest so we know not to go that route. We have considered planting one field in turnips since the sheep some to love them so much. But it is cost prohibitive. Lately it seems that the ax has been swung towards Mark and I so much, we are tired and basically are trying to stay out of it. Sometimes I just can't seem to do that. We have over 500 sheep so I know exactly what you are going through. Sharon -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Barb Lee Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 1:54 PM To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment Sharon, If my current thinking continues to reel out on this same track, I visualize either going to a breed where the groundwork is already done (what's the fun in that), or hm..what other word is there...hybridizing? My greatest disappointment at this point is that I feel I am talking to a mud fence. There is neither reinforcement, nor opposition. I've put my neck on the proverbial chopping block with all this stuff I'm talking about. I've handed a lot of people the axe. Why isn't anybody at least taking a swing? What's the point if nobody is willing to contribute? For all my talk, I know full well that without the genetic input from other well founded breeding programs, my own feeble attempt at breed improvement is doomed. Barb - Original Message - From: The Wintermutes [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 11:17 AM Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment Barb, You stated My problem is, I am too stubborn to give up the notion that I can adapt my registered flock to meet my expectation (I have a few that never disappoint me). It's getting to be an expensive hobby though. I love the lamb so much, I do not want to risk outcrossing. I have even been thinking about infusing some polled blood into the flock (these would never be registered as AB), to see if I could improve reproductive performance without going outside the blackbelly. Actually my best performing lamb this year is a ram lamb with tiny little horn buds - he's almost smooth headed. Where did that come from in a flock with very good horns!! What's the connection? The ewe, a registered AB, milked like a cow and has a pedigree of horns. My dilemma is now, whether several more years of selection for a higher plane of performance within my AB flock will be repaid in value added to the sale of proven breeding stock, or if I should just stick to meat production. There is little point in continuing to register animals if the goal isn't to improve them. It's a big problem, because I would like to some day make exceptional quality breeding stock available to other producers, but not for $45 a lamb...more like $450 a lamb. If I give up on that, I lose half my interest in my work. Don't feel like you are the only breeder with these questions. One thing I would like to point out is that genetic diversity produces better animals. One thing I do remember from my genetics classes at the university is one amazing statement the professor made. Without 30 different base lines it is impossible to keep a blood line pure. This is a common theme among geneticists all though the number of base lines vary. Nearly all of the current AB and BB lines are from only 2 different base lines. Without some out-crossing, it is nearly impossible to keep the breed alive. We are using BB and AB together to produce better quality and size. Even within these two lines, there have been out-crossing before we started with them. The influence of previous breeders with Rambouillet and Mouflon is quite prevalent in all the flocks we have visited over the years. The pictures we have of Caribbean BB, although similar, have more color variations that what is prevalent here in the United States. Sharon Wintermute
Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment
Dear Barb, This last email you sent regarding finding out what makes the ABB sheep tick is right on. I recently wrote to a gentleman in the Bahamas who has a flock of BB and I asked him how he mananged his sheep. He did not give me a direct answer but told me that my sheep are wild. I was not sure exactly what he meant by that. What he was referring to, is that the ABB was bred for hunting purposes and it has not been too many years that the ABB has been embraced by shepherds such as yourself. I am considered a newbie since it has been less than 2 years of owning my small flock. What I did notice is the goat-like behavior of these sheep. How many wool sheep do you see standing on their hind legs to strip leaves from trees? I had a couple Suffolk for a short time because my husband wanted to cross the Suffolk with one of my rams. If you had a chance to read the article I wrote for the membership, I mentioned that I periodically let my ewes out to graze in the front and side yard. The Suffolk ate the fallen leaves but did not try to eat the leaves off the trees nor did they strip bark off the trees. My ABB flock now head out to eat the fallen branches off the willow tree and then they go out front to eat the branches off the shrubs. MAYBE if they get bored they will literally graze on the grass but that is not their first choice. In the spring I can't let them out because the eat all the tender shoots off the trees and shrubs and they bounce around from one shrub to the other especially if one thinks a gold mine has been hit. Yes, mine mostly get a small amount of grain twice a day and alfalfa but I also give them veggie scraps which they love. I used to throw away the hulls from the pistachio nuts I eat but they love them too. They also love green weeds and dried up ole tumbleweeds. I give them all of this. I think we have to do the best we can within our means and areas that we are growing these sheep. You are doing your very best. I also culled heavy last year for wool and if a ewe does not take care of her lambs then she will go down the road. In the wild it would be survival of the fittest. I don't believe there is a right way or wrong way to feed our sheep, we all just have to do our best and be critical enough to know when to cull. If there is an undesirable trait, no matter how sweet the animal is, than maybe it is best to cull them from the breeding line. If the animal is sweet and someone would like to have it for pet than it is a win-win for you and the sheep. I do believe that these are not just grass sheep like the woolies. I think these sheep would have a blast if they were able to run in thickets and be allowed to forage on the plants and shrubs in the thickets. I wonder if they like kudzu that grows in the Southeast? They might be great for hire to clear areas thick with kudzu and other undesirable plants. I have read articles regarding goats for hire that do this very thing. We have however, fenced in our sheep and so they must survive on what the shepherd gives them. Just my thoughts.. Cathy Mayton LeapN' Lambs On Jan 21, 2008 10:52 AM, Barb Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ya know Cecil, I received some startling advice on raising these sheep that came from a non-sheep person. He said that when I obtained exotic animals (and whether we like it or not, we are dealing with an exotic animal), it became my responsibility to know more about them than anybody on the planet. Otherwise they would die, and it would be my fault - felony ignorance. He had a clarity of insight that amazed me. Without knowing much about the sheep, he summed it up...They are out of their natural environment, they are offered feed they may not be adapted to, they are not acclimatized (very few of my remaining sheep come from this area), they are a combination of opposing reproductive characteristics. He told me I had to know more about them than the vet...I had to know more about them than anyone else in the area...because if I was going to raise them successfully, **I** was going to have to adapt to **them** in order to work through the process of adapting my particular flock to my circumstances. As we - or I - wade through the challenges of understanding what I can do with them and what I cannot, we have to keep in mind that Industry is pushing Livestock producers to absorb the waste products of ethanol production. They do this by publishing a nutritional analysis and letting us find out for ourselves if the physical body can utilize foodlike substances not found in nature. You can just look into any feedlot and see the sickness that alternative feeds with apparently high nutritional profiles wreak on the animals there. Ag has always been a dumping ground for industrial waste. My farrier raises pigs and he says that distillers grains and corn gluten meal, et al are not successful for raising pigs. Why??? It has the nutrition, but
Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment
Dear Cathy and Barb. I don't often participate in these discussions because I am a newbie with less than two years experience and my flock is very small. We lost nearly half of our original flock because we did not recognize that we were purchasing BB that had become undernourished. We LEARNED. Also we LEARNED that the same lead ram had been used for several years - too much inbreeding - problems. Cathy, I don't know what part of the country you are in but we live in West Texas. I have made the same observations that you have. If I let them in my yard I can depend on them to trim up my rose bush, pecan trees and anything else they can get their mouths on. This is the first lambing we have had that appears to be a success. We got rid of the lead ram and brought in two other young rams. The new rams are true hair sheep ( we are prejudiced - we don't care for the wool). The so far have produced the most beautiful little lambs, and are they hearty and healthy!! This is a hobby - they aren't registered. But we will be culling big time in about 4 weeks - too many sheep - not enough pasture. I love reading the comments and input. Barb, you are to be congratulated and commended for advancing our education in the world of the ABB. Please don't stop expanding (you sometimes refer to as rambling). You and all others have been instrumental in my learning about this wonderful animals. Linda Cook - Original Message - From: Cathy Mayton [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: blackbelly@lists.blackbellysheep.info Sent: Monday, January 21, 2008 4:02 PM Subject: Re: [Blackbelly] The Beet Pulp Experiment Dear Barb, This last email you sent regarding finding out what makes the ABB sheep tick is right on. I recently wrote to a gentleman in the Bahamas who has a flock of BB and I asked him how he mananged his sheep. He did not give me a direct answer but told me that my sheep are wild. I was not sure exactly what he meant by that. What he was referring to, is that the ABB was bred for hunting purposes and it has not been too many years that the ABB has been embraced by shepherds such as yourself. I am considered a newbie since it has been less than 2 years of owning my small flock. What I did notice is the goat-like behavior of these sheep. How many wool sheep do you see standing on their hind legs to strip leaves from trees? I had a couple Suffolk for a short time because my husband wanted to cross the Suffolk with one of my rams. If you had a chance to read the article I wrote for the membership, I mentioned that I periodically let my ewes out to graze in the front and side yard. The Suffolk ate the fallen leaves but did not try to eat the leaves off the trees nor did they strip bark off the trees. My ABB flock now head out to eat the fallen branches off the willow tree and then they go out front to eat the branches off the shrubs. MAYBE if they get bored they will literally graze on the grass but that is not their first choice. In the spring I can't let them out because the eat all the tender shoots off the trees and shrubs and they bounce around from one shrub to the other especially if one thinks a gold mine has been hit. Yes, mine mostly get a small amount of grain twice a day and alfalfa but I also give them veggie scraps which they love. I used to throw away the hulls from the pistachio nuts I eat but they love them too. They also love green weeds and dried up ole tumbleweeds. I give them all of this. I think we have to do the best we can within our means and areas that we are growing these sheep. You are doing your very best. I also culled heavy last year for wool and if a ewe does not take care of her lambs then she will go down the road. In the wild it would be survival of the fittest. I don't believe there is a right way or wrong way to feed our sheep, we all just have to do our best and be critical enough to know when to cull. If there is an undesirable trait, no matter how sweet the animal is, than maybe it is best to cull them from the breeding line. If the animal is sweet and someone would like to have it for pet than it is a win-win for you and the sheep. I do believe that these are not just grass sheep like the woolies. I think these sheep would have a blast if they were able to run in thickets and be allowed to forage on the plants and shrubs in the thickets. I wonder if they like kudzu that grows in the Southeast? They might be great for hire to clear areas thick with kudzu and other undesirable plants. I have read articles regarding goats for hire that do this very thing. We have however, fenced in our sheep and so they must survive on what the shepherd gives them. Just my thoughts.. Cathy Mayton LeapN' Lambs On Jan 21, 2008 10:52 AM, Barb Lee [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ya know Cecil, I received some startling advice on raising these sheep that came from a non-sheep
