RE: Plonkworthy?
--- Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Behalf Of Deborah Harrell William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Religion is extremist by nature. YAWN stre-e-etch curl up comfortably under the lilac bush Heretic Lutheran Deist Maru :) Why Lilac? :) Perhaps Gandalf's or the hobbits' pipes were made of lilac: http://www.devonian.ualberta.ca/pwatch/lilac.htm Syringa' originates from the Greek syrinx', meaning hollow stem. One of the first common names for Syringa vulgaris in English was pipe tree', because the straight stems made excellent pipes. The stem was used by ancient Greek doctors to inject medications into their patients... It's an indicator plant: ...Both plants and insects develop in a sequence in spring, in response to temperature. Because of this, the bloom time of lilac or other key indicator plants can be used to predict the best time for certain farming activies. In Montana, alfalfa is usually ready for its first cut one month after lilacs start to flower. To get rid of alfalfa weevil, Montana farmers do an early cut of alfalfa hay within 10 days of first lilac bloom. This eliminates the weevil eggs before they hatch. In Southern Alberta the saying is be ready to cut hay 40 days after the lilac flowers. When the lilacs reach full bloom is the best time to treat birch leaf miner on birch trees, gypsy moth larvae on deciduous trees, and lilac borer on lilac... It travels well and is hardy: http://www.frontrangeliving.com/garden/Lilacs.htm ...A favorite in Thomas Jeffersons garden and a tough plant that journeyed to Colorado with the pioneers, old-fashioned lavender lilacs still can be found on abandoned homesteads, along with Harison's yellow rose and heirloom bearded irises. None is native to North America but all have adapted to conditions in the West... But most of all, I loved it as a child: the marvelous odor from the lavender blooms, how perfect a secret meeting place the lilac thicket on the crest of the hill made, playing at Mowgli peering out from the jungle to the houses below... My cats like to hang out under the lilac bush out back; it's cool, shady, and protects from sharp bird eyes as well as silly dog noses. ;) Debbi __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Plonkworthy?
At 11:35 PM 6/9/03 -0700, Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Behalf Of Deborah Harrell William T Goodall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Religion is extremist by nature. YAWN stre-e-etch curl up comfortably under the lilac bush Heretic Lutheran Deist Maru :) Why Lilac? :) Perhaps Gandalf's or the hobbits' pipes were made of lilac: http://www.devonian.ualberta.ca/pwatch/lilac.htm Syringa' originates from the Greek syrinx', meaning hollow stem. One of the first common names for Syringa vulgaris in English was pipe tree', because the straight stems made excellent pipes. The stem was used by ancient Greek doctors to inject medications into their patients... The hemlock plant also has hollow stems . . . -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
In a message dated 6/9/2003 10:39:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I remember one about a guy playing golf in Japan the day after a night when he visited a lady of the evening . . . -- Ronn! :) And his boss says Whadda ya mean I've got the wrong Brin-L? William Taylor - Zen rimshoot. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
In a message dated 6/9/2003 10:59:34 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: curl up comfortably under the lilac bush Heretic Lutheran Deist Maru :) Why Lilac? :) Why not? ;-) Not Another Eliza Emulation Maru -- Ronn! :) But gringo the lilacs, oh. William Taylor - Etymology Reference Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
All Along Iraqi Artificats Were Safe and Sound
There are only 33 pieces from the main collections that are unaccounted for, George said. Not 47. Some more pieces have been returned. Museum staff members had taken some of the more valuable items home and are now returning them. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A32129-2003Jun8.html ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Iraqi Officer Talks About WMD's
The point was, the Iraqis kept the knowledge, he explained during a lengthy interview Friday in which he offered tantalizing details of secret programs. But U.S. weapons hunters will never find anything here. Only oil. http://www.latimes.com/news/custom/showcase/la-fg-wmd8jun08.story ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
The Historic Preservation Act Should Fund Churches
Here's a good argument on why some taxpayer monery should go to Churches: http://www.opinionjournal.com/la/?id=110003605 ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Farts Re: World cancer death rates
From this morning's mail: quote --- HILARIOUS Farting President Bush Doll --- Go ahead - pull my finger.. you'll hear things like: *(FART!) That's what I call a flatulation proclamation! *(FART!) Hey, Sadaam - Here's a weapon of mass destruction! Plus more! Even includes the hilarious Farts and Tripes song! http://www.gagsplus.com/a.php?i=1003sub=rayprezp=farting/prez.shtml /quote No Gas Shortage During This Administration Maru -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Br!n story in Analog....
On Sunday, June 8, 2003, at 12:22 am, Steve Sloan II wrote: Gary Nunn wrote: Sorry if someone already covered this Just picked up the July/August issue of Analog and it has a story by DB in it. I have not read it yet so I am not sure if it is a new or old story. Yup, A Professor at Harvard. I wasn't even sure what made it SF until the last page or so, but the idea is a very cool one. It is quite amusing :) -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ A bad thing done for a good cause is still a bad thing. It's why so few people slap their political opponents. That, and because slapping looks so silly. - Randy Cohen. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Personally, I don't like to associate myself with groups that have such a bad history and such a large number of irrational people. Fen, frex. ;-) Oh, like the Disclave Flooding Incident perpetrators? (If you haven't heard the story, the moral is, if you're going to play bondage games in the con hotel, DON'T use a sprinkler as a tie-down point. Knowing that, and knowing about the 2' high wave of water that came out of the door to outside that was opened when the folks outside noticed water coming from under the door at 2AM, I think reconstruction of the rest of the story can be left to the imagination.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2977086.stm The method of animal slaughter used by Jews and Muslims should be banned immediately, according to an independent advisory group. The Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC), which advises the government on how to avoid cruelty to livestock, says the way Kosher and Halal meat is produced causes severe suffering to animals. Both the Jewish and Muslim religions demand that slaughter is carried out with a single cut to the throat, rather than the more widespread method of stunning with a bolt into the head before slaughter. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ How long a minute is depends on which side of the bathroom door you're on. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Picking apart the Matrix - no spoilers
On Monday, June 9, 2003, at 11:49 pm, Reggie Bautista wrote: Jan wrote, in regards to the Matrix sequel: Speaking of eye candy, anyone notice the distinct lack of hot women? Lots of hot boys I understand, but no really sexy girls. It's all buck and no doe. I've seen the women the bros run around with, so what's the deal? That all depends on how you define hot. One of the people I saw the movie with was particularly impressed by the actress who played Persephone. Another thought that Morpheus' ex was pretty hot. And some people swear by Trinity's good looks... And don't forget Gina Torres. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ Those who study history are doomed to repeat it. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
In a message dated 6/10/2003 7:02:39 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh, like the Disclave Flooding Incident perpetrators? (If you haven't heard the story, the moral is, if you're going to play bondage games in the con hotel, DON'T use a sprinkler as a tie-down point. Knowing that, and knowing about the 2' high wave of water that came out of the door to outside that was opened when the folks outside noticed water coming from under the door at 2AM, I think reconstruction of the rest of the story can be left to the imagination.) Julia Bless be the bind that tides? William Taylor Was it more or less destructive than the peanut butter in the shower? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Picking apart the Matrix - spoilers
-Original Message- From: Ronn!Blankenship [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, June 09, 2003 10:45 PM To: 'Killer Bs Discussion' Subject: RE: Picking apart the Matrix - spoilers At 05:40 PM 6/9/03 -0700, Chad Cooper wrote: Perhaps I need to preface everything I write with (ALIKALOSBAASN). Erik referred earlier I'm with Dan on the whole act like you know a lot of science but actually are spouting nonsense thing. It's short for act like I know a lot of science but actually are spouting nonsense NFH ??? -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam... God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
On 9 Jun 2003 at 23:05, Erik Reuter wrote: On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 03:16:20AM +0100, Andrew Crystall wrote: So sorry, I have to utterly disagree with you. It's not semantics at all. I'd say the *majority* of the students who go to the local JSoc (Jewish Society) events aren't really religious, in fact. But they consider themselves Jews. It is semantics. There is definitely a difference between a religion and a people. As I explained before. A person chooses their religion, not their parents. You can call it whatever you want, the difference between birth and choice remains. You do not chose to be Jewish if your mother is. You are Jewish. And what's more, Isralie recognises that. You do not need to be a practicing Jew (although you cannot be a minister of another faith) to make use of the Law of Return. Does the notion that you are born into a faith discomfort you? Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'
On 10 Jun 2003 at 15:04, William T Goodall wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2977086.stm The method of animal slaughter used by Jews and Muslims should be banned immediately, according to an independent advisory group. It's a sudden and quick haemorrhage. A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain, said spokesman Dr Majid Katme. That's considerably MORE Humane than proceses at most slaughterhouses. What was the problem again? Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
Andy said: You do not chose to be Jewish if your mother is. You are Jewish. Isn't that argument roughly the same as if I set up the Slaves of Rich and said anyone with brown eyes was automatically a Slave of Rich and when people with brown eyes said they weren't my slaves I replied Yes you are - everyone with brown eyes is!? Or is Judaism linked to a mitochondrial gene or something? Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 05:37:12PM +0100, Andrew Crystall wrote: You do not chose to be Jewish if your mother is. You are Jewish. But you are not automatically practicing the religion because of your mother. Semantics. Not so hard to comprehend, really, if you are thinking clearly. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'
Andy said: It's a sudden and quick haemorrhage. A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain, said spokesman Dr Majid Katme. If you were going to be executed, would you choose having your thoat cut over being shot in the head? Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'
On Tuesday, June 10, 2003, at 05:37 pm, Andrew Crystall wrote: On 10 Jun 2003 at 15:04, William T Goodall wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2977086.stm The method of animal slaughter used by Jews and Muslims should be banned immediately, according to an independent advisory group. It's a sudden and quick haemorrhage. A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain, said spokesman Dr Majid Katme. That's considerably MORE Humane than proceses at most slaughterhouses. What was the problem again? The problem is that the Farm Animal Welfare Council[1], an independent government advisory group consisting of veterinary surgeons, agriculture professors, farmers, representatives of animal welfare organizations, and other qualified parties think that it is cruel and should be banned. The fact that the evil animal-torturing religious loonies can spout a few feeble rationalizations for their barbaric and inhumane acts doesn't change anything :) [1] The Farm Animal Welfare Council (FAWC) is an independent advisory body established by the Government in 1979. Its terms of reference are to keep under review the welfare of farm animals on agricultural land, at market, in transit and at the place of slaughter; and to advise the Government of any legislative or other changes that may be necessary. -- William T Goodall Mail : [EMAIL PROTECTED] Web : http://www.wtgab.demon.co.uk Blog : http://radio.weblogs.com/0111221/ The fact that an opinion has been widely held is no evidence whatever that it is not utterly absurd; indeed in view of the silliness of the majority of mankind, a widespread belief is more likely to be foolish than sensible. - Bertrand Russell ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'
From: Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end' Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 18:04:06 +0100 Andy said: It's a sudden and quick haemorrhage. A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain, said spokesman Dr Majid Katme. If you were going to be executed, would you choose having your thoat cut over being shot in the head? Speaking strictly for myself, that would depend on who was doing the shooting or sword swinging. Did you ever read Stephen King's short story, The Ballad Of The Flexible Bullet? Jon _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Plonkworthy? Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:00:35 -0500 Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Personally, I don't like to associate myself with groups that have such a bad history and such a large number of irrational people. Fen, frex. ;-) Oh, like the Disclave Flooding Incident perpetrators? (If you haven't heard the story, the moral is, if you're going to play bondage games in the con hotel, DON'T use a sprinkler as a tie-down point. Knowing that, and knowing about the 2' high wave of water that came out of the door to outside that was opened when the folks outside noticed water coming from under the door at 2AM, I think reconstruction of the rest of the story can be left to the imagination.) :-D That's hilarious. :-D Were the perpetrators dressed as naughty Klingons at the time? Jon _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'
Richard Baker wrote: Andy said: It's a sudden and quick haemorrhage. A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain, said spokesman Dr Majid Katme. If you were going to be executed, would you choose having your thoat cut over being shot in the head? Rich No, but I'd know it was coming. This discussion is ironic, because for most of history the kosher practice was more humane than the norm. I can't imagine that being led into a slaughterhouse is that easy on the animal involved either--for some reason this is being left out of the discussion. I'm just guessing, but I would bet that the average kosher butcher induces less overall trauma when you count the time leading up to the actual killing as well. ---David GCU Vegetarian ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'
From: David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end' Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 13:53:02 -0400 Richard Baker wrote: Andy said: It's a sudden and quick haemorrhage. A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain, said spokesman Dr Majid Katme. If you were going to be executed, would you choose having your thoat cut over being shot in the head? Rich No, but I'd know it was coming. This discussion is ironic, because for most of history the kosher practice was more humane than the norm. I can't imagine that being led into a slaughterhouse is that easy on the animal involved either--for some reason this is being left out of the discussion. I'm just guessing, but I would bet that the average kosher butcher induces less overall trauma when you count the time leading up to the actual killing as well. ---David GCU Vegetarian I know some of the basics about why Jews keep kosher and nothing about keeping (is that the right term?) halal, but can anyone suggest a good reading reference where I could learn more about the ritual? Thanks, Jon _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Was it more or less destructive than the peanut butter in the shower? Considering that a number of rooms on that floor were affected, I think it was more destructive, at least in terms of dollar amounts. Boy, were a lot of people upset! Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'
Andrew Crystall wrote: On 10 Jun 2003 at 15:04, William T Goodall wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2977086.stm The method of animal slaughter used by Jews and Muslims should be banned immediately, according to an independent advisory group. It's a sudden and quick haemorrhage. A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain, said spokesman Dr Majid Katme. That's considerably MORE Humane than proceses at most slaughterhouses. What was the problem again? Depends on how the animal is positioned for the throat-cutting. I think Temple Grandin went into this in _Thinking in Pictures_. Given my druthers, I'd much prefer to buy meat slaughtered at a slaughterhouse she'd designed. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
Jon Gabriel wrote: From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Plonkworthy? Date: Tue, 10 Jun 2003 09:00:35 -0500 Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Personally, I don't like to associate myself with groups that have such a bad history and such a large number of irrational people. Fen, frex. ;-) Oh, like the Disclave Flooding Incident perpetrators? (If you haven't heard the story, the moral is, if you're going to play bondage games in the con hotel, DON'T use a sprinkler as a tie-down point. Knowing that, and knowing about the 2' high wave of water that came out of the door to outside that was opened when the folks outside noticed water coming from under the door at 2AM, I think reconstruction of the rest of the story can be left to the imagination.) :-D That's hilarious. :-D Were the perpetrators dressed as naughty Klingons at the time? I was under the impression that there was just leather involved, no makeup. I heard about it from my sister's ex-boyfriend (when they were still dating) who was one of the people who observed the water seeping from under the door. Not sure if he was one of the ones to actually *open* it, but he was there when the door was opened. And he did the defense of one of the guilty parties very well -- But it held up OK *last* night! (or something to that effect). Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Scouted: Fake Meat From a Vat
Perhaps this will solve the kosher/halal killing and slaughterhouses problem http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3208 (It's an article from December) Tissue engineers are growing fake meat from cell cultures. However, you only need to establish a good blood supply if you want to grow thick slabs of muscle. Vladimir Mironov, director of the Shared Tissue Engineering Laboratory at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston has other ideas. His team thinks the meat of the future will be a processed food closer to a sausage or hamburger. In a detailed project proposal to NASA, he sets out how to grow cells on protein spheres suspended in growth medium. These could then be harvested and made into nuggets or patties. His starting cells will be myoblasts, which normally live at the edges of muscle fibres and help repair the muscles if they are damaged. They are better suited than embryonic stem cells, Mironov says, because they are already part of the way down the road to forming the desired cell type, rather than being totally undifferentiated. _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 07:58 PM 6/9/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote: I have a question for Erik on this thread, and nothing of his to really quote to give me an opening without quoting a long message (and that might be irritating): What is your opinion of Quakers? They're a sect of Christianity, but they espouse some beliefs that many Christians don't regarding war, etc., and they don't have a history of the sorts of abuses that many other groups fo Christians have. Just curious. Using the same argument found in an early paragraph of the Leonard Pitts article (thanks for the reference): Richard Nixon was a Quaker. How a Quaker could have done some of the things that Nixon did is beyond me. Julia who feels the same way about Eric Rudolph, actually ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
At 09:00 AM 6/10/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: Personally, I don't like to associate myself with groups that have such a bad history and such a large number of irrational people. Fen, frex. ;-) Oh, like the Disclave Flooding Incident perpetrators? (If you haven't heard the story, the moral is, if you're going to play bondage games in the con hotel, DON'T use a sprinkler as a tie-down point. Knowing that, and knowing about the 2' high wave of water that came out of the door to outside that was opened when the folks outside noticed water coming from under the door at 2AM, I think reconstruction of the rest of the story can be left to the imagination.) Then there was the person (NOT me) who came to the costume contest as the Cosmic Turd: wearing a trash bag which he had covered on the outside with peanut butter. Unfortunately, the peanut butter rubbed off on everything and everybody he came near . . . For several years after that, the rules for the costume contest at all cons in the area had an paragraph which read NO PEANUT BUTTER. If you don't know why, don't ask. Just don't do it. -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
At 01:34 PM 6/10/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote: Ronn!Blankenship wrote: At 07:58 PM 6/9/03 -0500, Julia Thompson wrote: I have a question for Erik on this thread, and nothing of his to really quote to give me an opening without quoting a long message (and that might be irritating): What is your opinion of Quakers? They're a sect of Christianity, but they espouse some beliefs that many Christians don't regarding war, etc., and they don't have a history of the sorts of abuses that many other groups fo Christians have. Just curious. Using the same argument found in an early paragraph of the Leonard Pitts article (thanks for the reference): Richard Nixon was a Quaker. How a Quaker could have done some of the things that Nixon did is beyond me. Julia who feels the same way about Eric Rudolph, actually Which makes the point that not everyone who says they are a member of a particular religion (or political party, or any other organization) is necessarily a good example of the ideals of that organization. BTW, a report aired locally suggested that the reason Rudolph (allegedly he hasn't been convicted yet) bombed the abortion clinic was less a pro-life/abortion is murder stance than the idea that too many _white_ women were aborting their babies, thereby contributing to the problem of the inferior races coming to outnumber whites. -- Ronn in Birmingham, AL :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Picking apart the Matrix - spoilers
entire threat snipped I really, really got to get out to see this movie. The number of messages I've skipped is getting huge on this thread... And it's morphing into other threads. - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
In a message dated 6/10/2003 1:24:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then there was the person (NOT me) who came to the costume contest as the Cosmic Turd: wearing a trash bag which he had covered on the outside with peanut butter. Unfortunately, the peanut butter rubbed off on everything and everybody he came near . . . For several years after that, the rules for the costume contest at all cons in the area had an paragraph which read NO PEANUT BUTTER. If you don't know why, don't ask. Just don't do it. I heard no trashbag, and it cost the hotel about $3,500 to replace the shower and plumbing. And no more cons at that hotel. Julia's story was probably more expensive. Two very Planckworthy events. William Taylor - No flash powder in the toilet paper rolls, please. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 5:16 AM Subject: Re: Plonkworthy? In a message dated 6/9/2003 10:39:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I remember one about a guy playing golf in Japan the day after a night when he visited a lady of the evening . . . -- Ronn! :) And his boss says Whadda ya mean I've got the wrong Brin-L? For those who have not heard the joke, the punchline goes: And the Japanese businessman exclaims 'What you mean, wrong hole?' xponent Joke Balance Upon Request Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 9:53 AM Subject: Re: Plonkworthy? In a message dated 6/10/2003 7:02:39 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Oh, like the Disclave Flooding Incident perpetrators? (If you haven't heard the story, the moral is, if you're going to play bondage games in the con hotel, DON'T use a sprinkler as a tie-down point. Knowing that, and knowing about the 2' high wave of water that came out of the door to outside that was opened when the folks outside noticed water coming from under the door at 2AM, I think reconstruction of the rest of the story can be left to the imagination.) Julia Bless be the bind that tides? A.now that was excellent William! xponent Pun Craftsmanship Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'
--- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew Crystall wrote: William T Goodall wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2977086.stm The method of animal slaughter used by Jews and Muslims should be banned immediately, according to an independent advisory group. It's a sudden and quick haemorrhage. A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain, said spokesman Dr Majid Katme. That's considerably MORE Humane than proceses at most slaughterhouses. What was the problem again? Depends on how the animal is positioned for the throat-cutting. I think Temple Grandin went into this in _Thinking in Pictures_. Given my druthers, I'd much prefer to buy meat slaughtered at a slaughterhouse she'd designed. You probably do, as she has been a leading authority in the handling of feed animals for years, and an advisor to the USDA. David Hobby had recently posted: This discussion is ironic, because for most of history the kosher practice was more humane than the norm. I can't imagine that being led into a slaughterhouse is that easy on the animal involved either--for some reason this is being left out of the discussion. I'm just guessing, but I would bet that the average kosher butcher induces less overall trauma when you count the time leading up to the actual killing as well. Temple Grandin has changed the way in which ritual kosher slaughter is done in the US and around the world; here is an article on why she lectured in Israel: [Warning: *very* graphic description of prior method used in the US.] http://www.grandin.com/ritual/kosher.slaughter.html There is a sentence or two on ritual Islamic slaughter: animal is stunned, short knife vs. long. This is a short pdf puplication: http://www.amif.org/FactSheetRitualSlaughter.pdf This documents the improvements in cattle slaughter in the US: http://www.avma.org/onlnews/javma/jan01/s011501uu.asp ...since a 1996 survey of slaughterhouses Dr. Grandin conducted on behalf of the USDA found a majority were deficient in humane handling and stunning practices. She recounted how, of the 10 randomly selected plants, seven were unable to successfully stun the cattle on the first attempt, and only three plants were in compliance with AMI guidelines... ...Dr. Grandin said in her 25 years of working with slaughter operations, she has never witnessed more change in the industry than when the McDonald's Corporation began auditing its meat suppliers in 1999. Of ritual slaughter, she said that when performed correctly, the welfare is acceptable, but we're not going to put it up to the excellent level. She is a very engaging speaker, and if you get the chance to hear her lecture at a local fair or convention, I highly recommend it (I heard her talk about horses - of course! - not animal slaughter). Debbi __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Mobile labs identified as UK-made weather balloon systems
I might have missed it if The Fool posted these in the midst Jeroen's latest BS storm - if I did, sorry! :) -j- Blow to Blair over 'mobile labs' Saddam's trucks were for balloons, not germs Peter Beaumont and Antony Barnett Sunday June 8, 2003 The Observer Tony Blair faces a fresh crisis over Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, as evidence emerges that two vehicles that he has repeatedly claimed to be Iraqi mobile biological warfare production units are nothing of the sort. The intelligence agency MI6, British defence officers and technical experts from the Porton Down microbiological research establishment have been ordered to conduct an urgent review of the mobile facilities, following US analysis which casts serious doubt on whether they really are germ labs. The British review comes amid widespread doubts expressed by scientists on both sides of the Atlantic that the trucks could have been used to make biological weapons. Instead The Observer has established that it is increasingly likely that the units were designed to be used for hydrogen production to fill artillery balloons, part of a system originally sold to Saddam by Britain in 1987. The British review follows access by UK officials to the vehicles which were discovered by US troops in April and May. 'We are being very careful now not to jump to any conclusions about these vehicles,' said one source familiar with the investigation. 'On the basis of intelligence we do believe that mobile labs do exist. What is not certain is that these vehicles are actually them so we are being careful not to jump the gun.' The claim, however, that the two vehicles are mobile germ labs has been repeated frequently by both Blair and President George Bush in recent days in support of claims that they prove the existence of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. During his whistle stop tour of the Gulf, Europe and Russia, Blair repeatedly briefed journalists that the trailers were germ production labs which proved that Iraq had WMD. But chemical weapons experts, engineers, chemists and military systems experts contacted by The Observer over the past week, say the layout and equipment found on the trailers is entirely inconsistent with the vehicles being mobile labs. Both US Secretary of State Colin Powell, when he addressed the UN Security Council prior to the war, and the British Government alleged that Saddam had such labs. A separate investigation published by the New York Times yesterday discloses that the trailers have now been investigated by three different teams of Western experts, with the third and most senior group of analysts apparently divided sharply over their function. 'I have no great confidence that it's a fermenter,' a senior analyst said of a tank supposed to be capable of multiplying seed germs into lethal swarms. The government's public report, he said, 'was a rushed job and looks political'. The analyst had not seen the trailers, but reviewed evidence from them. Another intelligence expert who has seen the trailers told the US paper: 'Everyone has wanted to find the smoking gun so much that they may have wanted to have reached this conclusion. I am very upset with the process.' Questions over the claimed purpose of trailer for making biological weapons include: * The lack of any trace of pathogens found in the fermentation tanks. According to experts, when weapons inspectors checked tanks in the mid-Nineties that had been scoured to disguise their real use, traces of pathogens were still detectable. * The use of canvas sides on vehicles where technicians would be working with dangerous germ cultures. * A shortage of pumps required to create vacuum conditions required for working with germ cultures and other processes usually associated with making biological weapons. * The lack of an autoclave for steam sterilisation, normally a prerequisite for any kind of biological production. Its lack of availability between production runs would threaten to let in germ contaminants, resulting in failed weapons. * The lack of any easy way for technicians to remove germ fluids from the processing tank. One of those expressing severe doubts about the alleged mobile germ labs is Professor Harry Smith, who chairs the Royal Society's working party on biological weapons. He told The Observer 'I am concerned about the canvas sides. Ideally, you would want airtight facilities for making something like anthrax. Not only that, it is a very resistant organism and even if the Iraqis cleaned the equipment, I would still expect to find some trace of it.' His view is shared by the working group of the Federation of American Scientists and by the CIA, which states: 'Senior Iraqi officials of the al-Kindi Research, Testing, Development, and Engineering facility in Mosul were shown pictures of the mobile production trailers, and they claimed that the trailers were used to chemically produce hydrogen for artillery weather balloons.'
Switching to NO-MAIL
I will be deeply involved in some legal health matters and will switch some odd 20 or so mailing lists to NO-MAIL, including this one for about two (2) months. I will be checking regular non-mailist type of email so if you need to get in touch with me, you've got my addy. I will be looking at the digest whenever time permits to keep up with the events at hand. Cheers! -- Han Tacoma ~ Artificial Intelligence is better than none! ~ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Mobile labs identified as UK-made weather balloon systems
Weather Balloons... and that's what they said at Roswell, too! Nerd From Hell -Original Message- From: Miller, Jeffrey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 3:23 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Mobile labs identified as UK-made weather balloon systems I might have missed it if The Fool posted these in the midst Jeroen's latest BS storm - if I did, sorry! :) -j- Blow to Blair over 'mobile labs' Saddam's trucks were for balloons, not germs Peter Beaumont and Antony Barnett Sunday June 8, 2003 The Observer Tony Blair faces a fresh crisis over Iraq's alleged weapons of mass destruction, as evidence emerges that two vehicles that he has repeatedly claimed to be Iraqi mobile biological warfare production units are nothing of the sort. The intelligence agency MI6, British defence officers and technical experts from the Porton Down microbiological research establishment have been ordered to conduct an urgent review of the mobile facilities, following US analysis which casts serious doubt on whether they really are germ labs. The British review comes amid widespread doubts expressed by scientists on both sides of the Atlantic that the trucks could have been used to make biological weapons. Instead The Observer has established that it is increasingly likely that the units were designed to be used for hydrogen production to fill artillery balloons, part of a system originally sold to Saddam by Britain in 1987. The British review follows access by UK officials to the vehicles which were discovered by US troops in April and May. 'We are being very careful now not to jump to any conclusions about these vehicles,' said one source familiar with the investigation. 'On the basis of intelligence we do believe that mobile labs do exist. What is not certain is that these vehicles are actually them so we are being careful not to jump the gun.' The claim, however, that the two vehicles are mobile germ labs has been repeated frequently by both Blair and President George Bush in recent days in support of claims that they prove the existence of Iraq's weapons of mass destruction. During his whistle stop tour of the Gulf, Europe and Russia, Blair repeatedly briefed journalists that the trailers were germ production labs which proved that Iraq had WMD. But chemical weapons experts, engineers, chemists and military systems experts contacted by The Observer over the past week, say the layout and equipment found on the trailers is entirely inconsistent with the vehicles being mobile labs. Both US Secretary of State Colin Powell, when he addressed the UN Security Council prior to the war, and the British Government alleged that Saddam had such labs. A separate investigation published by the New York Times yesterday discloses that the trailers have now been investigated by three different teams of Western experts, with the third and most senior group of analysts apparently divided sharply over their function. 'I have no great confidence that it's a fermenter,' a senior analyst said of a tank supposed to be capable of multiplying seed germs into lethal swarms. The government's public report, he said, 'was a rushed job and looks political'. The analyst had not seen the trailers, but reviewed evidence from them. Another intelligence expert who has seen the trailers told the US paper: 'Everyone has wanted to find the smoking gun so much that they may have wanted to have reached this conclusion. I am very upset with the process.' Questions over the claimed purpose of trailer for making biological weapons include: * The lack of any trace of pathogens found in the fermentation tanks. According to experts, when weapons inspectors checked tanks in the mid-Nineties that had been scoured to disguise their real use, traces of pathogens were still detectable. * The use of canvas sides on vehicles where technicians would be working with dangerous germ cultures. * A shortage of pumps required to create vacuum conditions required for working with germ cultures and other processes usually associated with making biological weapons. * The lack of an autoclave for steam sterilisation, normally a prerequisite for any kind of biological production. Its lack of availability between production runs would threaten to let in germ contaminants, resulting in failed weapons. * The lack of any easy way for technicians to remove germ fluids from the processing tank. One of those expressing severe doubts about the alleged mobile germ labs is Professor Harry Smith, who chairs the Royal Society's working party on biological weapons. He told The Observer 'I am concerned about the canvas sides. Ideally, you would want airtight facilities for making something like anthrax. Not only that, it is a very resistant organism and even if the Iraqis cleaned the equipment, I would still expect to find some trace of it.' His view is shared by the working group of the Federation of American Scientists and by the CIA, which
Re: Mobile labs identified as UK-made weather balloon systems
--- Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 'We are being very careful now not to jump to any conclusions about these vehicles' why can't we just take them at their word. They keep saying, we don't yet know. Well, let's stop the flaming until they do know. No-one ever said that we would end the war, go in, find anthrax stockpiled. In fact it was said all along that WMD's were the most extreme reason, not the only reason. When the talking head says that the police have apprehended a suspect, do you just automatically assume they are guilty? Then why, when Blair says, ...suspected of being Bio Labs... does everyone in GB hear ...definitely are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, Bio labs... and then get all accusatory? = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Mobile labs identified as UK-made weather balloon systems
-Original Message- From: Jan Coffey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 03:43 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Mobile labs identified as UK-made weather balloon systems --- Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 'We are being very careful now not to jump to any conclusions about these vehicles' why can't we just take them at their word. They keep saying, we don't yet know. Well, let's stop the flaming until they do know. No-one ever said that we would end the war, go in, find anthrax stockpiled. Actually, people did. In fact it was said all along that WMD's were the most extreme reason, not the only reason. That's what people are saying /now/ ..and WMD were what was used as the reason to short-circuit the UN inspectors, NOT the horridness of Saddam's regime When the talking head says that the police have apprehended a suspect, do you just automatically assume they are guilty? Then why, when Blair says, ...suspected of being Bio Labs... does everyone in GB hear ...definitely are, beyond a shadow of a doubt, Bio labs... and then get all accusatory? Well, except, see, that's what he DID say.. -j- ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Mobile labs identified as UK-made weather balloon systems
--- Chad Cooper [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Weather Balloons... and that's what they said at Roswell, too! Nerd From Hell Weather baloon is government code for we don't know. Who was deep throght? Deep throught was a weather balloon. Was their a second shooter? No, it was a weather balloon. Was Roswell a UFO? No, we do kno what it was, it was a weather balloon. Where do socks go when you loose them? If you can't find them, even when you move, they must be weather balloons. In Shrodengers Cat thought experiement would the Cat live or die? It isn't a cat, it's a weather balloon. Quick, what is the name of the president of Barundi? hu... isn't that a weather baloon? = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Switching to NO-MAIL
In a message dated 6/10/2003 3:36:44 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I will be deeply involved in some legal health matters and will switch some odd 20 or so mailing lists to NO-MAIL, including this one for about two (2) months. The purpose of dry dock is to return to the water ready for faster and smoother sailing. William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Fake Meat From a Vat
--- Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps this will solve the kosher/halal killing and slaughterhouses problem http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3208 (It's an article from December) Tissue engineers are growing fake meat from cell cultures. snip In a detailed project proposal to NASA, he sets out how to grow cells on protein spheres suspended in growth medium. These could then be harvested and made into nuggets or patties. snip I'll bet that growing your own meat-in-a-vat doesn't smell as good as baking your own bread! :P (I hated the smell of hot agar back in my microbiology lab days...) But It Would Be Guiltless...If They Can Make The Process Efficient Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Fake Meat From a Vat
In a message dated 6/10/2003 4:15:35 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I'll bet that growing your own meat-in-a-vat doesn't smell as good as baking your own bread! :P (I hated the smell of hot agar back in my microbiology lab days...) But It Would Be Guiltless...If They Can Make The Process Efficient Maru Old news. Carniculture meat never tastes as good as meat that came from an animal. Ask Conn Maxwell about the giant vat of goose liver they have on Fenris. Or ask all of the guano miners on Loki. And Jack Holloway always shot for the pot. ...wait a minute. This is the Brin-L, not the Piper-L William Taylor -- Everything new is old again. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Mobile labs identified as UK-made weather balloon systems
--- Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Jan Coffey [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Miller, Jeffrey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: 'We are being very careful now not to jump to any conclusions about these vehicles' why can't we just take them at their word. They keep saying, we don't yet know. Well, let's stop the flaming until they do know. No-one ever said that we would end the war, go in, find anthrax stockpiled. Actually, people did. In fact it was said all along that WMD's were the most extreme reason, not the only reason. That's what people are saying /now/ ..and WMD were what was used as the reason to short-circuit the UN inspectors, NOT the horridness of Saddam's regime snip The attempt to backpedal from WMD-as-the-reason-for-war is perplexing, as certainly *I* understood that to be the primary stated reason for going to war; in fact it was strongly implied that the US was *under direct threat* from Saddam's Iraq (see quote ^^'d below). Not that direct evidence was given, which IIRC was my major complaint about this action (I'm still reserving public comment on the setting-up of post-war Iraq, although so far it has not been a blue-ribbon performance -- they could yet pull ahead in the backstretch, if I may mix my metaphors). http://www.cnn.com/2003/LAW/06/06/findlaw.analysis.dean.wmd/#dean From President Bush's radio address, October 5, 2002: The Iraqi regime . . . possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons. It is seeking nuclear weapons. We know that the regime has produced thousands of tons of chemical agents, including mustard gas, sarin nerve gas, VX nerve gas. We've also discovered through intelligence that Iraq has a growing fleet of manned and unmanned aerial vehicles that could be used to disperse chemical or biological weapons across broad areas. We're concerned that Iraq is exploring ways of using these UAVS for missions targeting the United States. ^^^ The article is certainly slanted against the Admin's position, but many of the points/questions are valid. Debbi __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'
On 10 Jun 2003 at 18:04, Richard Baker wrote: Andy said: It's a sudden and quick haemorrhage. A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain, said spokesman Dr Majid Katme. If you were going to be executed, would you choose having your thoat cut over being shot in the head? Throat, definitely. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
On 10 Jun 2003 at 18:02, Richard Baker wrote: Andy said: You do not chose to be Jewish if your mother is. You are Jewish. Isn't that argument roughly the same as if I set up the Slaves of Rich and said anyone with brown eyes was automatically a Slave of Rich and when people with brown eyes said they weren't my slaves I replied Yes you are - everyone with brown eyes is!? Or is Judaism linked to a mitochondrial gene or something? There are certain genetic traits which are typically only found in Jews (such as Tay-Sachs disease), but it as is much cultural as religious. Would you try to deny your skin colour? Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
On 10 Jun 2003 at 13:02, Erik Reuter wrote: On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 05:37:12PM +0100, Andrew Crystall wrote: You do not chose to be Jewish if your mother is. You are Jewish. But you are not automatically practicing the religion because of your mother. Semantics. Not so hard to comprehend, really, if you are thinking clearly. Yep. Agree. However, as I said the religion part is only ONE part of it. There's also the Jews-as-a-people, Jew-as-a-culture and Jews-as-a- ideology (Zionism). You don't have to be religious to be Jewish. (unlike say Islam - there's no such thing as a non-practicing Muslem). Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Fake Meat From a Vat
On 10 Jun 2003 at 14:34, Jon Gabriel wrote: Perhaps this will solve the kosher/halal killing and slaughterhouses problem http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3208 (It's an article from December) Tissue engineers are growing fake meat from cell cultures. Yep, the idea is certainly very nice. When this becomes practical on a commercial scale, I for one will have no problems eating it. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
media stratagy meetings: was RE: Mobile labs identified asUK-made weather balloon systems
--- Deborah Harrell [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The article is certainly slanted against the Admin's position, but many of the points/questions are valid. But their is no way of proving that Bush was wrong at the time he made those statements (taken out of context as they are). The question still remains, what if we had done nothing? Iraqis would still be under a ruthless dictator. Is that what you want? We resumed, and ended the war, not becouse we knew they had WMDs, but becouse they had broken the agreements they made to ensure a sesation of hostilities. It was always about this. In adition to this was the threat that if they were not following one set of agreements, and they had the means to produce WMD, then the risk was too high. Even if we were not going to keep our word about 91, we had to do something becouse the threat, (the worse case scinario based on intelegence and probabilities and facts) was to greate not to. Taken out of context the factoids and sound bites can be spun however you want to spin them. I think those on this list have the intelegence to see the diffence. Was thier a spin to sell the war? Of course their was. That's how things work in the US. Every product you buy, (even sci-fi books) are marketed as best as possible. Some of these products are good products, some are not, but they are all sold with a spin. It was exagerated however by the media. Who's fault is that, Bush? Wolfowitz? Powel? They are at fault for the American mode of consensus? You want to blame them for the manner that ideas are expressed in the US? Of course the left never sells or spins do they? And the libritarians are not imune. Who the hell is Ann Rand after all? All this where are the WMDs talk is just another spin, I prefer to deal with the facts and make a decision based on that. Those were provided -along with the spin-. Iraq didn't keep it's agreements which we required to seace hostilities. We made repeted requests and atempted to resolve the issue though ambasidors and inspecors. They kept cheeting. We did exactly what we said we would do if they didn't follow the original agreement. WMD was an additional spin that the media focused on becouse it was the one that would sell the most comercials. Sure it was a Bush spin, but it was also a major concern, given that they were not following other parts of the agreement, and the intelegence was pointing to a program, -their was a program- even if they were not producing large enough quantities, their was a program. The media is where all the hype was. I remember ex generals on FOX, and interviews with working officials who stated over and over and over and over again that WMD was not the main reason, Husain as not the main target. At one point Powel said specificaly that we may not find WMDs, and that was long before the first troops moved in. On many channels every other word was, WMD, WMD. If you were watching left leaning media, then you got the story from the perspective the left wanted you to have. You don't think they didn't have stratagy meetings on post war programming? You think they didn't focus on the most benificial message based on their political leanings? And some just fall right into their stratagy. Step back, wake up. Yes Bush spun the WMD thing. Yes the left exagerated it. No it wasn't the main reason for the war. No you were not lied to (on this point) by your President. sheesh! = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Smokers 'to sign pledge' with doctors
I meant to comment on this earlier. --- The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://politics.guardian.co.uk/publicservices/story/0,11032,969353,00.html Smokers 'to sign pledge' with doctors Smokers and overweight people will be asked to sign contracts with their doctors to agree a programme to quit smoking and lose weight under radical plans being drawn up by the government. In an attempt to remind people of their own responsibilities the health secretary, Alan Millburn, is examining plans for patients and doctors to agree a formal programme of treatment. snip This sounds like some of what Dee and I had bounced around (on Brin-chat and even on-list IIRC). I do think that people need to start taking more responsibility for their own health, but early education is essential for this to really work. Also, more research into how genetics/biology affects behavior is needed (re: 'thrifty gene' and diabetes article someone posted recently), so that at-risk people can be counseled/treated before a problem develops (...even though that's starting down the GATTACA path...shudder). Another thing I would like to see change is our culture's current quick fix mindset; lifestyle is, well, *for life* - and changing it is not like changing your shirt. Fashion is a poor sustitute for reason. Debbi who comes from a long line of easy keepers** and has found that the only cure for 'stress-grazing' is to 'get out of the stall' at least 4 days a week, and allow herself a lump or two of sugar a day (instead of a cup, or none)... ;) **yup, more horse-talk: easy keeper ~ thrifty genes __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
Jeroen van Baardwijk wrote: Two months ago you were one of a very small group of people who were very enthusiastically cheering when your resident Fascist List Dictator Arnett said he was going to throw me off the list. Given your extremely intolerant behaviour back then, why should I give a damn about any requests you make? If I would remove you from the recipient list I would be nice to you -- but given your history of intolerance and aggression you do not deserve to be treated nicely. What about my history? Please stop sending out those blanket emails to everybody on your old subscriber list. You are only hurting your new list *and* the many former list members who are completely innocent in this fight. The Brin-L CoolList was intended as a fresh start, with more on-topic discussion and less politics than the original. So far, it's been doing a pretty good job. There have been many pleasant discussions of science fiction in the list's short life, and I'm glad to see some returning old faces from the early days of the original Brin-L. Please don't hurt that promising new list by bringing up the old conflicts. You deserve a slow and extremely painful death. That statement is really uncalled for. All it does is infect the new list with the worst ugliness from the old. __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Spam van Baardwijk
Jeroen wrote: Oh, and Reg, do me a favour, will you? Stop spamming the New Improved Brin-L with responses to messages intended for old-Brin-L; only use the New Improved Brin-L for its intended purposes: discussions of science fiction in general and the works of David Brin in particular. If you want to reply only to me, just hit the Reply button. If you want everyone on old-Brin-L to read your reply, reply on-list on the old-Brin-L. 1) So has your definition of Spam changed yet again? 2) I've only clicked on Reply. If someone else has moved the argument into both lists, I will certainly reply to both lists, but I never have and never will initiate cross-posting. An apology or retraction of your statement will be most appreciated. Just FYI, since you are trying to bring this discussion onto the original Brin list by sending individually to every active member, I am replying on-line in order to effectively defend myself against your false accusations. Reggie Bautista _ The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
From _The Guardian_ (that bastion of pro-Bush propaganda): http://www.guardian.co.uk/Iraq/Story/0,2763,974193,00.html As JDG has pointed out, the number of items currently believed to have been stolen is 33 and dropping. Truly the looting must have been terrible. There were a fair number of people who said some remarkably foolish things about the so-called looting of the Iraqi museum. Odds that any of them will even admit they were wrong? I do wonder, at some point will the credibility of these people just evaporate? I mean, will people say, gee, the people of Iraq _did_ celebrate when we arrived, Saddam _was_ defeated fairly easily, the country _didn't_ collapse into civil war, the museum _wasn't_ looted, and so on - at some point will the media say (as the public already has) that empirical reality and these people's beliefs are, let's be kind, orthogonal? = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
At 06:16 AM 6/10/03 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 6/9/2003 10:39:00 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I remember one about a guy playing golf in Japan the day after a night when he visited a lady of the evening . . . And his boss says Whadda ya mean I've got the wrong Brin-L? Yeah, that's the punch line as I recall it . . . -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
At 11:07 PM 6/9/03 -0400, Erik Reuter wrote: The majority of religious people are irrational. So are the majority of real numbers . . . -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Scouted: Monkeypox
Why some people think they have to have exotic animals as pets is beyond me... http://www.msnbc.com/news/923088.asp?0bl=-0 ...The investigators were seeking people who had bought exotic pets distributed since April by Pocket Pets, where a shipment of prairie dogs is believed to have been infected by a Gambian giant rat imported from Africa, where the disease is normally found. The hunt was complicated by transfers of animals from dealer to dealer. Some of the animals were resold at swap meets, where few records are kept If this makes it into the wild population, it will not be containable... Guess As A Child I Was Heavily Influenced By Born Free The Movie Maru __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
At 05:08 PM 6/10/03 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 6/10/2003 1:24:31 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Then there was the person (NOT me) who came to the costume contest as the Cosmic Turd: wearing a trash bag which he had covered on the outside with peanut butter. Unfortunately, the peanut butter rubbed off on everything and everybody he came near . . . For several years after that, the rules for the costume contest at all cons in the area had an paragraph which read NO PEANUT BUTTER. If you don't know why, don't ask. Just don't do it. I heard no trashbag, and it cost the hotel about $3,500 to replace the shower and plumbing. And no more cons at that hotel. I definitely remember a trashbag, and no shower, just PB rubbing off on everyone else's costumes, mundane clothing, etc. I suppose it is possible that two great minds had much the same idea . . . Where/when did the peanut butter incident you heard about occur? -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Defending myself: (Was: RE: Plonkworthy?)
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Steve Sloan II Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2003 8:39 PM To: Jeroen van Baardwijk; BRIN-L Subject: Re: Plonkworthy? Jeroen van Baardwijk wrote: Two months ago you were one of a very small group of people who were very enthusiastically cheering when your resident Fascist List Dictator Arnett said he was going to throw me off the list. Given your extremely intolerant behaviour back then, why should I give a damn about any requests you make? If I would remove you from the recipient list I would be nice to you -- but given your history of intolerance and aggression you do not deserve to be treated nicely. What about my history? Please stop sending out those blanket emails to everybody on your old subscriber list. You are only hurting your new list *and* the many former list members who are completely innocent in this fight. Since I'm apparently being bashed in public: For the record, all I did was try and remove myself from his unsolicited spam mail list by making a very polite, indeed *respectful* request. I didn't engage him in anything that could be reasonably termed 'a fight'. Further, I informed him that if he wouldn't respect my wishes he'd be killfiled. That was done after he claimed he was being forced to ignore my wishes. I wouldn't have even seen him reveal his true motives for spamming me, you do not deserve to be treated nicely or see him say: You deserve a slow and extremely painful death. to me if I hadn't missed a domain name when I killfiled him. That's been corrected. I do hope he enjoys my killfile. As the sole resident, he may decorate it as he pleases and Hotmail will clean up after him if he soils the carpeting. I would also like to note for the record, that since he's been permanently banned, I've held my tongue in order not to bash him onlist since he can't defend himself here. It's too bad he's proven himself incapable of acting civilly in return. The Brin-L CoolList was intended as a fresh start, with more on-topic discussion and less politics than the original. So far, it's been doing a pretty good job. There have been many pleasant discussions of science fiction in the list's short life, and I'm glad to see some returning old faces from the early days of the original Brin-L. Please don't hurt that promising new list by bringing up the old conflicts. You deserve a slow and extremely painful death. That statement is really uncalled for. All it does is infect the new list with the worst ugliness from the old. Caveat Emptor. Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Annoying movie writers (was: Picking apart the Matrix - spoilers)
Bryon Daly wrote: I'm hoping for the latter, but I fear the former. A lot of tv/movie sci-fi producers seem to think that the audience is dumb and won't care about logical consistency. Hey, it's all make-believe anyway - who cares about the details! I think that every sci-fi movie should be required to have at least one geek/nerd consultant that would review the script and make them fix all the dumb things they do/say in the movie. For example, he/she would tell them: - computer monitors don't project readable text onto people's faces Also most computer interfaces that get depicted make no sense, and often would hinder usability even though the director thinks they look cool Then again, I can also see how they want to avoid making their film accurate enough to be a hacker's training video. - Jeff Goldblum could not in a day write a computer virus on his Mac that he could upload to an alien computer network he knows nothing about and make it disable the alien ship's shields. Or, conversely, an alien race who would use such a simple operating system on their ships computers that it would be vulnerable to such a virus, they would not also know enough about computer security to be able to hack into our communication satellites and piggy back a signal. Hell, just the fact that we have computers should have raised their awareness to the point of implementing some level of password security. - you cannot take a grainy surveilance camera video and zoom in on a tiny 10x10 pixel smudge of a face, and end up with a crystal-clear shapshot of the person. ...And the zoom in is also at a slightly different angle or has different lighting. My favorite is the real-time satellite surveilance of the action where somehow the camera angle appears to be from a building across the street, instead of directly above. -- Matt ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
In a message dated 6/10/2003 9:04:54 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Erik Reuter wrote: The majority of religious people are irrational. So are the majority of real numbers . . . -- Ronn! :) Ah, but the prime of both sets are the ones that are most memorable. Sometimes the rational can make up for the irrational. Just be careful when placing the numerator over the denomination. William Taylor - Pantheistic agnosticism means the more the murkier. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
In a message dated 6/10/2003 9:14:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Where/when did the peanut butter incident you heard about occur? Gawd I don't know. But the story was circulating in Los Angeles at LASFAS in 1976. And I think it was a she. So maybe I know PB I and you know PB II. Maybe the bag guy knew better than to put it on bare skin William Taylor Skippy or Peter Pan? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
At 01:01 AM 6/11/03 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 6/10/2003 9:14:08 PM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Where/when did the peanut butter incident you heard about occur? Gawd I don't know. But the story was circulating in Los Angeles at LASFAS in 1976. And I think it was a she. Was that person billed as The Cosmic Turd? So maybe I know PB I and you know PB II. Maybe the bag guy knew better than to put it on bare skin Okay, so II was slightly more intelligent than I . . . William Taylor Skippy or Peter Pan? I have no idea what brand was used. -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Plonkworthy?
--- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Tue, Jun 10, 2003 at 05:37:12PM +0100, Andrew Crystall wrote: You do not chose to be Jewish if your mother is. You are Jewish. But you are not automatically practicing the religion because of your mother. Semantics. Not so hard to comprehend, really, if you are thinking clearly. Semantics, Syntactics, Semitics, who can keep track any more. Are you calling Andrew and anti-smantite ? = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'
--- David Hobby [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Richard Baker wrote: Andy said: It's a sudden and quick haemorrhage. A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain, said spokesman Dr Majid Katme. If you were going to be executed, would you choose having your thoat cut over being shot in the head? Rich No, but I'd know it was coming. This discussion is ironic, because for most of history the kosher practice was more humane than the norm. I can't imagine that being led into a slaughterhouse is that easy on the animal involved either--for some reason this is being left out of the discussion. I'm just guessing, but I would bet that the average kosher butcher induces less overall trauma when you count the time leading up to the actual killing as well. An autistic woman, can't remember her name, was responsible for designing a slauterhouse entry for cows and bulls specificaly becouse they were very anxious and were making a mess of things etc. All slaughterhouses now use this technique which involves a soft surounding which hugs the animal making it feel more secure. I heard an interview with her on NPR. So, yes, they do know what is about to happen to them, It's not going to stop me from eating them though. = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Halal and Kosher slaughter 'must end'
--- Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Andrew Crystall wrote: On 10 Jun 2003 at 15:04, William T Goodall wrote: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2977086.stm The method of animal slaughter used by Jews and Muslims should be banned immediately, according to an independent advisory group. It's a sudden and quick haemorrhage. A quick loss of blood pressure and the brain is instantaneously starved of blood and there is no time to start feeling any pain, said spokesman Dr Majid Katme. That's considerably MORE Humane than proceses at most slaughterhouses. What was the problem again? Depends on how the animal is positioned for the throat-cutting. I think Temple Grandin went into this in _Thinking in Pictures_. Sorry, there we go, name and source. = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scouted: Fake Meat From a Vat
--- Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Perhaps this will solve the kosher/halal killing and slaughterhouses problem http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns3208 (It's an article from December) Tissue engineers are growing fake meat from cell cultures. However, you only need to establish a good blood supply if you want to grow thick slabs of muscle. Vladimir Mironov, director of the Shared Tissue Engineering Laboratory at the Medical University of South Carolina in Charleston has other ideas. His team thinks the meat of the future will be a processed food closer to a sausage or hamburger. In a detailed project proposal to NASA, he sets out how to grow cells on protein spheres suspended in growth medium. These could then be harvested and made into nuggets or patties. Are there not Chicken Vats in one of the GC novels? = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
