Re: WMD
Tom, not to be rude, but are you even capable of discussing these things, or do you just start frothing at the mouth as soon as someone mentions George Bush? I mean, you seem like a bright and reasonable guy - right up until someone mentions a Republican and then I swear to God someone else takes over your body - it's like the Exorcist or something... A) Sometimes I exaggerate to make a point. Or sometimes I'm just baiting... B) Yes, Bush does push just about every button I possess. C) I don't always have the time to write something reasoned and well thought out. I'm just spitballing here, not writing position papers. D) There are plenty of conservatives who are the exact same way about Democrats and liberals and the Clintons. I realize that's not necessarily an excuse. E) Not to be rude, but there are some people who cannot mention George Bush and Iraq without getting all hagiographic and trembling with rapturous joy and admiration. Any criticism of any aspect of the recent war is automatically wrong and completely out of the question. They start frothing at the mouth as soon as anyone mentions looting or not enough troops, or anything similar... F) If you calm down, I will too. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
Why is it so hard to see there's a difference there? And how come the only people in the world outside of Israel who care about the difference live in the United States, and most of them are conservatives? Well, most American Jews care quite a lot about Israel, and most of us are not conservative (some of us are Conservative, but that's whole different row of pews...) Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Lost in the Baghdad Museum: The Truth
Gautam Mukunda wrote: OK, so I guess we can make the people of Iraq a deal - we can find their lost stuff, plus, just as an extra special bonus, we'll bury their children alive in mass graves. Do you think they'd take that deal? Because by God you talk like you think they would. Jeeze, Gautam, you're logic (or lack thereof) completely escapes me here. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: STOP YOUR CYBER-TERRORISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Julia Thompson Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 10:09 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: STOP YOUR CYBER-TERRORISM!! Jon Gabriel wrote: Oh, and Nick (or Julia) would you mind renewing the ban on Señor Spammy? The 'Noise from the Netherlands' is interfering with my peaceful enjoyment of our fascinating conversation about... uh... what were we talking about again? Thanks ;-) None of the mail went through the listserver. Check headers *carefully* before asking admins to do what they can't. :) Muchas Gracias Senora :) Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Is it a crime to urge another to commit suicide?
Does anyone happen to know if -- and where -- it is against the law to urge another person to commit suicide? Nick -- Nick Arnett Phone/fax: (408) 904-7198 [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
At 10:26 PM 6/12/2003 +0100 Richard Baker wrote: So if one wished to create a science-fictional situation with the US in the position of Palestine, how would one do so? Maybe a bunch of Liberians started moving back to Delaware, and wanted to secede and form a separate State of Leni Lenape? JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
Gautam Mukunda wrote: Rich, it's really very simple. If the Palestinians stopped fighting, and credibly demonstrated that they were willing to accept the existence of Israel, they'd get a state today. Would the Israelis be willing to give up all of their West Bank settlements at this point? Doug Who genuinely doesn't know. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where to Cut Defense Spending
At 10:19 PM 5/5/2003 -0400 Erik Reuter wrote: Of course, that can go both ways. I have read convincing arguments that the strongest economy is what wins the war in the long term (the cold war being the most recent example, but they traced it back too, I wish I could remember where I read it now) Except that this theory is directly contradicted by one of the overriding principles of American military planning for the last 30 years - avoiding the next Vietnam. And I don't know that we can argue that the Vietnam War didn't reach the long term. JDG ___ John D. Giorgis - [EMAIL PROTECTED] The liberty we prize is not America's gift to the world, it is God's gift to humanity. - George W. Bush 1/29/03 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Where are the European hypocrites?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gautam Mukunda Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 5:32 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Where are the European hypocrites? --- Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Okay, choose some other state. I was just trying to make people imagine how they might feel if a foreign Israel was set up in the Palestinian US. I'd imagine quite a lot of Americans would be rather upset about the whole thing, and try to expel it, and keep trying to do so for decades using whatever methods are available. Furthermore, many would continue trying to do so long after it became apparent that the destruction of the new state wasn't possible. (I'm not picking on America: the same thing would probably happen in Britain and many other countries too.) Rich Yeah, but there have been Jews in that area since before recorded history and they made up a very large proportion of the population before the Israeli War of Independence. You know, I do sympathize with this point of view, but by those standards, the United States belongs to Native Americans, doesn't it? (or do you feel perhaps that because they lost the war(s), they lost their rights for the land? I'm curious about your opinion.) And it is simply inconceivable that Americans, at least, would decide that the solution to the problem was genocide - while it is quite clear that the Palestinian groups - the PLO very much included - wish to finish what Hitler started. I'm too lazy to make a case out of it, but there's definitely an argument to be made that this is precisely what was done to the Sioux, the Apaches, the Navaho Oh, the methods may be different, but the goal and end result will be the same. Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
On Thu, 12 Jun 2003 22:58:45 +0100, Richard Baker wrote: Dan said: How about, over a period of years, the US is inundated by foreigners who look like they will drastically and permanently change the ethnic makeup of the US? No sci-fi needed. :-) Yes, but that's not really the same situation, is it? Can you imagine a separate sovereign Hispanic state forming on the territory of the United States and having a military so powerful that it's able to inflict repeated humiliating defeats on the forces of the federal government? I read Dan's statement from the perspective of native North Americans. Try that in your analogy. Dean ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Where are the European hypocrites?
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Gautam Mukunda Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 10:15 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: Where are the European hypocrites? --- Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yes, but that's not really the same situation, is it? Can you imagine a separate sovereign Hispanic state forming on the territory of the United States and having a military so powerful that it's able to inflict repeated humiliating defeats on the forces of the federal government? Rich No, but I can't imagine us responding by trying to eliminate Hispanics all around the world either. Rich, it's really very simple. If the Palestinians stopped fighting, and credibly demonstrated that they were willing to accept the existence of Israel, they'd get a state today. If the Israelis stopped fighting, we'd have another six million dead Jews. Which is approximately 50% of the world's population and the entire Jewish population of Israel. (Gautam may have known that, but I thought the 'irony' worth posting.) :( Why is it so hard to see there's a difference there? Because a largely underdog-sympathetic media in Europe has framed this as a poor, defenseless arab people fighting against an all-powerful jewish state. In your job, you must read the international media, no? And how come the only people in the world outside of Israel who care about the difference live in the United States, This is a good question. I haven't seen a single logical answer posted to either the Culture list or by any of our European members that explains why they think Palestinian terrorism is appropriate. Answering 'They have no choice' is simply not an answer that justifies the murder of innocent civilians or unarmed children. There is *always* a choice involved when you decide to strap a bomb on your body and go kill innocents. and most of them are conservatives? I don't agree with this. I am a somewhat middle-of-the road conservative, and I haven't met a single New York liberal who thinks the jewish population in Israel should be wiped out or that the Palestinian terrorism isn't horrible. In my opinion, you cannot judge all liberals or democrats by articles you read in the papers or hear on talk shows. Nor can you judge most Democrats' opinions by their leaders' agendas in much the same way most Republicans' opinions cannot be judged by every word that falls from our President's mouth. You live here. Do you think the New York Post speaks for every Republican? Jon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Are you a model citizen?
At 07:21 PM 6/12/2003 -0700, you wrote: --- Russell Chapman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Adam C. Lipscomb wrote: Great idea! I've got a Secret Volcano Lair, can you bring the Plutonium and the Deadly Bikini-clad Vixens? Just so I know when I parachute/jet-ski/scuba-dive into the cavern under your lair on my to saving the world from your dastardly plot... Are these Deadly Vixens clad in Bikinis, or Vixens clad in Deadly Bikinis? I need to know if I'm still in danger after I've seduced them and got them nekkid... Cheers Russell 007 C It seems like he's getting the better of the deal. I mean, which would you rather have, a volcano lair or bikini clad vixens? Gautam Mukunda I have volcano (looking) hair. So fun being call heat miser as a child. And in college. http://www.alixnorth.com/personal/webessay.html and that was before I started combing my hair that way. Of course grey hairs are creeping in. Is this what life is all about? Kevin T. - VRWC Not as bad as being called Ronald McDonald... ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Blogging
At 05:29 PM 6/5/2003 -0700, you wrote: Hi folks. Well, I've joined the blogosphere, along with several others of us. If any of y'all sends me a link to theirs, btw, I'd be happy to link to yours, although I'm quite certain that all of you have more readers than I do. Anyways, mine is at mukunda.blogspot.com I'm starting out with a review of Michael Lewis's _Moneyball_ which I think the baseball fans on the list might find interesting. Gautam = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://mukunda.blogspot.com I visited your site today. Wow can you ramble on! Thanks for keeping your L3s to yourself. Was wondering: why aren't you using movable type? I had trouble getting the comments to work, the link was based in England? Kevin T. - VRWC ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: ADMIN: Jeroen (was RE: STOPYOURCYBER-TERRORISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
-Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Erik Reuter Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 7:01 PM To: Killer Bs Discussion Subject: Re: ADMIN: Jeroen (was RE: STOP YOURCYBER-TERRORISM!!) On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 05:04:32PM -0700, Nick Arnett wrote: May I suggest the course of action I've taken, when you receive this stuff privately. I have set up forwarding of each message from Jeroen (and I get THREE copies of each) back to him with a copy to [EMAIL PROTECTED], where I have previously sent complaints about unwanted emails. I'm not sure anyone reads/receives the abuse address. From WHOIS on freeler.nl, though, they list [EMAIL PROTECTED] I set up procmail to copy both [EMAIL PROTECTED] and [EMAIL PROTECTED] Noted, and I've changed my gizmo to do the same. My messages to abuse haven't bounced, however. Nick ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: WMD
Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And God forbid that anyone should ever suggest that Bush/Rumsfeld/Cheney/etc. are anything less than the very living incarnations of Jesus Christ himself... Tom Beck Tom, not to be rude, but are you even capable of discussing these things, or do you just start frothing at the mouth as soon as someone mentions George Bush? I mean, you seem like a bright and reasonable guy - right up until someone mentions a Republican and then I swear to God someone else takes over your body - it's like the Exorcist or something... But I would say almost the same thing about you when someone is critical of Bush or the U.S. Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
general rambling
or bad things happening to good people. Last week the internet radio site I listen to was blocked at work. I know we can debate whether I have ANY reason or right for listening to streaming audio, but I was very bummed. I listen to drown out my co-workers. My workspace is on a quiet floor and when the idio...my fellow workers start up their three hour conversations about the best cheesecake they ever ate, my choices are to either stick my fingers in my ears and say lalalalalalala, which would make it tough to type, or turn up the metal. I bought a great radio, but I couldn't get good reception and the local radio sucks anyway. I thought of getting XM, but the selection seems limited.* I could bring in CDs, but I like hearing music I don't own. When I first started I was recording CDs at home, and dumping the songs onto my work computer, but I've gotten two new computers since then. I mean, this seems one of the reasons the internet was created. You want to listen to calypso or Georgian chants or the backstreet boys all day long? Trust me, some place has it. I have an alternate site, which I switched to. The blocked site was very broad, many broadcasters so I'm assuming it wasn't blocked just because of me. The alternate site is only one stream, so hopefully they won't block it. *Anyone have digital cable? The selections for me are too general. You listen to 80s music channel, you get some good songs, some you say 'wow I haven't thought about that song in a long time', but you also get a lot of 'please shut it off, I never want to hear that song again, ever!' songs. When XM came out, I stood in circuit city, programmed a receiver for six presets that I liked, then stood there for an hour listening, switching channels to see what the stations were playing. There were many, many minutes that went by where I couldn't find anything to listen to. Yes I have no life. Anyway this week I found out my long awaited promotion/raise, and the many, many, months of backpay, was not going to happen. My immediate bosses were very mad on my behalf, but they can't do anything more. It was squashed by an HR department that has no idea what our department does. They think mainframe programmers aren't important, yet the mainframe systems handles all the data and the PCs systems piggy-back off of them. I've worked on systems that control billions of dollars, effect millions of people, yet I don't have enough responsibility to justify the promotion. I have a few options left, but I feel beat down by the system. I had the chance to switch departments, which would have gotten me the promotion, but I choose to stay out of loyalty and I like what I'm doing. Hindsight is 20/20, but this sucks. I mean, I took a pay cut to start this job, expecting I would get a raise quickly. One good thing about work: fixing mistakes made by others.** I was modifying a program and it was obvious the original writer took a lot of shortcuts. My modifications were separate from the original program, but I knew they wouldn't be compatible. When I showed these problems to a boss, I was told the current program runs fine and has ran fine for years, whatever I did must be the problem. This is the third time I was told this (on three different programs) and every time it turned out I was right, the original program wasn't as perfect as they thought. After working that nut for two days, I was able to get the original program to fail. When I showed two other bosses the failure, they both said, 'Oh, we've seen that problem but didn't know what was causing it. So I was in a happy mood until I got home. **I'm not saying I look for problems on purpose, but I like to think any program can be bulletproof and compact. I guess it's my background in PLCs and assembly. I didn't have the luxury of loose code. If there was something I did twice in a program, I would count lines to see if I'd save program space by using a subroutine and weigh that against runtime. So when I work on other peoples' programs, first I have to see what they did to know where I have to make changes or fit my code. And some (most) of these programs seem to have no logic to them. They get the job done, but I wonder if the writer really knew how. I took a quick bike ride today, only going 15 miles. On the way back I got a flat. Then it started raining. A quick ride turned into two hours. So much for my good mood. And the cable is out. But I have satellite TV. What's that? Doesn't cable TV advertise that Satellite Tv doesn't work when it rains? HAHAHAHAHA, F***Y** comcast. Kevin T. - VRWC Can't wait for Friday (now). Not much to do at work, sunshine for a bike ride after work, no second job tomorrow night, and seeing my cousins' band play blues at the local microbrew. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: English language (was: China RFID tracking people)
Wow, this message is almost a week old, but I just found it. Been a bit busy... Deborah Harrell wrote: --- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Deborah Harlem wrote: ^^ Never been there. Is this a word-play I'm just too dense to figure out? I have no idea how that happened - oh... must have been spell checker come to think of it. Sorry about that. Why Isn't It Plural Meese And Hice? Maru (if you have more than one moose in more than one house) Then how would you tell the difference between more than one mouse and more than one moose? By the size of their droppings, of course... ;} Doug I'm gonna' eat you meeses to pieces. So is a single Peanut Butter Cup a Roose? :) Debbi Aych-A-Double-Are-Eee-Double-Ell Maru 8^) En-Eee-Ess-Tee-Ell-Eee-Ess... Doug Chocolate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scientific method: was Re: Twenty (or so) Questions, was Re:Plonkworthy?
Jan Coffey wrote: *sigh* I know I must have made some syntactic mistake their myself but, hay, I'm just as human as Erik. Erik's Human? Huh. Doug 8^) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
[L3] Communication (was Re: media stratagy meetings)
--- Jan Coffey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Esentialy we seem to agree on the facts and how things have played out. What we disagree on was the appropriatness of the actions that were taken concerning spin. As such I would like to continto focus more closely on this part, if you don't mind. rubs hands together gleefully Talking about talking? Oh, goody! What I find amazing is that I am allways on the other side of this dicotomy when it comes to person-to-person communication. You touched upon this in an earlier post. At times I wish people would just get the Gist of what I other mean and not pick apart the details which are often due to misspeaking. It's not allways that one don't know, sometimes one might just pull out the wrong words. What I notice about email, as much as I enjoy the List, is that as _conversation_ it is lacking ~1/4+ (I am _so_ guessing this figure!) of the communication that occurs in face-to-face interactions. Body language, facial expression and tone-of-voice can enhance, reinforce, shade/nuance, and even reverse or negate the words spoken. Emoticons are a pale shadow of this vibrant non-verbal signaling. For me especially, both by nature (I have 'always' been empathic) and training (observation is vital to medical personnel), this void hampers my ability to understand what is actually *meant* rather than just what is being *written.* And of course reading posts while sleep-deprived or stressed-out doesn't help either. :P Somewhat tangentially: regarding your 'opposite-sidedness' in person-to-person communication: how are you at interpreting the desires/intentions/forthcoming actions of domestic animals (dogs, cats etc.), whose communication is of course totally non-verbal? (but not non-vocal) Or getting them to understand yours? At the same time, I hold no negative assment of Bush et. al. for spinning as I see spinning a requirment to communicate with and perswade the American public. The emergent properties of this appears controdictory. Listen to what I mean not what I say Listen to what I say not what it sounds like I mean. The key to the differnece is in the use of logic and recognizing mistakes rather than recognizing spin. As you said earlier, many people seem to be too lazy, distracted or uncritical of what they hear and read. I don't know how to correct that except by teaching critical thinking in school (I suppose some private schools do this). So one question is, should our government look upon its constituency as PT Barnum would, or as sheep to be led, or wolves who are content to follow-the-leaders but might turn upon them and tear them up if sufficiently angered? Transparency and accountability lessen the State's predatory abilities; both of these principles have been under attack by the current admin, IMO. Which in turn has led to my distrust of their motives in just about every arena. One of the dangers to 'the spinners' is that if *enough* people become aware of excessive manipulative spin, they might revile and attack those who twist critical truth. Or disbelieve *anything* the spin-mongers say because of the prior perceived manipulation(s). In looking at health-related studies, one has to be aware of the bias(es) of the investigating group or institution, who funded it, and what agenda(s) they have. Of course we don't call it spin, but those who attempt to suppress data or retrospectively change parameters of their study are castigated if/when the misdirection is discovered. As well they ought to be. So one of *my* fundamental precepts is that in matters of great import, presentation of data and conclusions therefrom needs and ought to be unbiased, with interpretation(s) clearly stated as such. wry aside Working with a law office has been...interesting. (and these are non-advertising, 'take a case only if it's clearly winable' kind of guys) ;} Now in non-vital matters, white lies and spin are to be expected -- frequently I still find it annoying, but must admit to using both! I am interested in your take on person to person comunication, what you think would have been the most appropriate action taken by Bush et. al., and how the spin doctors from their oposition could have been delt with without resorting themselves to any degree of spin/ First part: answered, at least partially, above. I do think that a certain degree of white lying/spin is necessary to keep social interactions smoother. Frex: a friend, obviously pleased with her new purchase, asks you at a party how you like her new dress. Do you say , All those ruffles - I'm thinking: potato chips, and that shade of yellow makes you look like a zombie! or Oh, so Victorian is back in now? You know, I think that greenblue scarf of yours would *really* contrast nicely with the yellow... But if you're shopping with her, you can say when she tries it on, Mmm, I don't think it does anything good for your shouldersnah, not a keeper.
Re: ADMIN: Jeroen (was RE: STOP YOURCYBER-TERRORISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)
What if we were to make the archive on Yahoo Groups private? Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Hoon soccer FOOTBALL game
Well, Alvin tried to have the Hoon play basketball, but too many players were grabbing another player's throat-sac instead of the rebound. But any bipedal race should be able to play soccer. For fencing, I've already figured out that the extra joint will give a greater terminal velocity to the blade. What will a longer leg and extra joint do for a soccer kick? Any sports experts out there? Is there a name for a shot where the ball is cradled on the ankles and both legs are lifted and snapped in a whip-like motion? Add the extra joint. How much faster-deadly would that shot be? Textual ideas so far. From the journal of Dor-hinuf. Today, of course was a non-work day. Today we played football, or soccer if you go by the name used by a past political faction of only a fraction of one of Earth's continents. That part is all confusing to me. My husband just gave out one of his human-like laughs. Of course it's confusing, he said. They are humans. Earthclan and all. And 'What in Ifni are these humans talking about.' That line's actually beginning to get tiresome. Mudfoot should be hired to come up with a new tagline for the comic. Then again maybe not. Mudfoot is after all Mudfoot. Just to show how unfair it would be, they played 5 minutes of hoon versus human. They should have stopped after the fourth goal. William Taylor As an added joke, if a human manages to score a goal, the referee is going to hold up a white card. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
[L3] Communication (was Re: media stratagy meetings)
I thought I sent this, but it hasn't shown up, so if this is a re-post, sorry. --- Jan Coffey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Esentialy we seem to agree on the facts and how things have played out. What we disagree on was the appropriatness of the actions that were taken concerning spin. As such I would like to continto focus more closely on this part, if you don't mind. rubs hands together gleefully Talking about talking? Oh, goody! What I find amazing is that I am allways on the other side of this dicotomy when it comes to person-to-person communication. You touched upon this in an earlier post. At times I wish people would just get the Gist of what I other mean and not pick apart the details which are often due to misspeaking. It's not allways that one don't know, sometimes one might just pull out the wrong words. What I notice about email, as much as I enjoy the List, is that as _conversation_ it is lacking ~1/4+ (I am _so_ guessing this figure!) of the communication that occurs in face-to-face interactions. Body language, facial expression and tone-of-voice can enhance, reinforce, shade/nuance, and even reverse or negate the words spoken. Emoticons are a pale shadow of this vibrant non-verbal signaling. For me especially, both by nature (I have 'always' been empathic) and training (observation is vital to medical personnel), this void hampers my ability to understand what is actually *meant* rather than just what is being *written.* And of course reading posts while sleep-deprived or stressed-out doesn't help either. :P Somewhat tangentially: regarding your 'opposite-sidedness' in person-to-person communication: how are you at interpreting the desires/intentions/forthcoming actions of domestic animals (dogs, cats etc.), whose communication is of course totally non-verbal? (but not non-vocal) Or getting them to understand yours? At the same time, I hold no negative assment of Bush et. al. for spinning as I see spinning a requirment to communicate with and perswade the American public. The emergent properties of this appears controdictory. Listen to what I mean not what I say Listen to what I say not what it sounds like I mean. The key to the differnece is in the use of logic and recognizing mistakes rather than recognizing spin. As you said earlier, many people seem to be too lazy, distracted or uncritical of what they hear and read. I don't know how to correct that except by teaching critical thinking in school (I suppose some private schools do this). So one question is, should our government look upon its constituency as PT Barnum would, or as sheep to be led, or wolves who are content to follow-the-leaders but might turn upon them and tear them up if sufficiently angered? Transparency and accountability lessen the State's predatory abilities; both of these principles have been under attack by the current admin, IMO. Which in turn has led to my distrust of their motives in just about every arena. One of the dangers to 'the spinners' is that if *enough* people become aware of excessive manipulative spin, they might revile and attack those who twist critical truth. Or disbelieve *anything* the spin-mongers say because of the prior perceived manipulation(s). In looking at health-related studies, one has to be aware of the bias(es) of the investigating group or institution, who funded it, and what agenda(s) they have. Of course we don't call it spin, but those who attempt to suppress data or retrospectively change parameters of their study are castigated if/when the misdirection is discovered. As well they ought to be. So one of *my* fundamental precepts is that in matters of great import, presentation of data and conclusions therefrom needs and ought to be unbiased, with interpretation(s) clearly stated as such. wry aside Working with a law office has been...interesting. (and these are non-advertising, 'take a case only if it's clearly winable' kind of guys) ;} Now in non-vital matters, white lies and spin are to be expected -- frequently I still find it annoying, but must admit to using both! I am interested in your take on person to person comunication, what you think would have been the most appropriate action taken by Bush et. al., and how the spin doctors from their oposition could have been delt with without resorting themselves to any degree of spin/ First part: answered, at least partially, above. I do think that a certain degree of white lying/spin is necessary to keep social interactions smoother. Frex: a friend, obviously pleased with her new purchase, asks you at a party how you like her new dress. Do you say , All those ruffles - I'm thinking: potato chips, and that shade of yellow makes you look like a zombie! or Oh, so Victorian is back in now? You know, I think that greenblue scarf of yours would *really* contrast nicely with the yellow... But if you're shopping with her, you can say when she tries it on, Mmm,
test
Test - going through? __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Emergency Alert System?
This is a test . . . E!! This concludes this test. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Twenty (or so) Questions, was Re: Plonkworthy?
Julia said: OK, why *did* it survive? Do you know? I don't know about cystic fibrosis in detail, but it's presumably because having one copy of the gene conveys some advantage that outweighs the problems involved with having two copies. Another example is the incidence of thalassemia in Ferrara, Italy. In that region, 18% of people are born with one copy of the thalassemia gene and 1% with two copies. The unfortunate people with two copies develop the disease, and nearly all of them die young. However, until WW2, Ferrara had been afflicted with malaria for centuries, and the gene for thalassemia conveys resistance to malaria. About one in ten people with no thalassemia gene died of malaria whereas those with one or two thalassemia genes almost always survived. The incidence of the gene was thus kept at an equilibrium level: having the occasional descendent who dies of thalassemia is outweighed by having lots of descendents who don't die of malaria. Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scientific method: was Re: Twenty (or so) Questions, was Re:Plonkworthy?
Jan said: Unless requested by a client or an employer, the code illustrates how the finished code works. The only problem with that is that the code can only illustrate what it actually does rather than what it should do. That's why it's so important to have comments that give the intention of the code, collections of test cases with expected results and other types of documentation. It's *very* important that the complete set of this stuff should be as clear as possible, because most of the programming effort on most projects is in the maintenance phase, and in many cases the maintenance programmers will be people other than the ones who worked on the initial implementation, and the initial developers might not even be available for consultation. Speaking as someone who had to fix many bugs in a ten thousand line system with very little documentation and especially poor variable naming conventions, learning what code does from the code itself can often be quite hard. Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: WHO THE FUCK...
Jon said: Rich, did he crosspost to Culture? No, not this time. Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: STOP YOUR CYBER-TERRORISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Jon Gabriel wrote: My two cents: dump him in your killfile and let him yell there. You can't hear him. You can't see him. It's good for everybody! :-) Hmm, I dunno. I think there is a certain merit in letting his mails enter the inbox. The ones with the more..um..imaginative headers can be read to ascertain if he has chosen to deal with certain issues differently. So far, his imagination has been limited to the subject headers though. Still, it is fascinating. I sort of perceive it as a battle between human tenacity and human intelligence, the original poster being the battlefield. The forces of human intelligence have never been this beleagured before. Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Are you a model citizen?
Gautam Mukunda wrote: It seems like he's getting the better of the deal. I mean, which would you rather have, a volcano lair or bikini clad vixens? A volcano lair obviously! Ritu GCU Was That A Trick Question? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Test
Testing ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where to Cut Defense Spending
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 12:13:39AM -0400, John D. Giorgis wrote: At 10:19 PM 5/5/2003 -0400 Erik Reuter wrote: Of course, that can go both ways. I have read convincing arguments that the strongest economy is what wins the war in the long term (the cold war being the most recent example, but they traced it back too, I wish I could remember where I read it now) Except that this theory is directly contradicted by one of the overriding The exception proves the rule! Seriously, a trend doesn't have to be 100% to still be a good predictor. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scientific method: was Re: Twenty (or so) Questions, wasRe: Plonkworthy?
At 10:00 PM 6/12/03 -0700, Doug Pensinger wrote: Jan Coffey wrote: *sigh* I know I must have made some syntactic mistake their myself but, hay, I'm just as human as Erik. Erik's Human? Huh. Doug 8^) Let Us Oft Speak Kind Words Text: Joseph L. Townsend Music: Ebenezer Beesley Verse 1 Let us oft speak kind words to each other At home or where'er we may be; Like the warblings of birds on the heather, The tones will be welcome and free. They'll gladden the heart that's repining, Give courage and hope from above, And where the dark clouds hide the shining, Let in the bright sunlight of love. Chorus Oh, the kind words we give shall in memory live And sunshine forever impart. Let us oft speak kind words to each other; Kind words are sweet tones of the heart. Verse 2 Like the sunbeams of morn on the mountains, The soul they awake to good cheer; Like the murmur of cool, pleasant fountains, They fall in sweet cadences near. Let's oft, then, in kindly toned voices, Our mutual friendship renew, Till heart meets with heart and rejoices In friendship that ever is true. ;-) -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: test
Now it is... there was a corrupted Python module that screwed up administration last night. I fixed that, but apparently the list failed to restart properly afterwards. All seems well now. Nick -- Nick Arnett Phone/fax: (408) 904-7198 [EMAIL PROTECTED] -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Deborah Harrell Sent: Thursday, June 12, 2003 10:41 PM To: brinl Subject: test Test - going through? __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
Richard Baker wrote: Julia said: The thing is, Texas has more to lose by leaving the US than it has to gain, and most of us understand that. The parallel doesn't quite work. Okay, choose some other state. I was just trying to make people imagine how they might feel if a foreign Israel was set up in the Palestinian US. I'd imagine quite a lot of Americans would be rather upset about the whole thing, and try to expel it, and keep trying to do so for decades using whatever methods are available. Furthermore, many would continue trying to do so long after it became apparent that the destruction of the new state wasn't possible. (I'm not picking on America: the same thing would probably happen in Britain and many other countries too.) If you want to think up an analogy, try something like: USA loses a war in a big way. After much political maneuvering and a few terrorist-style attacks and perhaps an uprising or two, the victors, whomever they are, decide that some the lands ceded at the end of the Mexican War rightfully belong to Mexico, as they are part of the Mexican homeland, and return them. Now can you say that the people who used to have USA citizenship would happily become Mexican citizens? Would they leave for other parts of the USA? or would they turn to other, um, less politically acceptable methods, even if it seems that there's no hope of returning to the situation as it was before the land transfer? -- Matt ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is it a crime to urge another to commit suicide?
Does anyone happen to know if -- and where -- it is against the law to urge another person to commit suicide? Nick It's probably not a crime in the Netherlands, if that's where you are going with this. : ) ---David ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scientific method: was Re: Twenty (or so) Questions, was Re:Plonkworthy?
On Thu, Jun 12, 2003 at 10:00:27PM -0700, Doug Pensinger wrote: Erik's Human? You haven't figured out yet who I REALLY am? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: general rambling
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 12:27:17AM -0400, Kevin Tarr wrote: my choices are to either stick my fingers in my ears and say lalalalalalala, which would make it tough to type, or turn up the metal. You could insert earplugs, or better yet, you can buy ear-covers (sort of like you see ground traffic controllers at airports wearing). -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Are you a model citizen?
From: Adam C. Lipscomb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Great idea! I've got a Secret Volcano Lair, can you bring the Plutonium and the Deadly Bikini-clad Vixens? Julia! Kat! Dee! Let's see who else do we have... Deborah! Oh man, I know I'm missing someone... Oh yeah, Ritu! and Ticia! Too bad Sonja's not around anymore... vbg - jmh Gonna Get Slapped Big Time Maru! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: WHO THE F*CK...
From: Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: WHO THE FUCK... Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:13:31 +0100 Jon said: Rich, did he crosspost to Culture? No, not this time. Rich Small blessings, at least. Brin-l.com is back up, btw. Am sure it simply has a new host, but didn't bother to check. Jon Tempest in a Teacup Maru _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: STOP YOUR CYBER-TERRORISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (fwd) (fwd)
Rich, You didn't include complete headers. Can you either post the complete email, with headers, or check it out carefully yourself to see if it is genuine or forged? Also, I don't understand why they didn't send a similar reply to me or Nick. On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 10:12:48AM +0100, Richard Baker wrote: *** Begin of forwarded message *** Date: 13/06/2003 07:40 From: Freeler Abuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: STOP YOUR CYBER-TERRORISM!! (fwd) --- Forwarded message follows --- Would you please be so kind to inform your list that we contacted this user?? It is of no use to send 30+ emails to this email adres since it will not speed up things ;-) We really do what we can. Regards, [EMAIL PROTECTED] *** End of forwarded message *** ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Test Results
Read it. Read it. Read it. Sticks fingers in ears Read it. William Taylor It should be easy to figure out which one was Ronn's ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: STOP YOUR CYBER-TERRORISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (fwd) (fwd)
You didn't include complete headers. Can you either post the complete email, with headers, or check it out carefully yourself to see if it is genuine or forged? Here it is (I edited out the On Friday... line from my earlier forward for the sake of neatness). Since then, I've had a brief exchange of emails with Patrick Ale at freeler.nl, explaining briefly what had happened. In the end, he asked me if I could read emails in Dutch, I said I couldn't, and he said he'd received a long email from Jeroen and would try to get me a translation by Monday. Rich --- Return-Path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: from smtp05.freeler.nl (smtp05.freeler.nl [213.218.75.234]) by venus.he.net (8.8.6p2003-03-31/8.8.2) with ESMTP id AAA21276 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:40:21 -0700 Received: (qmail 30844 invoked from network); 13 Jun 2003 07:40:20 - Received: from unknown (HELO lilith) ([195.7.147.34]) (envelope-sender [EMAIL PROTECTED]) by smtp05.freeler.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 13 Jun 2003 07:40:20 - From: Freeler Abuse [EMAIL PROTECTED] Organization: Freeler B.V To: Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: STOP YOUR CYBER-TERRORISM!! (fwd) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:40:19 +0200 User-Agent: KMail/1.5 References: [EMAIL PROTECTED] In-Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8 Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Content-Disposition: inline Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-UIDL: nDV!DVX!2[!a#! On Friday 13 June 2003 09:28, you wrote: Would you please be so kind to inform your list that we contacted this user?? It is of no use to send 30+ emails to this email adres since it will not speed up things ;-) We really do what we can. Regards, [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
Jon said: Because a largely underdog-sympathetic media in Europe has framed this as a poor, defenseless arab people fighting against an all-powerful jewish state. In your opinion, are the European media more biased than the US media? In my opinion, the British media, at least, are considerably more balanced than those US news channels I see (CNN, Fox). I can't speak for newspapers though - I just read the (London) Sunday Times, New Scientist and sometimes the Economist. This is a good question. I haven't seen a single logical answer posted to either the Culture list or by any of our European members that explains why they think Palestinian terrorism is appropriate. I haven't seen anything posted in either place in favour of Palestinian (or any other) terrorism either. Unless it was posted by Jeroen, in which case I might have missed it because I seldom read anything he writes now. In my opinion, you cannot judge all liberals or democrats by articles you read in the papers or hear on talk shows. Nor can you judge all Europeans in such a way. How many Europeans do we have left here anyway? Is it just three? Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: WHO THE F*CK...
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 10:26:20AM -0400, Jon Gabriel wrote: From: Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: WHO THE FUCK... Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 09:13:31 +0100 Jon said: Rich, did he crosspost to Culture? No, not this time. Rich Small blessings, at least. Brin-l.com is back up, btw. Am sure it simply has a new host, but didn't bother to check. It's on www.geocities.com/brin_l/ -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: WHO THE F*CK...
From: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: WHO THE FUCK... Jon said: Rich, did he crosspost to Culture? No, not this time. Rich Small blessings, at least. Brin-l.com is back up, btw. Am sure it simply has a new host, but didn't bother to check. When I first saw this my response was What the f*ck???. Then I realized that my email was being bounced because of the profanity in the header. So I only saw this when it was masked. I've never been so glad we have a profanity filter! - jmh ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: STOP YOUR CYBER-TERRORISM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! (fwd) (fwd)
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 03:33:08PM +0100, Richard Baker wrote: You didn't include complete headers. Can you either post the complete email, with headers, or check it out carefully yourself to see if it is genuine or forged? Here it is (I edited out the On Friday... line from my earlier forward for the sake of neatness). Since then, I've had a brief exchange of emails with Patrick Ale at freeler.nl, explaining briefly what had happened. In the end, he asked me if I could read emails in Dutch, I said I couldn't, and he said he'd received a long email from Jeroen and would try to get me a translation by Monday. Okay, I'm mostly convinced it is genuine (195.7.147.34 resolves to mail.hq.freeler.nl, and the rest of the chain seems reasonable). Next question is, what exactly does he mean by contacted? If all he did was relay the complaint to Jeroen, that is insufficient. Received: from unknown (HELO lilith) ([195.7.147.34]) (envelope-sender [EMAIL PROTECTED]) by smtp05.freeler.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 13 Jun 2003 07:40:20 - On Friday 13 June 2003 09:28, you wrote: Would you please be so kind to inform your list that we contacted this user?? It is of no use to send 30+ emails to this email adres since it will not speed up things ;-) We really do what we can. Regards, [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 11:06:24AM -0500, Steve Sloan II wrote: Instead, Europe decided to pay its debt by giving the Jews somebody else's land. Steve, I was wondering if you could give a capsule summary of that transfer. I don't know much about it, but I have wondered how it occurred. Most importantly I'd like to know exactly when, how, and by whom were individual Palestinians evicted from their homes and their land. If you have a good reference on the web, that would be helpful, too. Did it happen before the 1948 war? Did Britain go in an kick Palestinians out of their homes? Did it occur during the first Middle-East War? If so, how did the Israelis have the resources to go house to house to evict the Palestinians while fighting off virtually all the other Middle-Eastern countries? Or was it more of a scorched earth sort of thing, the Palestinians fleeing because their land and homes were in the middle of a war zone? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Code and documentation (was Re: Scientific method)
Jan said: ...We are in complete agreement...I think. Yes, I think so too. What much of it comes down to is that code isn't primarily a method for humans to communicate with machines but rather for humans to communicate with humans: themselves, other developers working at the same time, and future developers. I totally agree that having too much documentation (in the broad sense of other stuff that isn't source code) isn't helpful - the trick is getting just the right amount to communicate with maximum clarity. Unless of course you just start the project as if it were already in maintenece. Yes, indeed. Of course, you don't always have that luxury. and the initial developers might not even be available for consultation. Strange how the suspects allways seem to disaper. People move on. What's the mean time spent in a job in the software industry: two or three years? So Rich, don't blame a lack of documentation for poorly factored code. Instead of If these idiots would just have documented..., think If these idiots would just have writen Unit Tests or Contracts, written clear code with short methods and discriptive naming, used codeing conventions like verticle alignment, used comments when the intent was not obvious, and documented thier intent in a short and concise manner. Amen. Agile Maru Rich VFP Extreme ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: general rambling
At 10:20 AM 6/13/03 -0400, Erik Reuter wrote: On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 12:27:17AM -0400, Kevin Tarr wrote: my choices are to either stick my fingers in my ears and say lalalalalalala, which would make it tough to type, or turn up the metal. You could insert earplugs, or better yet, you can buy ear-covers (sort of like you see ground traffic controllers at airports wearing). Or you could get a portable cassette or CD player with headphones, and listen to the type of music you want all the time . . . -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Test Results
At 10:27 AM 6/13/03 -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Read it. Read it. Read it. Sticks fingers in ears Read it. William Taylor It should be easy to figure out which one was Ronn's Some list software though it's obvious now that the software in use on this list is not included is set up to reject messages with test in the subject line, so a certain amount of cleverness in disguising test messages is required. Too bad ^G^G^G^G^G^G^G^G^G^G^G^G^G^G in the body of an e-mail message doesn't work any more . . . Had This Been An Actual Emergency, We Wouldn't Have Had A Clue What To Do Either Maru -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: WHO THE F*CK...
At 09:43 AM 6/13/03 -0500, Horn, John wrote: From: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: WHO THE FÜCK... Jon said: Rich, did he crosspost to Culture? No, not this time. Rich Small blessings, at least. Brin-l.com is back up, btw. Am sure it simply has a new host, but didn't bother to check. When I first saw this my response was What the f*ck???. Then I realized that my email was being bounced because of the profanity in the header. So I only saw this when it was masked. I've never been so glad we have a profanity filter! I don't edit such words when replying or forwarding just because I'm a prude . . . -- Ronn! :) God bless America, Land that I love! Stand beside her, and guide her Thru the night with a light from above. From the mountains, to the prairies, To the oceans, white with foam God bless America! My home, sweet home. -- Irving Berlin (1888-1989) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, June 13, 2003 11:34 AM Subject: Re: Where are the European hypocrites? On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 11:06:24AM -0500, Steve Sloan II wrote: Instead, Europe decided to pay its debt by giving the Jews somebody else's land. Steve, I was wondering if you could give a capsule summary of that transfer. I don't know much about it, but I have wondered how it occurred. Most importantly I'd like to know exactly when, how, and by whom were individual Palestinians evicted from their homes and their land. If you have a good reference on the web, that would be helpful, too. Did it happen before the 1948 war? Did Britain go in an kick Palestinians out of their homes? Did it occur during the first Middle-East War? If so, how did the Israelis have the resources to go house to house to evict the Palestinians while fighting off virtually all the other Middle-Eastern countries? Or was it more of a scorched earth sort of thing, the Palestinians fleeing because their land and homes were in the middle of a war zone? From what I've seen from many sources, after the war was won by Israel, the Arab countries urged the Arabs in Israel to leave so that they may destroy Israel with impunity. Most left, but some stayed. The ones that stayed and their descendants are now about 20% of the population, IIRC. The ones that left were kept in refugee camps as a means of putting political pressure on Israel and highlighting the injustice of Israel's existence. It was felt that, if the Palestinians were integrated into Jordanian, Egyptian, Syrian, etc. societies, the push to eliminate Israel would lose some momentum. I think this is a reasonable assumption, but not a reasonable action. Having said that, I have no doubt that there were instances of Jewish injustice against Arabs. But, the fact that Arabs who stayed ended up as citizens of Israel indicates that there was at least some effort to treat Arabs reasonably. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Powers of 10 - Java Applet
In http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/ you can find a very nice demonstration of zooming from the galaxy view down to the quarks. Regards Armin Freiberg ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon soccer FOOTBALL game
Is there a name for a shot where the ball is cradled on the ankles and both legs are lifted and snapped in a whip-like motion? Yeah: Falling On Your Ass. It's vaguely similar to the bicycle kick or overhead though. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: general rambling
From: Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... but I like hearing music I don't own. ... Try : http://www.limewire.com/ http://kazaa.com/ http://www.gnutella.com/ ...and an mp3 player. ;-) *Anyone have digital cable? The selections for me are too general. You listen to 80s music channel, you get some good songs, some you say 'wow I haven't thought about that song in a long time', but you also get a lot of 'please shut it off, I never want to hear that song again, ever!' songs. I have digital cable, but haven't spent more than 2 minutes total, listening to the music on there. Anyway this week I found out my long awaited promotion/raise, and the many, many, months of backpay, was not going to happen. My immediate bosses were very mad on my behalf, but they can't do anything more. It was squashed by an HR department that has no idea what our department does. They think mainframe programmers aren't important, yet the mainframe systems handles all the data and the PCs systems piggy-back off of them. I've worked on systems that control billions of dollars, effect millions of people, yet I don't have enough responsibility to justify the promotion. I have a few options left, but I feel beat down by the system. I had the chance to switch departments, which would have gotten me the promotion, but I choose to stay out of loyalty and I like what I'm doing. Hindsight is 20/20, but this sucks. I mean, I took a pay cut to start this job, expecting I would get a raise quickly. Wow, that sucks. That kind of thing would gnaw at me until I moved on to a better job, found some way to exact revenge, or ideally, both! Seriously, though, I think it's your boss's job to find a way to make it happen for you if he really does think you deserve it. _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
Would the Israelis be willing to give up all of their West Bank settlements at this point? If they did, would all of the Palestinians then quit calling for the annihilation of all Jews? Would they give up their attempts to claim Jerusalem? One thing that needs to be kept in mind is that groups such as Hamas do not object to the occupation - they object to Israel's very existence. If you read their official position documents, it's very clear that they have no intention of stopping until there is no more Israel. A Palestinian state in the West Bank and Gaza, living in peace with Israel, is completely unacceptable to them. This is not, in my opinion, an argument against a Palestinian state. However, until that state (or its rudimentary proto-government, the current Palestinian Authority) demonstrates BOTH a will AND a capability to subjugate Hamas (the way the nascent Israel stifled the Stern Gang and the Irgun) it will be almost impossible for that Palestinian state to be created. Which is precisely why Hamas is doing what it is doing (other than the joy they get from massacreing helpless Jewish - and other - civilians): they DON'T WANT PEACE. It's an open question whether the PA - or even some Israelis - want peace, but it is blindingly clear that Hamas definitely doesn't. Hamas wants chaos and suffering, hoping that it will lead to more and more Palestinians being desperate enough to follow them. They WANT Israeli attacks and repression. They think it will lead to their desired outcome. Until Hamas is destroyed, either by Israel or by the PA, there's no hope for peace. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
Thanks, Dan. On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 12:19:09PM -0500, Dan Minette wrote: From what I've seen from many sources, after the war was won by Israel, the Arab countries urged the Arabs in Israel to leave so that they may destroy Israel with impunity. Most left, but some stayed. The ones that stayed and their descendants are now about 20% of the population, IIRC. So, would it be correct to say there was a mass exodus of Palestinians after (and possibly during) the 1948 war, due mostly to fear and uncertainty about whether their homes would be attacked (by either Arabs or Israel)? If that is a fair assessment, then I have another question. Were any (or most) of the refugees able/permitted to return to their homes a year or so later, when their fear and uncertainty had subsided? If they were not permitted, who stopped them? If they were permitted, then why didn't they soon return when they saw that their homes in Israel seemed moderately safe and attractive compared to the refugee camps? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
The same goes for Israel. Shortly after WWII, the least unfair solution probably would have been taking a good-sized chunk of land from Germany to form a Jewish homeland, while negotiating with the Middle East world to get them visitation rights to their holy sites. Instead, Europe decided to pay its debt by giving the Jews somebody else's land. It's too late to change that decision now. The best we can do now is try to get a decent two-state solution to work. You're ignoring the Balfour Declaration and the fact that there was a nascent Israel in Palestine - 1948 didn't just happen out of thin air. You're also ignoring the fact that the UN declared a partition in 1947, but the Arabs said no. There should have been a Palestinian state alongside Israel, but as always the Arabs and Palestinians refused anything other than total victory (from their point of view). Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 01:39:33PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You're ignoring the Balfour Declaration and the fact that there was a nascent Israel in Palestine - 1948 didn't just happen out of thin air. You're also ignoring the fact that the UN declared a partition in 1947, but the Arabs said no. What right did the UN have to tell Arabs how they would be governed, or to take away their homes? The only thing close to fair I can come up with is if the residents of the area voted whether to form a state of Israel, and if the vote passed (maybe it would be necessary to require a super-majority to pass), then the new government should offer to pay a fair price for the homes and land of anyone who didn't want to be part of Israel. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
In a message dated 6/13/03 1:39:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If that is a fair assessment, then I have another question. Were any (or most) of the refugees able/permitted to return to their homes a year or so later, when their fear and uncertainty had subsided? If they were not permitted, who stopped them? If they were permitted, then why didn't they soon return when they saw that their homes in Israel seemed moderately safe and attractive compared to the refugee camps? They have not been permitted to return, and the Arabs have never wanted them to return. The Arabs have intentionally kept them in the camps (which they have deliberately kept in as appalling condition as they can) in order to have a reason not to recognize Israel (We can't recognize Israel until the refugee problem is solved - ignoring the fact that they themselves are responsible for the refugee problem in the first place) and so they have a ready-made excuse for their own political stagnation - whenever their domestic populations get pissed at all the repression and corruption, they can say, Everyone boo Israel! and hope that their people will be distracted from their own abysmal internal situations. The Palestinians have got to be the worst governed and worst led people in the world. They have been betrayed by their own leaders and their so-called Arab brothers almost without cessation for the last half century. I can't think of anything that has ever been done in their name that has not turned out to be a total disaster for them. The tragedy is, they have so much in common with Israelis - and so little in common with the rest of the Arabs. In fact, a lot of Arabs hate Palestinians, they fear and mistrust them. (Remember what happened in Kuwait in 1991.) Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
In a message dated 6/13/03 1:46:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What right did the UN have to tell Arabs how they would be governed, or to take away their homes? The land was under UN jurisdiction, that's what right. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Powers of 10 - Java Applet
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 07:18:27PM +0200, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In http://micro.magnet.fsu.edu/primer/java/scienceopticsu/powersof10/ you can find a very nice demonstration of zooming from the galaxy view down to the quarks. Regards Armin Freiberg Below are the complete headers from one of the spams Jeroen sent me two copies of. Notice the part for [EMAIL PROTECTED]. Can you explain this? From [EMAIL PROTECTED] Thu Jun 12 18:36:35 2003 From ereuter Thu Jun 12 18:36:35 2003 Return-path: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Envelope-to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Delivery-date: Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:36:35 -0400 Received: from smtp.easydns.com ([205.210.42.30] helo=rack5.easydns.com) by erikreuter with esmtp (Exim 3.36 #1 (Debian)) id 19QagN-00031Z-00 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:36:35 -0400 Received: from yiwen.pair.com (yiwen.pair.com [209.68.2.91]) by rack5.easydns.com (Postfix) with SMTP id 5C7ED2CF81 for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Thu, 12 Jun 2003 18:36:32 -0400 (EDT) Received: (qmail 33313 invoked by uid 3205); 12 Jun 2003 22:36:33 - Delivered-To: ereuter-erikreuter:[EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Envelope-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Received: (qmail 33305 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2003 22:36:32 - Received: from smtp06.freeler.nl (213.218.75.235) by erikreuter.net with SMTP; 12 Jun 2003 22:36:32 - Received: (qmail 21375 invoked from network); 12 Jun 2003 22:36:23 - Received: from unknown (HELO Greyhound.freeler.nl) ([62.21.202.185]) (envelope-sender [EMAIL PROTECTED]) by smtp06.freeler.nl (qmail-ldap-1.03) with SMTP for [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 12 Jun 2003 22:36:23 - Message-Id: [EMAIL PROTECTED] X-Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]@pop3.freeler.nl (Unverified) X-Mailer: QUALCOMM Windows Eudora Version 5.1 X-Priority: 1 (Highest) Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 00:36:23 +0200 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Jeroen van Baardwijk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: STOP YOUR CYBER-TERRORISM!! Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed Status: RO Content-Length: 1028 Lines: 24 -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
From: Steve Sloan II [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Where are the European hypocrites? Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 11:06:24 -0500 Jon Gabriel wrote: You know, I do sympathize with this point of view, but by those standards, the United States belongs to Native Americans, doesn't it? (or do you feel perhaps that because they lost the war(s), they lost their rights for the land? I'm curious about your opinion.) For both issues... it's too late. I wish early American settlers hadn't done such horrible things to the native Americans, but it's too late to change that. The best we can do now is try to get the survivors integrated into American society and economy, without destroying their traditions -- something the Bureau of Indian Affairs has done a lousy job of so far. *general agreement* Have you seen either of Chris Eyre's recent films: Smoke Signals or Skins? The same goes for Israel. Shortly after WWII, the least unfair solution probably would have been taking a good-sized chunk of land from Germany to form a Jewish homeland, while negotiating with the Middle East world to get them visitation rights to their holy sites. Instead, Europe decided to pay its debt by giving the Jews somebody else's land. It's too late to change that decision now. The best we can do now is try to get a decent two-state solution to work. I'm unsure this solution would have satisfied the Jews of that time. For hundreds of years, they had prayed that Jerusalem would be returned to them. I'm unsure 'visiting rights' would have satisfied them. Jon _ Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: WHO THE F*CK...
From: Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED],'Killer Bs Discussion' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: WHO THE F*CK... Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 12:03:21 -0500 At 09:43 AM 6/13/03 -0500, Horn, John wrote: From: Jon Gabriel [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: WHO THE FÜCK... Jon said: Rich, did he crosspost to Culture? No, not this time. Rich Small blessings, at least. Brin-l.com is back up, btw. Am sure it simply has a new host, but didn't bother to check. When I first saw this my response was What the f*ck???. Then I realized that my email was being bounced because of the profanity in the header. So I only saw this when it was masked. I've never been so glad we have a profanity filter! I don't edit such words when replying or forwarding just because I'm a prude . . . Well, I'm not a prude, but did realize that some people's filters might have stopped the post for that reason. :) Jon _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 01:48:08PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 6/13/03 1:46:35 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: What right did the UN have to tell Arabs how they would be governed, or to take away their homes? The land was under UN jurisdiction, that's what right. That doesn't sound fair to me, unless the residents of the land voted to put it under UN jurisdiction. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 01:47:24PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 6/13/03 1:39:41 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If that is a fair assessment, then I have another question. Were any (or most) of the refugees able/permitted to return to their homes a year or so later, when their fear and uncertainty had subsided? If they were not permitted, who stopped them? If they were permitted, then why didn't they soon return when they saw that their homes in Israel seemed moderately safe and attractive compared to the refugee camps? They have not been permitted to return, and the Arabs have never wanted them to return. The Arabs have intentionally kept them in the camps (which they have deliberately kept in as appalling condition as they can) in order to have a reason not to recognize Israel (We can't recognize Israel until the refugee problem is solved So, are you saying that the Arab states in the region were actually holding the Palestinians prisoner in the refugee camps, forcibly preventing them from returning to their homes? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: general rambling
From: Bryon Daly [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: general rambling Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 13:28:33 -0400 From: Kevin Tarr [EMAIL PROTECTED] ... but I like hearing music I don't own. ... Try : http://www.limewire.com/ http://kazaa.com/ http://www.gnutella.com/ ...and an mp3 player. ;-) Urgh. You'd be better off trying to access any of the alt.binaries.mp3 newsgroups instead of opening the file-sharing capabilities on your work computer. Not the best idea if your company does anything, say... confidential. *Anyone have digital cable? The selections for me are too general. You listen to 80s music channel, you get some good songs, some you say 'wow I haven't thought about that song in a long time', but you also get a lot of 'please shut it off, I never want to hear that song again, ever!' songs. I have digital cable, but haven't spent more than 2 minutes total, listening to the music on there. My neighbor leaves it on during the day for her dogs. My personal opinion is that it's not worth the electrical expense of leaving a tv running everyday when she has a perfectly good stereo, but what do I know? :) Oh, and no, she never listens to it herself. Complained that they don't play songs she'd ever listen to. Jon _ STOP MORE SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 02:10:44PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 6/13/03 2:04:08 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: So, are you saying that the Arab states in the region were actually holding the Palestinians prisoner in the refugee camps, forcibly preventing them from returning to their homes? More or less. They couldn't go to Israel, Why, specifically, could they not go to Israel in, say, late 1949 or 1950? Were they forcibly prevented? By whom? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Hoon soccer FOOTBALL game
In a message dated 6/13/2003 10:28:45 AM US Mountain Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Is there a name for a shot where the ball is cradled on the ankles and both legs are lifted and snapped in a whip-like motion? Yeah: Falling On Your Ass. It's vaguely similar to the bicycle kick or overhead though. Tom Beck I was thinking the Hoon might be better able to do a three point landing: hand, hand and ass. I want something unexpected. A human will know that this silly shot won't deliver very much power. So they won't expect it from a hoon until it's too late. I'm also wondering if they can do a sweep kick like a sling... The stranger the better. William Taylor ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
It's kind of late to worry about that now. I have trouble reconciling that statement with someone who has an interest in understanding history. Come one, how many subjugated peoples in the entirety of world history got to vote on who ruled them? They had never voted to be part of the Ottoman Empire, either, so what right did the Ottoman Turks ever have to rule them? That sounds like a Gautam-style argument! I don't understand. It's actually a recognition of history. Things we wouldn't do now were done in the past. But we can't go back and undo every single act of injustice that ever took place anywhere. All we can do is understand them. The facts are, the Arabs did not vote for the partition in 1947, but they did not vote for the splintering of the Ottoman Empire into Syria, Jordan, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, etc., either They did not vote for anything, ever. They are still not allowed to vote for anything important. They could have had a Palestinian state in 1947. They refused. Jordan controlled the West Bank from 1948 to 1967, and Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip from 1948 to 1967. Why didn't they proclaim a Palestinian state in those territories during that period? They could have and nobody could have stopped them. So even if the creation of Israel was a monstrous injustice, which I do not for a second think, was the only possible solution to that to be to hold out, if necessary forever, waiting for the perfect solution (perfect in Arab extremists' minds, note) rather than take some admittedly less than perfect interim step? Israel was willing to take whatever the UN gave them in 1947; the Arabs held out for everything. How come the Arabs never get any blame for this? I repeat my point, that the Palestinians have been utterly betrayed at every moment in their sorry history by those who claim to speak for them. If only they would realize this and make true peace. They could have a state tomorrow if they would really do this. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
In a message dated 6/13/03 2:16:38 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why, specifically, could they not go to Israel in, say, late 1949 or 1950? Were they forcibly prevented? By whom? By that point, I think, the Israelis wouldn't let them back (neither would the Arab countries). And before you start bitching about Israel, keep in mind that hundreds of thousands of Jews living in Arab countries were expelled from those countries too and were taken in by Israel - where they instantly became citizens. As I said, not one Arab country has ever permitted the Palestinian refugees in their countries to become citizens. Tom Beck www.prydonians.org www.mercerjewishsingles.org I always knew I'd see the first man on the Moon. I never dreamed I'd see the last. - Dr Jerry Pournelle ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Are you a model citizen?
Horn, John wrote: From: Adam C. Lipscomb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Great idea! I've got a Secret Volcano Lair, can you bring the Plutonium and the Deadly Bikini-clad Vixens? Julia! Kat! Dee! Let's see who else do we have... Deborah! Oh man, I know I'm missing someone... Oh yeah, Ritu! and Ticia! Too bad Sonja's not around anymore... vbg - jmh Gonna Get Slapped Big Time Maru! Only because I don't have a bikini I fit into any more, thank you. :) And I don't think I could model anything except maternity clothing at this point. (Bringing us back to the actual subject line, whee!) Julia Ever Expanding Belly Maru (and I am *sooo* glad to have Moisturel!) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Well, most American Jews care quite a lot about Israel, and most of us are not conservative (some of us are Conservative, but that's whole different row of pews...) Tom Beck Yeah, but if you worked out the percentages, it will still be most. I do wonder if, at some point, the difference between the left and right on Israel might cause you to reevaluate some of your views on politics. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Is it a crime to urge another to commit suicide?
Nick Arnett wrote: Does anyone happen to know if -- and where -- it is against the law to urge another person to commit suicide? Nick Well, my mom has been out of touch with the suicide prevention group she volunteered for when she lived in New Hampshire, and isn't really up on laws, but she doesn't think so. If someone were on a ledge, and you yelled, Jump!, they might get you for disorderly conduct, though. At least, that's what she thought. Sorry we couldn't be more helpful. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Would the Israelis be willing to give up all of their West Bank settlements at this point? Doug If not for security concerns, yes, absolutely (I think). There's a small fringe of the Israeli population that wants to annex the West Bank and the Gaza Strip permanently, but they're a very small fringe. They're holding onto the areas right now for the very sensible reason that if they let go, the government that would take over would be an active sponsor of terrorism with the stated agenda of eradicating Israel. Would _you_ want a country on your border that wanted to destroy you and thought a reasonable tactic was brainwashing people into committing suicide using explosives next to kindergartens? = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: WMD
--- Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: But I would say almost the same thing about you when someone is critical of Bush or the U.S. Doug But, Doug, if you read my posts with any degree of attention, you'd be wrong. I have variously criticized Bush Administration policies on a fair variety of fronts. I haven't on Iraq because not only do I think I couldn't do better, I can barely imagine _anyone_ doing better. As for the US - my record of criticisms of domestic and foreign policy (fair ones) stands with anyone. I just look that way sometimes on this list because, to be blunt, anything short of hysterical anti-Americanism often looks like being a far right-winger on this list. Even more so because - unlike a lot of people here - I don't get all turned on and enthusiastic by self-flagellation. It's not my thing, so I don't post as much on those issues. It doesn't make me feel superior to go on and on about the bad things my country did (or might not have done). I take comfort in the fact that politics on this list are, to a large extent, politics inside the liberal echo chamber. Most of the politically vocal Americans on this list are off the liberal deep end compared to the American population as a whole. That's not in the least an exaggeration. President Bush's unfavorables in some polls run around 20%. What do you think the ratio is on this list? = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Twenty (or so) Questions, was Re: Plonkworthy?
--- Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Julia said: OK, why *did* it survive? Do you know? I don't know about cystic fibrosis in detail, but it's presumably because having one copy of the gene conveys some advantage that outweighs the problems involved with having two copies. Another example is the incidence of thalassemia in Ferrara, Italy. In that region, 18% of people are born with one copy of the thalassemia gene and 1% with two copies. The unfortunate people with two copies develop the disease, and nearly all of them die young. However, until WW2, Ferrara had been afflicted with malaria for centuries, and the gene for thalassemia conveys resistance to malaria. About one in ten people with no thalassemia gene died of malaria whereas those with one or two thalassemia genes almost always survived. The incidence of the gene was thus kept at an equilibrium level: having the occasional descendent who dies of thalassemia is outweighed by having lots of descendents who don't die of malaria. Rich Not sure if thalassemia is a European term for sickle cell anemia, which has the same effects. One copy of the cystic fibrosis gene conveys a high degree of resistance to cholera, so CF is prevalent in areas where there have been high historic rates of cholera infection. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Are you a model citizen?
Kevin Tarr wrote: Of course grey hairs are creeping in. Is this what life is all about? Seems so. Well, I don't know as you could really call mine *grey*, but there are more and more white ones creeping in. I expect that when I'm 60, it'll be totally white, and I'll still run around with it down past my shoulders and not give a fig as to what anyone else thinks about it. (I'll probably still wear tie-dyed t-shirts and comfortable shorts in the summer, as well.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: general rambling
Kevin Tarr wrote: *Anyone have digital cable? The selections for me are too general. You listen to 80s music channel, you get some good songs, some you say 'wow I haven't thought about that song in a long time', but you also get a lot of 'please shut it off, I never want to hear that song again, ever!' songs. When XM came out, I stood in circuit city, programmed a receiver for six presets that I liked, then stood there for an hour listening, switching channels to see what the stations were playing. There were many, many minutes that went by where I couldn't find anything to listen to. Yes I have no life. You have a life for some definition of life. We have digital cable. We tend to set it to the light classical music channel as a default for when the video tape ends. (Nothing like having it set on ST:TNG when you start and having it on wrestling when the tape ends) It's not too bad, for the most part, although there are some things I'll get tired of. But I love it when they play Bach. I suppose an all-Bach channel would be out of the question, but it's nice to daydream, isn't it? And the cable is out. But I have satellite TV. What's that? Doesn't cable TV advertise that Satellite Tv doesn't work when it rains? HAHAHAHAHA, F***Y** comcast. We have cable when it rains. What we've been having problems with is internet, which is through the cable company, going down for a couple of minutes at a time when it's raining. Gets very difficult to *do* stuff on-line. Not sure why that craps out and the cable doesn't, unless there's some problem between Georgetown and College Station that gets rain at some of the same times we do. (The traffic gets routed through something in College Station, apparently, at least that's what the tech told me the time everything was totally down for over an hour and I called in about it.) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Twenty (or so) Questions, was Re: Plonkworthy?
Gautam said: Not sure if thalassemia is a European term for sickle cell anemia, which has the same effects. No, they aren't the same thing. I chose thalassemia for my example because it's less well known than sickle cell anaemia. Rich ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Scientific method: was Re: Twenty (or so) Questions, was Re:Plonkworthy?
Jan Coffey wrote: So Rich, don't blame a lack of documentation for poorly factored code. Instead of If these idiots would just have documented..., think If these idiots would just have writen Unit Tests or Contracts, written clear code with short methods and discriptive naming, used codeing conventions like verticle alignment, used comments when the intent was not obvious, and documented thier intent in a short and concise manner. Can you explain factored? Thanks! Julia Curiosity Maru ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 03:06:24PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I don't understand. That makes two of us. But I wasn't interested in a rationalization of bad behavior, which is what I thought I was getting. I said it seemed unfair. You seemed to disagree and gave examples of similar poor behavior. I don't dispute that there was a lot of unfairness in the world at that time and historically. Do you dispute that the treatment of the people living in that region was unfair? Because it sounded to me like you WERE disputing it. Anyway, I am trying to get a clear a picture as I can. I believe if I were in the position of the Palestinians we were discussing, I would think it was unfair. Also, please don't assume that by making this statement I am in any way implying that I think Palestinians should be given right of return. If and when I do have something to say about that, it will be spelled out clearly. It's actually a recognition of history. Things we wouldn't do now were done in the past. But we can't go back and undo every single act of injustice that ever took place anywhere. All we can do is understand them. Yes, I think we are in complete agreement. I am looking for understanding. They could have had a Palestinian state in 1947. They refused. Who specifically refused? The Arabs living in Israel and Palestine? Or do you mean Arabs, collectively, signified by the attack of Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Lebanon? Jordan controlled the West Bank from 1948 to 1967, and Egypt controlled the Gaza Strip from 1948 to 1967. Why didn't they proclaim a Palestinian state in those territories during that period? I suppose because the leaders of those countries were still trying to bring about Israel's destruction, and the Palestinan refugee situation seemed to them to help their cause. could have and nobody could have stopped them. So even if the creation of Israel was a monstrous injustice, which I do not for a second think, was the only possible solution to that to be to hold out, if necessary forever, waiting for the perfect solution (perfect in Arab extremists' minds, note) rather than take some admittedly less than perfect interim step? I have no idea what the solution would be. I'm just trying to understand the situation and history. Israel was willing to take whatever the UN gave them in 1947; the Arabs held out for everything. How come the Arabs never get any blame for this? I am confused by the ambiguous phrase the Arabs. Who, specifically, do you want to have more blame? I repeat my point, that the Palestinians have been utterly betrayed at every moment in their sorry history by those who claim to speak for them. If only they would realize this and make true peace. They could have a state tomorrow if they would really do this. Yes, I read your point the first time. It does not seem inconsistent with the facts that I know. But it also doesn't sound like a feasbile solution at the present time. Dan convinced me last year with some survey results that a significant fraction (was it 70%, Dan?) of the population of historic Palestine is in agreement with the general attitude and policies of Hamas and Islamic Jihad. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
--- Steve Sloan II [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The same goes for Israel. Shortly after WWII, the least unfair solution probably would have been taking a good-sized chunk of land from Germany to form a Jewish homeland, while negotiating with the Middle East world to get them visitation rights to their holy sites. Instead, Europe decided to pay its debt by giving the Jews somebody else's land. It's too late to change that decision now. The best we can do now is try to get a decent two-state solution to work. OK, this is one of those irritating cliches that people keep repeating. How _did_ Europe pay its debt by giving the Jews somebody else's land. Did European troops do any fighting in the Israeli War of Indpendence? No. Did European countries give diplomatic support? No - Harry Truman forced the European countries to recognize Israel. Arms and weapons? Not really - Ben-Gurion had to go through phenomenal hoops to smuggle weapons into what would become Israel. Israel was established in pretty much the same way that most countries are established - a local population fought a war of independence. In many ways it wasn't that different from us in 1776 - except, of course, that the British didn't intend to kill every American colonist, as the Arabs _did_ and _do_. Israel doesn't depend on Europe for protection. It doesn't even depend on the US for protection, although the US doesn't hurt. Israel is an independent state because the people of Israel are willing to do whatever it takes to make it and keep it that way. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 03:08:06PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 6/13/03 2:16:38 PM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Why, specifically, could they not go to Israel in, say, late 1949 or 1950? Were they forcibly prevented? By whom? By that point, I think, the Israelis wouldn't let them back (neither would the Arab countries). And before you start bitching about Israel, Did I bitch about Israel? When? -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Code and documentation (was Re: Scientific method)
Richard Baker wrote: People move on. What's the mean time spent in a job in the software industry: two or three years? In the mid-1990s in graphics, it was 18 months. At least, that's what someone at my husband's company determined when they were trying to figure out how to persuade people to stay longer than 30-36 months; turned out they were beating the curve. I don't have any more general or more recent stats. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 01:04:50PM -0700, Gautam Mukunda wrote: local population fought a war of independence. In many ways it wasn't that different from us in 1776 - except, of course, that the British didn't intend to kill every American colonist, as the Arabs _did_ and _do_. Israel doesn't depend on Europe for protection. I think the best analogy I've heard so far was Native Americans = Palestinians. Although I would formulate an alternate history where the migrants from Asia to North America never became isolated from Asia, and so most of the western and midwestern states were populated by more powerful Native American civilizations than actually existed. Then the Pilgrims arrived and began trying to establish their colony, and the Native Americans wanted to kill them all, and were possibly powerful enough to do it. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
--- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 11:06:24AM -0500, Steve Sloan II wrote: I was wondering if you could give a capsule summary of that transfer. I don't know much about it, but I have wondered how it occurred. Most importantly I'd like to know exactly when, how, and by whom were individual Palestinians evicted from their homes and their land. If you have a good reference on the web, that would be helpful, too. Did it happen before the 1948 war? Did Britain go in an kick Palestinians out of their homes? Did it occur during the first Middle-East War? If so, how did the Israelis have the resources to go house to house to evict the Palestinians while fighting off virtually all the other Middle-Eastern countries? Or was it more of a scorched earth sort of thing, the Palestinians fleeing because their land and homes were in the middle of a war zone? Well, I'm not Steve, but you're getting into what might be the single most contentious issue in all of historical research right now. I think one of Leon Uris's novels actually does a really good job of telling the story - unfortunately I can't remember which one. My best guesstimate of the slowly evolving historical consensus based on the revisionist work of the new generation of Israeli historians, who tend to be fairly critical of the earlier, very pro-Zionist interpretations, goes something like this: The Jews of the Middle East were a very large (some say majority) of the population of the area, despite the fact that their emigration to the region was extremely tightly restricted by the British, who did not similarly restrict Arab emigration. David Ben-Gurion was the most prominent leader (among many, including Begin, who was considerably more radical) of the Jewish forces opposing British rule of what was then called Palestine. In 1948 as British control over the area was steadily weakening (due to British weakness following the Second World War, among other things) Ben-Gurion and his fellows declared independence and the foundation of the state of Israel. The British basically chose not to get in the way (any longer). The surrounding states immediately declared war on Israel and invaded, calling on all Arabs in the region to leave until they could be repatriated behind the victorious Arab armies. The hot question is, of course, how many left voluntarily and how many left out of fear of Jewish attacks. Recent Israeli scholarship argues that the Irgun (Ben-Gurion's group, IIRC) has a pretty good record with regards to the Arab residents, while some of the more radical groups definitely did not. There was at least one massacre of innocent Arab residents in a village, and this certainly contributed to a general climate of fear among the Arab residents. On the whole, however, it does seem that most left voluntarily. At no point did Jewish forces engage in an ethnic cleansing campaign of forcing people out of their homes. Israeli sources have traditionally (until the past 10 years or so) argued that all the Palestinians left voluntarily, Arab ones that they were all forced out (conveniently ignoring the Arab governments urgings that they leave). Israel is a free society where academic dissent is encouraged and the open discussion of ideas is as easy as it is in the United States. Every Arab country is an autocratic police state. You tell me which one you think has more credibility :-) At any rate, the Arab governments invaded with armies that were quite well equipped and trained by Western forces. They were met by a lightly armed force that was largely made up of guerrilla who had fought the British. No one in the world had any doubt that the outcome would be a swift and certain Arab victory. Apparently no one told Ben-Gurion that, though. In what still ranks, to my mind, as one of the handful of most extraordinary military feats in human history, the Jewish forces successfully repulsed the Arab attacks, eventually doubling the size of the state of Israel, before a cease-fire was imposed by outside forces. Eliot Cohen's marvelous book _Supreme Command_ has a history of Ben-Gurion's efforts before the war to rebuild Irgun into a force capable of defeating the inevitable Arab attack. It was a remarkable achievement - he essentially held a several-month-long seminar on what Irgun would have to be, figured it out, then rebuilt it. Cohen believes that Ben-Gurion ranks with Lincoln and Churchill as among the greatest strategists in the history of democratic states. Steve Rosen (one of my profs at Harvard) believes that Lincoln might well be the finest strategist _ever_. I agree with that assessment - but Ben-Gurion isn't far behind and had, if anything, a more difficult task. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM).
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
--- Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In your opinion, are the European media more biased than the US media? In my opinion, the British media, at least, are considerably more balanced than those US news channels I see (CNN, Fox). I can't speak for newspapers though - I just read the (London) Sunday Times, New Scientist and sometimes the Economist. I think so, yes. Take a look at Anne Applebaum's excellent article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42230-2003Jun10.html on the extent to which European perspectives on the US are distorted - then think about how much worse it must be for Israel. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Where are the European hypocrites?
--- Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Which is approximately 50% of the world's population and the entire Jewish population of Israel. (Gautam may have known that, but I thought the 'irony' worth posting.) :( I did, which is why I chose the number. and most of them are conservatives? I don't agree with this. I am a somewhat middle-of-the road conservative, and I haven't met a single New York liberal who thinks the jewish population in Israel should be wiped out or that the Palestinian terrorism isn't horrible. Yeah, but I don't think there are many people in Europe who think that the Jewish population in Israel should be wiped out - although there _are_ many who don't seem to have much of a problem with Palestinian terrorism. But the opinion poll statistics suggest - quite strongly - that, if you're not Jewish the single most accurate predictor of sympathy for Israel is being a conservative. Just compare The Nation's take on Israel to National Review's and you tell me which one you feel more comfortable with. In my opinion, you cannot judge all liberals or democrats by articles you read in the papers or hear on talk shows. Nor can you judge most Democrats' opinions by their leaders' agendas in much the same way most Republicans' opinions cannot be judged by every word that falls from our President's mouth. You live here. Do you think the New York Post speaks for every Republican? Jon No, but according to every poll I've seen, Republicans are much more sympathetic to Israel than Democrats are. There's an interesting question of why that is, and a further one of how long it will be before that fact makes American Jews vote Republican more often, but that does seem to be the way the numbers work. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I read Dan's statement from the perspective of native North Americans. Try that in your analogy. Dean I did. How many native Americans are alive in the US today? If the number is higher than a few hundred, then that's higher than the number of Jews there are currently living in, oh, every Arab country put together. I rather think that the number is, in fact, more than a few hundred. I remain in my belief that the situation is somewhat different, however grasping the attempts at moral equivalence. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Where are the European hypocrites?
--- Jon Gabriel [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Yeah, but there have been Jews in that area since before recorded history and they made up a very large proportion of the population before the Israeli War of Independence. You know, I do sympathize with this point of view, but by those standards, the United States belongs to Native Americans, doesn't it? Well, which native Americans are you talking about? The ones who were there when the first colonists came? The ones who were wiped out by the ones who were there when the first colonists came? The ones who were wiped out by the ones who were wiped out by the ones who were there when the first colonists came? (or do you feel perhaps that because they lost the war(s), they lost their rights for the land? I'm curious about your opinion.) What happened to the Native Americans was one of the great tragedies of human history. Anyone who denies that is a fool. But it's also no different than any number of Native American tribes did to other Native American tribes either - and anyone who denies that is so lost to political correctness that they're a lost cause. Take a look at how the Aztecs used to behave some time. The question of who has a right to the land is so confused that at this point it's an argument that's pretty much solely brought up by people who want to excuse someone who is, _right now_, as opposed to 300 years ago, doing or planning on doing something barbarous to somebody. Moral standards have changed. What happened _then_ was not thought to be wrong by many people at all. We know better now. And it is simply inconceivable that Americans, at least, would decide that the solution to the problem was genocide - while it is quite clear that the Palestinian groups - the PLO very much included - wish to finish what Hitler started. I'm too lazy to make a case out of it, but there's definitely an argument to be made that this is precisely what was done to the Sioux, the Apaches, the Navaho Oh, the methods may be different, but the goal and end result will be the same. Jon I don't think there is much of one, because you can still find Sioux, Apaches, and Navajo all over the place. The colonists did a lot of very bad things. They did _not_ set out to kill every Native American in the Western Hemisphere - because if they had set out to do so, they would have succeeded. So even if you pretend that moral standards in the seventeenth century and those in the twenty first are somehow equivalent, it's _still_ not the same thing. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Palestinian Refugees (a site for reference)
Erik, This is an Israeli site, but it does appear to explain the situation in objective terms and give the reasoning for both sides. I thought it would be helpful since you seem to be asking Tom a lot of questions that this site can answer. http://www.mideastweb.org/refugees1.htm Map here: http://www.mideastweb.org/mrefugees.htm Weirdly enough, I did post this link to the list once before (many moons ago) when someone here had said that they had no idea that any Palestinian refugee camps had existed in arab countries. Jon From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Where are the European hypocrites? Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:14:13 -0400 On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 02:08:53PM -0400, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: It's kind of late to worry about that now. I have trouble reconciling that statement with someone who has an interest in understanding history. Come one, how many subjugated peoples in the entirety of world history got to vote on who ruled them? They had never voted to be part of the Ottoman Empire, either, so what right did the Ottoman Turks ever have to rule them? That sounds like a Gautam-style argument! -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l _ Tired of spam? Get advanced junk mail protection with MSN 8. http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [L3] Communication (was Re: media stratagy meetings)
Trying out some automatic spell checking so if I frell(sp?) any of the previous post, my apologies. --- Jan Coffey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip Essentially we seem to agree on the facts and how things have played out. What we disagree on was the appropriateness of the actions that were taken concerning spin. As such I would like to continue and focus more closely on this part, if you don't mind. rubs hands together gleefully Talking about talking? Oh, goody! What I find amazing is that I am always on the other side of this dichotomy when it comes to person-to-person communication. You touched upon this in an earlier post. At times I wish people would just get the Gist of what I or others mean and not pick apart the details which are often due to misspeaking. It's not always that one doesnt know sometimes, one might just pull out the wrong words. What I notice about email, as much as I enjoy the List, is that as _conversation_ it is lacking ~1/4+ (I am _so_ guessing this figure!) I keep hearing %70 but I also work with an anthropological linguist who says this figure is ridiculous and depends greatly on culture. There is also a lot of blabbing about how every culture has the same non-verbal signals for the same thing, and while this is true to some extent it is not by any means universal. Sorry, just providing a difference in _opinion_, finding supporting evidence is left as an exercise for the reader. of the communication that occurs in face-to-face interactions. Body language, facial expression and tone-of-voice can enhance, reinforce, shade/nuance, and even reverse or negate the words spoken. There are many who do not necessarily fit the same mold. Algonquin men for instance can use very little body language when speaking among friends in agreement, but can show exaggerated body language when only very slight disagreement. Those who have Autism or the milder form Asbergers(sp?) typically do not have the right mental mapping for body language. These people find it difficult to understand body language and so typically ignore it. They can also exhibit the absolute wrong body language for how they feel or what they are thinking. On the other hand many with this type of brain are quite good at reading people. Anecdotally, with friends who are like this, they seem to also constantly and evenly appear slightly annoyed. Once again anecdotally, the one body stance which has the highest probability to work in every situation. If you are going to have one expression, you have to choose one you are going to get the most out of. Many Dyslexics (such as myself) are very good at reading people only, not while they themselves are talking. I can tell you my hypothesis on what I am doing. I am trying to process my thoughts into language and that is the same system I use to read body language. The system I would use to process language most likely developed early and was coded for some other task (most likely visual processing) off the top of my head here so Annals of Dyslexia march 99 Or so-. Anyway, whatever the reason, I cant do both at the same time. If someone makes an exaggerated expression then I stop translating thoughts to words, loose my place, and have to reset to get back. Like an old VCR that when you hit pause and then play it has to rewind a bit and start over before the pause. It is important for me to note here that I can very easily talk and perform motor functions or logical processing at the same time. The cerebellar(sp?) dysfunction hypothesis popular in the early 90s is now known to not be the case. Ramus(sp?), Franck et.al. (2002) The relationship between motor control and phonology in dyslexic children. Emotions are a pale shadow of this vibrant non-verbal signaling. For me especially, both by nature (I have 'always' been empathic) and training (observation is vital to medical personnel), this void hampers my ability to understand what is actually *meant* rather than just what is being *written.* So do you naturally try to read in and fill the gap between the written word and the to coin and acronym- NVS (non-verbal signaling)? Do you try and imagine what the NVS would be? Do you try and read between the lines on an emotional level? And of course reading posts while sleep-deprived or stressed-out doesn't help either. :P Somewhat tangentially: regarding your 'opposite-sidedness' in person-to-person communication: how are you at interpreting the desires/intentions/forthcoming actions of domestic animals (dogs, cats etc.), whose communication is of course totally non-verbal? (but not non-vocal) Or getting them to understand yours? It is xcellent, as long as I am not trying to explain something or write something at the same time. At the same time, I hold no negative assessment of Bush et. al. for spinning as I see spinning a requirement to communicate with and persuade the American public. The emergent properties of this appears
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
Thanks for the summary, Gautam. That was exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I imagine it would have taken me weeks or more to obtain that information by my own research. And _Supreme Command_ sounds interesting, I'll add it to my to read list. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Are you a model citizen?
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Are you a model citizen? Date: Fri, 13 Jun 2003 14:40:47 -0500 Horn, John wrote: From: Adam C. Lipscomb [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Great idea! I've got a Secret Volcano Lair, can you bring the Plutonium and the Deadly Bikini-clad Vixens? Julia! Kat! Dee! Let's see who else do we have... Deborah! Oh man, I know I'm missing someone... Oh yeah, Ritu! and Ticia! Too bad Sonja's not around anymore... vbg - jmh Gonna Get Slapped Big Time Maru! Only because I don't have a bikini I fit into any more, thank you. :) You looked fine to me in those pictures. (Nothing piggish intended... justthefactsandnothingbutthefactsma'am.) :) Jon _ MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE* http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
scouted: free speach intimidated to death
While I may not personaly have any use for such substances, and I am split on the efectiveness of the laws in question, I still take issue with such laws as the RAVE act that can be used to intimidate parties from practicing free speech. Even as what most refer to as a concervative I find this very troubeling. Of course, I am very liberal when it comes to -social/moral- issues. http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=16134 = _ Jan William Coffey _ __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
--- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thanks for the summary, Gautam. That was exactly the sort of thing I was looking for. I imagine it would have taken me weeks or more to obtain that information by my own research. And _Supreme Command_ sounds interesting, I'll add it to my to read list. My pleasure. I daresay I made at least a couple of mistakes, though - it's been at least a couple of years since I looked at the issue in detail. I imagine that someone here will correct me if I did. _Supreme Command_ almost made me cry. Largely because when I was tossing around potential dissertation topics, one of my two favorites was trying to draw general principles on democratic leadership in wartime based on Lincoln, Churchill, and Ben-Gurion. Cohen added in Clemenceau and wrote the book - coming to the exact same conclusions that I think I would have. Damn it. I kept reading it and going I could have written that! It really is marvelous, though. Be warned, it might improve your opinion of Bush :-) The Iraq campaign might as well have used _Supreme Command_ as a textbook on how civilians control militaries. Bush was seen reading it soon after it came out, probably not by coincidence, and Cohen himself is quite influential within the Administration. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
--- Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My pleasure. I daresay I made at least a couple of mistakes, though - it's been at least a couple of years since I looked at the issue in detail. I imagine that someone here will correct me if I did. In fact, I caught one myself. Substitute Hagannah for Irgun. Oops. Gautam = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Calendar - Free online calendar with sync to Outlook(TM). http://calendar.yahoo.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Twenty (or so) Questions, was Re: Plonkworthy?
On 12 Jun 2003 at 21:07, Julia Thompson wrote: Andrew Crystall wrote: Certainly, but that applies to biology and we don't really KNOW how random much of the formation of the Universe was. And I'd point out that what reproductive fitness is can be complex (for example, why the Cystic Fybrosis gene survived...). OK, why *did* it survive? Do you know? Can you explain in under 10K of text? You have my curiousity piqued, Andy. Yep, simple. Cholera. Endemic in European towns for centuries, if you have a single gene for Cystic Fibrosis, you only lose about half the water (dehydation being the nastiest element of a cholera infection) which someone without it would, hence you have a much higher chance of survival. There are similar links with other genes which are pretty lethal when double-expressed, for example (as I recall) Tay-Sachs and tuberculosis. Andy Dawn Falcon ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Where are the European hypocrites?
On Fri, Jun 13, 2003 at 01:27:55PM -0700, Gautam Mukunda wrote: --- Richard Baker [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In your opinion, are the European media more biased than the US media? In my opinion, the British media, at least, are considerably more balanced than those US news channels I see (CNN, Fox). I can't speak for newspapers though - I just read the (London) Sunday Times, New Scientist and sometimes the Economist. I think so, yes. Take a look at Anne Applebaum's excellent article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A42230-2003Jun10.html on the extent to which European perspectives on the US are distorted - then think about how much worse it must be for Israel. I think she blames a fair amount of the distorted view that many Europeans have for America on Bush's arrogance and poor diplomacy: Partly, and more legitimately, it comes from ill-judged decisions by the administration, such as the refusal to call the Guantanamo Bay captives prisoners of war, which happens to be what they are. At the moment, prospects for change are slim. The administration's stunningly inept diplomacy in Europe isn't doing much to improve matters, nor is the low-level arrogance that still drips out of the White House and the Pentagon. -- Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
