RE: [cayugabirds-l] count v hunting: a possible solution
When I moved to the southern end of the lake 10 years ago I was dismayed at the amount of hunting around xmas and new years. I even emailed the DEC complaining how the humters hunt right in front of the house, dock, along the shore (which is legal) and how I witnessed where some didn't retrieve their killed or wounded ducks/geese or shot more than their limit. I was told then that they would step up their presence and it seemed that year it was better. But that was only that year - now I feel resigned to try not to look out the window and turn on some loud music when they are nearby (which today is hard to do when all morning there have been 8 hunters in two boats parked by a willow tree along with about 75 decoys out front. As I write this I looked out after hearing shots and 5 ducks were just wounded/drowning ). As far as whom makes the decision of what dates hunting takes place I was told back then it was a task force made up of individuals nominated by various sportsmens' groups that meet in early spring to make recommendations on season dates for the Western zone. I was given an email address where I could give input which would be passed on to them but I'm sure my opinion went on deaf ears. I think the only recourse is before hunting season send emails to DEC requesting more of a presence of DEC officers at the sourthern end of Cayuga, including Christmas and New Years day - sorry that interferes with their holiday but if hunting season is allowed those days then they should be out there too IMO Carol Schusler 1147 East Shore Dr From: bounce-111459891-9402...@list.cornell.edu [bounce-111459891-9402...@list.cornell.edu] on behalf of Dave Nutter [nutter.d...@me.com] Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2013 11:46 AM To: CAYUGABIRDS-L Subject: [cayugabirds-l] count v hunting: a possible solution I support keeping New Year's Day for the Ithaca count, despite the difficulty in explaining to people why our Christmas Bird Count is on the wrong holiday. The reasons have to do with data, birds, and people, and an alternative solution. The Ithaca count has a long tradition of being on this date starting with Doc Allen, so our records are likely more valuable for consistency than most counts, many of which vary by several days between years as they try to use (and conflict with one another) on weekend days. Being late in the 3-week window for counts, our count may also give a better picture of winter bird numbers. As climate change occurs it's even more important to have data which is taken consistently from year to year. Yes, the disruption of waterfowl in the past several years has been significant, and should be noted in the records for those using waterfowl data, but the Christmas Bird Count is not just of water birds and not just on the lake. Sorry, Ken, that your job has been made more difficult as Stewart Park counter. I'd like to try to change the situation in the City (more below). On the human side, I think having the count on this secular holiday is both good for getting a large and consistent turn-out of counters (I think I am an exception in that I work Wednesdays regardless so I won't be counting this year.), it is appropriately celebrated by birders as we start our year lists. Of course always want more counters because we have higher standards for coverage than most counts, and we always miss the great birders who migrate away according to the academic calendar, but I don't think we are likely to get more college folks participating unless we move the date to the very earliest end (with maximum data screw-up), and meanwhile any change from New Year's Day will lose a bunch of regular counters. About gunning season, from what I have just read in the resources which others have supplied to this listserv (thank-you!), I think the feds set the start and end date, as well as the maximum number of days in between which may be open, while the states decide which calendar days will be open. The state is nominally open to input, but (again looking at those resources) clearly is interested mainly (only?) in the views of those wanting maximum shooting opportunities, so the state makes a big effort to include as many weekends and holidays as possible, which of course are also the times when those of us who are not killing things or endangering anyone also have the most free time to be out, so the conflicts are maximized. We could try, but I think it would be difficult to get a holiday from shooting on New Year's Day. It's another question whether it's possible to reason with the particular individuals who are so intent on killing birds at the south end of Cayuga Lake that it appears to me they are willing to break various rules. Regarding the City of Ithaca, in 1994 it rescinded the lake hunting whose start was bemoaned in the historic newspaper column which Jane Graves posted on the club website and which
Re: [cayugabirds-l] count v hunting: a possible solution
Seen any birds lately. Hunterhater-L seems to be reporting some pretty good sightings. Considering Un subscribing from this list. Rich. .. On Dec 31, 2013 4:23 PM, Alicia Plotkin t...@zoom-dsl.com wrote: As Dave may remember from his days skirmishing with dog walkers at Treman Marina, the City neither owns nor controls what happens offshore in Cayuga Lake. The lake bottom, and what happens above it, is regulated solely by the state of NY. (Unlike most bodies of water in NYS, both Cayuga and Seneca Lakes, including the lake bottoms, are owned by the state.) This which is why if you want to build a dock or boat house over the lake, for example, you have to get permission from the State in addition to regular building permits. So while the City can control who carries guns in Stewart Park, it can't keep someone from having a gun if s/he is standing in the lake itself. The Ithaca City Court recognized the limits of the city's power when it held the city could not ticket off leash dogs swimming in the lake at Treman Marina: while the city has a law against off leash dogs, as does the state park system, the state itself does not and it is NYS that regulates the lake. Similarly, the city can prohibit someone from landing a boat at Stewart Park, but unless there is some state law giving it the power to do so, it cannot prohibit one from approaching, regardless of what the statute says. Finally, FWIW, Treman Marina is located geographically within the city but as state park land, it is not subject to city laws - the state park laws and state laws regulate what is permissible there. Best - Alicia On 12/31/2013 12:32 PM, Linda Orkin wrote: It will come as no surprise that I would be very willing to work with others to enact out existing statutes regarding this. This is great information Dave and thank you. You will be sorely missed tomorrow. Linda Sent from my iPhone On Dec 31, 2013, at 11:46 AM, Dave Nutter nutter.d...@me.com wrote: I support keeping New Year's Day for the Ithaca count, despite the difficulty in explaining to people why our Christmas Bird Count is on the wrong holiday. The reasons have to do with data, birds, and people, and an alternative solution. The Ithaca count has a long tradition of being on this date starting with Doc Allen, so our records are likely more valuable for consistency than most counts, many of which vary by several days between years as they try to use (and conflict with one another) on weekend days. Being late in the 3-week window for counts, our count may also give a better picture of winter bird numbers. As climate change occurs it's even more important to have data which is taken consistently from year to year. Yes, the disruption of waterfowl in the past several years has been significant, and should be noted in the records for those using waterfowl data, but the Christmas Bird Count is not just of water birds and not just on the lake. Sorry, Ken, that your job has been made more difficult as Stewart Park counter. I'd like to try to change the situation in the City (more below). On the human side, I think having the count on this secular holiday is both good for getting a large and consistent turn-out of counters (I think I am an exception in that I work Wednesdays regardless so I won't be counting this year.), it is appropriately celebrated by birders as we start our year lists. Of course always want more counters because we have higher standards for coverage than most counts, and we always miss the great birders who migrate away according to the academic calendar, but I don't think we are likely to get more college folks participating unless we move the date to the very earliest end (with maximum data screw-up), and meanwhile any change from New Year's Day will lose a bunch of regular counters. About gunning season, from what I have just read in the resources which others have supplied to this listserv (thank-you!), I think the feds set the start and end date, as well as the maximum number of days in between which may be open, while the states decide which calendar days will be open. The state is nominally open to input, but (again looking at those resources) clearly is interested mainly (only?) in the views of those wanting maximum shooting opportunities, so the state makes a big effort to include as many weekends and holidays as possible, which of course are also the times when those of us who are not killing things or endangering anyone also have the most free time to be out, so the conflicts are maximized. We could try, but I think it would be difficult to get a holiday from shooting on New Year's Day. It's another question whether it's possible to reason with the particular individuals who are so intent on killing birds at the south end of Cayuga Lake that it appears to me they are willing to break various rules. Regarding the City of
Re: [cayugabirds-l] count v hunting: a possible solution
It will come as no surprise that I would be very willing to work with others to enact out existing statutes regarding this. This is great information Dave and thank you. You will be sorely missed tomorrow. Linda Sent from my iPhone On Dec 31, 2013, at 11:46 AM, Dave Nutter nutter.d...@me.com wrote: I support keeping New Year's Day for the Ithaca count, despite the difficulty in explaining to people why our Christmas Bird Count is on the wrong holiday. The reasons have to do with data, birds, and people, and an alternative solution. The Ithaca count has a long tradition of being on this date starting with Doc Allen, so our records are likely more valuable for consistency than most counts, many of which vary by several days between years as they try to use (and conflict with one another) on weekend days. Being late in the 3-week window for counts, our count may also give a better picture of winter bird numbers. As climate change occurs it's even more important to have data which is taken consistently from year to year. Yes, the disruption of waterfowl in the past several years has been significant, and should be noted in the records for those using waterfowl data, but the Christmas Bird Count is not just of water birds and not just on the lake. Sorry, Ken, that your job has been made more difficult as Stewart Park counter. I'd like to try to change the situation in the City (more below). On the human side, I think having the count on this secular holiday is both good for getting a large and consistent turn-out of counters (I think I am an exception in that I work Wednesdays regardless so I won't be counting this year.), it is appropriately celebrated by birders as we start our year lists. Of course always want more counters because we have higher standards for coverage than most counts, and we always miss the great birders who migrate away according to the academic calendar, but I don't think we are likely to get more college folks participating unless we move the date to the very earliest end (with maximum data screw-up), and meanwhile any change from New Year's Day will lose a bunch of regular counters. About gunning season, from what I have just read in the resources which others have supplied to this listserv (thank-you!), I think the feds set the start and end date, as well as the maximum number of days in between which may be open, while the states decide which calendar days will be open. The state is nominally open to input, but (again looking at those resources) clearly is interested mainly (only?) in the views of those wanting maximum shooting opportunities, so the state makes a big effort to include as many weekends and holidays as possible, which of course are also the times when those of us who are not killing things or endangering anyone also have the most free time to be out, so the conflicts are maximized. We could try, but I think it would be difficult to get a holiday from shooting on New Year's Day. It's another question whether it's possible to reason with the particular individuals who are so intent on killing birds at the south end of Cayuga Lake that it appears to me they are willing to break various rules. Regarding the City of Ithaca, in 1994 it rescinded the lake hunting whose start was bemoaned in the historic newspaper column which Jane Graves posted on the club website and which Linda Orkin just sent out. Nowadays, shooting in the City is simply banned except for self defense, police purposes, funeral services, and at supervised indoor ranges, according to the City Code, Chapter 219, section 1. And according to 219-2, No person shall hunt, pursue or kill with a gun or firearm any wild animals, fowl or birds or engage in hunting within the city. What many people don't realize, though, is that the City of Ithaca includes not just the southern shoreline of Cayuga Lake (all of Allen H. Treman State Marine Park west to NYS-89, all of Stewart Park, and both the lighthouses), but the City of Ithaca also includes the lake itself all the way to the western shore as far north as #883 Taughannock Boulevard, and south of an east-west line which extends almost to the shore just north of #940 East Shore Drive, the northernmost of the first group of houses. Only a tiny strip of east shoreline water from the Chamber of Commerce Visitor Center north past those houses is outside the City of Ithaca. Thus a piece of the lake which would serve resting waterfowl very well happens to be within City limits. To see for yourself, zoom in on this map: http://geo.tompkins-co.org/html/?viewer=tcpropmo Furthermore, Stewart Park, which has additional protections, extends north to that limit. According to the City Code 336-10, Stewart Park extends ...down Fall Creek to its mouth; thence north to the north City line; thence east along the north City line to the west
Re: [cayugabirds-l] count v hunting: a possible solution
As Dave may remember from his days skirmishing with dog walkers at Treman Marina, the City neither owns nor controls what happens offshore in Cayuga Lake. The lake bottom, and what happens above it, is regulated solely by the state of NY. (Unlike most bodies of water in NYS, both Cayuga and Seneca Lakes, including the lake bottoms, are owned by the state.) This which is why if you want to build a dock or boat house over the lake, for example, you have to get permission from the State in addition to regular building permits. So while the City can control who carries guns in Stewart Park, it can't keep someone from having a gun if s/he is standing in the lake itself. The Ithaca City Court recognized the limits of the city's power when it held the city could not ticket off leash dogs swimming in the lake at Treman Marina: while the city has a law against off leash dogs, as does the state park system, the state itself does not and it is NYS that regulates the lake. Similarly, the city can prohibit someone from landing a boat at Stewart Park, but unless there is some state law giving it the power to do so, it cannot prohibit one from approaching, regardless of what the statute says. Finally, FWIW, Treman Marina is located geographically within the city but as state park land, it is not subject to city laws - the state park laws and state laws regulate what is permissible there. Best - Alicia On 12/31/2013 12:32 PM, Linda Orkin wrote: It will come as no surprise that I would be very willing to work with others to enact out existing statutes regarding this. This is great information Dave and thank you. You will be sorely missed tomorrow. Linda Sent from my iPhone On Dec 31, 2013, at 11:46 AM, Dave Nutter nutter.d...@me.com mailto:nutter.d...@me.com wrote: I support keeping New Year's Day for the Ithaca count, despite the difficulty in explaining to people why our Christmas Bird Count is on the wrong holiday. The reasons have to do with data, birds, and people, and an alternative solution. The Ithaca count has a long tradition of being on this date starting with Doc Allen, so our records are likely more valuable for consistency than most counts, many of which vary by several days between years as they try to use (and conflict with one another) on weekend days. Being late in the 3-week window for counts, our count may also give a better picture of winter bird numbers. As climate change occurs it's even more important to have data which is taken consistently from year to year. Yes, the disruption of waterfowl in the past several years has been significant, and should be noted in the records for those using waterfowl data, but the Christmas Bird Count is not just of water birds and not just on the lake. Sorry, Ken, that your job has been made more difficult as Stewart Park counter. I'd like to try to change the situation in the City (more below). On the human side, I think having the count on this secular holiday is both good for getting a large and consistent turn-out of counters (I think I am an exception in that I work Wednesdays regardless so I won't be counting this year.), it is appropriately celebrated by birders as we start our year lists. Of course always want more counters because we have higher standards for coverage than most counts, and we always miss the great birders who migrate away according to the academic calendar, but I don't think we are likely to get more college folks participating unless we move the date to the very earliest end (with maximum data screw-up), and meanwhile any change from New Year's Day will lose a bunch of regular counters. About gunning season, from what I have just read in the resources which others have supplied to this listserv (thank-you!), I think the feds set the start and end date, as well as the maximum number of days in between which may be open, while the states decide which calendar days will be open. The state is nominally open to input, but (again looking at those resources) clearly is interested mainly (only?) in the views of those wanting maximum shooting opportunities, so the state makes a big effort to include as many weekends and holidays as possible, which of course are also the times when those of us who are not killing things or endangering anyone also have the most free time to be out, so the conflicts are maximized. We could try, but I think it would be difficult to get a holiday from shooting on New Year's Day. It's another question whether it's possible to reason with the particular individuals who are so intent on killing birds at the south end of Cayuga Lake that it appears to me they are willing to break various rules. Regarding the City of Ithaca, in 1994 it rescinded the lake hunting whose start was bemoaned in the historic newspaper column which Jane Graves posted on the club
