Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Vreme: 11/16/2011 07:55 AM, Christopher Chan piše: On Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:30 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Vreme: 11/15/2011 04:14 PM, Rob Kampen piše: run a virtualbox with windoze XP for a realtor app that only works on IE (yeah, go figure, we are in 2011 and they force everyone to use IE) Install PlayOnLinux (Wine installer) and install IE6 inside it. Maybe your App will work without virtual Win. Yeehaa! That's it, recommend the worst IE browser available. He uses it only for one App. So maybe there is no security risk. But actually I miss-read it like he needs to use IE6. And no other IE version is reported to work in Wine. -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe Google is the Mother, Google is the Father, and traceroute is your trusty Spiderman... StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Yves Bellefeuille wrote: What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. Not over 50%, but 5,5%, according to this source: http://www.netmarketshare.com/ I may have exaggerated the figure, but I don't believe it is as low as that. Smart phones have been outselling PCs for some time. So even if the figure is less than 50%, it will soon be up there. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Christopher Chan wrote: I find it very hard to believe that 90% of Chinese are using desktops. What about all those girls tweeting on the bus to school? There must be billions of them. Farmers/peasants have phones? All those girls tweeting? Aren't you confusing Japan with China? I wasn't in fact referring to China when I mentioned girls tweeting. I should have left a blank line. I was referring to the girls I see here (Dublin) on the bus/train. However, iPhone sales in China increased by 250% last year. I think your image of China is rather out-of-date. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 11:44:26AM +, Timothy Murphy wrote: I think your image of China is rather out-of-date. I have a novel suggestion. As this has absolutely NOTHING to do with CentOS (like usual) how about taking it to private e-mail? John -- If you always do what interests you, at least one person is pleased. -- Katharine Hepburn (1907-2003), American actress, writer pgpY2jdNaMypa.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Vreme: 11/16/2011 12:36 PM, Timothy Murphy piše: Yves Bellefeuille wrote: What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. Not over 50%, but 5,5%, according to this source: http://www.netmarketshare.com/ I may have exaggerated the figure, but I don't believe it is as low as that. Smart phones have been outselling PCs for some time. So even if the figure is less than 50%, it will soon be up there. If no smartphones gets broken and/or replaced, they could reach number of PC users (50%) in one year. Realistically it will take them 2-3 years to reach those numbers. BUT, I have 2 phones (one of them is Android), 1 desktop PC and 1 laptop. And 95-97% of internet usage I perform on Desktop PC. Even when I am in/on the field I use laptop and use Android just as Wireless AP (for 3G access). Not to mention GPRS/3G price for surfing. Most people here avoid mobile internet and vast majority has wired internet access. SO, no luck for your estimate of 50% internet access share in next 5-10 years, by logical estimate. -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe Google is the Mother, Google is the Father, and traceroute is your trusty Spiderman... StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Wednesday, November 16, 2011 07:44 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote: Christopher Chan wrote: I find it very hard to believe that 90% of Chinese are using desktops. What about all those girls tweeting on the bus to school? There must be billions of them. Farmers/peasants have phones? All those girls tweeting? Aren't you confusing Japan with China? I wasn't in fact referring to China when I mentioned girls tweeting. I should have left a blank line. I was referring to the girls I see here (Dublin) on the bus/train. However, iPhone sales in China increased by 250% last year. I think your image of China is rather out-of-date. Tell that to the hundreds of thousands of migrant factory workers trying to move from farmer/peasant status to something else. Maybe a few more protests at Foxconn and other factories might help. Yeah...right. The Chinese way of governing has not changed - it's just another set of people with a different label. Palace intrigues replaced by Communist Party intrigues. Same old corruption at all levels of government. Same old keep the poor poor for fleecing while the powers that be live a life of extravagance. Not that that is unique to China. So you got a few more tens of millionaires - what's that compared to a billion? You don't have 90% of Chinese using phones and certainly not for email. Maybe a bit of sms. In any case, for the few (percentage wise) that use computers and the tiny portion that use Linux even...it's probably Red Flag Linux and not Centos... ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Agreed! The cramped screen space (I run dual vid cards in sli with 4 monitors with development apps spread all over them!), sluggish response (open what I have running on my work station and any laptop goes into crawl mode), heat (if you really run it in your lap as the name infers) and that just touches on the very start of my list. Yes, I have few laptops and use them when I 'need' to and one often times goes with me when I leave my office (but my phone is rapidly replacing that need unless I'm going for days)... but why on earth would I consider using only a laptop? Well, if I was always mobile, but I'm not. Maybe if I didn't need to run any development systems... Eclipse on a laptop certainly works, but is sluggish vs. a workstation. Open Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Eclipse, three web browsers a secure shell or few, email, IM, and then need to open a Word attachment and most laptops chug to worst than a crawl. And the funny thing, from my perspective at least, is that I'm sitting beside a laptop that routinely has several VMware VM's running (XP Server 2008r2), several line of business applications open, and has dreamweaver *and* gimp running in the background. :) All this on a two year old i3 w/ 6GB RAM. Set me back around $900. Larger screen? VGA or HDMI outputs. ;-) Nothing quite beats working on a 55 HDTV in your living room, especially when I have time for STO. -- Drew Nothing in life is to be feared. It is only to be understood. --Marie Curie ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Drew wrote: Agreed! The cramped screen space (I run dual vid cards in sli with 4 monitors with development apps spread all over them!), sluggish response (open what I have running on my work station and any laptop goes into nsip And the funny thing, from my perspective at least, is that I'm sitting beside a laptop that routinely has several VMware VM's running (XP Server 2008r2), several line of business applications open, and has dreamweaver *and* gimp running in the background. :) All this on a two year old i3 w/ 6GB RAM. Set me back around $900. Larger screen? VGA or HDMI outputs. ;-) Nothing quite beats working on a 55 HDTV in your living room, especially when I have time for STO. Well, yes, I can think of a hell of a lot of things that *beat* -working- at home in your living room, which suggests that you're doing well over 40 hours/week. Been there, done that, actually have a t-shirt. Do it again for an employer, regularly? Not a fucking chance. mark ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 08:54:31AM -0500, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Well, yes, I can think of a hell of a lot of things that *beat* -working- at home in your living room, which suggests that you're doing well over 40 hours/week. Been there, done that, actually have a t-shirt. Do it again for an employer, regularly? Not a fucking chance. So not only does the overall SNR leave, well, everything to be desired but not we are tolerating this type of language? Good job - you've made an already useless list that much worse. You rule. -- Much of what looks like rudeness in hacker circles is not intended to give offense. Rather, it's the product of the direct, cut-through-the-bullshit communications style that is natural to people who are more concerned about solving problems than making others feel warm and fuzzy. http://www.tuxedo.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html pgpjGo3FSob4S.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 05:39:28AM -0800, Drew wrote: Agreed! The cramped screen space (I run dual vid cards in sli with 4 monitors with development apps spread all over them!), sluggish response (open what I have running on my work station and any laptop goes into crawl mode), heat (if you really run it in your lap as the name infers) and that just touches on the very start of my list. Yes, I have few laptops and use them when I 'need' to and one often times goes with me when I leave my office (but my phone is rapidly replacing that need unless I'm going for days)... but why on earth would I consider using only a laptop? Well, if I was always mobile, but I'm not. Maybe if I didn't need to run any development systems... Eclipse on a laptop certainly works, but is sluggish vs. a workstation. Open Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Eclipse, three web browsers a secure shell or few, email, IM, and then need to open a Word attachment and most laptops chug to worst than a crawl. And the funny thing, from my perspective at least, is that I'm sitting beside a laptop that routinely has several VMware VM's running (XP Server 2008r2), several line of business applications open, and has dreamweaver *and* gimp running in the background. :) All this on a two year old i3 w/ 6GB RAM. Set me back around $900. Larger screen? VGA or HDMI outputs. ;-) Nothing quite beats working on a 55 HDTV in your living room, especially when I have time for STO. Very similar experience here, too. I think all boils down to energy and if the marginal increase in productivity on desktop HW is worth it. Desktop components are optimized for performance with a lot less regards for power than those for mobile devices. Besides, the OS attempts and can be further tuned to use better the HW energy wise when installed on a mobile device -- and here we get just a bit closer to the topic of this list. :-) Try to gauge how much of the time (wall clock time) you use the CPU cores close to their full power during a typical day. There are several tools that may help. That will give the percentage of your working time when the higher performance of the desktop HW *may* get you a boost in productivity. Also, power the system though an energy meter and read it after 24h. I bet that unless your usage is kind of specific, such as simulations, video rendering, or batches of algorithm-heavy image processing, the time you really use such HW close to full capacity is really small. However, the power drain, even when idle, is a lot higher compared to even a high end laptop's. Besides, it's common practice to suspend the laptop session during night time. How many consider doing that with a desktop? To me it's much like hopping my 75kg in a 2 tonnes car to get some groceries. Moving around 2t for 75kg may be like 20 times more energy intensive than using a scooter. Mihai ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On 11/16/2011 6:36 AM, Timothy Murphy wrote: Yves Bellefeuille wrote: What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. Not over 50%, but 5,5%, according to this source: http://www.netmarketshare.com/ I may have exaggerated the figure, but I don't believe it is as low as that. Smart phones have been outselling PCs for some time. So even if the figure is less than 50%, it will soon be up there. You are arguing two entirely different points. One 'Access' the other 'Market Share'. Likely both are very nearly right percentages. You buy a phone first to 'have a phone'. The rest are upgrades and useful features, but just because you buy a smart phone doesn't mean that is now your single method for 'accessing the net'. John Hinton -- John Hinton 877-777-1407 ext 502 http://www.ew3d.com Comprehensive Online Solutions ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On 16 November 2011 14:02, John R. Dennison j...@gerdesas.com wrote: So not only does the overall SNR leave, well, everything to be desired but not we are tolerating this type of language? Good job - you've made an already useless list that much worse. You rule. As much as I detest people who do this +1. Ben ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Greetings, On Wed, Nov 16, 2011 at 8:37 PM, Benjamin Donnachie benja...@py-soft.co.uk wrote: On 16 November 2011 14:02, John R. Dennison j...@gerdesas.com wrote: So not only does the overall SNR leave, well, everything to be desired but not we are tolerating this type of language? Good job - you've made an already useless list that much worse. You rule. As much as I detest people who do this +1. hmm... Strom over a teacup Centos has much larger installed base than upstream provider. And the _always_ stressed out sysadmins find a vent or two in this list. No Problem with me. This is mostly an Adult Only list, I presume (as minors cannot become Linux admins that fast -- What the heck even M$*E's cant get it) of course. So a word should not derail any conversation. Above IMHO, of course. -- Regards, Rajagopal ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Vreme: 11/16/2011 04:18 PM, Rajagopal Swaminathan piše: Centos has much larger installed base than upstream provider. Internet facing systems (market share of web servers) and Install base are not the same thing. MANY RHEL installations never ever see the light of day, so Not true. Also, if you would compare CPU Core numbers -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe Google is the Mother, Google is the Father, and traceroute is your trusty Spiderman... StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On 16 Nov 2011, at 15:19, Rajagopal Swaminathan raju.rajs...@gmail.com wrote: hmm... Strom over a teacup My reply concerned the huge amount of drivel being posted to this list. The topic is supposedly CentOS - not stressed sysadmins sounding off. Simples really. Ben Sent from my iPhone ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Vreme: 11/16/2011 07:55 AM, Christopher Chan piše: On Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:30 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Vreme: 11/15/2011 04:14 PM, Rob Kampen piše: run a virtualbox with windoze XP for a realtor app that only works on IE (yeah, go figure, we are in 2011 and they force everyone to use IE) Install PlayOnLinux (Wine installer) and install IE6 inside it. Maybe your App will work without virtual Win. Yeehaa! That's it, recommend the worst IE browser available. He uses it only for one App. So maybe there is no security risk. But actually I miss-read it like he needs to use IE6. Currently I use IE7 on a virtualbox instance running windozeXP - I used too use IE6 but the experience is not good, thus moved to IE7. The issue is the MLS system in our region will only work on IE6 or greater. The other app I use in windoze is quickbooks (most inappropriate name as it has never been quick) It too only used to run on windoze, although apparently there is now a mac version. All other apps for my business run on Linux. I started with RH9 in 2004, moved to FC3 when we had a disk crash take down the server, then discovered CentOS and never looked back - thanks team, I do so appreciate the reliability and solid performance. And no other IE version is reported to work in Wine. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
At Wed, 16 Nov 2011 12:20:55 -0500 CentOS mailing list centos@centos.org wrote: ---Executing: recode Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Vreme: 11/16/2011 07:55 AM, Christopher Chan pise: On Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:30 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Vreme: 11/15/2011 04:14 PM, Rob Kampen pise: run a virtualbox with windoze XP for a realtor app that only works on IE (yeah, go figure, we are in 2011 and they force everyone to use IE) Install PlayOnLinux (Wine installer) and install IE6 inside it. Maybe your App will work without virtual Win. Yeehaa! That's it, recommend the worst IE browser available. He uses it only for one App. So maybe there is no security risk. But actually I miss-read it like he needs to use IE6. Currently I use IE7 on a virtualbox instance running windozeXP - I used too use IE6 but the experience is not good, thus moved to IE7. The issue is the MLS system in our region will only work on IE6 or greater. The other app I use in windoze is quickbooks (most inappropriate name as it has never been quick) Have you ever looked at GnuCash? (Available in the EPel repo for CentOS.) It too only used to run on windoze, although apparently there is now a mac version. All other apps for my business run on Linux. I started with RH9 in 2004, moved to FC3 when we had a disk crash take down the server, then discovered CentOS and never looked back - thanks team, I do so appreciate the reliability and solid performance. And no other IE version is reported to work in Wine. MIME-Version: 1.0 ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos -- Robert Heller -- 978-544-6933 / hel...@deepsoft.com Deepwoods Software-- http://www.deepsoft.com/ () ascii ribbon campaign -- against html e-mail /\ www.asciiribbon.org -- against proprietary attachments ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: If no smartphones gets broken and/or replaced, they could reach number of PC users (50%) in one year. Realistically it will take them 2-3 years to reach those numbers. BUT, I have 2 phones (one of them is Android), 1 desktop PC and 1 laptop. And 95-97% of internet usage I perform on Desktop PC. Even when I am in/on the field I use laptop and use Android just as Wireless AP (for 3G access). Not to mention GPRS/3G price for surfing. Most people here avoid mobile internet and vast majority has wired internet access. SO, no luck for your estimate of 50% internet access share in next 5-10 years, by logical estimate. Unless maybe you are not typical ... -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Vreme: 11/15/2011 03:56 AM, Alan McKay piše: Both CentOS and Scientific Linux *aim* at 100% binary compatibility and they are both doing their best toward that goal. However, neither is perfect. That's interesting. So how is it they've managed to come out with 6.1 (and so long ago at that)? THe text bellow in only MY opinion, and I am not the member of the dev team, or have any official capacity except being one of the admins in the CentOS Facebook Group. One of the reasons (as much as I understood) is that initially CentOS team was caught unprepared for the fact that CentOS 6 is not build-able from either CentOS 5 or RHEL 6, or even Fedora's, or even any combination of those distros. In the past you could build CentOS 5 using CentOS/RHEL 5 Beta, something like that, I do not know exact details, but it was easy to build it. 1. When RHEL 6 Beta came out, devs were confronted with hostile building environment with missing versions of packages actually used (they had to file bugs against it and wait for Red Hat to release them while chasing around to possibly find those versions faster. 2. In the past there was not many people training to be on the devs team and existing members are volunteers so they have/had limited free time. It was 6-7 years after any mayor/complex building effort, so even active devs had no mayor problems in that period and they were kind of rusty (I hope devs will not take this against me, it is normal for skills lesser used to require brushing up, I know it on my own example). 3. Infrastructure (hardware) and build environment speed and optimization (in terms of software like mock/smock, binary comparison, etc.) was not up to the task at hand. Even disk space was a stretched to the limit to accommodate all versions, srpms, building environments, ... 4. Way of doing thing CentOS pre-6.x was proved to be inefficient and the gap from upstream releases started to prolong. That is when CentOS devs decided to change policy and do like SL team, and create CR repo so they can publish all completed packages as soon as they are available. Scientific Linux has (at least) 2 paid developers and they started setting up (Koji) building environment (long?) before RHEL 6 Beta was released. That gave them starting advantage. Further more, SL devs decided to push SL 6.0 before 5.7 and 4.9 point releases (contrary to CentOS devs) published in same time frame, so to many on this mailing list it looked like SL devs are overall much faster. Their 5.7 update was (I think) few months behind. Currently, CentOS build system should be in much better shape and we will see how it will do for coming 6.2 point release (already in beta). There is much more relevant info, but this should be the jest an I have work to do. -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe Google is the Mother, Google is the Father, and traceroute is your trusty Spiderman... StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Currently, CentOS build system should be in much better shape and we will see how it will do for coming 6.2 point release (already in beta). Thanks very much for that. I found your account most interesting and informative. I guess one question that I've never seen raised is if there has ever been a suggestion that Centos and SL should combine, or at least work together? They seem to have exactly the same aim. I wonder why SL was set up, rather than offering to help the CentOS team? I saw statistics - I don't remember where - saying that CentOS had 30% of the Linux market, which I found very surprising, though also satsifying (to me). SL had a tiny share. (I remember now, it was someone complaining that Fedora's share was slipping badly.) I belong to what may be the silent majority who don't really care if CentOS is absolutely up-to-date. (As far as I can see, none of the changes in CentOS-6.1 would make the slightest difference to me. I run CentOS on 3 home servers, and Fedora on my laptops.) I was very struck by the ease with which I upgraded to CentOS-6, compared with the nightmare (now hopefully over) upgrading from Fedora-15 to Fedora-16. It reminded me why I would never run Fedora on a server. To me, the reliability and solidity of CentOS are what I relish, and I'm very grateful to the CentOS team for their work. I don't mind them getting a bit crotchety at times! -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On 11/15/2011 01:56 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote: Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Currently, CentOS build system should be in much better shape and we will see how it will do for coming 6.2 point release (already in beta). Thanks very much for that. I found your account most interesting and informative. I guess one question that I've never seen raised is if there has ever been a suggestion that Centos and SL should combine, or at least work together? They seem to have exactly the same aim. I wonder why SL was set up, rather than offering to help the CentOS team? SL does betas and CentOS does not for example. I think the way both projects chose to operate is simply incompatible. I saw statistics - I don't remember where - saying that CentOS had 30% of the Linux market, which I found very surprising, though also satsifying (to me). SL had a tiny share. (I remember now, it was someone complaining that Fedora's share was slipping badly.) Fedora is basically an incubator for new technologies and as such not really an attractive system to install for end-users. If you deal with servers you probably go with CentOS, SL, Debian, etc. and if you want a desktop you probably use Ubuntu. I belong to what may be the silent majority who don't really care if CentOS is absolutely up-to-date. (As far as I can see, none of the changes in CentOS-6.1 would make the slightest difference to me. I run CentOS on 3 home servers, and Fedora on my laptops.) I was very struck by the ease with which I upgraded to CentOS-6, compared with the nightmare (now hopefully over) upgrading from Fedora-15 to Fedora-16. It reminded me why I would never run Fedora on a server. I tend to skip one Fedora release and then do a a plain reinstall and copy my old data I need over. Fedora upgrades always sound rather messy. Regards, Dennis ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: Fedora is basically an incubator for new technologies and as such not really an attractive system to install for end-users. If you deal with servers you probably go with CentOS, SL, Debian, etc. and if you want a desktop you probably use Ubuntu. I don't really agree with this. If you are using CentOS on servers it is much easier to use Fedora on laptops, since Fedora is so similar in operation to CentOS. In fact CentOS is more or less identical to an ancient version of Fedora. Incidentally, I don't really understand what is meant by the term desktop nowadays. I always think of it as a contrast to laptop. But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Am 15.11.2011 14:56, schrieb Timothy Murphy: But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? this is what some braindead developers seems to think but it is not true nor will it never get true! why in the world should i use a laptop in my office if i can have a Core i7 Quad combined with much more and better hardware as ever possible in a laptop? why in the world should i use a laptop @home where i have a dedicated place for a powerful machine with much less heat and noise than a crappy laptop? i have worked long enough with laptops and they was, they are and they will always be useless crap if you need power and comfort while you do more as webbrowsing or read a handful mails what i can do with my mobile signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On 11/15/2011 09:35 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 15.11.2011 14:56, schrieb Timothy Murphy: But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? this is what some braindead developers seems to think but it is not true nor will it never get true! why in the world should i use a laptop in my office if i can have a Core i7 Quad combined with much more and better hardware as ever possible in a laptop? why in the world should i use a laptop @home where i have a dedicated place for a powerful machine with much less heat and noise than a crappy laptop? i have worked long enough with laptops and they was, they are and they will always be useless crap if you need power and comfort while you do more as webbrowsing or read a handful mails what i can do with my mobile +1 -- Stephen Clark *NetWolves* Sr. Software Engineer III Phone: 813-579-3200 Fax: 813-882-0209 Email: steve.cl...@netwolves.com http://www.netwolves.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: On 11/15/2011 01:56 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote: Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: snip I saw statistics - I don't remember where - saying that CentOS had 30% of the Linux market, which I found very surprising, Wow! though also satsifying (to me). SL had a tiny share. (I remember now, it was someone complaining that Fedora's share was slipping badly.) Because fedora, as has been mentioned here by folks in addition to me, is bleeding edge, not leading edge. There's *NO* *WAY* I'd run it at home, much less at work. snip I was very struck by the ease with which I upgraded to CentOS-6, compared with the nightmare (now hopefully over) upgrading from Fedora-15 to Fedora-16. It reminded me why I would never run Fedora on a server. I tend to skip one Fedora release and then do a a plain reinstall and copy my old data I need over. Fedora upgrades always sound rather messy. The preupgrade is what I've been using the last year, and why I'm now building boxes here with 500M instead of 100M root partitions, figuring that it's what's coming for CentOS, eventually. mark ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Reindl Harald wrote: But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? this is what some braindead developers seems to think but it is not true nor will it never get true! why in the world should i use a laptop in my office if i can have a Core i7 Quad combined with much more and better hardware as ever possible in a laptop? Don't you think you are in a very small minority, like 1% of the world? What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Timothy Murphy wrote: Reindl Harald wrote: But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? this is what some braindead developers seems to think but it is not true nor will it never get true! why in the world should i use a laptop in my office if i can have a Core i7 Quad combined with much more and better hardware as ever possible in a laptop? Don't you think you are in a very small minority, like 1% of the world? Nope. And certainly not from where I've sat for several years. What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. I'd guess you're massively wrong. And before you start, are you prepared to put down, out of your personal wallet, the money for eye surgery for me, to give me 15/20 vision, so I can read the damn thing? You *really* enjoy looking at videos, or even trying to read email, either at 2-3 words per line, or in 3 point type? And while we're at it, I suggest you look at, say, the official MySQL documentation on your itty-bitty-screen. I do it, on a browser set at about a quarter of a 22 diagonal screen, and *still* see the idiots have some of the formatting set so that it overprints. mark wants a better -telephone-, to TALK to people -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On 11/15/2011 06:52 AM, Timothy Murphy wrote: What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. Mobile devices still have *under* 6% of the internet browser market. See http://www.netmarketshare.com/ -- Benjamin Franz ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Timothy Murphy wrote: Reindl Harald wrote: But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? this is what some braindead developers seems to think but it is not true nor will it never get true! why in the world should i use a laptop in my office if i can have a Core i7 Quad combined with much more and better hardware as ever possible in a laptop? Don't you think you are in a very small minority, like 1% of the world? What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. So what - I use an iPhone to read my mail when out and about, but my real work happens on a desk-top - dual 22 monitors, average 10+ open applications, run a virtualbox with windoze XP for a realtor app that only works on IE (yeah, go figure, we are in 2011 and they force everyone to use IE). Long live the desktop!! ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Vreme: 11/15/2011 01:56 PM, Timothy Murphy piše: Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Currently, CentOS build system should be in much better shape and we will see how it will do for coming 6.2 point release (already in beta). Thanks very much for that. I found your account most interesting and informative. I guess one question that I've never seen raised is if there has ever been a suggestion that Centos and SL should combine, or at least work together? They seem to have exactly the same aim. I wonder why SL was set up, rather than offering to help the CentOS team? SL is maintained for Scientists mostly in Fermi Labs and CERN, and it has additional Scientific applications/packages. They are also government funded project, and as such must follow some strict rules. Those are main reasons. There are smaller ones, but even those are enough not to think in the direction of joining projects. snip I run CentOS on 3 home servers, and Fedora on my laptops.) I have setup repository for desktop use of CentOS where I have put many packages (~300 compiled and 45 downloaded from non-repo locations) and in process of solving repo conflicts so major third-part repositories can be the basis for nicely formulated Desktop distro. When I finally have enough time I will finish it and offer entire package to public. I hope it will be soon. -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe Google is the Mother, Google is the Father, and traceroute is your trusty Spiderman... StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Tue, 15 Nov 2011, Timothy Murphy wrote: Reindl Harald wrote: But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? this is what some braindead developers seems to think but it is not true nor will it never get true! why in the world should i use a laptop in my office if i can have a Core i7 Quad combined with much more and better hardware as ever possible in a laptop? Don't you think you are in a very small minority, like 1% of the world? Not by a long long way. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Vreme: 11/15/2011 03:52 PM, Timothy Murphy piše: Reindl Harald wrote: But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? this is what some braindead developers seems to think but it is not true nor will it never get true! why in the world should i use a laptop in my office if i can have a Core i7 Quad combined with much more and better hardware as ever possible in a laptop? Don't you think you are in a very small minority, like 1% of the world? Since only slightly above 1% of people in the world uses Linux, this means that all Linux users use Desktops instead of lap-top's ;-D What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. For Desktop is considered ANYTHING that you use on your table, even when the box is on the floor. Laptops use is limited to 3-4 years until it brakes. And there is no cheap repair, and you can not add enough HDD's you need, at least one more for backup. Many IT workers will have some kind of RAID on their boxes. -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe Google is the Mother, Google is the Father, and traceroute is your trusty Spiderman... StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Vreme: 11/15/2011 04:14 PM, Rob Kampen piše: run a virtualbox with windoze XP for a realtor app that only works on IE (yeah, go figure, we are in 2011 and they force everyone to use IE) Install PlayOnLinux (Wine installer) and install IE6 inside it. Maybe your App will work without virtual Win. -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe Google is the Mother, Google is the Father, and traceroute is your trusty Spiderman... StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Vreme: 11/15/2011 03:46 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us piše: The preupgrade is what I've been using the last year, and why I'm now building boxes here with 500M instead of 100M root partitions, figuring that it's what's coming for CentOS, eventually. +1 -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe Google is the Mother, Google is the Father, and traceroute is your trusty Spiderman... StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On 11/15/2011 9:35 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 15.11.2011 14:56, schrieb Timothy Murphy: But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? this is what some braindead developers seems to think but it is not true nor will it never get true! why in the world should i use a laptop in my office if i can have a Core i7 Quad combined with much more and better hardware as ever possible in a laptop? why in the world should i use a laptop @home where i have a dedicated place for a powerful machine with much less heat and noise than a crappy laptop? i have worked long enough with laptops and they was, they are and they will always be useless crap if you need power and comfort while you do more as webbrowsing or read a handful mails what i can do with my mobile Agreed! The cramped screen space (I run dual vid cards in sli with 4 monitors with development apps spread all over them!), sluggish response (open what I have running on my work station and any laptop goes into crawl mode), heat (if you really run it in your lap as the name infers) and that just touches on the very start of my list. Yes, I have few laptops and use them when I 'need' to and one often times goes with me when I leave my office (but my phone is rapidly replacing that need unless I'm going for days)... but why on earth would I consider using only a laptop? Well, if I was always mobile, but I'm not. Maybe if I didn't need to run any development systems... Eclipse on a laptop certainly works, but is sluggish vs. a workstation. Open Dreamweaver, Photoshop, Eclipse, three web browsers a secure shell or few, email, IM, and then need to open a Word attachment and most laptops chug to worst than a crawl. Yes, laptops are more becoming a tool of the trade, but I don't think 1% is any where near a real number. It 'might' be as high as 50% (totally grabbing at the stars saying that). ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos -- John Hinton 877-777-1407 ext 502 http://www.ew3d.com Comprehensive Online Solutions ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Benjamin Franz wrote: What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. Mobile devices still have *under* 6% of the internet browser market. See http://www.netmarketshare.com/ I find it very hard to believe that 90% of Chinese are using desktops. What about all those girls tweeting on the bus to school? There must be billions of them. -- Timothy Murphy e-mail: gayleard /at/ eircom.net tel: +353-86-2336090, +353-1-2842366 s-mail: School of Mathematics, Trinity College, Dublin 2, Ireland ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Timothy Murphy gayle...@eircom.net wrote: Incidentally, I don't really understand what is meant by the term desktop nowadays. I always think of it as a contrast to laptop. 'Desktop' is in contrast to 'server'. On a server, you only reboot to load a new kernel and you never use the console display, rarely change the drive layout or use removable storage, and almost never change the network connections - and you expect the same programs to run for years. On a desktop, the display is the first priority, ownership of certain devices is expected to magically shift to the user at the console, developers will give up consistent device naming for boot speed, and nobody cares if last year's programs still run with this year's OS. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Greetings, On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Timothy Murphy gayle...@eircom.net wrote: Reindl Harald wrote: But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? I don't. Don't you think you are in a very small minority, like 1% of the world? I live in India. hmm... I am one of the 1/6th of the population in the world and I don't own a laptop. I don't carry work home. Here one is supposed to be dedicated to one's family: either gender. Worrk is worrk (germaniK accent intended... :) ). Home is Home. Which percentage you represent? What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. Duh! come here to India and afford all those devices with Indian Salaries. Than talk here. Actually I hate work after work hours. I have left many lucrative jobs for time with my family at wrong times per se. -- With Warm Regards and Best Wishes, (Capitalisation intended) Rajagopal ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Les Mikesell wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Timothy Murphy gayle...@eircom.net wrote: Incidentally, I don't really understand what is meant by the term desktop nowadays. I always think of it as a contrast to laptop. 'Desktop' is in contrast to 'server'. On a server, you only reboot to load a new kernel and you never use the console display, rarely change Oh, I dunno - it's not infrequently that I have to plug in a monitor-on-a-stick the drive layout or use removable storage, and almost never change the network connections - and you expect the same programs to run for years. On a desktop, the display is the first priority, ownership of certain devices is expected to magically shift to the user at the console, developers will give up consistent device naming for boot speed, and nobody cares if last year's programs still run with this year's OS. I don't agree with that. Some people do want to keep running what they know, and if the budget's tight mark, trying to find a prboom server for CentOS 5 ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Rajagopal Swaminathan wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 8:22 PM, Timothy Murphy gayle...@eircom.net wrote: Reindl Harald wrote: snip Don't you think you are in a very small minority, like 1% of the world? I live in India. hmm... I am one of the 1/6th of the population in the world and I don't own a laptop. I don't carry work home. Here one is supposed to be dedicated to one's family: either gender. Worrk is worrk (germaniK accent intended... :) ). Home is Home. YES!!! One reason I will *NOT* buy a smart phone is that in the mid-nineties, I worked for a major telecom here in the US. I wore a pager, and was on call 24x7.365.25. I'll never forget the Sunday, with a friend visiting from out of town, I got paged SEVEN TIMES, and most of it was because they didn't know what they were doing. You want me on call? Fine, PAY ME time and a half, or double time. I am *NOT* otherwise available, except to friends and family. And don't bother texting - I have that turned off. Email I live by... but that's on *my* time, when *I* want it. I don't carry a laptop up and back. As someone said, workstation, two monitors at work. Which percentage you represent? I work to live; too many fools confuse the two, and management *certainly* wants you to think that you should live at their beck and call. What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. Duh! come here to India and afford all those devices with Indian Salaries. Than talk here. Good points; I was thinking of that, and all the folks in the US who have them, but can't really afford that money. And then there's the rest, who *can't* afford that much/month. Actually I hate work after work hours. I have left many lucrative jobs for time with my family at wrong times per se. Agreed. mark ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On 11/15/2011 04:31 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Vreme: 11/15/2011 03:46 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us piše: The preupgrade is what I've been using the last year, and why I'm now building boxes here with 500M instead of 100M root partitions, figuring that it's what's coming for CentOS, eventually. +1 I doubt that. The issue isn't the technology but the support issues that can arise from updating systems between releases. Red Hat would have to test all kinds of update scenarios and not only between two releases but they'd also have to take into account systems that have been upgraded several times. I'm pretty sure they will stick to the service migration update path they are using now. Regards, Dennis ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Rajagopal Swaminathan raju.rajs...@gmail.com wrote: But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? I don't. Don't you think you are in a very small minority, like 1% of the world? I live in India. hmm... I am one of the 1/6th of the population in the world and I don't own a laptop. I don't carry work home. Here one is supposed to be dedicated to one's family: either gender. In the US, being dedicated to one's family means, among other things, that you will buy them electronic devices. Worrk is worrk (germaniK accent intended... :) ). Home is Home. Laptops are very much entertainment and educational devices. Things useful at home even if you aren't interested in technology for its own sake or using it for communicating with friends. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On 11/15/2011 02:56 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote: Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: Fedora is basically an incubator for new technologies and as such not really an attractive system to install for end-users. If you deal with servers you probably go with CentOS, SL, Debian, etc. and if you want a desktop you probably use Ubuntu. I don't really agree with this. If you are using CentOS on servers it is much easier to use Fedora on laptops, since Fedora is so similar in operation to CentOS. In fact CentOS is more or less identical to an ancient version of Fedora. That's why I'm running Fedora too but then I'm not an end-user but an administrator/developer i.e. I actually know how to deal with the intricacies of the system and how to keep my system up-to-date in the absence of a direct upgrade path. Users who don't know much about system management cannot really deal with the complexities that arise from Fedoras fast development progress. Incidentally, I don't really understand what is meant by the term desktop nowadays. I always think of it as a contrast to laptop. But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? Desktop in this context basically means a system with a GUI that's primarily used through an attached monitor and keyboard as opposed to a server that has no GUI installed and is primarily managed through ssh/IPMI. Regards, Dennis ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: On 11/15/2011 04:31 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Vreme: 11/15/2011 03:46 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us pie: The preupgrade is what I've been using the last year, and why I'm now building boxes here with 500M instead of 100M root partitions, figuring that it's what's coming for CentOS, eventually. +1 I doubt that. The issue isn't the technology but the support issues that can arise from updating systems between releases. Red Hat would have to test all kinds of update scenarios and not only between two releases but they'd also have to take into account systems that have been upgraded several times. I'm pretty sure they will stick to the service migration update path they are using now. preupgrade is only for migration for full releases, and does sorta kinda work It's been in fedora a year or so; I'm *not* looking forward to it hitting RHEL, and so CentOS, but I'm figuring it will, in another year or two. mark ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Steve Thompson wrote: On Tue, 15 Nov 2011, Timothy Murphy wrote: Reindl Harald wrote: But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? this is what some braindead developers seems to think but it is not true nor will it never get true! why in the world should i use a laptop in my office if i can have a Core i7 Quad combined with much more and better hardware as ever possible in a laptop? Don't you think you are in a very small minority, like 1% of the world? Not by a long long way. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos +1 ChrisG ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On 11/15/2011 05:23 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Les Mikesell wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Timothy Murphygayle...@eircom.net wrote: Incidentally, I don't really understand what is meant by the term desktop nowadays. I always think of it as a contrast to laptop. 'Desktop' is in contrast to 'server'. On a server, you only reboot to load a new kernel and you never use the console display, rarely change Oh, I dunno - it's not infrequently that I have to plug in a monitor-on-a-stick Supermicro boards come with IPMI on-board these days so you can do all that work that you previously did standing next to the server from the confines of your cozy home. This is even more useful when you server is sitting in a rack in a cold, noisy, dry collocation facility. Regards, Dennis ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:23 AM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: 'Desktop' is in contrast to 'server'. On a server, you only reboot to load a new kernel and you never use the console display, rarely change Oh, I dunno - it's not infrequently that I have to plug in a monitor-on-a-stick You only need that for installs or if you've done something wrong. And then it isn't really a 'display'/GUI as much as a text based tty emulator. the drive layout or use removable storage, and almost never change the network connections - and you expect the same programs to run for years. On a desktop, the display is the first priority, ownership of certain devices is expected to magically shift to the user at the console, developers will give up consistent device naming for boot speed, and nobody cares if last year's programs still run with this year's OS. I don't agree with that. Some people do want to keep running what they know, and if the budget's tight Then you probably don't run Fedora - the 'desktop' oriented distribution, or care much for the non-backwards compatible changes that went from there to RHEL. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: On 11/15/2011 05:23 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Les Mikesell wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Timothy Murphygayle...@eircom.net wrote: Incidentally, I don't really understand what is meant by the term desktop nowadays. I always think of it as a contrast to laptop. 'Desktop' is in contrast to 'server'. On a server, you only reboot to load a new kernel and you never use the console display, rarely change Oh, I dunno - it's not infrequently that I have to plug in a monitor-on-a-stick Supermicro boards come with IPMI on-board these days so you can do all that work that you previously did standing next to the server from the confines of your cozy home. This is even more useful when you server is sitting in a rack in a cold, noisy, dry collocation facility. Um, reality check time: what colo? I've got two server rooms, er, computer labs, and a very small one. In the two, we've got maybe 150 or more servers. We don't have them all wired with IPMI. In fact, we don't have any of them cabled that way. Lessee, wouldn't that be an extra port for each server? Or a few servers with their own switches, and all those servers cabled? That's a lot of work for the three of us, *and* there are plenty of times when no, IPMI either a) doesn't work, or b) you have to physically powercycle the damn thing. Or the one that I have to run down to and hit f1 so it'll finish posting. Or be there because I forgot to tell it fastboot before I rebooted it (or it rebooted), and I have to powercycle it, because, as a production box, we can't wait four or six hours for the fsck to complete. (Don't get me started on *that* state of affairs.) mark ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On 11/15/2011 05:40 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: On 11/15/2011 04:31 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Vreme: 11/15/2011 03:46 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us piše: The preupgrade is what I've been using the last year, and why I'm now building boxes here with 500M instead of 100M root partitions, figuring that it's what's coming for CentOS, eventually. +1 I doubt that. The issue isn't the technology but the support issues that can arise from updating systems between releases. Red Hat would have to test all kinds of update scenarios and not only between two releases but they'd also have to take into account systems that have been upgraded several times. I'm pretty sure they will stick to the service migration update path they are using now. preupgrade is only for migration for full releases, and does sorta kinda work It's been in fedora a year or so; I'm *not* looking forward to it hitting RHEL, and so CentOS, but I'm figuring it will, in another year or two. It might be available as a package but I doubt it will be officially supported by RHEL. sorta kinda isn't good enough for an enterprise OS. If business customers begin hosing their systems with these upgrades then Red Hat will be in quite a bit of trouble. Sure upgrading from a sysv init based system to systemd init based system might work well for your LAMP system but what will it do to proprietary clunky software that is running out there? Will your complex Oracle DB setup actually survive that upgrade? Right now customers have to upgrade by creating new installs that they can test independently of their running infrastructure which makes them ultimately responsible for the upgrade (migration really) process. With an upgrade path between major versions Red Hat will become responsible for that and I'm not sure they are willing to bear that burden for all the possible various installations out there. Regards, Dennis ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Greetings, On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:27 PM, Chris Geldenhuis chris.gel...@iafrica.com wrote: Steve Thompson wrote: On Tue, 15 Nov 2011, Timothy Murphy wrote: Reindl Harald wrote: been there, done that. I will be 49 years old, come mid-January 2012 I have just terminated your name -- to paraphrase Terminator[whateverversion] of Arnie I have not understood / udder- stood (It should have spelled understood, but it is a deliberate hack on that word ;) ) - this attitude. Hey!, One needs a family with wife and children. You know NRN's * -- With warm Regards and best wishes, Rajagopal PS: NRN: Shri N. R Narayana Murthy (Ex-charmain and CMD and currently the Charmain Emeritus of Infosys, India: Infosys.com) ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Am 15.11.2011 15:52, schrieb Timothy Murphy: Reindl Harald wrote: But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? this is what some braindead developers seems to think but it is not true nor will it never get true! why in the world should i use a laptop in my office if i can have a Core i7 Quad combined with much more and better hardware as ever possible in a laptop? Don't you think you are in a very small minority, like 1% of the world? no, no and again: NO and this will never be happen What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. what percent of them are owing a real computer as i do own a Android too - from where is the dumb assumption that smartphone-users are ONLY using a smartphone? signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:57 AM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: I don't agree with that. Some people do want to keep running what they know, and if the budget's tight Then you probably don't run Fedora - the 'desktop' oriented distribution, or care much for the non-backwards compatible changes that went from there to RHEL. Hell, no, I don't run fedora. I've got three or four users, and my manager on one of his systems, who do. I *LOATHE* it, with all the grief upgrades have given me. And, correspondingly, you probably don't really run any 'desktop' applications that are visual or audio/video oriented. There are reasons for that side of the coin, but they don't mesh very well with server use and remind me of the early days of Windows. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On 11/15/2011 05:55 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: On 11/15/2011 05:23 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Les Mikesell wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Timothy Murphygayle...@eircom.net wrote: Incidentally, I don't really understand what is meant by the term desktop nowadays. I always think of it as a contrast to laptop. 'Desktop' is in contrast to 'server'. On a server, you only reboot to load a new kernel and you never use the console display, rarely change Oh, I dunno - it's not infrequently that I have to plug in a monitor-on-a-stick Supermicro boards come with IPMI on-board these days so you can do all that work that you previously did standing next to the server from the confines of your cozy home. This is even more useful when you server is sitting in a rack in a cold, noisy, dry collocation facility. Um, reality check time: what colo? I've got two server rooms, er, computer labs, and a very small one. In the two, we've got maybe 150 or more servers. We don't have them all wired with IPMI. In fact, we don't have any of them cabled that way. Lessee, wouldn't that be an extra port for each server? Or a few servers with their own switches, and all those servers cabled? No, you can share the interface so you don't need any extra cables/ports at all. That's a lot of work for the three of us, *and* there are plenty of times when no, IPMI either a) doesn't work, or b) you have to physically powercycle the damn thing. Or the one that I have to run down You can physically power cycle the system with IPMI. to and hitf1 so it'll finish posting. Or be there because I forgot to tell it fastboot before I rebooted it (or it rebooted), and I have to powercycle it, because, as a production box, we can't wait four or six hours for the fsck to complete. (Don't get me started on *that* state of affairs.) You can hit f1 using the IPMI console. You can also modify the BIOS settings. The IPMI controller is a completely separate system. You can physically shut down the computer and still connect to the IPMI subsystem/web interface and power it back on remotely. Obviously if you don't have IPMI on some systems or cannot use it for other reasons then that's tragic but inevitable. All I'm saying is that for new system you should strongly consider it. Back in the days you actually needed to buy an additional card for this but as I said on Supermicro boards/systems you now get this on-board and it simplifies administration greatly. Just a few days ago I had to re-install a system and in the process change the SATA settings from IDE to AHCI in the bios. In the past I had to go to the server to do this. Together with the managed switches I can completely revamp the entire infrastructure if I wanted to and wouldn't even have to leave my home to do it. Regards, Dennis ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Tue, 15 Nov 2011, Les Mikesell wrote: In the US, being dedicated to one's family means, among other things, that you will buy them electronic devices. My wife doesn't even have an iPod yet, does that make me a bad person? ;) I'd say: In the UK, being dedicated to one's family means, among other things, finding ways to avoid buying most electronic devices. I buy old computer games, and she's *just* gone onto a £5 pounds a month mobile contract. You don't *have* to fully engage with modern society :) jh___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On Tue, 15 Nov 2011, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: Obviously if you don't have IPMI on some systems or cannot use it for other reasons then that's tragic but inevitable. All I'm saying is that for new system you should strongly consider it. Back in the days you actually needed to buy an additional card for this but as I said on Supermicro boards/systems you now get this on-board and it simplifies administration greatly. Just a few days ago I had to re-install a system and in the process change the SATA settings from IDE to AHCI in the bios. In the past I had to go to the server to do this. Together with the managed switches I can completely revamp the entire infrastructure if I wanted to and wouldn't even have to leave my home to do it. Yep, it works really nicely in small HPC machines, where it completely replaces the managed PDUs we'd previously used, and costs you no extra cabling. In my case these are all Dell machines (IPMI's been standard for years on Dell servers). When the IPMI controller can be configured to use DHCP with a poke or two of the buttons on the front of the machine (if it's not been preconfigured) it's really quite quick to rack up and configure machines. jh ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Vreme: 11/15/2011 06:06 PM, Reindl Harald piše: from where is the dumb assumption that There is no need for that. Mailing lists are for discussing, forums are for insulting and flame wars :D -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe Google is the Mother, Google is the Father, and traceroute is your trusty Spiderman... StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Greetings, On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:08 PM, Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:16 AM, Rajagopal Swaminathan raju.rajs...@gmail.com wrote: Laptops are very much entertainment and educational devices. Things useful at home even if you aren't interested in technology for its own sake or using it for communicating with friends. +-1 Look at Helios Project. I support them wholeheartedly. Ask Ken. I don't know if I will ever get a visa to US (in which I am least interested: am not willing to stand in the queue in US consulate), but, But, I will support Ken in all his endeavors, Remotely. If you want serious work done, I would prefer a Centos Desktop (5.x will do, as I have never installed Centos 6.0 yet, I would rather wait for Centos ISO [6.1|6.2]) before upgrading my production servers, which I am restrained upto Centos 5.2 as of a year back due to an idiotic fellow. -- Regards, Rajagopal ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Les Mikesell wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 10:57 AM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: I don't agree with that. Some people do want to keep running what they know, and if the budget's tight Then you probably don't run Fedora - the 'desktop' oriented distribution, or care much for the non-backwards compatible changes that went from there to RHEL. Hell, no, I don't run fedora. I've got three or four users, and my manager on one of his systems, who do. I *LOATHE* it, with all the grief upgrades have given me. And, correspondingly, you probably don't really run any 'desktop' applications that are visual or audio/video oriented. There are reasons for that side of the coin, but they don't mesh very well with server use and remind me of the early days of Windows. Um, users here run eclipse, among many other things. At home, I run mplayer, realplayer, browser, gwenview... what audio/video apps were you thinking of? mark ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Vreme: 11/15/2011 05:58 PM, Dennis Jacobfeuerborn piše: With an upgrade path between major versions Red Hat will become responsible for that and I'm not sure they are willing to bear that burden for all the possible various installations out there. I do not think they will, but 500MB boot partitions I create -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe Google is the Mother, Google is the Father, and traceroute is your trusty Spiderman... StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: On 11/15/2011 05:55 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Dennis Jacobfeuerborn wrote: On 11/15/2011 05:23 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Les Mikesell wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 7:56 AM, Timothy Murphygayle...@eircom.net wrote: 'Desktop' is in contrast to 'server'. On a server, you only reboot to load a new kernel and you never use the console display, rarely change Oh, I dunno - it's not infrequently that I have to plug in a monitor-on-a-stick Supermicro boards come with IPMI on-board these days so you can do all snip I understand you love your Supermicro boards. Fine. There's no way we're going to replace everything, which is what you seem to be suggesting. I would also need more ports, to plug in the IPMI interfaces on the boxes we have. Look (and, officially, I am speaking for myself, not my employer nor the US federal government), this is a US gov't agency. Why don't you call your Congresscritter and Senator, and tell them you personally want to donate the money to replace everything we have that doesn't have IPMI, and pay for the time install and cable it all up? That would be *great*... of course, some of our latest servers have 48 cores, and we just got some 64 core servers, so it might cost you a pretty penny Oh, yes, and then there's the official requirement that I be here during business hours. mark ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Les Mikesell wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:17 AM, John Hodrien j.h.hodr...@leeds.ac.uk wrote: snip I'd say: In the UK, being dedicated to one's family means, among other things, finding ways to avoid buying most electronic devices. It just got worse here with the Kindle fire release. Aside from being a nice toy it will have an account attached for instant purchases from Amazon. Um, no. Not until I'm assured that it was pull *only*, and that Amazon COULD NOT PUSH... or don't you remember them deleting 1984? And $200 for a book reader? snip mark ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On 11/15/11 6:52 AM, Timothy Murphy wrote: What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. to state the obvious, 50% of people are below average. mcdonalds sells more hamburgers than (pick-your-favorite-chophouse) sells steaks. therefore we should forget about steaks? there's more playstations/nintendos in the world than their are computers. -- john r pierceN 37, W 122 santa cruz ca mid-left coast ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On 11/15/11 7:41 AM, Timothy Murphy wrote: What about all those girls tweeting on the bus to school? twitter is for twits. -- john r pierceN 37, W 122 santa cruz ca mid-left coast ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Greetings, On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:27 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Why don't you call your Congresscritter and Senator, and tell them you personally want to donate the money to replace everything we have that doesn't have IPMI, and pay for the time install and cable it all up? That would be *great*... of course, some of our latest servers have 48 cores, and we just got some 64 core servers, so it might cost you a pretty penny Oh, yes, and then there's the official requirement that I be here during business hours. I have to apolgise here Dear Mark. Your country has placed so may restrictions on exports that even India (a de-facto nuclear power) does not have the privilege of having such hardware. Even Redhat is afraid. That said, I have had situation in IDC's where I have managed about 45 Rack servers and 10 Blades -- all (then) Sun X and V servers from ground (tile floor up) for an App that is designed to tun on only those servers. I know the enormous difficulties the customer faced, and I had to help them justify. So let us just chill. -- Regards, Rajagopal ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Vreme: 11/15/2011 07:04 PM, John R Pierce piše: On 11/15/11 6:52 AM, Timothy Murphy wrote: What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. to state the obvious, 50% of people are below average. http://www.internetworldstats.com/stats.htm Only 30% of people in the world use Internet. -- Ljubomir Ljubojevic (Love is in the Air) PL Computers Serbia, Europe Google is the Mother, Google is the Father, and traceroute is your trusty Spiderman... StarOS, Mikrotik and CentOS/RHEL/Linux consultant ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:00 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: In the UK, being dedicated to one's family means, among other things, finding ways to avoid buying most electronic devices. It just got worse here with the Kindle fire release. Aside from being a nice toy it will have an account attached for instant purchases from Amazon. Um, no. Not until I'm assured that it was pull *only*, and that Amazon COULD NOT PUSH... Sure, you'll have to click the button. But with virtually everything in the world at your one-click fingertips (both downloadable content and physical stuff, mostly with free delivery if you aren't familiar with Amazon). or don't you remember them deleting 1984? That wasn't censorship, it was correcting an error with appropriate refunds. I don't think they are particularly evil or controlling, just very tempting. And $200 for a book reader? That's a fantastic price for a color tablet - they are almost certainly losing money on it. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Make centos a new distro and forget about rh 2011/11/14 Alan McKay alan.mc...@gmail.com These seems to me to be the first message in the series and provides a really good summary of the changes at Red Hat which seem to be making life a lot more difficult for CentOS. Just figured I'd pull it out of that thread and change the subject line. Below Johnny's email I've copied another from the original thread, written by Lamar Owen, which gives some good explanation on how Red Hat is able to get away with this. Basically from what I gather, while Red Hat cannot restrict access to sources, they can restrict access to binaries. And since CentOS has a goal of binary compatibility with upstream, they are essentially left trying to hit an unknown target. But (now I'm stretching my limited knowledge even further) Scientific does not have this restriction since they are less concerned about exact binary compat. On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Johnny Hughes joh...@centos.org wrote: On 10/21/2011 10:01 AM, Les Mikesell wrote: On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Nicolas Thierry-Mieg nicolas.thierry-m...@imag.fr wrote: Johnny, chill. I don't blame him for being confused. Up until right now, you updated to a point release, then, over the weeks and months, there were updates. All of a sudden, there are *no* updates for the 6.0 point release, which is a major change in what everyone expected, based on history. this is the way it has always been: once upstream releases x.y+1 , there are no more updates to x.y (in upstream and therefore also in centos), until centos releases x.y+1 . Yes, but that used to be transparent, because the centos x.y+1 release happened quickly so it didn't matter that the update repo was held back until an iso build was done. Yes, and NOW the release process is MUCH harder. Red Hat used to have an AS release that contained everything ... we build that and we get everything. Nice and simple. Build all the packages, look at it against the AS iso set ... done. Two weeks was about as long as it took. Now, for version 6, they have: Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Workstation (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux HPC Node (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Workstation FasTrack (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server FasTrack (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop FasTrack (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Scalable File System (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Resilient Storage (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Load Balancer (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux HPC Node FasTrack (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux High Performance Network (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Virtualization They have the same install groups with different packages based on the above groupings, so we have to do some kind of custom generation of the comps files to things work. They have created an optional channel in several of those groupings that is only accessible via RHN and they do not put those RPMS on any ISOs ... and they have completely changed their Authorized Use Policy so that we can NOT login to RHN and use anything that is not on a public FTP server or on an ISO set ... effectively cutting us off from the ability to check anything on the optional channel. Now we have to engineer a compilation of all those groupings, we have to figure out what parts of the optional channels go at the point release and which ones do not (the ones that are upgrades). Sometimes the only way to tell is when something does not build correctly and you have reverse an optional package to a previous version for the build, etc. We have to use anaconda to build our ISOs and upstream is using something else to build theirs .. so anaconda NEVER works anymore out of the box. We get ISOs (or usb images) that do not work and have to basically redesign anaconda. We can't look at upstream build logs, we can't get all the binary RPMs for testing and be within the Terms of Service. And with the new release, it seems that they have purposely broken the rpmmacros, and do not care to fix it: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=743229 So, trust me, it is MUCH more complicated now than it was with previous releases to build. With the 5.7 release, there were several SRPMS that did not make it to the public FTP server without much prompting from us. And with the Authorized Use Policy, I can not just go to RHN and grab that SRPM and use it. If it is not public, we can no longer release it. So, the short answer is, it now takes longer. Thanks, Johnny Hughes Lamar Owen lo...@pari.edu via centos.org Oct 28 to CentOS On Friday, October 21, 2011 02:22:26 PM Les Mikesell wrote: Which is explicitly imposing additional restrictions. Which is explicitly prohibited in section 6. I don't see any exceptions relating
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:52 AM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Hell, no, I don't run fedora. I've got three or four users, and my manager on one of his systems, who do. I *LOATHE* it, with all the grief upgrades have given me. And, correspondingly, you probably don't really run any 'desktop' applications that are visual or audio/video oriented. There are reasons for that side of the coin, but they don't mesh very well with server use and remind me of the early days of Windows. Um, users here run eclipse, among many other things. At home, I run mplayer, realplayer, browser, gwenview... what audio/video apps were you thinking of? Vlc is probably the best of the bunch. But most of my laptop video-viewing is Netflix or from a Slingbox so I run Windows on the default-boot partition and run linux under VMware player or more often just connect to a server via NX/freenx for work. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Greetings, On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:43 PM, Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:00 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: And $200 for a book reader? That's a fantastic price for a color tablet - they are almost certainly losing money on it. Dear Les, Look at Per capita monthly income of other countries: less that USD 100. And do you think anybody would buy that when they have a family to support? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_%28PPP%29_per_capita BTW, that is per PPP. Which not related to _actual_ cash flow to meet a family of four (let us say,). also look at Current balances of US, Italy, Greece, Ireland etc. per CIA factbook (Well, I could not ) and let us talk further. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/rankorder/2187rank.html Where does US (and other European counties -- The online Factbook is updated weekly. ISSN 1553-8133) rank ? All I will request you all is to open your eyes beyond technology. -- Regards, Rajagopal ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On 15 Nov 2011, at 18:33, John R Pierce pie...@hogranch.com wrote: thats not amazon's target demographic, anyways. whats your point? Here we go again. What does any of this have to do with CentOS, the topic of this list? Does every thread have to degenerate into bickering? If only my iPhone supported kill lists... Ben Sent from my iPhone ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:30 PM, Rajagopal Swaminathan raju.rajs...@gmail.com wrote: And $200 for a book reader? That's a fantastic price for a color tablet - they are almost certainly losing money on it. Dear Les, Look at Per capita monthly income of other countries: less that USD 100. Averages don't mean that much in places with high income disparity. And do you think anybody would buy that when they have a family to support? Yes, if they were available there - does the much more expensive ipad have any sales? All I will request you all is to open your eyes beyond technology. Sorry, I thought you were just against technology in the home or saying that it somehow interfered with family life. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Nov 15, 2011, at 11:13 AM, Les Mikesell wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:00 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: or don't you remember them deleting 1984? That wasn't censorship, it was correcting an error with appropriate refunds. I don't think they are particularly evil or controlling, just very tempting. And $200 for a book reader? That's a fantastic price for a color tablet - they are almost certainly losing money on it. that's the general consensus http://www.npr.org/blogs/money/2011/11/15/142310104/why-amazon-loses-money-on-every-kindle-fire?ft=1f=1001 Craig ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (WHOA)
Hasn't this discussion drifted from the initial topic? I'm sure the price of tablets, of phone service, etc., are interesting to some, but PULEEZZE, look at the topic and ask is the message contributing to the understanding of changes at RedHat confounding CentOS David ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (WHOA)
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:39:12AM -0800, david wrote: Hasn't this discussion drifted from the initial topic? Until various repeat offenders on this list are moderated or otherwise dealt with this nonsense is going to keep on happening. I wonder if their employers are aware of the time spent on the company's dime that is squandered by misuse of this list... John -- All I ask is this: Do something. Try something. Speaking out, showing up, writing a letter, a check, a strongly worded e-mail. Pick a cause -- there are few unworthy ones. And nudge yourself past the brink of tacit support to action. Once a month, once a year, or just once. -- Joss Whedon (1964-), writer and film director pgpAIpou6kMpD.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (WHOA)
On 15 Nov 2011, at 20:10, John R. Dennison j...@gerdesas.com wrote: Until various repeat offenders on this list are moderated or otherwise dealt with this nonsense is going to keep on happening. The signal to noise ratio has always been pretty low on this list but lately it has become so unbearable I'm seriously considering unsubscribing. Ben Sent from my iPhone ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On Nov 14, 2011, at 7:56 PM, Alan McKay wrote: Both CentOS and Scientific Linux *aim* at 100% binary compatibility and they are both doing their best toward that goal. However, neither is perfect. That's interesting. So how is it they've managed to come out with 6.1 (and so long ago at that)? I got the impression that the reason owes to the fact that Scientific Linux is using a koji build server and had it up and running perhaps even before the 6.0 release. http://lwn.net/Articles/446556/ But in truth, don't trust what the non-invested people might speculate to be the reasons, the real answers can only come from the developers themselves. Craig ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 2:36 PM, Craig White craig.wh...@ttiltd.com wrote: On Nov 14, 2011, at 7:56 PM, Alan McKay wrote: Both CentOS and Scientific Linux *aim* at 100% binary compatibility and they are both doing their best toward that goal. However, neither is perfect. That's interesting. So how is it they've managed to come out with 6.1 (and so long ago at that)? I got the impression that the reason owes to the fact that Scientific Linux is using a koji build server and had it up and running perhaps even before the 6.0 release. http://lwn.net/Articles/446556/ But in truth, don't trust what the non-invested people might speculate to be the reasons, the real answers can only come from the developers themselves. And note that one of the SL developers has taken a position at Red Hat, so things might be different in the future http://scientificlinuxforum.org/index.php?showtopic=897 -- Les ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On 11/15/2011 06:42 AM, Steve Clark wrote: On 11/15/2011 09:35 AM, Reindl Harald wrote: Am 15.11.2011 14:56, schrieb Timothy Murphy: But isn't everyone today using laptops for everyday use? this is what some braindead developers seems to think but it is not true nor will it never get true! why in the world should i use a laptop in my office if i can have a Core i7 Quad combined with much more and better hardware as ever possible in a laptop? why in the world should i use a laptop @home where i have a dedicated place for a powerful machine with much less heat and noise than a crappy laptop? i have worked long enough with laptops and they was, they are and they will always be useless crap if you need power and comfort while you do more as webbrowsing or read a handful mails what i can do with my mobile +1 This is a great thread, I was just thinking about this last night because I have a client to whom I send pgp encrypted email because of the secure nature of his application data and he complains that he can't read my email on his mobile device and then asks me to text him authentication information for one of his servers. I think mobile devices have their place, but they don't replace a powerful desktop with a 1 or more good displays. Look at http://www.fuduntu.org . A whole new linux distro has sprung up (and is actually becoming popular) around the Gnome 3/unity thing with fedora and ubuntu because some people don't think that Linux GUI's should be primarily oriented toward hand held devices. Nataraj ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Rajagopal Swaminathan wrote: Greetings, On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 11:27 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: Why don't you call your Congresscritter and Senator, and tell them you personally want to donate the money to replace everything we have that doesn't have IPMI, and pay for the time install and cable it all up? That would be *great*... of course, some of our latest servers have 48 cores, and we just got some 64 core servers, so it might cost you a pretty penny Oh, yes, and then there's the official requirement that I be here during business hours. I have to apolgise here Dear Mark. Your country has placed so may restrictions on exports that even India (a de-facto nuclear power) does not have the privilege of having such hardware. Even Redhat is afraid. Oh? That level hardware is a no-no? I admit, they *are* brand new, and given the very serious scientific computing we do here, they're *needed* (some folks' jobs run, on a cluster like the above, 2, 3, 4 *days*. Then there was the guy about a couple years ago, who asked me to hold off rebooting his home directory server until his job finished. Two *weeks* later, I got to reboot That said, I have had situation in IDC's where I have managed about 45 Rack servers and 10 Blades -- all (then) Sun X and V servers from ground (tile floor up) for an App that is designed to tun on only those servers. I know the enormous difficulties the customer faced, and I had to help them justify. Sun? Debacle, er, Oracle? Oh, *Ghu*, I'm *so* sorry. It took me a month to get one server repaired, getting an FE out, the beginning of this year. (Meanwhile, Dell's had two SE's over the course of three days in the last *week*). If my manager, the other admin, or I have anything to do with it, we *ain't* buying more Sun/Oracle. So let us just chill. Actually no, we turned off the a/c in the room I spent, um, about 7 hours in with the FE between yesterday and today g mark ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
Les Mikesell wrote: On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 12:00 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: In the UK, being dedicated to one's family means, among other things, finding ways to avoid buying most electronic devices. It just got worse here with the Kindle fire release. Aside from being a nice toy it will have an account attached for instant purchases from Amazon. Um, no. Not until I'm assured that it was pull *only*, and that Amazon COULD NOT PUSH... snip or don't you remember them deleting 1984? That wasn't censorship, it was correcting an error with appropriate refunds. I don't think they are particularly evil or controlling, just very tempting. Yes, they were, They deleted it WITH NO NOTICE OR WARNING. Had they had anything resembling conscience, *they* would have paid the royalties, and eaten the difference. yoda voice Trust them, you should not. /yoda voice And $200 for a book reader? That's a fantastic price for a color tablet - they are almost certainly losing money on it. I just heard a report this morning, that it's estimated to cost $210 to build. *shrug* Never heard of loss leader? Think of the free cell phones you get, as long as you sign a contract. mark ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On 11/15/2011 06:56 AM, Timothy Murphy wrote: Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Currently, CentOS build system should be in much better shape and we will see how it will do for coming 6.2 point release (already in beta). Thanks very much for that. I found your account most interesting and informative. I guess one question that I've never seen raised is if there has ever been a suggestion that Centos and SL should combine, or at least work together? They seem to have exactly the same aim. I wonder why SL was set up, rather than offering to help the CentOS team? We have discussed a merger, however; they add things to the install discs that are not upstream that their users need ... we don't do that (as one example). We have different goals ... and for what SL rebuilds they want to be 100% binary compatible ... but they do not want their ISOs to necessary be compatible (if, for example, they need openais and it is not upstream). There is nothing WRONG with either approach ... they are just different. I saw statistics - I don't remember where - saying that CentOS had 30% of the Linux market, which I found very surprising, though also satsifying (to me). SL had a tiny share. (I remember now, it was someone complaining that Fedora's share was slipping badly.) http://w3techs.com/technologies/details/os-linux/all/all I belong to what may be the silent majority who don't really care if CentOS is absolutely up-to-date. (As far as I can see, none of the changes in CentOS-6.1 would make the slightest difference to me. I run CentOS on 3 home servers, and Fedora on my laptops.) I was very struck by the ease with which I upgraded to CentOS-6, compared with the nightmare (now hopefully over) upgrading from Fedora-15 to Fedora-16. It reminded me why I would never run Fedora on a server. To me, the reliability and solidity of CentOS are what I relish, and I'm very grateful to the CentOS team for their work. I don't mind them getting a bit crotchety at times! signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On 11/14/2011 08:56 PM, Alan McKay wrote: Both CentOS and Scientific Linux *aim* at 100% binary compatibility and they are both doing their best toward that goal. However, neither is perfect. That's interesting. So how is it they've managed to come out with 6.1 (and so long ago at that)? We have a CR repository that has a bunch of 6.1 (and updates newer than 6.1 as well) in there. It is not like there are no updates to 6.0 released. The ISOs for 6.1 are not released, but the RPMs are. signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Johnny Hughes wrote -- We have a CR repository that has a bunch of 6.1 (and updates newer than 6.1 as well) in there. It is not like there are no updates to 6.0 released. The ISOs for 6.1 are not released, but the RPMs are. --- I was wondering if it would be safe to just stay with the 'standard' repo for centos and wait for 6.1 that way or do you suggest adding the CR repo as a necessary event? thanks. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:16 PM, Johnny Hughes joh...@centos.org wrote: We have different goals ... and for what SL rebuilds they want to be 100% binary compatible ... but they do not want their ISOs to necessary be compatible (if, for example, they need openais and it is not upstream). But they also include revisor, so building different ISO spins should be the least of the problems. Splitting their additions to an extras-like repo might be slightly more complicated. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
I was wondering if it would be safe to just stay with the 'standard' repo for centos and wait for 6.1 that way or do you suggest adding the CR repo as a necessary event? Depends on if you feel that security updates are important to your infrastructure. John -- Of all the preposterous assumptions of humanity over humanity, nothing exceeds most of the criticisms made on the habits of the poor by the well-housed, well-warmed, and well-fed. -- Herman Melville (1819-1891), novelist and poet pgpI4R9UrBRxn.pgp Description: PGP signature ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Tue, Nov 15, 2011 at 4:00 PM, m.r...@5-cent.us wrote: or don't you remember them deleting 1984? That wasn't censorship, it was correcting an error with appropriate refunds. I don't think they are particularly evil or controlling, just very tempting. Yes, they were, They deleted it WITH NO NOTICE OR WARNING. Had they had anything resembling conscience, *they* would have paid the royalties, and eaten the difference. Where did you see something that suggested that would have been an option? I thought it was dictated by the publisher holding the rights. In any case, that goes with the concept of DRM controlled content, and while the device is somewhat oriented to their versions of things, from what I've seen it is not particularly restricted. -- Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Alan McKay wrote on 11/14/2011 09:56 PM: Both CentOS and Scientific Linux *aim* at 100% binary compatibility and they are both doing their best toward that goal. However, neither is perfect. That's interesting. So how is it they've managed to come out with 6.1 (and so long ago at that)? At least partly matter of priorities. SL finally released 5.7 on 09/14/2011 and just released the LiveCD/DVDs 11/02/2011. They did provide rolling 5.x updates, analogous to CR, in the interim. CentOS went for 5.7 before 6.1. Phil ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Tuesday 15 November 2011 09:52, Timothy Murphy wrote: What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. Not over 50%, but 5,5%, according to this source: http://www.netmarketshare.com/ -- Yves Bellefeuille y...@storm.ca La Esperanta Civito ne rifuzas anticipe la kunlaboron de erarintoj, se ili konscias pri sia eraro. -- Heroldo Komunikas, n-ro 473. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:41 PM, Timothy Murphy wrote: Benjamin Franz wrote: What percentage are using iPhones and Androids to access the internet? I'd guess it is already over 50%. Mobile devices still have *under* 6% of the internet browser market. See http://www.netmarketshare.com/ I find it very hard to believe that 90% of Chinese are using desktops. What about all those girls tweeting on the bus to school? There must be billions of them. Farmers/peasants have phones? All those girls tweeting? Aren't you confusing Japan with China? ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Tuesday, November 15, 2011 11:30 PM, Ljubomir Ljubojevic wrote: Vreme: 11/15/2011 04:14 PM, Rob Kampen piše: run a virtualbox with windoze XP for a realtor app that only works on IE (yeah, go figure, we are in 2011 and they force everyone to use IE) Install PlayOnLinux (Wine installer) and install IE6 inside it. Maybe your App will work without virtual Win. Yeehaa! That's it, recommend the worst IE browser available. ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS
On Wednesday, November 16, 2011 12:38 AM, Les Mikesell wrote: Worrk is worrk (germaniK accent intended... :) ). Home is Home. Laptops are very much entertainment and educational devices. Things useful at home even if you aren't interested in technology for its own sake or using it for communicating with friends. Ya forgot the other definition of laptops: preventor of family communication ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
[CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
These seems to me to be the first message in the series and provides a really good summary of the changes at Red Hat which seem to be making life a lot more difficult for CentOS. Just figured I'd pull it out of that thread and change the subject line. Below Johnny's email I've copied another from the original thread, written by Lamar Owen, which gives some good explanation on how Red Hat is able to get away with this. Basically from what I gather, while Red Hat cannot restrict access to sources, they can restrict access to binaries. And since CentOS has a goal of binary compatibility with upstream, they are essentially left trying to hit an unknown target. But (now I'm stretching my limited knowledge even further) Scientific does not have this restriction since they are less concerned about exact binary compat. On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 12:54 PM, Johnny Hughes joh...@centos.org wrote: On 10/21/2011 10:01 AM, Les Mikesell wrote: On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 9:51 AM, Nicolas Thierry-Mieg nicolas.thierry-m...@imag.fr wrote: Johnny, chill. I don't blame him for being confused. Up until right now, you updated to a point release, then, over the weeks and months, there were updates. All of a sudden, there are *no* updates for the 6.0 point release, which is a major change in what everyone expected, based on history. this is the way it has always been: once upstream releases x.y+1 , there are no more updates to x.y (in upstream and therefore also in centos), until centos releases x.y+1 . Yes, but that used to be transparent, because the centos x.y+1 release happened quickly so it didn't matter that the update repo was held back until an iso build was done. Yes, and NOW the release process is MUCH harder. Red Hat used to have an AS release that contained everything ... we build that and we get everything. Nice and simple. Build all the packages, look at it against the AS iso set ... done. Two weeks was about as long as it took. Now, for version 6, they have: Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Workstation (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux HPC Node (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Workstation FasTrack (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Server FasTrack (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Desktop FasTrack (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Scalable File System (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Resilient Storage (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux Load Balancer (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux HPC Node FasTrack (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Linux High Performance Network (v. 6) Red Hat Enterprise Virtualization They have the same install groups with different packages based on the above groupings, so we have to do some kind of custom generation of the comps files to things work. They have created an optional channel in several of those groupings that is only accessible via RHN and they do not put those RPMS on any ISOs ... and they have completely changed their Authorized Use Policy so that we can NOT login to RHN and use anything that is not on a public FTP server or on an ISO set ... effectively cutting us off from the ability to check anything on the optional channel. Now we have to engineer a compilation of all those groupings, we have to figure out what parts of the optional channels go at the point release and which ones do not (the ones that are upgrades). Sometimes the only way to tell is when something does not build correctly and you have reverse an optional package to a previous version for the build, etc. We have to use anaconda to build our ISOs and upstream is using something else to build theirs .. so anaconda NEVER works anymore out of the box. We get ISOs (or usb images) that do not work and have to basically redesign anaconda. We can't look at upstream build logs, we can't get all the binary RPMs for testing and be within the Terms of Service. And with the new release, it seems that they have purposely broken the rpmmacros, and do not care to fix it: https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=743229 So, trust me, it is MUCH more complicated now than it was with previous releases to build. With the 5.7 release, there were several SRPMS that did not make it to the public FTP server without much prompting from us. And with the Authorized Use Policy, I can not just go to RHN and grab that SRPM and use it. If it is not public, we can no longer release it. So, the short answer is, it now takes longer. Thanks, Johnny Hughes Lamar Owen lo...@pari.edu via centos.org Oct 28 to CentOS On Friday, October 21, 2011 02:22:26 PM Les Mikesell wrote: Which is explicitly imposing additional restrictions. Which is explicitly prohibited in section 6. I don't see any exceptions relating to what the consequences of those restrictions might be. The RHN AUP simply says that if you redistribute information from RHN you lose access to RHN. It does not restrict your right to
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
On Mon, Nov 14, 2011 at 5:57 PM, Alan McKay alan.mc...@gmail.com wrote: Basically from what I gather, while Red Hat cannot restrict access to sources, they can restrict access to binaries. And since CentOS has a goal of binary compatibility with upstream, they are essentially left trying to hit an unknown target. But (now I'm stretching my limited knowledge even further) Scientific does not have this restriction since they are less concerned about exact binary compat. You are stretching your knowledge to a wrong direction :) Both CentOS and Scientific Linux *aim* at 100% binary compatibility and they are both doing their best toward that goal. However, neither is perfect. http://lists.centos.org/pipermail/centos/2011-November/119250.html Akemi ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
Re: [CentOS] Changes at Red Hat confouding CentOS (was: What happened to 6.1)
Both CentOS and Scientific Linux *aim* at 100% binary compatibility and they are both doing their best toward that goal. However, neither is perfect. That's interesting. So how is it they've managed to come out with 6.1 (and so long ago at that)? -- “Don't eat anything you've ever seen advertised on TV” - Michael Pollan, author of In Defense of Food ___ CentOS mailing list CentOS@centos.org http://lists.centos.org/mailman/listinfo/centos
