subject:"Re\: \[CentOS\] died again"

On 12/13/2013 16:35, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 I note the absence of PAE for CentOS.
 I've read that PAE can be important.

Only if you're trying to address more than 4 GB of RAM on a 32-bit 
system.  Even then, most software doesn't take advantage of it.

PAE is an old hack Intel invented in the mid 90's to ease the transition 
to 64-bit computing.  Now that 64-bit is really, finally here, it's time 
to start forgetting that PAE ever existed.
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Re: [CentOS] died again

On 12/15/2013 16:21, Michael Hennebry wrote:

 the yellow stuff looks suspicious.

It's a kind of strain relief.  Without that flexible glue, dropping the 
computer could snap those caps off at their base.  Since this is the 
sort of thing that occasionally happens to computers in shipping, 
computer manufacturers try to make sure their machines can withstand a 
few of these sharp shocks.

After all, damage in shipping is damage during the warranty period, and 
the shipping companies are a PITA to get insurance money out of.

 The darkness near the smaller yellow spot indicates my inability
 to position both the camera and the light the way I wanted them.

That's why I mentioned reflectors and bounce cards among my photo advice.

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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-16 Thread Les Mikesell

On Mon, Dec 16, 2013 at 11:28 AM, Warren Young war...@etr-usa.com wrote:
 On 12/13/2013 16:35, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 I note the absence of PAE for CentOS.
 I've read that PAE can be important.

 Only if you're trying to address more than 4 GB of RAM on a 32-bit
 system.  Even then, most software doesn't take advantage of it.

 PAE is an old hack Intel invented in the mid 90's to ease the transition
 to 64-bit computing.  Now that 64-bit is really, finally here, it's time
 to start forgetting that PAE ever existed.

I think PAE is a required default in CentOS6 instead of an option.
CentOS5 had separate kernel versions.

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Re: [CentOS] died again

On 12/15/2013 16:49, Michael Hennebry wrote:

 Looks like I'll need to see whether I still have my multimeter.

That's not likely to tell you much.

About the only thing I'd trust a typical DMM to tell me about a PSU is 
whether its rails are within voltage spec.  You must do that test under 
load, and you need a fairly accurate DMM to get a result you can trust.

If the PSU passes the voltage test, it could still be bad.  The only way 
to tell, short of just swapping it, is to do an ESR test[*], which 
requires an LCR meter.  (It also requires removing the PSU board from 
the box, which exposes you to the dangers of AC wiring and charged caps.)

I don't think I've ever seen a DMM with an integrated ESR function.  If 
such a thing does exist, the DMM would end up being pretty expensive if 
it gave results you could trust for this, since we're talking about 
measurements under 1 ohm.  Decent LCR meters start at about $200 and go 
way up from there.  Cheaper to just gamble on a PSU swap.

[*] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equivalent_series_resistance
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Re: [CentOS] died again

On 12/16/2013 09:53, Michael Hennebry wrote:

 The one with the visible VENT and 105 printing?

Vent just calls out that there is a vent on the top of the cap, which 
it obvious without the label.  It's the scoring in the metal, which 
allows the top of the cap to break open in a controlled way if the 
pressure inside gets too high.  Without the vent, a failing cap holds 
the pressure in until it explodes like a firecracker.

The other label is actually 105℃, meaning that it's rated for a certain 
number of hours of use at 105℃.  That means it's probably a fairly high 
quality cap.  If you have to replace this cap, you'd want to match that 
temperature rating as well as the capacitance and voltage rating.

You'll probably find that *all* of the caps are 105℃ rated, so they'll 
have that marking on them somewhere.

(You think things are complicated already?  Wait until you start 
shopping for caps!)

 And to the right of the pink padlocky thing.

??

Do you mean the chokes, which have yellow cores and red and orange 
lacquered wire?

Or perhaps the dark gray cored inductors, with red wire?

Or do you mean the pink resistors(?) near the board edge?

 To me it looks too fuzzy to tell.
 I'm sure that is partly the dust.

Yes.  You should have blown the dust out before taking the pics.  It 
needs to be blown out regardless.

 VENT105 does look like it's bulging a bit.

It doesn't look like it to me.
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-16 Thread John R Pierce

On 12/16/2013 8:56 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 From this, I infer that 20-pin ATX's are sufficiently standardized
 that I do not need to be model- or brand-specific.


well, ATX 1.x stuff had more 5V and less 12V, while ATX 2.x boosts the 
12V output capacity and has less 5V...   I'm pretty sure even a AGP/PCI 
P4 is ATX 2.0, but I suppose I could be wrong.We're stirring some 
mighty old neurons here.  I ejunked all my P4's some time ago.



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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-16 Thread John R Pierce

On 12/16/2013 10:03 AM, John R Pierce wrote:
 On 12/16/2013 8:56 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 From this, I infer that 20-pin ATX's are sufficiently standardized
 that I do not need to be model- or brand-specific.
 well, ATX 1.x stuff had more 5V and less 12V, while ATX 2.x boosts the
 12V output capacity and has less 5V...   I'm pretty sure even a AGP/PCI
 P4 is ATX 2.0, but I suppose I could be wrong.We're stirring some
 mighty old neurons here.  I ejunked all my P4's some time ago.

ok, I googled it, the manual for your motherboard says ATX12V, which 
is close enough the 2.x spec that it should work.  I do see a suggestion 
that you use a somewhat higher 'wattage' ATX12V 2.x PSU to compensate 
for the differences.

btw, here's the technical product manual for your mainboard
http://downloadmirror.intel.com/15207/eng/D865GBF_D865GLC_ProductGuide02_English.pdf


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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-16 Thread david

At 10:27 AM 12/16/2013, you wrote:
On 12/16/2013 10:03 AM, John R Pierce wrote:
  On 12/16/2013 8:56 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
  From this, I infer that 20-pin ATX's are sufficiently standardized
  that I do not need to be model- or brand-specific.
  well, ATX 1.x stuff had more 5V and less 12V, while ATX 2.x boosts the
  12V output capacity and has less 5V...   I'm pretty sure even a AGP/PCI
  P4 is ATX 2.0, but I suppose I could be wrong.We're stirring some
  mighty old neurons here.  I ejunked all my P4's some time ago.

ok, I googled it, the manual for your motherboard says ATX12V, which
is close enough the 2.x spec that it should work.  I do see a suggestion
that you use a somewhat higher 'wattage' ATX12V 2.x PSU to compensate
for the differences.

btw, here's the technical product manual for your mainboard
http://downloadmirror.intel.com/15207/eng/D865GBF_D865GLC_ProductGuide02_English.pdf


--
john r pierce  37N 122W
somewhere on the middle of the left coast

_


Is there some reason that this conversation is in the public 
channel?  I'm not sure that power connectors to ATX boards is really 
relevant to the forum's topic.

David Kurn

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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-16 Thread Darr247

On 16 December 2013 @16:53 zulu, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 On Sun, 15 Dec 2013, Darr247 wrote:

 I see 2 components in ps4.jpg that look like they've ruptured.

 One in the mid/foreground with the yellow hot glue on it (the shorter
 The one with the visible VENT and 105 printing?

No. The short one (in 'front' of the electrolytic capacitor with the 
markings you mention) that appears to have an output choke (inductor), 
wound around the component and likely terminated to each lead.

The other one is to the right of the pink resistor, yes... it *also* 
appears to have an output choke wound around it.

Those are quite unusual, in my experience. I just took apart 3 dead 
power supplies here in the recycle bin and found swollen caps in all of 
them, but no chokes wound around components like that. Typically, 
inductor coils are wound around a piece of ferrous metal to intensify 
the flux, amplifying their filtering effect. On one hand you'd think 
it's a design flaw that extra chokes would need to be added like that to 
specific components; on the other hand it would point to extra 
engineering having been done to actually fix a specific problem instead 
of just pushing them out the door.

Then again - as others have mentioned - maybe it's just clumps of 
dust... and I'm imagining things.  :)

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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-16 Thread Michael Hennebry

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013, John R Pierce wrote:

 On 12/16/2013 10:03 AM, John R Pierce wrote:
 On 12/16/2013 8:56 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 From this, I infer that 20-pin ATX's are sufficiently standardized
 that I do not need to be model- or brand-specific.
 well, ATX 1.x stuff had more 5V and less 12V, while ATX 2.x boosts the
 12V output capacity and has less 5V...   I'm pretty sure even a AGP/PCI
 P4 is ATX 2.0, but I suppose I could be wrong.We're stirring some
 mighty old neurons here.  I ejunked all my P4's some time ago.

 ok, I googled it, the manual for your motherboard says ATX12V, which
 is close enough the 2.x spec that it should work.  I do see a suggestion
 that you use a somewhat higher 'wattage' ATX12V 2.x PSU to compensate
 for the differences.

 btw, here's the technical product manual for your mainboard
 http://downloadmirror.intel.com/15207/eng/D865GBF_D865GLC_ProductGuide02_English.pdf

That is where I got the 20-pin ATX stuff.
It just occured to me that I might want
geometric as well as electrical compatibility.

-- 
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goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-16 Thread Karanbir Singh

On 12/16/2013 08:28 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 btw, here's the technical product manual for your mainboard
 http://downloadmirror.intel.com/15207/eng/D865GBF_D865GLC_ProductGuide02_English.pdf
 
 That is where I got the 20-pin ATX stuff.
 It just occured to me that I might want
 geometric as well as electrical compatibility.
 

I wonder if its time to start considering a social list again; very
little of the conversation in this thread is really CentOS specific now.

-- 
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-15 Thread Michael Hennebry

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013, Peter wrote:

 On 12/14/2013 12:38 PM, Warren Young wrote:
 On 12/13/2013 16:20, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 Any ideas on how to proceed?

 There may be a final screw under one of the stickers.

 Yes, it looks to me like there should be a screw under the QC Pass
 sticker, right under the round circle.

Bullseye.
I took more pictures and added
web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu/~hennebry/computer/ps[45].jpg to my website.

No bulging capacitors, but the yellow stuff looks suspicious.
All the yellow stuff is visible in the pictures.
The darkness near the smaller yellow spot indicates my inability
to position both the camera and the light the way I wanted them.

Can anyone tell me for sure whether that
yellow stuff is supposed to not be there?

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reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-15 Thread Peter

On 12/16/2013 12:21 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 On Sat, 14 Dec 2013, Peter wrote:
 
 On 12/14/2013 12:38 PM, Warren Young wrote:
 On 12/13/2013 16:20, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 Any ideas on how to proceed?

 There may be a final screw under one of the stickers.

 Yes, it looks to me like there should be a screw under the QC Pass
 sticker, right under the round circle.
 
 Bullseye.
 I took more pictures and added
 web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu/~hennebry/computer/ps[45].jpg to my website.

#4 gives permission denied.

 No bulging capacitors, but the yellow stuff looks suspicious.
 All the yellow stuff is visible in the pictures.
 The darkness near the smaller yellow spot indicates my inability
 to position both the camera and the light the way I wanted them.
 
 Can anyone tell me for sure whether that
 yellow stuff is supposed to not be there?

I can't say for sure, but I think it's just glue that's used during the
assembly process.


Peter
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-15 Thread Michael Hennebry

On Mon, 16 Dec 2013, Peter wrote:

 On 12/16/2013 12:21 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:

 I took more pictures and added
 web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu/~hennebry/computer/ps[45].jpg to my website.

 #4 gives permission denied.

Fixed now.
Don't know why it was the only one without read permission.
Copied ps4.jpg and ps5.jpg with the same command.

 No bulging capacitors, but the yellow stuff looks suspicious.
 All the yellow stuff is visible in the pictures.
 The darkness near the smaller yellow spot indicates my inability
 to position both the camera and the light the way I wanted them.

 Can anyone tell me for sure whether that
 yellow stuff is supposed to not be there?

 I can't say for sure, but I think it's just glue that's used during the
 assembly process.

Looks like I'll need to see whether I still have my multimeter.

-- 
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SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-15 Thread Peter

On 12/16/2013 12:49 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 
 Looks like I'll need to see whether I still have my multimeter.

Not sure what you're planning to find on your multimeter, bad caps are
hard to detect.  The only real way I know of to properly test if a
problem is originating from a PSU is to swap it with a known good one.

At any rate, I would be very careful with the mm, a charged cap can
damage it.


Peter
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-15 Thread Darr247

I see 2 components in ps4.jpg that look like they've ruptured.

One in the mid/foreground with the yellow hot glue on it (the shorter 
one, between the inductor and the caps), and one hiding under the 
harness that exits the supply... to the upper-right of the green cap, 
near the PS housing.
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-14 Thread John R Pierce

On 12/13/2013 7:21 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 Rather than rip the PSU open (and hope you don't get zapped good by a
 charged capacitor...) just hook a power supply tester to it.  Or look
 online for instructions on testing it with a multimeter (more tedious than
 the PSU tester).
 I'll look, not touch.

me, if I had any reason to suspect a power supply, I would just get a 
new one, basic PC power supplies in reasonable wattage ratings are quite 
cheap.   examples: 
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817152032
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817371003




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Re: [CentOS] died again

I've tried to open the power supply to look for capacitor guts and such.
I've unscrewed it from the case and removed the
screws that seemed sufficient for separation.
The stumbling block seems to be under the QC PASS
sticker near the rainbow of wires coming out.
I've gotten the edge of a box cutter in the
gap that had been covered by the sticker,
so I know that the sticker itself is not the problem.

See web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu/~hennebry/computer/ps[123].jpg .

Any ideas on how to proceed?

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Re: [CentOS] died again

I noticed the the grub stanza for my F14 contains the line
kernel /vmlinuz-2.6.35.14-106.fc14.i686.PAE ...
For CentOS, I have
kernel /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.32-358.23.2.el6.i686 ...
I note the absence of PAE for CentOS.
I've read that PAE can be important.
Could it be the reason that an F14 boot lasts so much longer than CentOS?
If so, how do I get a PAE kernal for CentOS?

If not,
could I get or make a kernel version for CentOS similar to the one F14 uses?


-- 
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reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-13 Thread Warren Young

On 12/13/2013 16:20, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 Any ideas on how to proceed?

There may be a final screw under one of the stickers.
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-13 Thread Peter

On 12/14/2013 12:38 PM, Warren Young wrote:
 On 12/13/2013 16:20, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 Any ideas on how to proceed?
 
 There may be a final screw under one of the stickers.

Yes, it looks to me like there should be a screw under the QC Pass
sticker, right under the round circle.


Peter

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Re: [CentOS] died again

On Sat, 14 Dec 2013, Peter wrote:

 On 12/14/2013 12:38 PM, Warren Young wrote:
 On 12/13/2013 16:20, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 Any ideas on how to proceed?

 There may be a final screw under one of the stickers.

 Yes, it looks to me like there should be a screw under the QC Pass
 sticker, right under the round circle.

Of course.
Thanks.
I'll check it out on Sunday.

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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-13 Thread SilverTip257

On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Michael Hennebry 
henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu wrote:

 I've tried to open the power supply to look for capacitor guts and such.


If there was a problem with the PSU, you would experience it in your F14
install you spoke of.


 I've unscrewed it from the case and removed the
 screws that seemed sufficient for separation.
 The stumbling block seems to be under the QC PASS
 sticker near the rainbow of wires coming out.
 I've gotten the edge of a box cutter in the
 gap that had been covered by the sticker,
 so I know that the sticker itself is not the problem.

 See web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu/~hennebry/computer/ps[123].jpg .

 Any ideas on how to proceed?


Rather than rip the PSU open (and hope you don't get zapped good by a
charged capacitor...) just hook a power supply tester to it.  Or look
online for instructions on testing it with a multimeter (more tedious than
the PSU tester).



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Re: [CentOS] died again

On Fri, 13 Dec 2013, SilverTip257 wrote:

 On Fri, Dec 13, 2013 at 6:20 PM, Michael Hennebry 
 henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu wrote:

 I've tried to open the power supply to look for capacitor guts and such.


 If there was a problem with the PSU, you would experience it in your F14
 install you spoke of.

F14 craps out also.
F14 just takes a lot longer.

 Rather than rip the PSU open (and hope you don't get zapped good by a
 charged capacitor...) just hook a power supply tester to it.  Or look
 online for instructions on testing it with a multimeter (more tedious than
 the PSU tester).

I'll look, not touch.

-- 
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-08 Thread Michael Hennebry

On Sat, 7 Dec 2013, John R Pierce wrote:

 geez, its a 10 year old pentium-4, and not even a late p4, a middle aged
 32bit-only one   put it out of its misery, its been living on
 borrowed time for the last 5 years.

You mean since it was two?

Even when I have income,
I get annoyed about little mysteries that make things just not work.
I do not have any income,
so I also get annoyed at these little expenses that pop up occasionaly.
Apparently just to annoy me.


The symptoms have been changing.
Instead of a black screen, after a crap out,
I usually get a corduroy (sp?) pattern composed
of different darknesses of one color.

Sometimes pushing the reset button brings it back.
Often I have to do a power-off.
When I turn the power back on, the machine does not boot,
the reset button still needs pressing.

All this before I decided to do some dusting.
Turning it one one last time before dusting,
I noticed that the video card fan was not spinning.
Whether that was a change or I'd been inobservant previously, I do not know.

In light of previous comments about just moving dust around,
the Dust-Off started at the top and moved down.
It blew chunks out of the video card fan.

The video card fan spins now,
but symptoms have not changed since the dusting.
I can only use CentOS for several minutes.
F14 will usually last a lot longer.

-- 
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reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-08 Thread Les Mikesell

On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Michael Hennebry
henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu wrote:

 Even when I have income,
 I get annoyed about little mysteries that make things just not work.
 I do not have any income,
 so I also get annoyed at these little expenses that pop up occasionaly.
 Apparently just to annoy me.

You are taking this way too personally.  Things don't get old and
break just to annoy you - it happens to everyone.  Realistically, even
if you fix the power supply or whatever the cause is this time, it
won't be long before something else goes.   That refurb box would at
least advance the odds a few years.

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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-08 Thread Michael Hennebry


On Sun, 8 Dec 2013, Michael Hennebry wrote:

 On Sat, 7 Dec 2013, John R Pierce wrote:

 geez, its a 10 year old pentium-4, and not even a late p4, a middle aged
 32bit-only one   put it out of its misery, its been living on
 borrowed time for the last 5 years.

 You mean since it was two?

 Even when I have income,
 I get annoyed about little mysteries that make things just not work.
 I do not have any income,
 so I also get annoyed at these little expenses that pop up occasionaly.
 Apparently just to annoy me.

Perhaps John meant Get a Real Computer.

On Sun, 8 Dec 2013, Les Mikesell wrote:

 On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:27 AM, Michael Hennebry
 henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu wrote:

 Even when I have income,
 I get annoyed about little mysteries that make things just not work.
 I do not have any income,
 so I also get annoyed at these little expenses that pop up occasionaly.
 Apparently just to annoy me.

 You are taking this way too personally.  Things don't get old and
 break just to annoy you - it happens to everyone.  Realistically, even
 if you fix the power supply or whatever the cause is this time, it
 won't be long before something else goes.   That refurb box would at
 least advance the odds a few years.

Realistically, my abilities and my income
circumscribe what I can and what I should do.

-- 
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SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-08 Thread John R Pierce

On 12/8/2013 8:27 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 On Sat, 7 Dec 2013, John R Pierce wrote:

 geez, its a 10 year old pentium-4, and not even a late p4, a middle aged
 32bit-only one   put it out of its misery, its been living on
 borrowed time for the last 5 years.
 You mean since it was two?

i find most computer electronics have a half life of about 5 years.   
after 5 years, they get increasingly flakey.   your motherboard is a 10 
year old system, hence my 'borrowed time for 5 years' statement.

the 865G chipset on that motherboard was new in 2003, and the Pentium-4 
northwood CPU (I think thats what you have) were obsoleted by 2004 
(processors started coming in socket 775 rather than 478 circa summer 
2004).

that D865GBF motherboard was new in April 2003, and the final 
specification update was November 2004, although they probably did sell 
it for another year or so before it was withdrawn.   It was taken off 
support in 2007, so if you got it 7 years ago (2006?), it was already 
nearing its end-of-support-life.


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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-08 Thread Michael Hennebry

On Sun, 8 Dec 2013, John R Pierce wrote:

 On 12/8/2013 8:27 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 On Sat, 7 Dec 2013, John R Pierce wrote:

 geez, its a 10 year old pentium-4, and not even a late p4, a middle aged
 32bit-only one   put it out of its misery, its been living on
 borrowed time for the last 5 years.
 You mean since it was two?

 i find most computer electronics have a half life of about 5 years.
 after 5 years, they get increasingly flakey.   your motherboard is a 10
 year old system, hence my 'borrowed time for 5 years' statement.

You mean it was rotting just sitting on a shelf?
That is assuming mine was one of the first ones made.

 the 865G chipset on that motherboard was new in 2003, and the Pentium-4
 northwood CPU (I think thats what you have) were obsoleted by 2004
 (processors started coming in socket 775 rather than 478 circa summer
 2004).

 that D865GBF motherboard was new in April 2003, and the final
 specification update was November 2004, although they probably did sell
 it for another year or so before it was withdrawn.   It was taken off
 support in 2007, so if you got it 7 years ago (2006?), it was already
 nearing its end-of-support-life.

The warranty wore out.

-- 
Michael   henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu
SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-08 Thread Benjamin Franz

On 12/08/2013 03:31 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 You mean it was rotting just sitting on a shelf?
Perhaps surprisingly, systems of that age *can* fairly literally rot. 
There were a number of Taiwanese electrolytic capacitor manufacturers 
that borrowed a partial recipe from a Japanese company: One that was 
unfortunately missing an important component that kept the paste from 
eating the capacitor from inside out. It often initially manifested as 
system instability.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

I lost a couple of motherboards to it.

-- 
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Re: [CentOS] died again

On 12/6/2013 11:09 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 I noticed the TPM 1.2 .
 Am I going have to start dealing with the trusted
 computing crap when I get another computer?

TPM is totally optional to use.

it can be used so your system can establish a chain of trust with a 
server or network or whatever, but there's absolutely no requirement to 
use it.it also can be used as a trust store for secureboot and full 
disk encryption... If the OS has been secured this way, and you reset 
the TPM via the BIOS, you will have to reformat the disks to use them.

we looked at TPM for authenticating unattended clients making ssl 
connections, but getting all that working just so seemed a little too 
sketchy so we abandoned the idea.





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Re: [CentOS] died again

On 12/6/2013 11:47 PM, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:
 The TPM can be an issue but once you install the OS(LINUX) on DISK(maybe
 on another machine) it should fly by default.
 What is the meaning of Trusted by HP\COMPAQ? I do not know yet.

   From what I understand a Refurbished means Used and was used in a
 company\office the last time before being tested in lab.

refurbs can also be open box mechandise.  retail product returns. at 
dell outlet, a lot of the systems they sell are production overruns and 
order cancellations.   XYZ Corp ordered 30 of a specific configuration 
Latitude E7440, then cut back to 20, so Dell has 10 extra.   I've bought 
stuff from Dell Outlet, both the business version and the home version, 
its been fine.you have to check it a couple times a day for a few 
weeks if you want a specific configuration (say, a E6420 14, with the 
FHD screen, the backlit keyboard, a good CPU, and extended battery).





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Re: [CentOS] died again

On 12/6/2013 7:02 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 If I remove the right screws, I think that moving it farther into
 the case would allow it to be removed.
 For that, I'd want it on its side so that it didn't fall on something.

nearly all PC power supplies are standard ATX/EPS format.   remove side 
panel, case on side,  unplug ALL the power wires, untangle and extract 
the power harness, remove the 4 screws on the back panel around the PSU 
vents, and it lifts out from the inside of the case. replace with a 
decent brand supply of equal or higher wattage rating, and the correct 
ATX version (v2.1 or whatever). really old systems used much more 5V 
than modern PSU's offer, and used less 12V.   modern PSU's are mostly 
all about the 12V, the other voltages are lower current.  many newer 
systems need additional 12V plugs for the mainboard, like 2x2 or 2x3 
connectors.

In some system cases, the PSU is screwed to a shelf or bracket or back 
plate that comes out with it as a unit, then you disassemble them.

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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-07 Thread Louis Lagendijk

On Sat, 2013-12-07 at 00:58 -0500, Darr247 wrote:
 On 07 December 2013 @02:57 zulu, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 
 
 The CPU heat sink is under the fan pointing down towards the motherboard.
 You lift those 2 levers to release it, and there's likely another lever 
 under it all locking the CPU into the socket.
The picture is not very clear, but it looks as if the heatsink on the
processor has collected a lot of dust, probably blocking the air flow.
Do not yet remove the heat sink ( I am always weary of doing so) but try
to remove the dust first if there is a lot of it. 
Louis

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Re: [CentOS] died again

On 12/7/2013 3:01 AM, Louis Lagendijk wrote:
 On Sat, 2013-12-07 at 00:58 -0500, Darr247 wrote:
 On 07 December 2013 @02:57 zulu, Michael Hennebry wrote:
  
 
 The CPU heat sink is under the fan pointing down towards the motherboard.
 You lift those 2 levers to release it, and there's likely another lever
 under it all locking the CPU into the socket.
 The picture is not very clear, but it looks as if the heatsink on the
 processor has collected a lot of dust, probably blocking the air flow.
 Do not yet remove the heat sink ( I am always weary of doing so) but try
 to remove the dust first if there is a lot of it.


geez, its a 10 year old pentium-4, and not even a late p4, a middle aged 
32bit-only one   put it out of its misery, its been living on 
borrowed time for the last 5 years.



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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-07 Thread Benjamin Franz

On 12/06/2013 06:57 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 I suspect the pincushiony thing between the video card and the big
 black Intel fan of being the heat sink for the CPU, but I do not know.

That case looks very dusty and 60C for an Intel CPU tells us that it is 
most likely overheating.

The big black Intel fan is the fan for the CPU heatsink - which is what 
it is physically mounted on. *Don't try to remove it.* Since you didn't 
recognize a CPU fan on sight you clearly have no background in 
disassembling and reassembling PCs and you will most likely damage the 
CPU before you are done. Failure to reattach the CPU cooling fan 
correctly (which involves cleaning off the old heatsink compound and 
applying new heatsink compound correctly) **will** cause CPU overheating 
and system problems and can damage the CPU.

I would start by gettting a can of compressed air, gently place a finger 
on the black Intel fan blades so it doesn't spin (spinning up a fan with 
air turns it into a generator pushing damaging voltage back into the 
motherboard - you don't want to do that) and blow the all the dust out 
of the heat sink for the CPU while moving the fan blades with your 
finger to allow access to the entire heatsink. Then boot the machine and 
verify that the CPU fan is in fact spinning.

Also blow the dust out of the power supply (the silver box at the top 
left) and off the fins of the video card.

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Re: [CentOS] died again

I've got a side of the case off.
All the fans that are there are turning.
There is a place for a front fan, but no fan there.
Unless someone stole a fan, that is not new.
The plastic front of the case would have pretty much blocked it.
No obvious leakage from anything.
The power supply is a sealed unit, Enlight Corporation.
Cannot even look inside.

Any ideas?

In case someone finds them inspiring,
I'm going to get my camera and take some 
pictures.

-- 
Michael   henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu
SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-06 Thread Warren Young

On 12/6/2013 16:34, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 There is a place for a front fan, but no fan there.

It's common for cheap PC cases to have places for fans that the final PC 
manufacturer chooses not to populate.

If you decide to put a fan there, be sure to orient it so it blows in 
line with the case exhaust fans.  You don't want two fans blowing 
opposite directions on opposite sides of the case.  The plastic fan 
shroud usually has a molded-in arrow showing the airflow direction.

 The plastic front of the case would have pretty much blocked it.

Maybe not.  Some PC case bezels have vents at the bottom edge.  A common 
pattern is for the front PC fan to suck air in, and for the rear PC fans 
to blow air out.  Since they're usually at opposite corners of the case, 
this forces air to flow through the entire case.

 The power supply is a sealed unit,

I think you'll find that once you unscrew it from the case, you'll 
expose another set of screws that will let you remove the power supply's 
lid.  The odd hole in the back of the case is designed to block access 
to these screws, on purpose.

Don't touch anything in there unless you know your microfarads from your 
microhenries.  Just take pics.

 I'm going to get my camera and take some
 pictures.

Please do.  We may well see something you didn't.

Some advice, based on prior experience receiving uselessly bad pictures 
in the DIY electronics slice of my life:

1a. Turn on lots of lights and shine them into the case.  Experiment 
with forced camera flash.  Electronics enclosures (including PC cases) 
are often dark places, which means not enough photons for your camera to 
take a fast, sharp picture.  If you can't get enough artificial light 
into the case, take it outside and shoot into the case with the sun over 
your shoulder.

1b. Bounce or diffuse as much of the light as possible.  Lots of direct 
light is good, but if it creates blown-out flare spots or inky shadows 
that obscure detail, it's still no good.  There are many ways to make 
cheap diffusers and bounce cards: old thin sheets, tin foil, poster 
board...  Tenting a sheet over your head and the case can give a better 
result than a bright direct light.  If your camera's flash is 
articulated, bounce it into the scene rather than shoot directly in.

2. Use your camera's macro function, if it has one.  10 separate 
pictures of 10 details is better than one overall picture where you 
can't even tell how many pins are on a given chip.

3. Use a tripod, if you have one.  If you don't, brace the camera 
against something: a nearby wall, the PC case, a sandbag...  A camera on 
a tripod set for a 30 second exposure can compensate for a *lot* of 
problems in area #1.
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-06 Thread John R Pierce

On 12/6/2013 4:39 PM, Warren Young wrote:
 On 12/6/2013 16:34, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 There is a place for a front fan, but no fan there.
 It's common for cheap PC cases to have places for fans that the final PC
 manufacturer chooses not to populate.

its pretty common on high end cases too. the one I have now has room for 
like 8 120mm fans, of which i'm using 3.



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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-06 Thread Warren Young

On 12/6/2013 18:00, John R Pierce wrote:
 On 12/6/2013 4:39 PM, Warren Young wrote:
 On 12/6/2013 16:34, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 There is a place for a front fan, but no fan there.
 It's common for cheap PC cases to have places for fans that the final PC
 manufacturer chooses not to populate.

 its pretty common on high end cases too. the one I have now has room for
 like 8 120mm fans, of which i'm using 3.

The only reason I phrased it that way is that a lot of high-end machines 
use bespoke cases, where every fan position is populated because it was 
designed together as a system.

Anything built from a collection of off-the-shelf parts, as DIYers and 
some of the smaller high-end PC makers do, can have this same sort of 
design mismatch.
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Re: [CentOS] died again


I'd thought I'd sent this already.
Apparently the last crap out was before I'd hit send.
BTW the last few crap outs have been followed
with processor area temps up to 60 C.

I suspect that my jpg's are too big to go through as attachments,
so I've put them on my web site:
http://web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu/~hennebry/computer/

I do not recognize much, but I will list things I do.
The board with the blue heat sink is my video card.
The box in the upper left is the power supply.
The four card between the big black Intel
fan and the top storage rack is my RAM.
The top storage rack containg a CD reader
on top and a DVR-R burner just below it.
The lower storage rack contains a floppy
drive on top and two hard drives below it.
I do not remember which is the IDE and which is the new SATA.
Below the empty fan case below the storage racks is a pair of USB ports.
I suspect the pincushiony thing between the video card and the big
black Intel fan of being the heat sink for the CPU, but I do not know.

-- 
Michael   henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu
SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] died again

On Fri, 6 Dec 2013, Warren Young wrote:

 On 12/6/2013 16:34, Michael Hennebry wrote:

 The power supply is a sealed unit,

 I think you'll find that once you unscrew it from the case, you'll
 expose another set of screws that will let you remove the power supply's
 lid.  The odd hole in the back of the case is designed to block access
 to these screws, on purpose.

If I remove the right screws, I think that moving it farther into
the case would allow it to be removed.
For that, I'd want it on its side so that it didn't fall on something.

 Don't touch anything in there unless you know your microfarads from your
 microhenries.  Just take pics.

I do, but I'm still not likely to try to fix it.

 Some advice, based on prior experience receiving uselessly bad pictures
 in the DIY electronics slice of my life:

 1b. Bounce or diffuse as much of the light as possible.  Lots of direct
 light is good, but if it creates blown-out flare spots or inky shadows
 that obscure detail, it's still no good.  There are many ways to make
 cheap diffusers and bounce cards: old thin sheets, tin foil, poster
 board...  Tenting a sheet over your head and the case can give a better
 result than a bright direct light.  If your camera's flash is
 articulated, bounce it into the scene rather than shoot directly in.

My office has a large flourescent light.
If the pictures are not well enough lit,
I can change the illumination angle.

I'm open to suggestion, both in regard to lighting and in regard to subject.

For now, nap time.

-- 
Michael   henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu
SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-06 Thread Darr247

On 07 December 2013 @02:57 zulu, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 I do not remember which is the IDE and which is the new SATA.

The SATA drive has the thin red cable connecting it to the motherboard.


 I suspect the pincushiony thing between the video card and the big
 black Intel fan of being the heat sink for the CPU, but I do not know.


That's the heat sink for the northbridge chipset.

The CPU heat sink is under the fan pointing down towards the motherboard.
You lift those 2 levers to release it, and there's likely another lever 
under it all locking the CPU into the socket.

The only electrolytics I see on the motherboard that might be swollen 
are in the row right next to the CPU, towards the fan blowing out the 
back. But it's hard to see the tops of them, too... the 'K' cut into the 
tops of the electrolytics are where they're intended to rupture (instead 
of exploding like blasting caps)... not unlike the way cement workers 
score the surface after troweling, to control where sidewalks/driveways 
eventually crack.

The thin grey cables connecting the CD and DVD drives to the motherboard 
are most-likely not needed... the audio signal should go through the IDE 
ribbon cables without those.
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-06 Thread Eliezer Croitoru

What Refurbished means?

The hardware by itself looks nice but it might be a noisy machine.
HP support only windows Vista for this machine and I do not know what
bios and CHIPS it was built upon yet.

If it has the parts that this review claims:
http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/hp-compaq-business-dc7800/4507-3118_7-32598385.html

Then this is the official compatibility the chipset has:
http://www.intel.com/p/en_US/support/category/graphics/q35/cmptbl

I have not used yet a q35 based machine but it seems like kvm is
using\planing this chipset design as an emulated layer in kvm:
http://www.linux-kvm.org/wiki/images/0/06/2012-forum-Q35.pdf

So the basic assumption is that it was used by a client and then was
replaced by newer desktop to prevent something or just to move forward.

Compared to the +3800X2 I think E6750 requires more Power but it has
VT-x support.

Due to 2.33 I assume it's not the E6750 but maybe E6550.
And as long you do not expect it to lift your desktop to the air it
should be a good machine.

Compared to INTEL ATOM it is rated for 65w which most ATOM are about 15w.

Basic EMAIL(not 40k emails) and basic browsing(not too much concurrently
open tabs) should run simultaneously by default.
If you can buy the 4GB as a package it will give you more air to breath
while comparing it to the old machine.

The HDD state is irrelevant as I understand.

The basic issue with this machine is that in my part of the world I
cannot get replacement parts for it.

If you can try to ask in nearby small stores what MB they do have and
what parts are the basic ones today you will know what to expect.

Eliezer

On 05/12/13 22:02, Michael Hennebry wrote:
I'm considering the beast listed here, especially if my current beast dies:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883250296cm_sp=DailyDeal-_-83-250-296-_-Product
I note that it has an Intel Core 2 Duo and 2G of RAM.
It has those in common with a lot of cheap PC's I've seen.
Are there gotchas here that I should know about?
I'm already aware that Core 2 is on Intel's discontiued list.
My current beast has Pentium 4 with 4G of RAM.

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Re: [CentOS] died again

On Sat, 7 Dec 2013, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:

What Refurbished means?

newegg:
Refurbished products have been tested to ensure compliance with original
manufacturer specifications, and MAY include a limited manufacturer warranty -
see the item's product page for details.

The hardware by itself looks nice but it might be a noisy machine.
HP support only windows Vista for this machine and I do not know what
bios and CHIPS it was built upon yet.

If it has the parts that this review claims:
http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/hp-compaq-business-dc7800/4507-3118_7-32598385.html

I noticed the TPM 1.2 .
Am I going have to start dealing with the trusted
computing crap when I get another computer?

Also, I just noticed that the seller's answer to a
question suggests that the power supply is borderline.

Due to 2.33 I assume it's not the E6750 but maybe E6550.
And as long you do not expect it to lift your desktop to the air it
should be a good machine.

So no gotchas with Core 2 Duo and 2G of RAM.

Compared to INTEL ATOM it is rated for 65w which most ATOM are about 15w.

Basic EMAIL(not 40k emails) and basic browsing(not too much concurrently
open tabs) should run simultaneously by default.

Development work.

If you can buy the 4GB as a package it will give you more air to breath
while comparing it to the old machine.

Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-06 Thread Eliezer Croitoru

Hey Michael,

The TPM can be an issue but once you install the OS(LINUX) on DISK(maybe
on another machine) it should fly by default.
What is the meaning of Trusted by HP\COMPAQ? I do not know yet.

From what I understand a Refurbished means Used and was used in a
company\office the last time before being tested in lab.

gotchas with RAM ? like what?
If it's a RAM that can take your workload for more then a week it is
basically fine.
Only when you see weird stuff happening on the desktop you do understand
that there is something wrong.
You can do the same like in servers that each and every boot do a full
slow memory tests with the only difference: it do not have any ECC check
at all.

Do you run compiling jobs on this machine and\or plain Coding ? others?

Eliezer

On 07/12/13 09:09, Michael Hennebry wrote:
On Sat, 7 Dec 2013, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:

What Refurbished means?

The hardware by itself looks nice but it might be a noisy machine.
HP support only windows Vista for this machine and I do not know what
bios and CHIPS it was built upon yet.

If it has the parts that this review claims:
http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/hp-compaq-business-dc7800/4507-3118_7-32598385.html

I noticed the TPM 1.2 .
Am I going have to start dealing with the trusted
computing crap when I get another computer?

Also, I just noticed that the seller's answer to a
question suggests that the power supply is borderline.

Due to 2.33 I assume it's not the E6750 but maybe E6550.
And as long you do not expect it to lift your desktop to the air it
should be a good machine.

So no gotchas with Core 2 Duo and 2G of RAM.

Compared to INTEL ATOM it is rated for 65w which most ATOM are about 15w.

Basic EMAIL(not 40k emails) and basic browsing(not too much concurrently
open tabs) should run simultaneously by default.

Development work.

If you can buy the 4GB as a package it will give you more air to breath
while comparing it to the old machine.

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Re: [CentOS] died again

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013, John R Pierce wrote:

 On 12/4/2013 7:50 PM, Warren Young wrote:
 You questioned someone else's DMM in another post,

 actually, the other post didn't say how he measured the voltage, I was
 assuming via the motherboard monitoring circuits ('lmsensors' or
 whatever), which are notoriously inaccurate ...

I'd thought 'twas obvious that I'd used the only
method available without opening the case: BIOS.

-- 
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SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] died again

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013, Warren Young wrote:

 On Dec 4, 2013, at 1:22 PM, Michael Hennebry henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu 
 wrote:

 On Wed, 4 Dec 2013, Warren Young wrote:

 At $11 for a couple of
 tiny bottles, both of which you have to use together, it's another 2-3x
 more expensive than tape head cleaner.

 For me, the bottom line is how much it will cost
 to clean *one* CPU/heat spreader combination.

 Because I always have a Menda bottle full of high-purity alcohol on the 
 electronics bench, I find many uses for it.

 If I had to drive to Radio Shack every ounce or so to get a refill, I would 
 doubtless not bother for most jobs.

I don't have an electronics bench.
For me, this is a Very Special Occasion,
one that I hope notto repeat for a long time.

 100% is possible if you synthesize it

 I'm not sure what you mean by synthesize in this context.

 I mean assemble the molecules from bulk quantities of their constituent 
 elements. :)  Chemical engineering.

That is what I thought you meant.  I'm not sure that is even possible.
Judging from Wikipedia, no one makes it that way.

 As my measurement data in the post I just sent hints, there are serious 
 practical problems -- aside from the direct economic ones -- that restrict 
 the utility of such high-purity alcohols.  There's probably no point using it 
 outside a cleanroom.  Dust on the glassware will wreck the purity rating 
 otherwise.

I wasn't planning to look for 99.9% pure isopropyl alcohol.


-- 
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SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
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Re: [CentOS] died again

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:

 He has a 3.2 Ghz CPU which is much more then this 3800 but the only
 thing that the 3800+ is good is that it has 2 cores but still same low
 share ram ( I had one of these in the past).

I'm considering the beast listed here, especially if my current beast dies:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883250296cm_sp=DailyDeal-_-83-250-296-_-Product
I note that it has an Intel Core 2 Duo and 2G of RAM.
It has those in common with a lot of cheap PC's I've seen.
Are there gotchas here that I should know about?
I'm already aware that Core 2 is on Intel's discontiued list.
My current beast has Pentium 4 with 4G of RAM.

-- 
Michael   henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu
SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-05 Thread Fernando Cassia

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Michael Hennebry
henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu wrote:
 On the other, if it's something else,
 my diagnostic skills are clearly not up to the task.

Sounds like a job for DTrace
http://books.google.com.ar/books?id=jseJ56fUjJgCprintsec=frontcover

DTrace Tutorial for Oracle Linux 6:
http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E37670_01/E50705/html/index.html …
Dynamic Tracing Guide:
http://docs.oracle.com/cd/E37670_01/E38608/html/index.html …

Sorry to mention the competition on this list but OracleLinux 6.5 with
UEK includes DTrace built in.

ISOs
http://mirrors.wimmekes.net/pub/iso/
Public-yum
http://public-yum.oracle.com/repo/OracleLinux/OL6/5/base/x86_64/

If it helps debug CentOS in your system it'd be worth it. ;)

*hides under a big rock* ;-)
FC


-- 
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-05 Thread Fernando Cassia

On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 1:54 PM, Les Mikesell lesmikes...@gmail.com wrote:
 But in general, I always suspect power supplies first for mysterious crashes.

+1 power supplies with bad caps.

Two weeks ago I had one 2007 Antec EPS12V PS fail on me. Upon
inspection, bad caps.. (2 of them)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capacitor_plague

YMMV

FC
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Re: [CentOS] died again

On Thu, 5 Dec 2013, Fernando Cassia wrote:

 On Mon, Nov 25, 2013 at 12:25 PM, Michael Hennebry
 henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu wrote:
 On the other, if it's something else,
 my diagnostic skills are clearly not up to the task.

 Sounds like a job for DTrace

Looks interesting and useful,
but I have no clue how I would apply it to the task at hand.

-- 
Michael   henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu
SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-05 Thread Les Mikesell

On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Michael Hennebry
henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu wrote:

 He has a 3.2 Ghz CPU which is much more then this 3800 but the only
 thing that the 3800+ is good is that it has 2 cores but still same low
 share ram ( I had one of these in the past).

 I'm considering the beast listed here, especially if my current beast dies:
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883250296cm_sp=DailyDeal-_-83-250-296-_-Product
 I note that it has an Intel Core 2 Duo and 2G of RAM.
 It has those in common with a lot of cheap PC's I've seen.
 Are there gotchas here that I should know about?
 I'm already aware that Core 2 is on Intel's discontiued list.
 My current beast has Pentium 4 with 4G of RAM.

Depending on what you are doing, you might miss the RAM.  You should
be able to enable the VTx capability on that if you want to run KVM
but the option is hidden somewhere in the bios.

-- 
   Les Mikesell
lesmikes...@gmail.com
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-05 Thread m . roth

Les Mikesell wrote:
 On Thu, Dec 5, 2013 at 2:02 PM, Michael Hennebry
 henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu wrote:

 He has a 3.2 Ghz CPU which is much more then this 3800 but the only
 thing that the 3800+ is good is that it has 2 cores but still same low
 share ram ( I had one of these in the past).

 I'm considering the beast listed here, especially if my current beast
 dies:
 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16883250296cm_sp=DailyDeal-_-83-250-296-_-Product
 I note that it has an Intel Core 2 Duo and 2G of RAM.
 It has those in common with a lot of cheap PC's I've seen.
 Are there gotchas here that I should know about?
 I'm already aware that Core 2 is on Intel's discontiued list.
 My current beast has Pentium 4 with 4G of RAM.

 Depending on what you are doing, you might miss the RAM.  You should
 be able to enable the VTx capability on that if you want to run KVM
 but the option is hidden somewhere in the bios.

That's a nice price, but you really do want at least 4G of RAM. You might
see if you can add more, at least two gig - bring it up to 4GB.

   mark

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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-05 Thread Darr247

On 2013-12-05 2:51 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 I wasn't planning to look for 99.9% pure isopropyl alcohol. 

I buy 99% isopropyl at Meijer Thrifty Acres (grocery store chain here in 
the midwest).
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e273/Darr247/Electronics/198-ProofIsopropyl.jpg
I think that bottle was about $1.50 (price tags are no longer required 
by law, so I'm not certain).

I use Dow-Corning 340 as heat-sink paste, by the way... compared to 
Arctic Silver it's about 1/5th the cost and ~99.5% of its heat-transfer 
performance (and I've never seen it dry out like I have seen Arctic 
Silver do after a few years).
e.g.
1oz - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00D0HVYHI
2oz - http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CB2K3LG
There should be enough in that 2oz jar to do/redo dozens of CPUs (or any 
other component with a heat sink).
Unless you do a couple every week, the 140g tube 
(http://www.amazon.com/dp/B00CAVTGNE) would likely reach its expiration 
date long before it's half gone.

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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-04 Thread Steve Clark

Also did you check the Health Status in the BIOS, was the temperature in
spec with what the chip spec is. You can run cpuburn (program) and see if
running the processor full out causes it to shutdown.

On 11/28/2013 02:17 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 On Thu, 28 Nov 2013, Eliezer Croitoru wrote:

 The first thing is to check voltage in the BIOS.
 Then if it's by percentage 12V should be between 11.9 to 12.1 when these
 are quite not the best thing to have if possible.
 Also take a look at the 3V and 5V to make sure that all the voltage in
 the machine is in the acceptable percentage which should be about 1-3%
 off the 12.0 3.0 5.0
 ( It should be there in the BIOS)
 'Tis there.
 Don't remember what it said, except that 12v was 12.0v.

 The next step is to verify that the memory is not in high performance
 settings which can be high voltage or unverified settings.
 Most D865GBFL should work with most memory chips and cards out of the box.
 I do not remember if these boards do have memory settings in jumpers but
 since it's a P4 I would assume it's possible to see those (not yet
 finished to read the whole 142 pdf).
 The one I found is 98 pages.

 Try to adjust the agp Aperture size to lower then 64MB (16).
 I saw something about aperature size.
 Is it how many memory addresses allocated to AGP?

 The next step will be to restore the bios defaults settings and
 disabling the 1.44 (unless you have one).
 That means the floppy drive?
 I have one.

 Also don't be tempted to replace this beast with a ARM\ATOM or any other
 suggestion that might not understand what a 3.2 P4 can do that the BEST
 ATOM cpu cannot.
 Not tempted.  My machine was somewhat high-end when I got it.

 I do not know where you live at and there-for the price can vary from
 one place to another and which can be over 200$ and over 300$.
 Fargo, ND.

 This machine is not described as Linux compatible by INTEL and which can
 or cannot be a reason for anything and the change of Plug And Play flag
 in the bios might help to solve some problems\issues.
 The current setting, which I think is the default,
 is Plug and Play OS no, which meands that
 the BIOS configures things instead of the OS.

 It is possible that the power supply was a bit loaded using two disk
 devices and which can cause some system freezes when a high load is
 there on it for a long period of time.
 The second drive has been there for a long time.
 It might have even been an option when I first got the machine.
 There are still two empty slots on the rack.

 To make sure that the power supply is there and working properly not
 harming any hardware you should open the case (if it's an easy to open
 I have no basis for comparing with other desktops,
 but I can see that I will need to open it.

 one) while it's off the network grid and make sure that all capacitors
 are in a good shape.
 I am almost sure that this CPU is a 32bit and if you don't need(like
 Correct.

 many) the fancy GRAPHICS and some additions that was added to the latest
 and shiny releases of Fedora then 14 is just fine.
 Even if F14 still got security updates,
 I'd still want to know why CentOS has been crapping out on me.
 It might affect F14 eventually.

 The basic badblocks tool can help you discover if there is a problem
 with the software accessing any of the drives.
 Note that it happens that access to a DISK can be because of a cable
 sometimes.
 I got a bunch of orphan node once,
 but since then, fsck has been giving the partition a clean bill of health.

 In a case you want to make sure that the problem is in another level
 then the DISK you can try to work with a LIVE dvd\cd not touching any
 DISK IO while working on the PC.(this machine do not have USB boot
 support the last time I checked).


-- 
Stephen Clark
*NetWolves*
Director of Technology
Phone: 813-579-3200
Fax: 813-882-0209
Email: steve.cl...@netwolves.com
http://www.netwolves.com
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Re: [CentOS] died again

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013, Steve Clark wrote:

 Also did you check the Health Status in the BIOS, was the temperature in
 spec with what the chip spec is. You can run cpuburn (program) and see if
 running the processor full out causes it to shutdown.

Once upon a time, the CPU area temperature was 80 C,
which got a BING! BING! BING! from m.roth.

Also, the last time  checked I noticed that 5v was 5.263, more than 3% error.


On Tue, 3 Dec 2013, Thomas Dineen wrote:

It will be easier and cheaper to by a static grounding strap
 that you wear on your wrist and connect to a conducting part
 of the metal cabnet.

My plan involved a wire-wrap wire bracelet and a megohm resistor.
Connecting the other end to a bare metal part of the case is sufficient?
I don't need an actual ground?


-- 
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SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] died again

On 12/4/2013 9:42 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 Once upon a time, the CPU area temperature was 80 C,
 which got a BING! BING! BING! from m.roth.

 Also, the last time  checked I noticed that 5v was 5.263, more than 3% error.

I'd only believe that if you double checked it with a known accurate 
volt meter.



-- 
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somewhere on the middle of the left coast

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Re: [CentOS] died again

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013, John R Pierce wrote:

 On 12/4/2013 9:42 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 Once upon a time, the CPU area temperature was 80 C,
 which got a BING! BING! BING! from m.roth.

 Also, the last time  checked I noticed that 5v was 5.263, more than 3% error.

 I'd only believe that if you double checked it with a known accurate
 volt meter.

From that comment, I infer that were 5.263 the actual voltage,
my computer would be misbehaving much more severely.

-- 
Michael   henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu
SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
goat to your SCSI chain now and then.   --   John Woods
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-04 Thread m . roth

Michael Hennebry wrote:
 On Wed, 4 Dec 2013, John R Pierce wrote:

 On 12/4/2013 9:42 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 Once upon a time, the CPU area temperature was 80 C,
 which got a BING! BING! BING! from m.roth.

 Also, the last time  checked I noticed that 5v was 5.263, more than 3%
 error.

 I'd only believe that if you double checked it with a known accurate
 volt meter.

From that comment, I infer that were 5.263 the actual voltage,
 my computer would be misbehaving much more severely.

Hmmm... that's a though: once you open it up, you might disconnect and
measure the output of the power supply with a multimeter. If that's
misbehaving, you're talking $40 or so for a new one.

   mark

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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-04 Thread Warren Young

On 12/3/2013 22:09, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 On Tue, 3 Dec 2013, Patrick Lists wrote:

 They mention high-purity isopropyl alcohol.
 The highest purity I've ever seen is 70%.

The vast majority of the impurity in commercial grade alcohol is water. 
  Capillary action sucks the fluid into all kinds of areas you might not 
expect -- like under chips -- and it stays there longer than you might 
guess because restricted airflow goes hand in hand with capillary 
action.  Also, water evaporates far less readily than alcohol, 
increasing drying time.

The rest of the impurity is dissolved solids, which gets left behind 
when the liquid evaporates.  It also makes the fluid conductive.  (Pure 
alcohol and pure water are *not* conductive.)  Conductive liquid is 
obviously bad for computers, especially if it's still present when you 
apply power.  See previous paragraph. :)

Bottom line: 70% is too impure for this task.

I hesitate to use even 90% for this.  The last time I used 90% isopropyl 
on a PCB, it left behind a white haze that I had to scrub off with a dry 
toothbrush.

I bought a box (!) of 99% isopropyl years ago: http://goo.gl/7DYP8Y

It's fairly expensive to ship, but even so, it comes out cheaper than 
the alternatives you're likely to have locally.  Figure $0.30 - $0.40 
per ounce, all told.  You'll probably be set for life.  (Tip: Add a 
Menda bottle for your work table to your order, so you can keep the box 
safe, like in a shed or garage.)

Radio Shack used to sell tape head cleaner for $1 an ounce.  I'd guess 
it's no longer available because there's not as much call for tape head 
cleaning products these days.

While looking for up-to-date info on Radio Shack's web site, I came 
across this relevant item: http://goo.gl/nLzub7  At $11 for a couple of 
tiny bottles, both of which you have to use together, it's another 2-3x 
more expensive than tape head cleaner.  Plus, if you look into the MSDS, 
the first part is acidic, so you must need the second pass to neutralize 
what's left behind on the first pass.  Sounds like a bad plan to me.

Everclear 190 proof should also work for this.  At $20 per fifth, it 
comes out under $1/oz, so cheaper than the RS fluids, but still more 
expensive than the box o' isopropyl.  Some households will find it a 
more widely useful commodity, so there's that. :)

For what it's worth, you can get even purer isopropyl alcohol intended 
for lab use.  Prices I found online ranged from about $60-100 per liter, 
or $2-3/oz, shipped.  100% is possible if you synthesize it, at even 
higher cost.
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Re: [CentOS] died again

On 12/4/2013 10:22 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 On Wed, 4 Dec 2013, John R Pierce wrote:

 On 12/4/2013 9:42 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 Once upon a time, the CPU area temperature was 80 C,
 which got a BING! BING! BING! from m.roth.
 
 Also, the last time  checked I noticed that 5v was 5.263, more than 3% 
 error.
 
 I'd only believe that if you double checked it with a known accurate
 volt meter.
 From that comment, I infer that were 5.263 the actual voltage,
 my computer would be misbehaving much more severely.

almost nothing in the system actually runs directly on 5V anymore. the 
CPU runs on some fraction of a volt at stupid high current, generated by 
DC-DC regulators which use the 12V supply as their input.  Ditto, the 
ram runs on like 1.8V nowdays, same thing, regulated off 12V.   most 
peripheral logic is 3V or less nowdays.

disk drives use 5V (and 3.5 drives use 12V) but they also ahve their 
own internal voltage converters and regulators.






-- 
john r pierce  37N 122W
somewhere on the middle of the left coast

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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-04 Thread Peter

On 12/05/2013 06:42 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 My plan involved a wire-wrap wire bracelet and a megohm resistor.
 Connecting the other end to a bare metal part of the case is sufficient?
 I don't need an actual ground?

No you need an actual ground.  If the case is left plugged in this would
be sufficient but is probably a bad idea for other (obvious) reasons.
Find something else to attach the strap (or whatever) to and make sure
it's grounded.


Peter

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Re: [CentOS] died again

On 12/4/2013 11:25 AM, Peter wrote:
 On 12/05/2013 06:42 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 My plan involved a wire-wrap wire bracelet and a megohm resistor.
 Connecting the other end to a bare metal part of the case is sufficient?
 I don't need an actual ground?
 No you need an actual ground.  If the case is left plugged in this would
 be sufficient but is probably a bad idea for other (obvious) reasons.
 Find something else to attach the strap (or whatever) to and make sure
 it's grounded.


the case has to be grounded to the same ground or it won't do much good.

I've never had any issues with static as long as I touch the metal 
chassis first before handling circuitry, but I also live on the coast 
where we don't need air conditioning, and hte humidity is moderate.


-- 
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Re: [CentOS] died again

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013, Warren Young wrote:

 On 12/3/2013 22:09, Michael Hennebry wrote:

 They mention high-purity isopropyl alcohol.
 The highest purity I've ever seen is 70%.

 Bottom line: 70% is too impure for this task.

 I hesitate to use even 90% for this.  The last time I used 90% isopropyl

 While looking for up-to-date info on Radio Shack's web site, I came
 across this relevant item: http://goo.gl/nLzub7  At $11 for a couple of
 tiny bottles, both of which you have to use together, it's another 2-3x
 more expensive than tape head cleaner.  Plus, if you look into the MSDS,
 the first part is acidic, so you must need the second pass to neutralize
 what's left behind on the first pass.  Sounds like a bad plan to me.

For me, the bottom line is how much it will cost
to clean *one* CPU/heat spreader combination.
It looks like the answer is going to be
a bottle I saw at Radio Shack for $11.

 Everclear 190 proof should also work for this.  At $20 per fifth, it
 comes out under $1/oz, so cheaper than the RS fluids, but still more
 expensive than the box o' isopropyl.  Some households will find it a
 more widely useful commodity, so there's that. :)

I didn't use everclear when I did drink.

 For what it's worth, you can get even purer isopropyl alcohol intended
 for lab use.  Prices I found online ranged from about $60-100 per liter,
 or $2-3/oz, shipped.  100% is possible if you synthesize it, at even
 higher cost.

I'm not sure what you mean by synthesize in this context.
Alternating freeze- and evaporative-distillation
can get you anything less than 100%.
That said, 'tain't necessarily economical.
At some point, I suspect getting rid of the water through
electrolysis or some other chemistry might be better.

-- 
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SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
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Re: [CentOS] died again

On Wed, 4 Dec 2013, John R Pierce wrote:

 On 12/4/2013 11:25 AM, Peter wrote:
 On 12/05/2013 06:42 AM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 My plan involved a wire-wrap wire bracelet and a megohm resistor.
 Connecting the other end to a bare metal part of the case is sufficient?
 I don't need an actual ground?
 No you need an actual ground.  If the case is left plugged in this would
 be sufficient but is probably a bad idea for other (obvious) reasons.
 Find something else to attach the strap (or whatever) to and make sure
 it's grounded.


 the case has to be grounded to the same ground or it won't do much good.

The new plan is to connect myself to the case through a megohm resistor
and the case to a heating vent through another megohm resistor.

-- 
Michael   henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu
SCSI is NOT magic. There are *fundamental technical
reasons* why it is necessary to sacrifice a young
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Re: [CentOS] died again

On 12/4/2013 10:44 AM, Warren Young wrote:
 Bottom line: 70% is too impure for this task.


Huh?!?  I've cleaned numerous CPU-heatsink surfaces with 70% isopropyl, 
never had any problem  heck, I clean optical lenses with it, in the 
form of those eyeglass wipes you buy by the crate at Costco.

in tests we did 30 something years ago, the 90% medical stuff left a 
white haze, while the 70% regular rubbing stuff didn't.   we were using 
it for cleaning the heads and tape paths of 9 track computer tape 
drives.sure, the analytic laboratory grade was clean, but also 
stupid expensive, as we were going through a quart a week cleaning a 
dozen high speed tape drives 3 shifts a day 6 days a week (they were in 
constant use loading tapes shipped to us from vendors, so got rather 
dirty rather fast).








-- 
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-04 Thread Eliezer Croitoru

Hey there,

He has a 3.2 Ghz CPU which is much more then this 3800 but the only 
thing that the 3800+ is good is that it has 2 cores but still same low 
share ram ( I had one of these in the past).

Eliezer

On 28/11/13 12:29, John R Pierce wrote:
 On 11/26/2013 3:58 PM, Michael Hennebry wrote:
 $300 desktops? Where?

 how about under $100 for a complete desktop?

 http://www.newegg.com/Special/ShellShocker.aspx?nm_mc=EMC-SD112013cm_mmc=EMC-SD112013-_-SD112813-_-item-_-83-155-932et_cid=3212et_rid=117069

 you'll need to subscribe to newegg's shellshocker list before you can
 order it, and this deal is only 'visible' and valid from 3-6pm PST
 tomorrow (Thanksgiving Day), its a refurb Dell OptiPlex GX740 stripped
 model, miditower with an AMD Athlon 64 X2 3800+ dual core 2Ghz, 2GB ram,
 80GB HD, keyboard, mouse.   For $95 (after a $10 mail-in-rebate).
 I'd want to add at least 4GB more memory (it will take max 4 x 2GB ==
 8GB DDR2 dimms... I suspect it comes with 2 x 1GB), and  my existing
 SATA disks (it has 4 SATA ports).




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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-04 Thread Warren Young

On Dec 4, 2013, at 1:49 PM, John R Pierce pie...@hogranch.com wrote:

 On 12/4/2013 10:44 AM, Warren Young wrote:
 Bottom line: 70% is too impure for this task.
 
 Huh?!?  I've cleaned numerous CPU-heatsink surfaces with 70% isopropyl, 
 never had any problem….

I'm not saying it's impossible.  An expert can ameliorate many risks through 
skill.  That is no reason to recommend a risky process.

I listed the theoretical risks in my previous post.  Now for some experimental 
data.

I filled a plastic bowl to a depth of 1 inch with the contents of a 21-year-old 
bottle of 70% rubbing alcohol from my medicine cabinet.  (Ah, 1992…it was a 
good year.)  I then inserted my bench DMM's probes into the bowl, spacing them 
approximately 1 inch apart.  I read 377 kΩ.

I sanity checked this measurement by moving the probes closer to each other, 
then farther apart, and observed that the resistance changed as expected.

I poured the rubbing alcohol back into the bottle, dried the bowl with a towel, 
poured the contents of my electronics bench's Menda bottle -- nominally 99+% 
pure isopropyl alcohol -- into the bowl, then tested again.  This time I read 
over 2 MΩ.

I was expecting a higher value, or even an overload indication.  I decided to 
refill the Menda bottle straight from the cubitainer in order to rule out 
impurities in the bowl, and also the natural concentration of impurities due to 
evaporation from the Menda bottle.  This time I read over 8 MΩ.

You questioned someone else's DMM in another post, so I will pre-defend mine.  
It's a general purpose bench meter, not a dedicated insulation tester, but it 
will go up to 1 GΩ, and the company that made the meter isn't the sort that 
publishes bogus specs.  It's been a while since it was calibrated, but for 3 
digit readings, I'm confident enough in its quality of design and manufacture 
to trust those readings anyway.

 I clean optical lenses with it, in the 
 form of those eyeglass wipes you buy by the crate at Costco.

I use my tee shirt.  :)

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Re: [CentOS] died again

On 12/4/2013 7:50 PM, Warren Young wrote:
 You questioned someone else's DMM in another post,

actually, the other post didn't say how he measured the voltage, I was 
assuming via the motherboard monitoring circuits ('lmsensors' or 
whatever), which are notoriously inaccurate ...



-- 
john r pierce  37N 122W
somewhere on the middle of the left coast

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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-04 Thread Warren Young

On Dec 4, 2013, at 1:22 PM, Michael Hennebry henne...@web.cs.ndsu.nodak.edu 
wrote:

 On Wed, 4 Dec 2013, Warren Young wrote:
 
 At $11 for a couple of
 tiny bottles, both of which you have to use together, it's another 2-3x
 more expensive than tape head cleaner.
 
 For me, the bottom line is how much it will cost
 to clean *one* CPU/heat spreader combination.

Because I always have a Menda bottle full of high-purity alcohol on the 
electronics bench, I find many uses for it.

If I had to drive to Radio Shack every ounce or so to get a refill, I would 
doubtless not bother for most jobs.

 100% is possible if you synthesize it
 
 I'm not sure what you mean by synthesize in this context.

I mean assemble the molecules from bulk quantities of their constituent 
elements. :)  Chemical engineering.

As my measurement data in the post I just sent hints, there are serious 
practical problems -- aside from the direct economic ones -- that restrict the 
utility of such high-purity alcohols.  There's probably no point using it 
outside a cleanroom.  Dust on the glassware will wreck the purity rating 
otherwise.
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Re: [CentOS] died again

2013-12-04 Thread Darr247

My money's still on bulging and 50% or so under (if not ruptured and 99% 
below) capacitance electrolytics.
If not on the motherboard itself, then in the power supply.
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Re: [CentOS] died again